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9946 Topic: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8923
Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 12:02:03

This article suggests Meyer should be reappointed before the RWC. Personally I think that's a mistake...if we don't do well, there has to be an option to move on. But this article does make some valid points:

 

1) A succesful coach like Jake should never have been replaced after winning RWC07....that damaged our rugby and more or less gifted the 2011 RWC to NZ.

 

2) A winning culture is more important than individual selections and HM has established that at the Boks.

 

3) There is an established team, not  selection based on flavour of the day performance

 

4) The Bok jersey should never be easily attained as in Destroyli's regime

 

5) The Boks are now good technical problem solvers....witness the turnaround in our scrumming from the Worlds to the first Welsh tests. We have excellent coaches for defence and scrumming. 

 

 

.....here's the article:

 

Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer has created a winning culture, writes MARK KEOHANE in Business Day newspaper.

The whispers are Meyer will be the first Springbok coach in the professional era to be given successive four-year terms. The official confirmation can’t be made soon enough.

Meyer, as I understand, will be reappointed before next year’s World Cup and it will be reward for what he has built in the last three seasons. His second term will not be subject to the Springboks winning the World Cup.

And it’s about time that game’s administration showed such maturity in the decision-making.

Jake White should have had a second term post the 2007 World Cup success. Administrative agendas and immaturity among the elected officials who serve as provincial presidents meant White had no chance of being reappointed.

He had clashed with the administration, had been critical of Saru president Oregan Hoskins and had made his views very public.

Hoskins and the game’s suited leadership were not even at the Boks’ World Cup hotel celebration on the night the Boks beat England in Paris to win the World Cup.

White, outstanding at the Brumbies and equally impressive at the Sharks in this season’s Super Rugby, will have no chance of coaching the Springboks while Hoskins is still involved. But hopefully he will not be lost to South African rugby and he will continue with the Sharks in 2015 and may even find comfort in the challenge of the Stormers post 2015.

White has always stated he wants to coach the Springboks again. He has also said he wants to coach internationally, but the options are limited. He was promised the Wallabies job but never given it and the All Blacks will not appoint a foreigner.

White’s only hope would be England should Stuart Lancaster lose favour and be axed. I say this because White has said he would only want to coach a country he believed had the capability to win a World Cup.

For now he remains in South Africa and his contribution at the Sharks has been good for South African rugby and has been to the benefit of Meyer, whose tenure has been one of consistency, clarity, integrity and delivery.

The All Blacks remain the one team Meyer’s Springboks have yet to beat, but two of the four defeats could have been Bok victories. Ironically, both times the Boks were in a position to win were in New Zealand and the All Blacks produced two stunning performances to beat the Boks at Soccer City and at Ellis Park.

The win against the All Blacks will come because there is very little to choose between the two sides. Both are quality sides and Meyer has found the consistency in success that has been the sole domain of the All Blacks.

Meyer, on his appointment, said his style of rugby would be ‘winning rugby’. He said the best team, where possible, would play and that he did not believe in gifting the Bok jersey in the name of experimentation and a four-year World Cup cycle.

He said that any one of four teams could win the World Cup, possibly even five, and that the rugby public were owed week in and week out performances; not the promise of one big one at the World Cup.

Meyer spoke of a winning culture and a winning habit. He spoke of the privilege of playing for South Africa and he wanted every South African player to be eligible, regardless of where the player was based. Meyer felt that the best should play and that Test rugby was a representation of selecting the best player in that position.

He said if the team started winning consistently it would mean they went to a World Cup with belief and conviction and not just hope.

Amen brother.

He also stated that the Springboks, like the All Blacks, should be winning 75-80% of their Test matches. So far he’s achieved in every sense.

There is integrity in the jersey, there is integrity in the selection and there is a winning culture and a winning habit.

The Boks are in good shape. Meyer has built depth in the squad and he has rewarded local and foreign-based players who have excelled. He has blooded a team of youngsters and recalled a team of World Cup-winning veterans.

His team plays good and intelligent rugby and technically the Boks have improved at the breakdown and still need to improve with their line-kicking and tactical-kicking game.

But they play impressive rugby, just as the Bulls did when they dominated Super Rugby.

Bok rugby has never been healthier and the reward for Meyer should be that Saru’s decision-makers make his reappointment official sooner rather than later.

Photo: Chris Ricco/BackpagePix


Denny

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1760
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 12:19:00
 I guess that wipes Dave's chances of coaching the Boks.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13162
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 12:36:53
 Mozart

There are arguments in favour of what you said - but there is one equally important counter argument - it should not be more difficult to get out of the Springbok team than to get into it.

Retaining players in an "established squad without meeting performance  requirements is worse than " There is an established team, not  selection based on flavour of the day performance."   Players cannot be retained in the team purely based on experience and reputation without meeting performance requirements. 

That remains a problem that has lost more World Cups than anything else.  The idea to stick to players because they won the WC - in other words selection based on reputation, is a major problem.   Without minor exceptions the Springboks - after showing signs of a serious downturn in performances of players in 2010 - tried to use most of the players winning the WC in 2007 in the 2011 WC campaign - as expected the campaign flopped badly.

If there is one criticism of Meyer that raises eyebrows - it is  tendency to run back to the players coached by him in the period 2004 to 2009, as well as a reluctance n his part to dispose of non-performers.   He still calls up players like Kirchner,  Morne Steyn, Steenkamp.  Bakkies Botha and Matfield - even though it is clear they are not really meeting present performance requirements anymore.

There are obvious positives as well as negatives in his selections.   Meyer  would never have selected players like Le Roux, Pollard and Etzebeth without being forced by external cir[removed]stances (injuries, contract obligation of club players, etc) to select those players.    My contention is that there should be  a balance between -

*   Objective assessment of performances of existing team members; and
*   Similar assessment of sustained performance over a period of time by potential candidates for selection - not one-match wonders.

A team should never become a "closed shop".  If that happens the performances ultimately stagnate and the team goes backwards.           
    


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8923
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 12:42:41

I'll post this again OOM, you aren't getting the message.....RWC winners are 27 to 28 years old. 

 

  1. International»
  2. England

Graphic: average age and caps of Rugby World Cup winning teams and how England might compare in 2015

A graphic that shows the average age and total caps of previous World Cup winners and how a prospective England XV might compare when they host the next World Cup, were they to play the expected number of Tests between now and 2015.

Following the shambles of England's World Cup failure in New Zealand earlier this year, plans are in motion to focus on 2015, when the tournament will be hosted on these shores.

Studying the last four World Cup winners the RFU calculated average team ages of 27, 28, 27 and 28. The number of caps held by Australia (1999), England (2003), South Africa (2007) and New Zealand (2011) was 622, 638, 668 and 709 for Graham Henry’s All Blacks, the most experienced of the quartet.

.


Just_win

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6255
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 12:55:57
Based on Meyer's results & plans no one can deny the Boks deserve their no. 2 world rankings :angel: Congrats & we wish you continued success. 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9512
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 13:38:41

In Gavin Rich's book it states that Meyer never wanted the Bok job in the first place and it took some convincing for him to take the job. He states that he would not go beyond the RWC. He said that the pressures placed on his boys was the main reason he did not want to continue the job.

 

 

Apparently his kids get attacked on social media sites regardless of whether the Boks do well or badly. 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12222
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 13:46:44
Moz one must not be simpistic here. Wee matfiled a hopeles case at the best of times will be 38.In theory you could ahve awhole lot of geriatrics and a number of 21 yera old and you may average 27/28

There really needs to be only two things happening. First merit selections and secondly developing your back ups all the time.

The acid test is looming. However when assessing Meyer one will need to also consider the injuries, skills exhibited and cohesion and will to win.

The Boks have been burgled out of a large number of test when playing the abs and one sincerely hopes this will stop. Also that we will not be derailed by quotas.



clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13162
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 13:49:17
 Mozart

the prime performance age of rugby players are between 24 and 29 years of age.  The team you support and want to see in the 2015 WC will be an average age of circa 31 years old.   Get the message?   It just cannot work - and will fail.      


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 16:15:53
 When all is said and done, there can be seen a clear evolution of the team over the course of his tenure. He had to rebuild the Bok pack and only used a simple gameplan until that was done. Then he sorted out the breakdown and started to give the Boks more bite on attack. With the seniors our defence and set-pieces are considerably bolstered (our restarts and lineouts last year were very poor, at best equal to New Zealand, but more often than not bettered). The team just gets better and better. Only Meyer and Jake can boast to have evolved the team. He deserves to retain the position regardless of the result at the World Cup. Certainly no-one else in South Africa will do a better job (you are kidding yourself if you think Jake will ever coach the Boks again!).


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 16:18:17
Michael, a male human doesn't reach physical maturity until 27. 27 to 33 is the optimum age of a rugby player, certainly in terms of experience and physical development. Just accept, a team of children has never, and will never succeed. It's be tried before and been exposed.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9512
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 16:42:56

Sun stop speaking complete and utter [removed].

 

The likes of Bakkies, Fourie, Carter, Nonu and Conrad Smith are nowhere near as good as they were 5 years ago. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13162
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 17:06:17
 Dimmer Sun

Where did you get tripe from?  There is no way that a rugby player over 30 years of age does not start going down insofar as performance is concerned.  De Villiers himself said that he has to train twice as much as he did at the age of 29 - merely to maintain the level of performance when he was 29.

There is not a single code of sport - bar perhaps weightlifting and shooting where age is not a factor.

Look at the stats of McCaw at present and compare that with as little as four years ago and you will find all the evidence that A girl mentioned about the older rugby players.    It is particularly evident in the performances of Bakkies Botha and Jacque Fourie.   The latter was never a speedster - but he is now cart horse pace.

   





sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5868
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 17:58:05

1) A succesful coach like Jake should never have been replaced after winning RWC07....that damaged our rugby and more or less gifted the 2011 RWC to NZ.

FACT - jake white never reapplied for the Boks job when he more then had ample opportunity to do so.


say what u will, but those are not the actions of someone who wanted the Boks job.

and its why his coaching career was dead until the brumbies finally showed up with a gig.


if he was really that good, why did it take so long for him to get coaching job, i mean around the world is one thing, but within SA it was nothing but a strike.


his martyr act after the RWC bit him in the ass, but the whole world now knows hes a snake.

a snake who shed his brumbies skin for a sharks one, and the sharks will get the same treatment when something better comes along.

 

2) A winning culture is more important than individual selections and HM has established that at the Boks.

winning culture??? o_O

oh thats right Boks have toppled some huge rugby titans since 2013, wioth a total of 15 tests, the likes of,,,

samoa

italy

scotland x 3

argentina x 2

and that latest welsh team in the june test series x 2 (who missed so many of their top players and still it took a penalty try in the last minute to save them)


i cant help but facepalm at this comment, u talk about a winning culture based on tier 2 and the loosest of tier one labeled teams???


mediocrity, look it up.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3379
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 19:00:30

"FACT - jake white never reapplied for the Boks job when he more then had ample opportunity to do so.


say what u will, but those are not the actions of someone who wanted the Boks job.

and its why his coaching career was dead until the brumbies finally showed up with a gig."


Bull[removed]. Once again you are rinsing your mouth over something that you do not know the facts about, and then you have the audacity to call it fact. He was required to submit an application for his job, complete with CV and all. His argument was that they have his CV. He was in their  employ for more than the four years that he was the national coach. Remember that he was the current U/21 coach. Nobody ever discussed any possible extension of his contract with him. There was no law stating that they had to advertise his job again. He, and everybody else, knew that they wanted him out despite Hoskins and co saying in public, on their return from the RWC, that his position was safe. Fact was that, at that stage, the wheels were already set in motion to get rid of him. It was always a political issue, as was  PDV's appoinment,and  if you do not know that, then you are indeed even more ignorant than I thought.

 
"oh thats right Boks have toppled some huge rugby titans since 2013, wioth a total of 15 tests, the likes of,,,

samoa

italy

scotland x 3

argentina x 2"


Yet another effort to  put your precious ABs on some kind of flippin pedestal as  if they are the be all and end all. Don't you think that it is disrespectful towards Samoa, England, etc to pretend that they are [removed]ing useless, because we have also played and beaten them?




Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3800
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 19:11:59
 "1) A succesful coach like Jake should never have been replaced after winning RWC07....that damaged our rugby and more or less gifted the 2011 RWC to NZ.

FACT - jake white never reapplied for the Boks job when he more then had ample opportunity to do so."


I have heard you mention this a few times. 

Jake White was never going to get the job after the World Cup. 

Their were reports dating back to the end of 2005 and during 2006 that Pdivvy was going to get the job as Springbok coach. 

I was not living in South Africa during this time but I heard from people in 2006 that Pdivvy was going to get the job 100%. His job was being advertised while he was at the world cup. Surely it would have been better to start advertising the job after the world cup.


It was allways going to be a non-white coach that got the job at the time- and Meyer should actually have been given the job if Jake White was not going to be coach. 


Jake White got a lot of pressure put on him to select more players of colour, and SARU would criticize him in the media for non doing more for transformation to earn political brownie points.

The Luke Watson Fiasco was just one example Jake White getting beaten up in the media by SARU, who were just looking to promote their own agenda and the expense of their coach. Puke Watson was a good player, but the Boks had so many quality loosies at the time he was not needed.


Even the president of SARFU said at the time in 2008 that non-rugby factors were taking into consideration for the selection of Pdivvy. However SARU would later regret choosing someone who was not good enough to do the job as Pdivvy media skills portrayed him as a clown.


Pdivvy came out with guns blazing that-

1. He was going to change the style of Springbok play to be more attacking

2. That the team would have many more non-whites.


In his first year Pdivvy tried to implement a style of rugby that did not work. He started to understand what pressure was about- because his employers now expected results and not just talk.


In this 2nd year Victor Matfield and John Smit had more influence and the Boks reverted to a forward dominated style of rugby, and only go wide on multi-phase play.


Given that many of these players (Jake Whites young world cup winning team) and Meyers (Bulls) were in their prime- South Africa had a great year in 2009 winning against the Lions and the Tri-nations. 

I can assure you that if Jake White or Meyer had been coach from 2008-2011 the results would have been much better. 

Meyer inherited the Shambles of Pdivvy and has had to rebuilt.


After Pdivvy's first year he started feeling allot of pressure and turned to the senior players in the team. His plan for racial transformation of the Boks went out the window. 

Suddenly a coach who had championed having less whites in the team now had less players of colour in the team than Jake White. 



Jake White's auto-biography explains in more detail about the pressure that SARU put him under.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Black-White-Jake-Story/dp/1770220046


As for Jake White's coaching. 

I reckon that he is a pretty good coach as the Brumbies made the final last year and the Sharks have lead the SuperXV for most of this year. It is hard to argue with results.


Although winning the World cup is a good achievement, the World Cup format is poor. 

Until all of the top teams face each other in the early (non-elimination) rounds- to make for 

seeded knockout round- it is allways going to be the case. 

William Webb is an idiot and we need to move on from his format.


France were not the 2nd best team in the World and they made the final in 2011, 

and England were not the 2nd best team in 2007 and they made the final. 

I dont think either of them were even in the top 5, let alone 2nd in the world


If all of the top teams played each other in the first round, it would make a proper seeding system for the knockout rounds. This would take luck out of the tournament because the top seeded teams would only ever meet at the end of the tournament in the knockout rounds


For example if a team finishes first in round 1 after playing all the top teams, they it would only be possible to ever play the team that finishes in 2nd place in the final. 

Or it would only be possible to play the team that finishes in 4th place in the semi final. 

A format like this is fair and would make for a better tournament.






Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 19:52:49
I disagree with your comment on the World Cup Sharkbok. Taking the 2007 World Cup as an example, Australia and New Zealand were not among the four best teams in the competition! Australia's performance against England one of the more dire of the entire competition. New Zealand were simply bettered. The World Cup is not about reputations, as you essentially assert, but about the poise and consistency to make it through 7 consecutive tests. Fiji ended up playing better than Australia in 2007 and Argentina were in no mood to be beaten without a fight. The World Cup, in an fair environment, is the perfect measure of a team.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8923
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 02, 2014, 21:07:14
By the RWC some of the older guys will have folded their tents. Our average age will be exactly in line with all four previous winners. But while Victor, Jean and company are still our best....and make no mistake, they are our best.....we should play them and win the next game.

So if some of them don't make it, what of the RWC you ask? Well I'm convinced at least 20 of our match 23, perhaps all of our match 23 are already Boks and know the systems. They will all get more international exposure and some like Pollard become starters. Nobody will be expected to perform at the RWC without appropriate experience.

Chaps it's time to admit HM is running a totally professional operation and stop whining.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13162
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 03, 2014, 00:00:50
 There is some serious contradiction in the above standard Mozart set piece.   He says the present match day 23 will win tests in the RC - but they won't.   They will definitely loose against  the AB's and the Wallabies this year. 

The question is why.   Mozart mentioned De Villiers and few will disagree that he is a top player.  He then goes on with the dubious claim of Matfield being the best in SA.  He definitely is not - he is physically not capable of contributing anything to the tight 5 - if people have not seen it in the last three tests - they have missed the whole test.  Have anyone seen him carrying balls effectively in traffic - the answer is NO.  Once when he tried he was brought down by the first defender and conceded a penalty - which was converted.  He had very little or no  effect on diving mauls and in that case he never receives the balls in line outs preceding mauls - because there would then be no forward movement.

However, which match 23 are you talking about?  The one starting in the Welsh tests?   Then we really are in trouble.  We lack a no 123 center - Pietersen is just not the answer.  WE have a seriously defective flyhalf in Morne Steyn.   We have a poor 7 with very little contrbution to loose forward play.   We had a seriously defective lock combination in both tests.   All those selements is going to cost us dearly in the rest of this year - and by next year it will be too late the replace them - since the enw in[removed]bents would have extremely limited experience on test level.

The question of experience is another issue.  We know that Alberts is a dead loss - but his successor needs experience.  How can anyone gain experience without being given the opportunity.

There is no time to be lost by playing deficient -performing players because they are pals of Meyer.  That is the main reason for the inclusion of players like Morne Steyn, Bakkies Botha,  Victor Matfield and Gurthro Steenkamp in the match day 23.         


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8923
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 03, 2014, 00:07:34
Yes we know what you think OOM...now let's move on to fresher, more intelligent perspectives. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13162
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 03, 2014, 00:12:38
 Mozart

Just one question?  When did you ever offer fresher more intelligent perspectives?  Al we read is a slavish concurrence with whatsoever Meyer comes up with and a chronic attack on players you do not like.  And then also the abo[removed]e addiction to players way past their best.  

Why not motivate what you says by facts - not flowery written fiction.     


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8923
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 03, 2014, 01:09:48

You want motivation...okay here it is for the second time:

 

"Studying the last four World Cup winners the RFU calculated average team ages of 27, 28, 27 and 28. The number of caps held by Australia (1999), England (2003), South Africa (2007) and New Zealand (2011) was 622, 638, 668 and 709 for Graham Henry’s All Blacks, the most experienced of the quartet."

 

 

Perhaps you had better odds with flowery language......hahaha. The thing is OOm if I come up with an hypothesis I always provide what you call "motivation".....you just drone on making the same assertions over and over again.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13162
RE: Meyer to be given four more years...before the RWC?
July 03, 2014, 01:37:50
 Mozart

I accept the average ages - but the players you constantly support will mean the average age f the Springboks will be way over 30 years of age - nearly 31 to be exact.  If that does not tell yu that we are wronmg with teh present selections - you must be dilly.   

There is one difference though - virtually all winning teams started building up a twinning team over a period of 51 to 5 to 5 years to build up a winning team.  They do not go in with only players who did not win the previous WC - they brought in new players gibing them ample time to gain experience.  The winning teams leave the teams largely unchanged and then get unstuck in the next WC.

After 2007 there were only minimal changes to our team for the 2011 WC and by 2010 they started to lose matches already - so we were buggered in the 2011 WC campaign, Now you are back to the 2007 campaign players thinking they would be better in 2015.    They definitely will not be.

In any event - thanks for the article - but your conclusions are not applied to our present team - that you badly wants to represent us in 2015.   


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