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7162 Topic: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7792
Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 11, 2013, 16:39:40

Much has been said about HM's lack of loyalty to JJ. But what incentive is there for the coach to drop his 13. He has pretty much championed JJ for the whole season....Engelbrecht is one of his potential new Bok success stories. And he knows bringing back Fury will only give him grief. So why do it?

 

 

Because HM has concluded JJ is not a tool for the job. Any time he is defending one on one 10 metres from his line, a good runner like Fofana for example, is going to beat him and score. That's a hell of a liability. But worse yet, he reads the game so badly that if play gets unstructured he is unlikely to be in the right place.

 

Attack you say...he is brilliant. No, he is fast....like Nokwe. Nokwe would have scored every try JJ does and missed every tackle JJ does. Exceptional speed is rarely rewarded in a centre. It's the ability to beat a tackle by body position, deception....sheer strength.......to stand in the tackle and make the offload. JJ is less than average in all the key attacking attributes of a centre.

 

But above all there is the lack of a creative spark, like Fury showed Saturday. The lack of feel which had him hopelessly over running the pass near the AB line on a set move they probably practiced 20 times.

 

Switch to wing and his pace is more useful. His inability to go low but push at his opponent is forgiven by the touchline. There is nobody to offload to....space is more available. 

 

There are sticking points....taking the high ball, kicking....sensing the need to cover across field. Securing kickoffs, it's instructive that the ABs targeted JJ on the Ellis Park kick off. But still I think he could do better at wing. I'd give him a shot against Scotland....Willie should play fullback and JP was to me the least impressive Bok returning this year, so there is an opportunity.


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 713
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 11, 2013, 18:22:24
 Willie is a far superior wing than JP and JJ could ever be. But as you say, JJ is not really a centre. The fact we have continually seen persistance in moulding wings into centres reflects how dire our stocks really are. I cant imagine it very long before Meyer wittles his way down to de Jongh sooner rather than later.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8491
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 11, 2013, 18:50:29
Ah yeah Moz you have a hotline to Meyer knowing exactly what he has concluded......lets keep Fourie at 13 it makes so much more sense!! 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7792
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 11, 2013, 19:39:15
Than having a sieve? You betcha and I'm no Fury fan. 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8491
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 00:18:24
Moz your take on JJ is a load of nonsense, starting with your warped comparison with wee Nokwe. They might have had similar speed, but that is where the comparison ended......Nokwe was a little guy back then, JJ is a physical force at 95kg.......physical attributes that accounted for his move from wing to centre........the idea of converting Nokwe to centre was never entertained.


Firstly he has yet to miss a tackle one on one, so your take on 10m from the line is rubbish......his defensive stats read as well as Jean's for the year.......so if JJ is a liability in defence then so is Jean and Serfontein for that matter.


He reads the game so badly......tell that to the Kiwi's when he put Willie, Jean and then Willie away in that last test.......or the Aussies when he put Kirchner away for his try........not to mention his great try against Samoa.

Same old shit when it comes to being able to beat a tackle.......well Moz name a better beat by a Bok back this year than JJ's beating of Savea........I'll save you the blushes.......no Bok back has come close, so bang goes your theory on JJ and his beating of defenders.......his ability to beat defenders is better than any other centre in SA......he showed that against the best side in the game.......you would never see Jean being able to effect that bit of brilliance......for Jean relies on his strength and good line runs......he does not have the pace and feet of JJ. JJ can beat defenders with skill, Jean relies on opportunities in space or physically imposing himself in traffic.


JJ is better equipped to beat a man one on one than Jean is......unless you are going to take the direct route, where Jean has the edge.


Its not the role of a 13 to physically impose himself......look no further than Conrad Smith.......however these guys need to weigh around the 95kg mark as they both do........which equips them for work in traffic. We have not seem much of JJ having to operate in traffic other than taking contact and setting up second phase ball which he has done with authority all year.


Lack of creative spark......wow, the beating of Savea carried 10 times the creativity Fourie's little pop pass did.......and lets be honest now Moz, you have always criticized Fourie for going awol in matches throughout his career, so one fluke pop pass is hardly a measure of Fourie's creativity.


JJ has more attacking creativity than most our backs.......its not his role to be creative as a 12, its his role in being creative as a finisher, which he displayed in those passages of play I mention above.


He never overran a pass that is just another load of bullshit, Morne passed the ball behind him and that is a fact, evidenced by youtube footage for anyone to see.


JJ is our best 13 prospect since Gerber and that is down to his speed and feet......he has set a new benchmark for 13 play........Fourie will never live with him........by France we will be back to JJ at 13 unless Meyer is more of an idiot than I already think he is 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7792
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 01:35:04
Jeez Dave you have made a mountain out of a Savea pimple. The simple, naked truth is, we would have missed no points if JJ hadn't played in the last 5 RC matches. He neither scored nor created anything. He may have looked beautiful to you but it amounted to nothing, nada, zilch.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8491
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 01:54:06
Yeah and had Willie gathered his chip kick after JJ put him in space......that would have been 5 points........but the 5 points that should have materialised was after the Savea beat and JJ putting Willie into space, only to have Morne spill the ball going over the try line......a simple 5 points if ever there was......beautifully set up by JJ.


So are you saying JJ never set Kirchner up for his try against Oz......that's within the 5 RC matches you are talking about.......but lets be a little more adventurist and move it back to the last 6 RC games and you will find JJ scored a try......if we push it to 3 tests before that, you will find that JJ had scored 3 more!


As for the Savea beat, it was better than anything we have seen from a Bok back in years......it does not get better than attacking a defenders inside shoulder and then leaving him for dead on the outside.......its just what we want in a test 13......all in that Savea mountain


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11891
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 07:25:43

Saffex

 

I am with Mozart in this case - move JJ to he wing and leave Fourie at 13.  My reasons for that is completely different form Mozart thinking on the issue though.

 

I think that both Pietersen and Fourie was desperately poor on Saturday.  Meyer is now in serious trouble - the same trouble he was in last year - when he selected Steenkamp at prop and De Jongh as an option to play at outside center.   He has limited options for Sunday against the Scots and those are the following:-

 

*  He cannot play the two Japanese club players at 13 and 14 - together they are a really poor option - separately they may just make it against weak opposition.   So either one of the two must be left out.

 

*  In his last two tests the robotic Morne Steyn in fact was ridiculously poor and he is unlikely to play on Saturday - so a solution has to be found.

 

*   Since Goosen has had very limited match time over the past eight months - his only option is to move  Lambie to 10.   Let me add here that the Morne groupies have shouted and screamed how poor Lambie was on Saturday - but other than two drop kicks he missed - they could not find any real foundation to criticize him.   As a last resort Mozart invented a lie about two cross kicks launched by Lambie in the Springbok half of the field - the cross kicks did take place, but was in the Welsh half. 

 

*   That leaves Meyer with two problem positions - namely at full back and the number 14 wing.

 

*   He could play Aplon at full back - but when Aplon was previously selected to represent SA - he was not up to standard.   Was good on CC level - but his defence on Super 15 level was poor - so there is no real future in that one.

 

*   So where to now  - the other full back candidate is Kirchner - but I think after the Ellis Park fiasco Kirchner seems to be out of favour.

 

*  The most likely option is Le Roux - whose perfect performance on Saturday at full back was admirable.

 

*  That leaves us with the 14 wing selection.  I think Pietersen was so slow and out of form that he is not an option.  So where to now.   The only way open is to move Engelbrecht to wing - since Le Roux will not be available.

 

*   Retain Fourie at 13 - since the serious question marks about his performance on Saturday could perhaps be addressed.   I think he will fail again - but it will be better to fail against the Scots than against the French.

 

So the backline will probably be the following:-

 

15 le Roux, 14  Engelbrecht,  13  Fourie,  12  De Viliers, 11  Habana, 10 Lambie,  9 Pienaar

 

The backline bench should be 21 Goosen, 22 Serfontein 23 Pietersen.              


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1719
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 08:08:32
 

JJ just doesn’t have the all round game to be an effective test player. 


Not at wing and most definitely not at center. It’s best for the team they send him home.


He has a little pace but that I’m afraid does not make him a test player.


A wing needs a few additional skills. He has none of them. Can't kick, can't step, poor under the high ball, doesn't look for work, shoddy defender ... it's a wonder he's on tour at all.


Leave JP right where he is. Jaque as well. Play Lambie at 10 and Willie at 15. Bring Serfontein on in the last twenty.


We need to see a little more at lock. Bring the best test lock we have into the starting 15 and blood him properly. Scotland is the perfect nation to do this. He's one for the future. He "man shamed" Etzebeth and I'm confident he'll do the same to the Scottish locks.


Our front row also needs a few questions answered. I would retain Malherbe against the Scots and play Coenie at loosehead.


Only change I would make in the back row is replace Kolisi with Coetzee.




clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11891
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 08:34:23

Cleancut

 

I know you dislike Engelbrecht intensely - but is Jaque Fourie any better?   Other than him being off-side in the try case and would have been penalized by most referees, he was an absolute disgrace on Saturday.   The way Davies ran around him - without even a vague attempt by him to make a tackle - gave me the creeps.  For the rest he produced nothing in attack or defence.

 

I agree with you about giving Fourie a further chance to show whether he can improve in performance  - but I do believe we are not going anywhere in his case.  We need a 13 - but it seems as if we are dealing with hopeless cases and can only get hopefully something out of the Super 15 next year.

 

Just one question though.  JP was below par in Super 15 this year and was very slow on Saturday.   In the latter regard he deteriorated badly in Japan and was slow as a carthorse.  What hope is there for him in retaining him for the next game?  Does he not rather need to get back in proper physical shape before we play him again?  

   


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 08:53:32
 Rather run around him than straight through him ey Mike..JJ would have had the pace to get to him but then what? Pat him on his back ala Barrett...Fourie is slowing up but still a better option than JJ..
We looking kak at 13!! Can Dave's son play 13??


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1719
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 09:37:29
 
Nah ... I seriously doubt that. His soft flabby butt would hit the back of his knee when running and could cause a serious injury to the poor dear.

Good of you to consider him though, Logic!!

The only reason I would have Jaque in place of JJ is cause he brings some serious experience to the park and isn't a defensive liability. Yes he didn't have the best of matches, especially the first 15 minutes ... BUT ... I'd still have him on at thirteen way before I select that talentless chump ol Dimple Butt Dave loves so much.

Other than that I would much prefer Serfontein be thrown into the deep end and told to swim. Especially against the Scots.

We have seen this kid perform at junior level. He is a talent like I haven't seen too often and should have been playing for the Bokke ages ago.



Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 09:51:05
 Maybe it is time..Maybe they cant hold off on Serfontein too much longer..The answer may have been under their nose all the time..

CC, I just ask about Dave's son because Dave has already earmarked a handful of his boys to represent England in the future so I thought maybe his son could rather invest in SA...His father has an "awesome" rugby brain and even gives provincial coaches advice on players to look out for as he has done the new Griquas coach..


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1719
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 10:13:10
 
Now that you mentioned it ... is it a mere coincidence that the Griquas were relegated to the 1st division so soon after Stupid stepped in?

Hmmmmm ... interesting!!!

Goes to show ... he seems to have an uncanny knack of turning everything he touches to shit!!


 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11891
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 14:34:50

 Boklogic

 

A slow player on defence is as bad as a fast player with tackling deficiencies.  Seriously now - I am looking to next year Super 15 and in particular at De Allende as a possible answer.   He is a deadly and hard tackler and has the speed to play at 13.    Very hard nut to bring down in traffic and he is a playmaker as well.

 

He is still very young - but with an awesome physique and with further experience may be the answer to our no 13 woes.

 

There are other candidates as well without the baggage carried by Engelbrecht and Fourie - for instance Stokkies Hanekom - so lets just hope we find a solution next year to that vexing problem.     


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1719
RE: Move JJ to wing against Scotland
November 12, 2013, 15:17:58
 
There are a few quality players available at center.

Getting them into the mix is another story.

 


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