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9929 Topic: Youth development in springbok team and selections
JeromeV

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 259
Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 01, 2014, 11:38:51

The previous match vs Scotland clearly indicated that younger players deserved a chance to prove themselves that they can perform at a higher level and they did just that. De Jager, Marcell Coetzee, Serfontein and Pollard played superb rugby. De Jager undoubtedly stood out the most and really should've start in the other 3 previous games. Due to Flip van der Merwe being selected vs wales showed De Jager wasn't the real option at the time which was a problem. It is beyond me that Flip van der Merwe was selected in the first place, he was sent off for tackling a player in the air which left the team outnumbered and almost cost them the game vs wales, I can also recall him deliberately punching Paddy Ryan that got him suspended for 3 weeks in the super 15. I hope De Jager gets more opportunities than Flip van der Merwe, De Jager and Etzebeth is the real lock combination which will be great in the future.


One of the frequently asked questions so far was "Are the young players going to be selected in the Rugby Championship and can they continue playing as well against the all blacks?" My initial answer to that question is yes they can play as well against the nz all blacks, the problem that is placed in the minds of the springboks coaching management is that experience is more important than international youth development, so based from that mindset i don't believe they will start against the all blacks but may get little game time. The logical option that i would suggest is to put older players such as Matfeild, Bakkies and Burger on the bench and the young players starting because theres no doubt that they are past their prime and not as good as they were 7 years ago. The Springbok coaches tend to only realise the faults in the team after world cup loses, I've always stated its about realising the problematic faults before the world cup, that's the most important. Its disappointing because i can already see the faults. If in fact some aspects of play in the team are changed and more young players get the more opportunities it would be more better team overall and definitely a better chance of winning the world cup 2015.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 01, 2014, 13:14:20

Jerome, we have greater depth in youthful talent than ever before - but sadly we have an ignorant conservative coach who has decided to invest in a bunch of geriatrics and is stupid enough to think that these old farts will win us the RC and WC next year.

 

The likes of Matfield, Bakkies and Schalk should not be anywhere near the squad given the fact that we have far better youngsters


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 01, 2014, 13:33:35
 Jerome

Welome to th site.   Your reasoning is very sound on the issue of youth development.  The probklm is that Meyer is verys et on experience and that actual performances do not count for much with him.

I am not in favour of chucking out performing older players - I am in favour of being objective in performance assessment of all players and getiing rid of non-performers irrespectiive of their age.   The problem is that objective assessment is not the real objective of our rugby writers - they use hype to deal with some players they think the public likes - because that will sell their papers.

The other problem is that sme people assess players on one aspect of the game and forget all others - Morne is such a good kicker at goal -  Matfield is so good in line outs etc - but then refuse to look at what the players produce otherwise.    Even if it is pointed out that thinks really are problematic  the counter-arguments normally ends up in personal attacks on this site.

You are not going to be too popular with some site members because of this thread - so prepare for a total onslaught by the "geriatrics brigade"

:D:D:D
  


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 01, 2014, 13:54:23

Sadly, there was no youthful development in the Bok side - clueless Meyer was forced to play the younger players given his hand was forced with the non availability of foreign based players.

 

The fact that the young players showed the old farts up will not have registered with our esteemed coach 


JeromeV

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 259
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 01, 2014, 17:59:09
@A girl
You replied in your first post that "We have greater depth in youthful talent than ever before." That is true but the concern is that we are not taking enough advantage of that due to certain players that are in the starting 15 that are old. The point that needs to be addressed is that young players don't get much of a opportunity to develop in the springbok team which is unfortunate. I am not saying that young players don't get the opportunity at all, that's not the direction where im heading in this topic but there are a number of young players that certainly deserve to be in the springbok team rather than the old Matfeild, Bakkies, Burger and a few others. It doesn't matter whether or not they can still perform at a decent standard of rugby or not, its not going to rejuvenate that team forward towards the world cup. The springboks are better off without them starting, they haven't been as impressive as others and we are not looking at decent performances. The youth is the real way forward and answer to springbok rugby, its just about being aware of the talent and getting them involved at the international springbok level. We have the potential to the win the world cup through our youth talent, the previous match showed that.


@Clevermike
Thanks for the compliment, where is this "Geriatrics Brigade" that you speak of and who are they? I would be interested in hearing their reasoning why the older players should remain in the team. They obviously do not understand the potential of the youth and the value of having the talented youth in our circle. The likes of Pollard, Serfontein, De Jager, De Allende, Kolbe, Carr and many others are the real deal.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 01, 2014, 18:26:55
 Jerome

The brigasde is made up of Mozart. Ceradyne. Sun Tzu and a few others.  Look out for them.:D:D:D  


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 01, 2014, 18:29:56
 NZ currently have a total squad of 33 players. Combined age of 888 years. Average age 26.9 years. Total caps 1,200. Average caps per player 36.44.

SA have a current squad of 51 players. Combined age of 1,321 years. Average age 25.9 years. Total caps 1,592. Average caps per player 31.22.


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 01, 2014, 19:35:25
 Of all the new players post 2011 only Willie, Lood, Pollard, Duane and Hendricks look the part, though Eben has been very good, his reputation is bigger than his game and only Willie and Duane are proven against the best. Less time scowling might lead to greater productivity like Lood and Flip. Meyer has given too many youngsters too much time to prove nothing. This argument of throwing away older players is embarrassing, especially given that Meyer only went looking for them because the kids let him down! Sillyness abounds.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 00:32:14
 Which kids let Meyer down?    He went hunting for players like Bakkies Botha and Gurthro Steenkamp not long after the Bulls "kids" like Werner Kruger without looking at any other options locally.   Bakkies he brought in ahead of Du Toit.    That is the type of idiocy that has taken hold in the Springbok squad.   

There was no performance requirements in cases like the above - so what must one assume is going on.   He hangs onto Morne Steyn like glue - despite the fact that Morne is not a flyhalf of intentional standing at all.       And nopw <atfield - the physical -deficienmt player producing nothing other than line outs (which any other reasonable lock would produce) and for the rest produces nothing of substance for the Springbok Tight 5.

One can go on and on about Meyer's absolute love for teh "gerriatrics - without any regard to comprehensive performance needs. 


Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1240
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 00:57:57
 "though Eben has been very good, his reputation is bigger than his game and only Willie and Duane are proven against the best." 

This is why you're opinion is disregarded Sun... Etzebeth is indisputably the best lock in the world.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3724
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 01:30:14
The Springbok team is not about youth development, it is about selecting the best players that are available- not age. 

The old international tours were good for bringing the young players through the systems playing regional sides during the week. This allowed for bigger touring squads and players getting exposure without cheapening Bok caps with one season wonders, or every new kid with potential.



clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 01:44:52
 Shezza

If there is one person whose opinion on rugby players are totally warped it is the Dim Sub.  He does not rate players like Folau and Etzebeth as top players - but he rates Morne Steyn (as the best flyhalf we had since 1992.  Whenever he says a SA  player does not meet requirements bear in mind he normally is serious threat for selection aheaqd of his favoured (Blue Bulls) player.  

That really is weird - but what is more laughable is his interpretation of what happened on the field of play.   A classic is that he claims Morne Steyn did not miss a tavkle in the Ellis Park test - and that everyone else is to blame - dear Morne is entirely blameless.   

It really is funny - he is the absolute opposite of what reality really is.  


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8781
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 04:41:33
 Heavens we now have dueling Goosen avatars, while Pollard is the future Bok 10.... hehehe....nothing puts this string in better perspective.  But all this bilge about young players not getting a chance is laughable. I post this for a second time.

Willie...core team member
Mvovo...dropped for performance
Taute....dropped for performance
JJ ....dropped for performance
Serf...playing behind legend JdV
Jantjies...dropped for performance
Goosen...fell away when injured
Van Zyl...dropped, not starting for the Bools
Malherbe...injured
Coenie .carefully reintroduced after injury
Nyakane....dropped for ill discipline
Adriaanse..dropped....playing off the bench for the Sharks
Etzebeth....core team member....injured
P S du Toit ...injured
Lood... playing halves off the bench
Coetzee ...dropped for performance
Arno Botha...injured.

So 17 youngsters have been given test opportunities. Two are core team members. Another 5 are in the current team either as starters or off the bench. Four are currently injured. Seven have been dropped for performance reasons.

So HM cast a wide net, the guys who have become core players are few ...but for two reasons. Many players have suffered serious injuries and many players have failed, which is probably not unusual.

In fact HM has been very willing to include new players and has done so responsibly. Which player on the list who is not currently injured should be starting for the Boks. And if not one of these guys, what makes us think the next flavour of the day will get the job done?



JeromeV

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 259
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 05:30:55

Sun-Tzu
You are wrong, its not only Willie Le Roux, Lood, Pollard, Duane and Eben that look part like you stated. If you [removed]ysis correctly you'd find that there are other young players that have proven themselves also, Serfontein and Marcell Coetzee for example, Were those kids a let down like you say? No they were not and Meyer didn't go looking for the older players because the younger players were a let down like you stated, basically its because its only the experience of the older players and the captaincy abilities that they have which is why they were selected into the team, its not the let down of the youth. Thats the truth. You are way off the mark here.  


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 887
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 08:44:48
 Good intelligent post Jerome...great to hear objective and positive criticism and praise...so sick of negative, personal and childish and derogative comments..

Obvious a player is selected on his merits whether he is young and talented or experienced and older but there is a balance and there is a time to call it quits. Some players are old and spent earlier than others. Morne Steyn has passed it...not a bad player, useful in the past but no fireworks ever...put this way nothing to get excited about ever...yes he did his job but some of us want more out of rugby than just going through the motions. Matfield was outstanding in his day several years ago, so was Bakkies and even Schalk is pushing it too far but even this is not really the major issue.

The major issue is the future and the cost of loosing talent or inhibiting and [removed]ing talent in the medium to longer term....Serfontein and Marcel Coetzee quite corectly have proven themselves and there is a whole host of others as well but it should be balanced with experienced players as well...like Bissie, Tendai,Habana,Adriaan Strauss who I do not consider old in this context...plenty of young and outstanding good locks, Eben,PSTD,Lood and even Anton Bresler and Lewies and we certainly are not short of loosies as well including Willem Alberts who like Jannie Du Plessis has to rested...overplayed...at least that's what I surmise. Vermeulen is a star.
I'm very happy with Pollard and there is obcourse Pat Lambie, Swiel as well...not so sure about Goosen...too injury prone sadly but a great rugby brain. Don't think JP is spent yet but prefer to play him in his natural position but I do believe he can be shifted to centre as and when required...very happy with Willie Le Roux and Mvovo and Hendriks looks positive. As for scrummies, not unhappy with Du Preez but would love to see Reinach and Rory Kockott come on board...in fact Kockott imo is the best on offer...would love to see Lambie and/or Pollard combine with a scrummie like Rory.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 09:39:21
 "Some players are old and spent earlier than others. Morne Steyn has passed it...not a bad player, useful in the past but no fireworks ever...put this way nothing to get excited about ever...yes he did his job but some of us want more out of rugby than just going through the motions. "


This constant [removed]ing and moaning about Morne Steyn is a joke. Which other flyhalf has been available to do the job better than Steyn.

Goosen? Nope. Made of glass and how good  is he really? Go check the recent test that he scored a try in. Heck, I cannot even remember which one it was. For the time that he was on, he was doing nothing but go through the motions, and  that was that. Go check. I did. I posted an account of what he did elsewhere. He then went through a gap the size of a barn door to score a try. A certain old friend of mine reckoned that that was something that Morne would never have been able to do. If you think that the try was anything special, I can show you clips where Morne scored exactly the same type of try against the All Blacks.

Lambie? Broken...... again.

Jantjies? WTF is Jantjies?

Catrakilis? Even the Stormers cannot remember who he is.

Boshoff? He just "arrived" on the scene and is in the running.

Pollard. Need I say anything? His involvement with the Baby Boks, rather than getting into the test side right away was 100% the correct way to handle his test career.

Let me tell you. Had you been in Meyer's shoes, you would  have relied on Morne as well. Had you done anything else, the chances are probably 99% that you would have stuffed up.





Devil's Advocate

Status: Squad member
Posts: 392
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 09:50:41

"Let me tell you. Had you been in Meyer's shoes, you would have relied on Morne as well. Had you done anything else, the chances are probably 99% that you would have stuffed up."

 

Safe[removed] would never admit that though.... ever

 

But if his career as a coach were on the line, he would have done exactly the same.

 

He is just too arrogant, egotistical or ignorant to admit it 


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 887
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 10:45:46
 There's a time for everything but it's now the time (albeit a little late but nevertheless better late than never) to move on into the future...Lambie will be back, forget about 'Silkless Hands', the Cat is not spent either, Boshoff shows huge promise, not sure if Goosen will get over being injury prone, Pollard really is impressive, Swiel shows huge potential and that's not all...should never sacrifice so much for one man who say go now as he stands in the way.

I don't want to see him in the WC please, and if I see Matfield and Bakkies, I'll shout and support the AB's, Les Bleus and Pumas...lolz...no I'm not joking.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 11:51:48


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 711
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 10:45:46
 There's a time for everything but it's now the time (albeit a little late but nevertheless better late than never) to move on into the future...Lambie will be back, forget about 'Silkless Hands', the Cat is not spent either, Boshoff shows huge promise, not sure if Goosen will get over being injury prone, Pollard really is impressive, Swiel shows huge potential and that's not all...should never sacrifice so much for one man who say go now as he stands in the way.

I don't want to see him in the WC please, and if I see Matfield and Bakkies, I'll shout and support the AB's, Les Bleus and Pumas...lolz...no I'm not joking.

OK, so  the time is now. This is what Meyer should have done. [removed] Morne Steyn. Played Goosen, and when he got injured tell him to stop acting and get back on the fiield. Or put Boshoff on and stick Goosen on the bench. In the meantime send and SOS to Dawie Theron to pull Pollard out of the Baby Bok squad immediately

Damn, I am glad HM is the coach  and not you bunch of clowns. And if you decide not to support the Boks, then  so be it. Did you support the Boks in 2008-11, when we were told that Earl Rose was the Tiger Woods of rugby and that the B & I L should go wear tutus after Schalk's eye-gouging stunt? I did. I did not like what Twakkies was doing but I never supported the opposition, and I sure as hell never wished for the Boks to lose a test.



mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8781
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 12:34:05

Damn right Vlag....this petulant thing where fans wont support the team because they don't agree with the selections amounts to throwing toys out of the cot. And the statements that are made without support are a bit of a joke. So now Coetzee has proven himself? How? As what?

 

Look at his stats against the very weak Scots....a team that would not make the top 6 in the S15. Calling this a "higher level" is inaccurate:

 

 He ran 14 times for 26 metes. In those 14 runs he managed two offloads....but coughed up the ball twice....and beat only one tackle. That's effective running?

 

The tackling stats are good, but deceptive....a bunch of routine phase tackles.

 

So what has changed in this player's game since he had to be replaced by Louw two seasons ago? The answer....nothing. He is the same effort player, who can't really carry the ball because he cant break tackles.....and he is all but useless at fetching.....Bismarck and Vermeulen are much better. So what is he? An opensider or a blindsider or neither?

 

FCoetzee2/1100/5/14260122 11/00/010/0


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 12:58:08
 Mozaqrt

Your problem remains your misplaced dislike of some players and your addiction to others.   Your favourites could bugger up badly and the praise songs will remain in place.

There is nothing negative about the performance of Coetzee on Saturday - any effort to find imaginary deficiencies with the stats quoted above is silly and can only be based on prejudice.

The above is a beaut compared to the stats regularly produced by one f your favourite players - Alberts.   You usage os stats are always highly suspect - since you refuse to look at some players you favour  when there stats indicates sub-par performances.  

Anyway any reasonable person would still select Louw - with Coetzee as the back up.

Back to the following comments:-

".a team that would not make the top 6 in the S15. Calling this a "higher level" is inaccurate:"

Was the so-called World team not in the same category as you now place the Scottish team in?   Yet your praise singing of players who played against that team was endless - you could not stop raving about Bakkies Botha, Matfield and Morne Steyn after that match.  

Nice try - bit your constant belittling of players you do not like is sickening.
 

   


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 13:22:16

Jerome, we think alike. The investment in washed up has beens is pathetic on every level.

 

 

Firstly these old players are well passed their prime and our ignorant coach is too stupid to realise this. Its clear for all to see that players like Steenkamp, Bakkies, Matfield, Pienaar and Fourie are shadows of their former selves. Does this fool honestly believe that these players are still up to test rugby and good enough to challenge the top side who have players in their prime representing them.

 

 

Secondly, what message does it send out to our younger players that washed up has beens have been recalled at their expense - I tell you what the consequences are......young players are leaving disillusioned with the Bok set-up. In the last few weeks we have lost quality youngsters like Sadie, v/d Walt, Willemse, Peet Marais, Bresler and Herbst to overseas clubs.

 

 

How anyone can find favour in the way Meyer is directing our Boks is beyond me. It will be interesting to see what this ignorant fool does after his side of geriatrics lose all their tests to Oz and NZ in a few months time. Poor old Meyer will be beside himself and the majority of the supporters will be saying we told you so


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 13:25:24

Devil twat, don't insult me by saying that I would have relied on Morne. One certainty is that Morne would not have smelt a Bok squad of 60 under me.

 

 

I could never select such an ordinary rugby player who happens to have a good boot - would be impossible. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 13:35:58
 Mozart

Tou missed out on a lot of Bulls player Meyer utilized in 2012 - eg Greyling and Werner Kruger among others.   They were selected because Meyer was "familiar" with them - but for no other reason.  

Most f you categories are no doubt correct as well - although your cdategorzation of De Jager is flawed and of Coetzee BS.  Coetzee never was "dropped for performance - he always was in the Squad and often enough on the bench.   De Jager came into the squad this year - was put on the bench in teh first Welsh test and out-performed both Bakkies Botha and Matfield extensively.  Meyer decided to put him on the bench for the second test and he really got virtually no playing time.   He played the full 80 minutes in his third test and outplayed Matfield by a mile.   So your description of De Jager - an obvious effort to belittle his achievements - is wrong and misleading.  .            


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 16:26:39
Why must the Bok coach develop young talent. The national team is not where development happens. That stupid thinking tells you everything about the critics. Had they any brain matter or diginity they would be too ashamed to show themselves after all the failed selection predictions (Lambie, Goosen, Coetzee, Pienaar, Serfontein, JJ, Taute, Kruger to name but a few). When there isn't a single shred of evidence to support a claim, it's time to abandon that ship, or be drowned in a sea of egg.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 17:13:56
 Sun Tzu

I have never once see a statement which relates to the "development of young talent" by Meyer.  The issue is to that the coach much better utilize the younger talent available to him and not ignore it.  

Where the wheels come off and the team is weakened is where Meyer ignore both player deficiencies in existing Springboks and refuse to look at alternatives which would improve the team. 

Player performances is important - if that was the key players like the one-dim,entional and robotic Morne Steyn should have been dropped years ago.  


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 20:00:59
He dropped JJ to shore up our defence. He dropped Bekker and Kruger to shore up our set pieces. He dropped Taute for form issues. He dropped Lambie for not being good enough. He demoted Pienaar for not being good enough. He has given youngsters plenty of chances and the only successes he has retained; namely Eben, Hendricks, Willie -  Pollard and Lood look look a good bet to be added to that list. All the players you demand be selected have mostly been a spectacular disaster. you essentially expect a tea of 21-23 year olds to win a World Cup. That's the most ridiculous expectation I have ever heard in my life, since your previous offings that is.


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 20:03:26
Ceradyne, they backed Goosen in spite of him being a key figure in two Bok losses of 2012. It's not about what he does, it's that they hate Morné. That's not a supporter in my opinion, something worthy of harsher language than I wish provide.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 20:40:32
 Apart from the hate for Morne, it is also about not having the balls to admit that he is not half as useless as they thought he is.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8781
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 21:16:49
Morne is a fine flyhalf, general, goal kicker, distributor....he is not a great runner. But which flyhalf in world rugby has won big tests in the last 5 years via running prowess. Well I guess there is Barrett, but look who he ran over....JJ. Not even Cooper, the second coming of running fly halves, has achieved anything on the run. 


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 887
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 22:12:58
 . Did you support the Boks in 2008-11, when we were told that Earl Rose was the Tiger Woods of rugby and that the B & I L should go wear tutus after Schalk's eye-gouging stunt?

Now we're onto real horse[removed]...complete nonsense...pearl= Tiger Woods..what drugs are you taking pal...I'm not one for derogatory statements but this is total rubbish.

OK Seb calm down 'who is outa his mind' but this is really stupid...emotional crap.

So ridiculous not worth an intelligent answer.

Maybe the fans in Valkenberg thought Pearl was Tiger Woods of rugby...one definitely flew over the rest or over the cuckoos nest.

Lolz


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 887
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 22:26:56
 Mozart, I have respect for you but this Morne Steyn issue is not a vendetta...I do agree he once played a part...effectively also I agree but it's a learning curve ...we fans and spectators want to see a bit of flash and sparkle in our rugby...Morne did his job but now is a time for more exciting things...Pollard, Lambie, Swiel, Boshoff are not going to be sacrificed because of one stereotype mindset that appears delusionary for an end result and sacrifice our integrity for ongoing progressive and more entertaining rugby that we can be proud of.

Let up..it's long overdue for the time to move on and change.

Peace Bru.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 22:57:02

sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 714
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 22:12:58
 . Did you support the Boks in 2008-11, when we were told that Earl Rose was the Tiger Woods of rugby and that the B & I L should go wear tutus after Schalk's eye-gouging stunt?

Now we're onto real horse[removed]...complete nonsense...pearl= Tiger Woods..what drugs are you taking pal...I'm not one for derogatory statements but this is total rubbish.

OK Seb calm down 'who is outa his mind' but this is really stupid...emotional crap.

So ridiculous not worth an intelligent answer.

Maybe the fans in Valkenberg thought Pearl was Tiger Woods of rugby...one definitely flew over the rest or over the cuckoos nest.

Lolz
 
Ahh, so you agree that it is bull[removed]. That is exactly why I quoted it. It wasn't me who said that. It was the previous national coach, yet nobody threatened to support the All Blacks or whoever.

He was also the doos who said that those who were pissed off at Schalk should rather get themselves some tutus and go watch ballet. Still nobody threatened to support the All Blacks.

That is the point that I was trying to make.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 23:39:23
 Mozart

There is an artcle which counter you completely - lets [removed]yze your latest statement.

"Morne is a fine flyhalf, general, goal kicker, distributor....he is not a great runner. But which flyhalf in world rugby has won big tests in the last 5 years via running prowess. Well I guess there is Barrett, but look who he ran over....JJ. Not even Cooper, the second coming of running fly halves, has achieved anything on the run." 

First of all Morne is a dubious flyhalf - because he cannot read the game properly and effectively deal with situations.   He is never a general - he is too robotic and one-dimensional foor that.  Standing dead still when receiving the ball is not an element o a general - neither does it provide benefits from distribution.    Fact is Morne never creates space for other players and his standing operation put recipients on the back foot even before they receive tha ball.   .  

The second issue good flyhalfs are not necessarily as you call it "running" flyhalfs.   They are creative flyhalfs.  If you missed it when you look at the try scored by Willie on Saturday - did you not notice something?  Pollard was the real initiator of the try - he carried the ball drew in two defenders and passed it at exactly the right time.   Would that try have been scored with Morne at flyhalf?   Never.   

What kills the Bok backline is a stationary and ineffective flyhalf like Morne Steyn.   It is weird that you of all people cannot see what is wrong with Morne at flyhalf - the coach of Strade Francais saw it within less than a month and despite his ability to kick at goal  he put him on the bench.   

What is evident is that we need a flyhalf - not a player whose only value is kicking at goal and whose contribution otherwise is seriously defective.   

  


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 887
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 23:42:12
No I realised that Ceradine...sometimes we are too quick to imply stupidy to another poster but that was realised after my following comments.

IMO most guys are sincere in what they express but I am sick and tired of the Morne rant. I think it's time for him, a great servant of SA rugby to bow out and let the younger players through...it's time to be very honest...it must be hard when you have been the blue-eyed boy but a man's greatest accolades also lies with his honesty and kicks the old man outa the way. The merit of sport does not only lie with self, but with acknowledgement of other players that are factually younger than you and have huge talent so it is with grace that a mentor allows the worthy up and coming through. It must be hard especially when your coach encourages your belief in yourself but the mentor must also take a step down and put his interests in the shorter term aside for the greater good of the future of rugby. There is always a cost to this but a sacrifice for the greater end is what is expected from great coaches.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 02:01:19
 "The merit of sport does not only lie with self, but with acknowledgement of other players that are factually younger than you and have huge talent so it is with grace that a mentor allows the worthy up and coming through."

What about this:

Rory.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2391
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 02, 2014, 09:39:21
 "Some players are old and spent earlier than others. Morne Steyn has passed it...not a bad player, useful in the past but no fireworks ever...put this way nothing to get excited about ever...yes he did his job but some of us want more out of rugby than just going through the motions. "


This constant [removed]ing and moaning about Morne Steyn is a joke. Which other flyhalf has been available to do the job better than Steyn.

Goosen? Nope. Made of glass and how good  is he really? Go check the recent test that he scored a try in. Heck, I cannot even remember which one it was. For the time that he was on, he was doing nothing but go through the motions, and  that was that. Go check. I did. I posted an account of what he did elsewhere. He then went through a gap the size of a barn door to score a try. A certain old friend of mine reckoned that that was something that Morne would never have been able to do. If you think that the try was anything special, I can show you clips where Morne scored exactly the same type of try against the All Blacks.

Lambie? Broken...... again.

Jantjies? WTF is Jantjies?

Catrakilis? Even the Stormers cannot remember who he is.

Boshoff? He just "arrived" on the scene and is in the running.

Pollard. Need I say anything? His involvement with the Baby Boks, rather than getting into the test side right away was 100% the correct way to handle his test career.

Let me tell you. Had you been in Meyer's shoes, you would  have relied on Morne as well. Had you done anything else, the chances are probably 99% that you would have stuffed up.




clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 02:19:39
 Dof Doos

Lambie was available for all tests since 2012 and was only injured this year and missed three tests.  Goosen was out with an injury.

They could have played Borshoff in the latest three tests ahead of th Stade Francais Reject.   Morne was cancelled out in the 1st Welsh test by the brilliance of Le Roux - and was a real flop in the 2nd one.  

Time for Morne to go and warm the Stade Francais bench permanently.



mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8781
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 05:55:49
Seb I have no problem moving on from Morne if there are better alternatives. Pollard will likely be a better option at some point...but believe me there will be bumps along the way. But Lambie...this guy flopped at 10 with the Sharks last year....they played better when he was moved to 12. Boshoff I have no issue with....but he is a Morne clone. A bit more physical, but no runner....I also don't think he distributes as well as Morne.


HM has tried Goosen and Jantjies....with limited success. He has now given Pollard his chance. But Morne remains the in[removed]bent until Pollard is fully ready.


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 887
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 06:45:28
 Well I agree on Pollard but who doesn't...he certainly has the start in my book...could be what SA has needed for a very long time...imagine the Boks with their own 'Dan Carter' or 'Jonny Wilkinson' albeit a long and optimistic prophecy.

Having said that I'm also a Lambie fan...I don't believe what others say and I still I have faith in him...and so do others that know him well. Despite his genteel looks he is a strong and tough character...I believe there are better days days ahead of him...adversity has come to him but all adversity is for a man of this character is the university of better developement...he simply won't give up and lie down...humble as he is there burns a fire within him, mark my words and talk about in a few more years. I sincerely believe I'm not wrong. Anyway each man to his own opinion...I respect that.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 09:51:45

Geez talk about narrow minded and conservative. How the hell could any rugby follower conclude that Morne is the in[removed]bent until someone better comes along? [removed] me!!

 

 

Equally how on earth do you conclude that Goosen has been tried with limited success - what utter rubbish.

 

 

It does not take a rugby follower to conclude that with extended runs any of Goosen, Boshoff, Pollard and Lambie would be far better options than Morne - its purely down to rugby ability.......most 10's out there are just better rugby players than Morne is......if you cant see that you must be thick.

 

 

This quote sums it up....

'Morne, from first receiver, cannot attack the advantage line with speed and guile, as was witnessed last Saturday when Handre Pollard created a try from a line out.

Immediately after the try was scored I asked myself if we would have scored if it was Morne instead of Pollard. The answer is a resounding no. Morne is too slow and stands too deep for an international first-five.. surely by now Meyer must realise Morne will never win a game against the All Blacks in a Springboks jumper, unless it’s behind a Sony Playstation'

Sadly there is very little our conservative coach does realise

 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 10:27:59
 "This quote sums it up....

'Morne, from first receiver, cannot attack the advantage line with speed and guile, as was witnessed last Saturday when Handre Pollard created a try from a line out.

Immediately after the try was scored I asked myself if we would have scored if it was Morne instead of Pollard. The answer is a resounding no. Morne is too slow and stands too deep for an international first-five.. surely by now Meyer must realise Morne will never win a game against the All Blacks in a Springboks jumper, unless it’s behind a Sony Playstation'

Sadly there is very little our conservative coach does realise"

He can, and he has proven it. I have posted a clip, with a number of examples, where he has done it before. So to say that he cannot do it, is just not true. In your own words:

......if you cant see that you must be thick.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 10:53:08
Oh what a [removed]ing joke, would that be his highlights package over the last 10 years which shows [removed] all - you are just a [removed]ing stupid conservative [removed] who does not have a clue what constitutes a creative flyhalf.........Morne can, my are you thick [removed] 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 11:10:19
@A girl. Concentrate or [removed] off, soutpiel.

The writer said:

"......cannot attack the advantage line with speed and guile........".

I said that he can and he has proven it.

Now get back  in your hole.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 11:24:36
No dumb [removed].......no supporter would ever associate Morne with 'speed' or 'guile' unless you were so [removed]ing stupid or posted as a Vlag 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 11:32:05
Didn't I tell you to [removed] off back to your hole?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 11:41:14
 Ceradyne

Just two questions -

*   When and where did Morne attack the gain line with speed and guile?
*   Why is it that if Morne is as good as you claim he is, Stade Francais basically uses him as their bench flyhalf?    


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 12:11:14
 I have shown you many clips where he has done it before. You just have to look past your hate glasses.

OK. I have discussed the SF issue recently but you have completely ignored it. I suspect that you will  now be doing the same again.

I am not going to post the results and logs again because I have done it before. SF was very near the top of the Top14 log at the time when Steyn and Plisson were rotated. Plisson then got the no 10 spot in the French team and what was the head coach to do? Can you imagine the French rugby public when an Argentinian head coach of a French club decide to keep the French national flyhalf on the bench? That brings us to the little question of the results. After the 6N when Plisson got to get most of the game time, SF started slipping down the log.

They eventually ended up in 7th place and under the previous European club competition rules they would automatically have been stuck in the 2nd tier Amlin Challenge Cup. This time, under the new competition rules they had the opportunity to get into the first tier (old HC) competition. All they had to do was to beat London Wasps on aggregate in two games (away and home). Steyn played in the first game away and they narrowly lost by 1 point. They were the favourites to win their home game. This time around, on French soil, they went for Plisson at 10 and it failed miserably. So much so that just before halftime the commentators starting moaning about Quesada keeping Plisson on the pitch because he (Plisson) kept trying to run out of their own 22m area. Wasp, who were already ahead, saw that and just kept them (SF) pinned in their own half and mostly in or near their own 22m. All he had to do was to kick them out of trouble a few times to get them away and on the front foot. He never managed to get his team on the front foot and all they had to show were 6 points from the boot against Wasps' 20 points. In the end they lost on aggregate by 50-35. All they needed was to beat Wasps by three points. Plisson was the main cuplrit.

If you have watched the games, instead of reading the results and the team sheets, you would have know all of this. Instead of watching the games, you saw a picture of Morne, and his team mates, with a few football players and fabricated a story that SF is trying to sell him off to some non-existent rugby club which turned out to be a football club.

BTW. Did you see Plisson playing in Aus recently?


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 13:15:41
Vlag[removed], I don't hate Morne, I don't know him - I just think he is a [removed] rugby player who has NEVER displayed any speed, guile or creativity as a player......he is [removed] 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 13:22:08
 Sounds a lot like you then.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9340
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 13:25:36
Wow [removed]......is that your best shot......go crawl back in your laaaaaarger.......and make sure you feed the oxen 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 14:27:22
 http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002507715/5932378073_why_is_yawning_contagious03_xlarge.jpeg


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13017
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 14:58:31
 Ceradyne

You still has not answered my question on when Morne did all the wonderful things you said he did?   

And you went on about Morne and what happened at Satde Francais - but becs made a serious statement as to what the Stade Francais coach said about Morne - - but you ifnore it conmpletely and start running away with the log position of the club - nthing specifically about Morne.  .   


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3280
RE: Youth development in springbok team and selections
July 03, 2014, 15:05:17
 Becs did? Where and when?

In any case. He did some of them against the All Blacks. I have shown you a  number of video clips. One of them was his début game for Stade Francais, but that is another thread that you left with your leg between your tails. Then there were also tries that he scored against the All  Blacks amongst others. There were also numerous examples of tries that started of with his decision making. Someone else also showed some clips and discussed it at length. I am not going to search for them  again because the moment that they get posted, you piss off from the threads in any event.


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