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8413 Topic: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3422
Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 15, 2014, 21:01:55

Lambie is very average at flyhalf. 

He could play any position in the backline better than flyhalf. 


He just has no effect on the game. He does not play badly, he is just barely noticeable. 
He does not stamp his authority at 10, neither in a kicking game, a running game taking on the advantage line, or even a distribution game in getting his line running.

Frans Steyn's performance last week at 10 was much better than anything that Bambie has dished up this season.

I think Frans should go to 10, and then shift Bambie to 15, or even inside centre. 
Although  I would prefer an inside centre in the 100+kg mark like Esterhuizen. 
Bambie has much more effect at 15, and can also come in at 1st reciever on multi-phase possesion to vary play up- like when Michalak was at 10.




mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 15, 2014, 21:14:19
A small, slow chappie. It's not clear to me why people think he is going to ignite our backplay. To do that he has to be a ball magnet and somebody who makes space and releases the  backs  outside him. This week no 12 got less ball than Fransie....he got the ball 7 times, the low for any inside centre in the S15. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 15, 2014, 22:00:53
Steyn got the ball 6 times - he passed the ball three times - a record for him - knocked the ball on once - kick once at the touchline after a penalty and did not find touch and hung onto the ball once - giving away two penalties.   

Lambie passed the ball 9 times - he could not help it that Steyn was nowhere when he was supposed to receive the ball from the flyhalf - or better still Lambie knew he should not pass tp Steyn - but to somebody else - since Steyn was bound to bugger up badly whenever he got the ball.

Steyn at flyhalf was a disaster - his goal kicking was good - his passing game totally inadequate and often enough wild - so what is his credentials to be a flyhalf?         


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 16, 2014, 02:29:59
 Actually I forgot to add, even though Fransie got the ball a miserable 7 times....Lambie only passed 8 times, the lowest number of any of the S15 fly halves. So um, speculation that Lambie was passing to somebody else is amusing.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 16, 2014, 07:36:31
 Mozart

Check your stats again.   Lambie passed the ball 9 times - 6 times to Steyn and 3 times to somebody else.   The seventh ball Steyn got when he caught a kicked ball in defense in the Sharks 22.  Even then Steyn failed to find touch with the relieving kick. 

You blame Lambie for kicking - but in the second half the Reds were camping in the Sharks half 80% of the time and he or Reinach had to kick balls to try and relieve the pressure whenever they got the ball.   Not the fault of either of the two.

Lambie knew better than to pass the ball to Steyn.   Of the 6 balls he received he knocked on/spilled 1 ball and caused penalties while getting caught in possession and hanging on to 2 balls.    He did pass 3 balls - one to Marais and two to Sithole.

Incidentally - there was a second ball possession loss and that was when Steyn was given the ball to kick for touch after a penalty was awarded.  He botched that one as well - failing to find touch.

Steyn thus buggered up with every ball he received and did not pass - so how in all honesty can Lambie take a chance and pass more balls to him?

To Steyn's credit - his defense this time was better than it was in his previous three games.   However, he still stood around looking sheepish when he did not even try to tackle Harris before the latter scored his try.

I would say that since Steyn's good effort in the first game in Super 15 this year  - he has regressed in every game since then and hopefully yesterday's game will be the lowest he would go.   Any further deterioration would be a disaster for the Sharks.  
    



Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 17, 2014, 12:57:10

There are some really ignorant observers on this site - Pat had a good game at flyhalf

 

This from the Sharks supporters site, which is about spot on

 

10) Pat Lambie. For the second match in a row, he returned a perfect place kicking record while putting in superb work on defence. It wasn’t flashy from Pat, but about the only error I can recall in 80 minutes was one penalty that didn’t find touch. 8/10 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 17, 2014, 13:04:02

The "only error" sums it up. He will give us decent defence and decent kicking. I rate Pat Lambie he is a gutsy player. But he will never be a positive in the running game....as the season wears on he will run less and less.....like last year. He is simply the next in a string of kickers at flyhalf. 

 

That kick into touch in goal was a pretty big mistake as well.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 17, 2014, 14:10:44
 Mozart

You are promoting Steyn as a flyhalf. 

Lets look at the following quote:-

 "But he will never be a positive in the running game....as the season wears on he will run less and less.....like last year. He is simply the next in a string of kickers at flyhalf."

Question is will Steyn promote the running game?       

Steyn was given a similar kick to the one Lambie made a mess of - and the result was the same.   Lambie is condemned - dead silence in respect of the Steyn mess.

 Prejudice raising its ugly head again?


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 17, 2014, 14:47:42
Lambie is passive, he is slow, he is weak, he cannot make decisions, he cannot handle pressure or respond to it with any kind of conviction. He has never been the kind of player he was stated to be, ever. He is just an average player that cannot excel in any position. He is plainly average at centre, fullback or flyhalf. At fullback he can do the least damage but is equally invisible. This shouldn't even be a debate, he has been on the scene since 2010, this is his fourth year and we are still talking about potential. He couldn't outplay a has-been Butch or Michallak, and coudn't outplay a specialist 12 now. In 2011 Bosman and JLP both showed more promise when given gametime. He is more solid than Goosen by a long way, but still nothing to write home about in contact situations. He will disappear from the Sharks sooner rather than later; the writing is already on the wall.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 17, 2014, 15:54:51
 Dim Sun

"Morne is passive, he is slow, he is weak, he cannot make decisions, he cannot handle pressure or respond to it with any kind of conviction."   That is much nearer a description of Morne Stteyn than of Lambier - so a I change the wording to be appropriate and reflect the truth.

And Morne has already disappeared from the Bulls and cannot make the starting line up of Stade Francais when Plisson is available.   

So please stick to facts - not your biased rubbish you continue to spout.   


Arthur John

Status: Squad member
Posts: 597
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 17, 2014, 16:38:42
 As a Sharks and Bok supporter I will admit that neither Lambie or F Steyn appear to be the answer to either the national or Sharks fly-half woes.

Sure Lambie has had a few good games in that position and Steyn did remarkable well at fly-half two weeks ago. But, neither of these players have got that spark and the eye for attack that this position requires.

Cooper from the Reds has it all. That is what SA needs desperately to stamp their authority on a game and feed the backs/forwards who are performing well.

Sure Boshoff has had an excellent season thus far and I hope he can maintain that standard and reap just rewards.

But the rest of the guys playing fly-half in SA today are all very average from what rugby I have seen in S15 this season.

For some reason we kick possession away needlessly and when we kick for position we fail to get touch. Most times when we do get touch we do not follow up and the opposition take a quick throw in and we loose ground.

Puzzling to me how we have still not latched onto the basics like the NZ and Aust. teams.


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 10:15:25
There is still this persistence in refusing to understand how attacking backplay happens. You play off your 9 or you play off your 10. You need runners running purposeful lines around your 10, your 10 is the trigger, the runners are the bullets. Your 10 cannot spark attack, he can simply decide when to attack and pick the strike runner based on how the defence is reacting to the attacker's lines; that means the centres, blindside wing, the fullback. This and this alone is the very heart of South Africa's attacking woes. Modern defences are PERFECT at suppressing and capturing the INDIVIDUAL. Solution: You need attacking units working in unison to CREATE space through DECEPTION to insert the attacker. This continued idiocy in searching for a 10 who will compensate for these failings is the height of all idiocy, it doesn't and cannot work. It's a contradiction to how how New Zealand play and how attacking rugby really works. When Peter Dom Villiers and Muir talked this garbage up Eddie Jones stated it must exist on the moon because nobody on Earth plays like that, not successfully anyway. So in short, no flyhalf is the solution, because flyhalf is not the problem in the first place!!

@ArthurJohn: Cooper has beehn a liability to Australian rugby since day 1. Did you not see him flail around like a toddler thrown into stormy waters? He bombed again when put under close scrutiny. But then Wales is the real test *rolls eyes*


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 12:12:21
 Sun Tzu

I like the following of what you said above:-

"Your 10 cannot spark attack, he can simply decide when to attack and pick the strike runner based on how the defence is reacting to the attacker's lines."

I believe that the above requires from a 10 to read the game and instinctively decide on what option to take.   Without that ability in a ten we can go nowhere in any attacking play.   Problem is that the 10's we have had since Honiball did not have that ability.   Morne Steyn even have to be told in advance by the coach  where to take up his position and what to do under given circumstances. 

You cannot have robots at 10 - you need players who have rugby acumen.   That is where players like Goosen and Lambie are miles ahead of the robots - eg Morne Steyn and Francois Steyn.   In 2012 those two robotic players were in positions 10 and 12 and that was enough to destroy anything done by anybody outside of those two players.   Tries were only scored when those two were cut out altogether from attacking moves.

In conclusion - you are not looking for a magic 10 - you are looking for a 10 with the ability -

*   to read games and to vary plays according to those readings;
*   to also vary playing styles - including to attack the gain line himself; and
*   to defend well enough to stem opposition attacks through the channel.

Morne and Francois Steyn fail in all three above - so we have to look elsewhere.     


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 12:33:07

Disagree 100%, Pat has always shown he is a classy attacking player - up there with the best of the 10's out there.

 

 

If there is an opportunity to attack, Pat will take it, as will Goosen. I have far more confidence in these two taking the attacking opportunities on offer, than a player like Morne, who is not only ill equipped to execute on attack, he is also conservatively minded. Look no further than his Youtube tribute.......hell we see 3 or 4 breaks in a 10 year tribute........for the rest its kick, kick, kick.

 

 

Lambie and Goosen have hardly ripped defences to shreds thus far this S15, but they do posses the ingredients to attack......more so than any other 10's in SA 


mozart

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Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 13:45:50
 Small, slow and conservative....no way Lambie is an attacking option at 10.... the channel most filled with big bodies.


clevermike

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Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 16:00:35
 A hell of a lot faster than thoughtless Morne - whom you idolize - and only slightly smaller.   Hell - but the defense of Morne is putrid as well - much worse than Lambie.

And your second choice is Steyn - whose defence thus far was severely questionable.

Deceptive and non-factual thinking in evidence again.  


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 20:57:30
He is far quicker than Morne, has rugby skill and is all of 3kg lighter than Morne......he is about standard when it comes to the size of international 10's.


Lambie = conservative is a joke.......I bet Jake thinks that of Pat!!!!!!


mozart

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Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 21:39:12
He is 5' 10" ...small.


Saffex

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Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 22:39:25
What does height have to do with playing 10? 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 23:57:48
 Jonathan Sexton 6' 1"
Quade Cooper 6' 1.5"
Jules Plisson 6'
Beauden Barrett 6' 2"
Johan Goosen 6' 1"
Owen Farrell 6'2"

Seems the new generation have moved on from height challenged chaps like Carter. Lambie is the exception


I'm guessing the 6 ft rule for fly halves is more reliable than your 90 kg rule for centres....I'm just taking a page out of your book.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 12:58:31

Height has nothing to do with playing 10

 

 

Carter is the best 10 to have ever played the game 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 13:15:34

Was one of the best ....Dave. Old man Carter has done nothing of note since before the RWC. He was good but the game has moved on.....I'm sure you of all people recognize this theme.

 

And height and weight are proportional, are you saying weight has no role at 10? Surely not. These other chaps are naturally big, Lambie is a tiny little 5' 10' bloke pumped up to maximum size. But unlike other small blokes like Aplon or de Jongh, he isn't fast or even strong for his size.

 

There is no way Lambie will change anything about the Bok running game.....he simply doesn't have the tools.


Beeno1

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Posts: 11024
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 13:54:06
 Could you all read Suns very good post and understand the problem.
Thanks


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 14:57:20
 5'10 is not that short, it's average. I personally am 5'11 and a lot stronger than Lambie. Habana is 5'10 and even stronger than me! Januarie is 5'7 and stronger than both Lambie and Goosen. Most of his trouble is that he is too passive, the central nervous system - which controls muscle activation - is not doing anything because he is running on empty psychologically and emotionally. Lambie could produce greater output if he is was more aggressive. Goose on the other hand just doesn't have the body as an ectomorph.

Much appreciated Beeno, we need more awareness of those truths. It's what foreign coaches work on when they come here. Eddie Jones did it in 2007, in fact, the only player he worked on specifically was Burger; having him offload and link more.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 15:38:05
 Sun Tzu

It is your assessment of players like Morne Steyn,  Lambie aand Goosen which is questionable - not what you wrote above.   

Let me go forward with your argument based on the following:-

"Most of his trouble is that he is too passive, the central nervous system - which controls muscle activation - is not doing anything because he is running on empty psychologically and emotionally."

You cannot make a statement like that based on what you see watching TV during rugby games,  That is at best a totally unscientific evaluation.   The same as the one on Goosen.

Apparently you do not have similar qualms about Morne Steyn.   He has been relegated to the bench by Stade Francais when Jules Plisson is available.   Is there a reason for that?   Is the reason not that "he is too passive?  Don't you think that Stade Francais has sound reasons for that?   It obviously is clear that they studied the performances of Steyn and came to an adverse conclusion about what he is capable of delivering.  Some comments on the latter will be appreciated.   


Ceradyne

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Posts: 2669
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 15:52:51

clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9802
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 17, 2014, 15:54:51
 Dim Sun



And Morne has already disappeared from the Bulls and cannot make the starting line up of Stade Francais when Plisson is available.   



more.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9804
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 15:38:05
 Sun Tzu



Apparently you do not have similar qualms about Morne Steyn.   He has been relegated to the bench by Stade Francais when Jules Plisson is available.   Is there a reason for that?   Is the reason not that "he is too passive?  Don't you think that Stade Francais has sound reasons for that?   It obviously is clear that they studied the performances of Steyn and came to an adverse conclusion about what he is capable of delivering.  Some comments on the latter will be appreciated.   



Old lying Sopdoos at it again. These were the games that Stade Francaise played since Dec as well as the flyhalves in those games:

Top14:

20 Dec v Grenoble. Steyn start. Plisson bench
29 Des v Perpignon. Plisson start. Steyn bench.
4 Jan v Biarritz. Steyn start. Plisson bench
24 Jan v Castres. Steyn start. Plisson bench
8 Feb v Clermont. Steyn start. Plisson 6N
15 Feb v Brive. Steyn start. Plisson 6N
22 Feb v Oyonnax. Steyn start. Plisson 6N
28 Feb v Montpellier. Steyn start. Plisson bench


European Challenge Cup:
8 Dec v London Irish: Plisson.
14 Dec v London Irish: Plisson start. Steyn bench
9 Jan v I Cavalieri Prato. Both Steyn and Plisson rested
16 Jan v Lusitanos XV. Both Steyn and Plisson rested

In your own words:

"So please stick to facts - not your biased rubbish you continue to spout. "






Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2669
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 16:01:44


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7418
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 18, 2014, 22:39:25
What does height have to do with playing 10? 

A lot, in this case, if you mention that Lambie is 3kg (which is actually 4kg) lighter than Morn,e Steyn but you fail tomention that he is also 2 inches shorter than Steyn.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 16:08:47
Indecision kills the flyhalf.....at S15 level  it's dogging Lambie and Goosen, except when the line kick is obvious. I doubt things will getter in higher paced test rugby.  Would Lambie or Goosen have had the confidence to break out of their cookie cutter games and thrown the Morne pass that led to Habana's try against the ABS. Unlikely.


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 865
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 16:13:54
 LMFAO!!!
 So Card (sorry I mean Sun Tzu), you say you are a lot stronger than Lambie, but almost as Strong as Habana?
Did you lot armwresl ? 5'10 might be normal for normal people but is smallish for pro rugby players playing top flight international rugby. Excetional players being the exception.
Don't take offence, I might not be strong enough to handle you. I do have about 3.5" on you though.


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 865
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 16:16:55
 PS, You joker you....ROTFPML... gold I tell you, keep the good stuff coming!


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 759
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 16:26:41

 Slit-eyed and cross between Warlord and Confusius...dream on...what horse crap...


"I personally am 5'11 and a lot stronger than Lambie. Habana is 5'10 and even stronger than me! Januarie is 5'7 and stronger than both Lambie and Goosen."


Patrick is ten times the strength you'll ever be.


Stop hallucinating pal.


Don't like JW personally but he is a near genius coach...he knows rugby and is a very outstanding assessor of mens strength and ability to put a win formula together...the criticism of Patrick Lambie and other team members Willem Alberts, Frans Steyn and Jannie Du Plessis and the rest (from some critics here) is going to spread a lot of egg on faces after the Sharks make us proud...if not a clean sweep of the competition...the only reservation I have about the Sharks is this week-end...because I hope they get a fright against the Bulls to wake them up...always been the Sharks weakness...complacency...the best side in SA but with mind problems.


Jake knows this and is programming his side right...one step at a time...no for-gone conclusions, no celebrations or parties until the silverware is in Durban...a long road still and the glamour boys of the Sharks have been made aware of this.


Francois Steyn and past glamour boys know this, Alberts is going to become even greater...the Sharks ooze talent but the training, preparation is on track...I will put my head on this.


As much liking I have towards Mike as a decent guy he just pisses me off with his criticism on Alberts and FS.


Sadly we're lost Pieter Steph but Anton Bresler is one of the best unsung locks in this country...come on Sharkies...I got the vibe that you'll put everyone in their rightfull place...a huge respect to both the Sharks and Jake.




mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 16:34:07
Don't get me wrong Chaballs, I also rate JW. He would be in his third RWC phase as Bok coach if I had the choice. And he would never play a flyhalf who wasn't very competent. Lambie will be very competent. The question before the house is whether he can spark Bok backline play....that's where I demur. He could be an effective Bok flyhalf in the Morne/Joel etc mode. He will never be a runner or an open game facilitator. Which is fine by me....I don't think we can beat the ABs playing wide open rugby.


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 759
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 17:35:48

Thanks Mozzie...I respect you as a reasonable critic...nobody agrees with everybody...but I never allow my dislike or my adversion to a particular subject or person to blind my vision...I enjoy intelligence but also try to do  the best of my God given abilities to say uplifting (without flattery or programmed patriotnising of any individual).


What pisses me off on this forum is the remarks that are so insulting, so stupid and so individually launched in personal attack...really immature and with really no knowledge of the person attacked verbally without even knowing the person in the flesh ( so's to speak). You get a vague idea from comments...either positive or negative from people who you do not know.


I think there are a lot of really good guys (and gals, especially Cloudy from the Land of the Long White Cloud) and dear old Bec's who lives in England...really even your arch enemy Mike really likes you...and I even tolerate Jalepeno...the guy who tries to bait me with trivial matters but attacks me when I posted a title in the opening match between England and France in the 6N. I remarked that that the absence of Tuilagi (due to injury) was no train smash...he aggressively challenged me that it was.


I replied that Burrell was a good substitute and indeed he was for he scored a try in that match and other matches later.


My question is...why do we argue against lost causes and try and demean each other when we are wrong...why not be real gentlemen and officers and admit mis-assessments and give acknowledge to your adversery. Is it stupid ego or pride that makes us such fools??


I surmise that is why Tomas Lavanini  left this forum...probably many others? 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 21:21:11
There are two positions on the field where weight is of little significance.......9 and 10.

Sure you cant play a 10 that weighs 80kg but high 80's is about par. At 9, weight plays no part.


Height plays little part in the backs, especially at 9 & 10 ........Tuilangi a centre is 6ft and weighs over 110kg...........height has stuff all to do with him


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 22:04:37
Height and weight are proportional Dave....you can't want weight without height. Your 90 kg flyhalf will typically be over 6 feet. Anyway I don't buy weight being so much more critical at 12 vs 10. The flyhalf gets more loosies rumbling through his channel.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3422
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 22:16:01
In any rugby position, if 2 players are of equal skill the heavier player is going to be better. It is a contact sport so physicality in all rugby positions is beneficial.

Ask Jonah Lomu who was tackled in the 1995 world cup final by a scrumhalf which prevented a likely match winning try by the All Blacks. 

Having a Henry Honnibal at 10, or a Peter Grant is better than having a timid flyhalf that cant tackle. 

The garbage tackling of Morne Steyn against the All Blacks was one of the defining factors of the loss. 

Bottom line is flyhalfs and scrumhalfs should have high skills levels, but being physical is an extra bonus and certainly a factor in determing results.




mozart

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Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 22:23:01
Which is why I like the notion of testing Fransie at 10....remember how he smashed Shane Williams in a legitimate power tackle. He has the boot, clearly loves playing at 10  and as he showed in RWC07 where he made the clinching kick....he has the nerve. None of the other guys like Lambie and Goosen have a prayer of outplaying Barrett except in a kicking duel. In a tight game Frans could dominate a Barrett.


clevermike

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Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 22:30:37
 Dof Doos 

While the 6 Nations were being played and even before that the French squad included Plisson - so he was not available from the third week of January until last week.  Talking kak again - idiot.  

Can't you get it into your thick skull that Morne is NOT international material?


clevermike

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Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 22:38:26
Mozart

I take it that you think that the flyhalf should be a good defender.   That being the case - how do you account for Morne's poor defense in last year's RC and Frans Steyn worse record in Super 15 this year?   Yet you support their candidature for the flyhalf position while their defense is highly questionable? 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 23:18:16
So then Moz, how do you account for Tuilangi standing 6ft and weighing over 110kg?


The 10 should not have loosies running at him if his loosies are doing their job. Sure the 10 is going to have big lads running at him, thats why you dont select a defensive liability like Morne at 10......Goosen and Lambie are far better defenders than Morne


The 12 has to be 95kg plus for he is expected to impose himself physically on attack and defence.......this is not something expected of a 10



Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 19, 2014, 23:18:24
So then Moz, how do you account for Tuilangi standing 6ft and weighing over 110kg?


The 10 should not have loosies running at him if his loosies are doing their job. Sure the 10 is going to have big lads running at him, thats why you dont select a defensive liability like Morne at 10......Goosen and Lambie are far better defenders than Morne


The 12 has to be 95kg plus for he is expected to impose himself physically on attack and defence.......this is not something expected of a 10



Rugganut

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 183
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 00:09:44
Very interesting reading the comments here. Quite simply we do not know what we want at 10. Apart from saying that we would take DC, Cruden or Barrett there is no 10 in SA that comes close to running a game.

I have said all along our thinking is wrong about what we want. If our 10's can kick at goal and get all the points on offer he is the 'messiah'. If you add a drop goal in there he is 'God'. 

There is and has been no 10 in SA that can dictate terms of a game even when we are on the front foot from the forwards. I am not blaming any of the 10s here. It is a coaching error that comes from U13 rugby and also the way we see the game in South Africa.

Desperate times need desperate measures but our 'brainstrust' think we are in a perfect position and have a lot of options. That is the problem right there.

As much as i think there is no long term solution, i think in the shorter term Boshoff could probably be the only player that has not been tarnished and you could work with. As probably the most idiotic idea, SP Marais at 10 . Desperation being the only reason.  

My personal thinking is that it is not the players fault. Its the way they are being told to play, which in most cases is not their natural game and what we expect from them. Throw in the unexpected and we may have a few surprises instead of being so predictable. Maybe our players should go to France from 18-21 and then return.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 03:12:42
 I have this picture in my mind of Bastareaud running over Sexton, and I'm wondering why we think 10 channel isn't as tough as anything out there. RWC 15 is going to be more physical than anything to date....the Six Nations shows that. I just can't see Lambie or Goosen meeting that kind of physical onslaught and playing rugby like butterflies out there....they will be deep, deep in the pocket and shoeing leather. If we want a player who gets over the advantage line, we should give Fransie a chance to play 10 and see what happens.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 03:48:03
 Mozart

Thanks for the joke - you really are a funny guy.   :D:D:D

Our Fransie played one game at 10 - in which game he attempted 4 tackles and missed 2.   Is he not the guy who looked sheepishly on while Harris ran around him to score a try for the Reds?

So far this year he had an excellent tackling record - missing all pf 26% of attempted tackles - a bit of a defensive sieve that one.

But then you think the more tackles missed - the better a defender is.  So nothing new here.      :D:D:D  


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 759
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 04:24:10

Certainly FS at 10 could be the way to go on the fields of 2015 WC but we'll have a clearer picture at the end of the Super series...Lambie will have to prove himself too and has a huge challenge to silence his critics but I'm backing this young man and I've a lot of confidence in him...the other option is Marnitz Boshoff...the dead-eye Dick drop goaler...could be a Jonny Wilkinson or Joel Stransky in WC 2015.


There are many options and hopefully this tough super series will bring to the fore...the way to go. How JW uses FS and PL will be telling and if the Sharks dream comes true the SA rugby public might well put pressure on HM to stand down for JW when going into the biggest arena of rugby but I doubt if this is possible...well one never really can tell but one can dream that 2015 will be another 1995.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2669
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 08:51:54
 

mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6124
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 03:12:42
 I have this picture in my mind of Bastareaud running over Sexton, and I'm wondering why we think 10 channel isn't as tough as anything out there. RWC 15 is going to be more physical than anything to date....the Six Nations shows that. I just can't see Lambie or Goosen meeting that kind of physical onslaught and playing rugby like butterflies out there....they will be deep, deep in the pocket and shoeing leather. If we want a player who gets over the advantage line, we should give Fransie a chance to play 10 and see what happens.

Moz, I get what you are saying about the 10 channel and big guys like Basteraud and I have been (probably still is) a fan of Basteraud but I have been watching him a bit closer lately. He is getting much slower than he was. He used to be quite quick for someone with such a big frame but he has slowed down a lot. He is still a monster when he goes an the rampage and when he tucks the ball under his arm. He used to be able to burst through tackles and then go on the run, but nowadays he just burst into tackles and then drag the whole lot with him like a strong forward being tackled by a number of smaller backline players. Having said that, the normal backline player still doesn't like to take him head-on.

The first clip was done almost three years ago:



This one is from the 2013/14 season:





mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 12:19:56

I take your point on Bastareaud, he does look slower in the second clip. It's hard to tell with such a huge man, but he is probably carrying 10 or 15 more lbs ....and could possibly get some pace back by just losing that. That said, I thought the Irish test was the best I've seen him this year.

 

What a horrible prospect to play against....making a tight pass has to be terrifying. He may get penalized but the passer could be off on a stretcher.

 

Tuilagi, who will be mid career at the RWC is another of these massive battering rams.

 

Then if you consider Nonu and a guy like Kuridrani for Australia....all our major opponents will have one power centre. These big guys have flopped in the past, but have they been deployed properly?   

 

  


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 13:01:12
Wow Moz, Tuilangi is 22 and will be mid career by 2015!!!!!!!! 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 13:53:50

He will be 24 by the time the RWC starts.

 

20...23 Early career

 

24....28 Mid career

 

29...31 Late career.

 

 

There are exceptions like BOD and Jean, but I'd say that's about average.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 14:05:09
 Mozart 

You have it wrong -

*  Late Career with rare exception 29 to 30  - with declining performances commencing
*  Middle career                         25 to 28  - prime performance
*  Early career                           21 to 24  - exceptional performances at young age/

Once a player goes over 31 years of age - serious decline in performances always in evidence - with extremely rare exceptions.  De Villiers himself said that he must train twice as hard now to what he did at age 29 just to maintain the level of performance he maintained at 29.   Not all players  do and there are one constant - they get slower and less effective from the time they reach the age of 30.  


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 865
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 20, 2014, 16:44:47
 Where is Iron-Card?


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 21, 2014, 10:23:49
Where I agree with this debate is that a strong 10-12-13 axis is the backbone of every successful World Cup winning team. What have seen is that Morné can competently put down players a great deal bigger than himself. In the Ellis Park disaster he was probably our best defender overall, never missing a single head-on tackle and cleaning up after failures from Jannie, Eben, Alberts and a few others regarded for being integral to the Bok defence. But more than a power 10 we need a complete 12. We can never evolve our game until we move on from one-trick pony Jean and find a test 13. Lambie has consistently failed to deliver the fundamentals of the position at 10, Goosen was brutally exposed throughout 2012 and is continuing in that vein... there is nobody at 10 other than Morné and no other at 12 but Frans. If either one of these two are omitted I predict an early semi-final exit.


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 865
RE: Pat Lambie at flyhalf
March 26, 2014, 07:17:50
 Well, Lambie is out for the rest of SR, we won't see much of Morne, but he is the incumbent. Goosen seems brittle and the Cheetahs are going nowhere ATM, Same at the Stormers. Bools 10's are either too young or too old. That leaves only Boshoff as contender playing locally. And maybe if Frans start playing 10, but unlike Moz, I don't think we can afford such a drastic experiment at this stage. So Morne it will be, with either Boshoff or Goosen gunning for the backup spot at FH?


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