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7180 Topic: The team I would play against Scotland
Saffex

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Posts: 7619
The team I would play against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 23:48:11

Give the likes of Habana, Jean, Beast, Bismark, Flip, Louw and Alberts a break.


Play the following side:


15. Willie 14. JP 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Aplon 10. Lambie 9 du Preez 1. Coenie 2. Strauss (c) 3. Malherbe 4. Etzebeth 5. Steph du Toit 6. Kolisi 7. Coetzee 8. Vermeulen



16. Ntumbeni 17. Adriaanse 18. Beast 19. Bakkies 20. Alberts 21. Schrauder 22. Goosen 23. Fourie


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2952
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 23:56:21
 Is it to give the older players a break, or just to select the younger players?

I would give the younger players a run against Scotland but with the intention of still winning the game. 

That backrow is poor and will not be effective the breakdown which has been the Achilles heel against Scotland in recent years.



Saffex

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Posts: 7619
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 00:03:17
The younger players like Willie, JJ, Goosen, Lambie, Steph du Toit and Kolisi are better than the incumbents anyway and bullshit, that backrow is good......Kolisi is better than Louw and Coetzee offers something completely different to Alberts.


By the time we get to play France we need the best side on the field, otherwise we have no chance in hell against them.......experiments like Fourie and co need to be a distant bad memory


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6542
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 00:19:37

It's not going to happen....there will be a substantial group of experienced players, especially on the bench. HM wants to experiment a bit, he doesn't want to lose the plot.


Saffex

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Posts: 7619
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 00:29:07
Meyer lost the plot ages ago.....there has been little progress since PDV........we stuttered past Italy and Scotland at home, the Argies away and never looked like beating NZ......hardly progression now is it........going back to players like Steenkamp, Fourie and Bakkies is regressive, as is the blind faith in Morne.........Meyer and plot don't go hand in hand, not even close......I have no faith or confidence in the man.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1652
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 00:41:09

I see JJ is still at 13..Doesn't matter what pack you play if they are breaking through out wider...

 

Expect Scotland to play the same way they did in SA earlier in the year. They will target the breakdown and employ their shady tactics again that the ref in SA let them get away with. For this reason, I feel Meyer will want Alberts and Vermuelen in there. Two hard men that will knock the Scots back all day. Remembering against Scotland in SA, we had Kruger at 5, Coetzee at 6, Arno Botha at 7 (he was injured early if I can rememebr correctly and was playing well until then), Spies at 8.

 

These guys are no way more physical than Bakkies, Louw, Alberts and Vermuelen. Coetzee is a good player but he does not have the effect Alberts does at test level and ditto Spies vs Vermuelen. We all know Kruger is as soft as you get for a tight forward.

I expect Meyer will look at that tape and take no chances of letting a bloke like Strokosch (if he is playing) get away with murder like he did in SA. With a stronger pack, the ref will not be able to keep them in it because he will be bullied out of the game in 10mins.

 

Would be nice to "rest" a few of the regulars but will Meyer take the chance? I expect changes but not a hell of a lot. Fourie must start at 13 to get up to speed for the French. If Fourie is not going to start at 13, we need to cut him loose from the squad and just persist with JJ. We need to show confidence in one of them!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7619
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 01:30:47
Yes CHICKEN you thick prick.....JJ at 13 for he is by far the best 13 we have.......but you are too thick to comprehend the basics so I doubt the attributes of an outside centre are ever going to wash.


Stick to pink elephants and apples......or beating your chest and threatening to beat posters up.........run along now CHICKEN, cheap, cheap, cheap


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6542
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 01:41:29
The problem with your logic Dave is not unique. In fact it's the norm rather than the exception. As a critic you have an alternative to the one you are dumping on. If the existing model fails, you use that as evidence that you are right. The only problem is your model will deliver worse results. Witness De Stroyli who is your soul brother....and witness every case where our established Boks were rested in RWC years. 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7619
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 01:57:04
Wrong Moz, de Stroyli was an insult and I have nothing in common with his way of thinking.....and the problem with some of the less experienced sides selected over the years, was the fact that they represented anything but the best of our young talent.


For me, the essence of winning rugby is about selecting the best players, SA coaches seem incapable of grasping this very concept.


Take the Kiwi's for instance, they get their selections 90% right everytime and that includes the squad as a whole.


They select the best players, they dont select overseas based players, they dont go back to players that have past their prime......they invest in a core of experienced players and supplement them with the best of the youngsters they have at their disposal.


You dont see the Kiwi's going back to a Steenkamp, Fourie or Bakkies......or show blind faith in a pivot like Morne.


Their experienced players like Woodcock, Mealamu, Nonu, Smith and McCaw form the core, with youth around them......that is the winning model, but Meyer cant grasp this basic fact......does he really think we are going to dominate the world with the likes of Fourie, Morne, Pienaar, Steenkamp and Bakkies.......come on


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6542
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 02:07:37
No Dave the essence of winning rugby is choosing the best  team. The AB team that won the RWC was the oldest winner short of the Poms in 03.


Saffex

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Posts: 7619
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 02:19:59
Moz its not about RWC's........their current model is the standard......Meyer is way off the mark


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2952
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 02:56:31
 Saffex what you don't understand is having a game plan, and selecting the players and right combination that can implement this.

Instead you choose your favorites in the backrow which will create an unbalanced back row especially for the Northern Hemishpere.

Cotzee and Kolisi are unlikely to make a good combination. 

Both are poor fetchers, and neither is a  strong carrier in the tight phases for the trench warfare of the Northern Hemishphere.

Cotzee has a higher work rate especially in tackles, but Kolisi is better with the ball in hand in the loose- 
but neither is good on the ground or strong in the  tight phases.

This could likely lead to Scotland spoiling our ball and the Boks getting bullied at the breakdown. 

It is then likely to just turn into a game of tackling for the Boks, with little go forward ball.  As a result the outside backs would get little ball to attack from.

Deon Fourie should be in the squad as a specialist fetcher to clean out our own ball quickly, slow down opposition possession and get a few turn overs.

Kolisi and Cotzee are both numbers 7's, and small at that for test level. 

Neither can jump in the lineout being midgets, which gives Scotland more targets to throw to.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1308
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 07:50:42
 
Nicely put Shark. Couldn't have said it better.

It won't help though.

I've tried spoon feeding Stupid all year long ... to no avail.

I think what hinders him is that everything above the nose is solid bone.



Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1652
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 09:25:16
Dave, you stupid prick, if JJ is the best we got at 13 we are in a terrible place..Cant tackle, no vision and is just a forrest Gump. The man can run but dont ask him to think!!

A bit like you Dave except you cant run either hey lard ass!
I will stick to threatening posters as long as you stick to holding your phone in your hand and listening to it ring you yellow belly homo!


Pine in Ireland

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 101
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 09:47:22
 Over 60000 posts of rubbish. 


clevermike

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Posts: 10321
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 09:47:42

I am going to be a false note here.   we struggled against Scotland last year and the same in the June test.   Last year we had as flanks the same loosie combination than we had this year if my memory serves me correctly - the difference being Vermeulen ahead of Spies at 8.   In both cases the problems centered around the props and breakdown ball recovery.

 

We might as well accept that all the loosies at present in the squad has one thing in common - they are not good enough in that specific highlighted function.   Vermeulen and Louw make some very rare recoveries - but by far not enough.   Alberts, Kolisi and Coetzee never make any recoveries.  Bulk means nothing in this case and bulk often enough entails clumsiness as well. 

 

If we want to see a difference in that respect - players like Strauss and Du Toit could help, while Bakkies in such circustances will also produce nothing.

 

Basically playing Vermeulen and Louw would seem to be essential in combatting the Scots in the ball recovery situation - but who to play at 7 is in that case and for such a role immaterial.   I would probably say Coetzee with Kolisi on the bench  

 

  


Pine in Ireland

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 101
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 09:49:38
Almost 8000 posts of rubbish


clevermike

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Posts: 10321
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 09:55:16

 Pine in Ireland

 

Just one question - have you ever seen Alberts, Kolisi and Coetzee achieve a recovery of a ball in breakdown situations?   I am sorry - but I follow such things closely and that wonderful thing has never happened in the case of the three players mentioned That is no rubbish - it is 100% factual.  


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1308
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 11:02:06
 
I've seen Alberts recover a lot of ball at the break down.

What's your point, Mike?


clevermike

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Posts: 10321
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 12:31:58

 Clean Cut

 

Sure - he got some balls after mauls  - but there is a huge difference between that and breakdown ball recovery.   Mauls are a slowdown method in play - breakdown ball recovery is a continuation of attacks.   That s where the Scots were better in both the recent tests - our loosies was not protecting the ball and if we have possession the ball takes a long time to come out the resultant maul - their loosies recover balls quickly and even manage to steal our possession at points of breakdown or get penalties as a result of lack of ball protection..  


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 13:29:27
 
clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7886
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 09:55:16

 Pine in Ireland

 

Just one question - have you ever seen Alberts, Kolisi and Coetzee achieve a recovery of a ball in breakdown situations?   I am sorry - but I follow such things closely and that wonderful thing has never happened in the case of the three players mentioned That is no rubbish - it is 100% factual.  


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 970
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 11:02:06
 
I've seen Alberts recover a lot of ball at the break down.

What's your point, Mike?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7886
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 12:31:58

 Clean Cut

 

Sure - he got some balls after mauls  - but there is a huge difference between that and breakdown ball recovery.   Mauls are a slowdown method in play - breakdown ball recovery is a continuation of attacks.   That s where the Scots were better in both the recent tests - our loosies was not protecting the ball and if we have possession the ball takes a long time to come out the resultant maul - their loosies recover balls quickly and even manage to steal our possession at points of breakdown or get penalties as a result of lack of ball protection..  


Huhh. I am sure that I have read that CC has said that he has seen Alberts a lot of ball at breakdown. Yet, you are in effect saying that he has been  mistaken and that it was at the mauls that he has recovered the balls. Are you saying that CC does not know what a breakdown is?


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1308
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 14:34:35
 
Thanks Ceradyne ... your right. He is implying that the breakdown is beyond me. That I have no understanding of the concept ... even to the point of a lecture.

Nobody on this board knows as much about the game as he does it seems. Even the basics of the game are too much for us simpletons to grasp. We're all thick. Maybe that's why he's so repetitive.

Sometimes I wonder if the old codger's on the verge of senility. It's worrying. No matter ... it seems short lived ... cause the next day it sure sounds as if all his faculties are firing on all cylinders.  

At least Alberts is contributing at the maul this time round. Last week he wasn't contributing at all.

He doesn't like Alberts period. Even if Alberts won world player of the year, our dear Mike would still have criticism for this giant of a man.



clevermike

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Posts: 10321
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 16:22:14

Ceradyne

 

Have  you seen the CC final - rat shit?   I bet not - because if you did you would have noted - unless you were blind - that Alberts was standing around at the back of mauls 90% of the time.

 

He handled the ball 4 times in total -

 

   *   once from a kick in;

 

   *   twice when the ball was passed to him whilst standing around behind mauls; and

 

   *   once when he was in the maul - picked it up and carried it for about 3 meters.

 

For the rest during the game he made 3 tackles, assisted other players to make 4 tackles, and missed 4 tackles.   That was his total involvement in the whole game - but the praise singing was endless.

 

:D:D:D


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 16:37:31
 I wouldn't bet on the accuracy of your descriptions of what happens in a game of rugby old blue-arsed fly. I have after all noticed your blunders with the Stade Francais game, as well as the one where Bakkies was carded for dirty play.


Beeno1

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Posts: 8972
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 17:50:15
 dont confuse ou windpomp with any facts Mike!! 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 21:06:16
 Ou Maaikie and  facts.............? You got to be joking.


clevermike

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Posts: 10321
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 23:18:17

 Ceradyne

 

I will be nice this time around and tell you what I did.  I watched the game three times and made notes of every time - with the time given and what happened every time Alberts -

 

*   touched the ball and if so what he did with the ball during the match; and

 

*   attempted a tackle and what the outcome of the tackles was.

 

I did it because the praise singing on this site was unbelievable.   I then wrote a full report on this site giving exact time and occurrence and dare everyone to go and watch the game and prove that what I found and wrote were wrong.    Went so far as to offer to pay anybody who could fault the findings and prove that I was wrong R500.   The resultant silence was deafening - no more praise singing followed.

 

So your assumption is wrong - like it is always wrong when you try and discuss any issue on rugby on this site.     


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7619
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 23:34:56
No Sharktwat, you are wrong......the current Bok loosetrio is unbalanced because they have three cumbersome players with one masquerading as a fetcher.......Louw is no opensides backside........when last did we see him effect a turnover or slow the breakdown down? He has been average at best.


Alberts blows hot and cold and check his stats for defenders beaten or metre's gained in the last test......so the notion that he adds clout in this department is flawed. He had a good game against the Welsh but has been awol for much of the year.


Kolisi is a better 6 than Louw, so my choice is an improvement at 6. Coetzee is not ideally a 7 but a good player no less and would provide plenty of energy and something different to Alberts in a one off against the Scots.


My pack would provide plenty of physicality in the form of Coenie, Strauss, Malherbe, Etzebeth, PSDT and Vermeulen......one less without Alberts is hardly going to be defining.


As for line-out options......Alberts is hardly a stand out. Etzebeth, PSDT and Vermeulen are more than enough as options.


So no, I stand by my side and its certainly provides more clout in the backs than the one that faced the Welsh


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10321
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 23:53:40

Saffex

 

You will never convince members on this site that Alberts is not the player they give him out to be..  I have analysed Alberts' games over  a period of time and went so far as to write down with times given -

 

*  every time Alberts touched the ball and he affects of it during the whole CC final; and

*  every time Alberts attempted a tackle and what the affects were of those.

 

I then challenged the praise singing lot to go and check themselves what really happened and offered to pay nay member R500 if they could fault my summary.  The praise singing die down suddenly.

 

Alberts during the whole game carried the ball 4 times with an average gain of less than 3 meters per carry.   He made 3 tackles and assisted other players to make 4 tackles in traffic - and he missed four tackles.   That could be regarded as average to poor in performance.

 

The same tendencies can be found in all tests when you analyse the Alberts performances  carefully.   His carries are always less than 2 meters and the mighty ball carrying by him is a spoof.   His tackles are confined to tackles in traffic and he does zero about most aspects o play required from a loosie.   The praise singing is unbelievable - but as far as I am concerned not credible.      

  


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1652
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 13, 2013, 23:59:10
Clout - now there is a word that comes to mind when I think of you Dave.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7619
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 14, 2013, 00:00:35
I dont mind Alberts, he is pretty handy when he turns up, but there are better options in SA.


Our best loosies are Vermeulen, Arno Botha, CJ Stander, Brussouw, Coetzee, Kolisi, Elstadt, v/d Walt and Labascagne........my trio would be made up of a combo of these


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1652
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 14, 2013, 00:07:15

 Great trio can be made up of those Dave but its a pity all their hard work will be undone by your backline of

 

Hougaard, Jantjies, Volmink, Mnisi, JJ, Mapoe, Le Roux....

Never mind though..Your bench is looking uber strong with Sergeal Pietersen there..


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7619
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 14, 2013, 00:15:51
Ah CHICKEN talking about clouting me but is too shit scared to show his face in person.........go figure........hence CHICKEN


There is nothing worse than a lying yellow belly.......scum of the earth........is that my backline CHICKEN.......simple yes or no will do?


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1652
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 14, 2013, 01:34:37

 YES..That is one of your many backline combo's..They do change hourly though..

 

Too scared to come see you?? Dave, pay for it and im there. I promise you. I am not wasting thousands to go to a place I have no interest in seeing. Pay for me and we can put this chicken thing to bed.

I tried to call you to make arrangements and give you my details for booking purposes but you watched your phone ring like a little bitch and made some balls story up about not receiving calls off witheld numbers. Dave, I cant "clout" you through the phone. You should not have shat yourself then. Maybe in person..

 

Chicken..ha ha very rich...Your phone is not the tv dave..Answer it!!


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 617
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 14, 2013, 12:25:20
I can see what you are trying to achieve here Dave, but that team would be extraordinarily exposed against the abrasive Scots who might not be able to score many points, can defend a lead under the heaviest of sieges. They've done it before. Our best XV nearly came undone in June. Take heed young squire, listen to master Tzu.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10321
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 14, 2013, 12:45:59

Sun-Tzu

 

You are right about the June test - but is likely wrong about the real issue.  We are weakening our backline completely by inclusion of Jacque Fourie in the mix.   He really was a joke in bad taste against the Welsh and will be equally so against he Scots.  If JP Is playing it would be a further problem to contend with.   Both him and Fourie has gone backwards - playing touch rugby in Japan.  


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 617
RE: The team I would play against Scotland
November 14, 2013, 12:49:26
 Brother Mike, you overstate your point and therein lies your problem. I do agree that Fourie is not the fastest around, but then what of O'Driscoll? Conrad? JP Pietersen has potential but is another of the lazy kind. Willie is the best counterfoil to Habana we have ever had and must be retained in that capacity without exception.


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