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7159 Topic: You just can't beat intellect...
Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 617
You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 12:50:03

The third try showcased exactly what we are missing if we persist with Pienaar and JJ. Du Preez has extraordinary cerebral faculty and sends a clever chip down the touchline, but Fourie, in his usual way, sniffs an opportunity and perfectly scoops a pin-point pass into the chest of Du Preez who is off and running unchallenged. All from nothing. Never would this have happened had Pienaar being there, instead it would have been sent route one to Alberts or punted wearily up-field. Certainly, the robotic JJ does not possess Fourie's hound-like sense for opportunity. We look a much better and ulltimately more cohesive unit with these two back. More solid.

Then there was the Boks first try, which was very satisfying in how it was created. The Box Formation with two players shadowing in behind the first two; the first two fixing the midfield and the two in behind ready for a wide play. Morne could very well have sent it to be crashed first, but he rightly sensed the time was ripe for something more. This was started first and foremost by Morne making the right decision. A decision that Lambie would never make.

So in the end, three players who were castigated as hasbeens and never-will-bes are making the difference. All three possessing superior rugby brains than the younger whelps who just can't quite catch up with their reputation.


Rooinek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1376
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 13:14:35
Sun-Tzu, I think you're confusing "cerebral faculty" with "rugby instincts" but also, please note that while it was a nice try, Jaque Fourie played the ball from an offside position and if it had been referred, it would have been disallowed.


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 617
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 13:20:01
True, Fourie was a step ahead of Du Preez but that bears no relevance on what I said. And you misconstrue instinct with intelligence. Instinct is a pre-set though pattern that can never deviate. A Great White will instinctively pick out a seal-like shape out as a target, a player with ball in hand who creates something from nothing has to think quickly on his feet to weigh up many factors in a fraction of a second. If you want to see instinct in action on a rugby field then watch Pienaar, Lambie or the robotic JJ. They who instinctively repeat the same pattern endlessly and without much thought.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7591
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 14:32:33

What crap, so the fact that Fourie is now past it and looks like a donkey on the park, we should stick with him so that he might come up with one great fluke a game.......wow, that really is inspirational stuff.........talk about short sighted and stupidity of the highest regard.

 

Yeah lets stick with Fourie at 13!!!


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 617
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 14:41:59
 Fourie certainly is not at his very best, yet, but he offers what JJ cannot. Fourie is far more intelligent and with a real rugby brain. He has a good sense for opportunity and organizes the defence. What does JJ bring? Flat track speed? It's not good enough. Fourie will do nicely for now, until someone is able to take the 13 jersey and make their own through higher standards. That's the message Meyer is sending out, you won't get a Bok cap just because you are younger. Its reckless stupidity to persist with a player that has been so hopelessly outclassed. The fact that Meyer brought Fourie back tells you exactly what lengths he needed to go to in order to shore up the team. JJ will be gone just as Taute and this conversation will be a distant memory, so I wouldn't get so heated if I were you.


Just_win

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3296
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 14:56:35
Sun-Tzu: you are beginning to to & talk like our good mate Mozart. Yes, very Mozartesque :ermm:  


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 15:09:56

 Sun-Tsu

 

It went straight over your head - does it not?   If he was on-side  with his donkey pace Fourie would never have gotten to the ball and thus be able to make the pass to Du Preez.   The fact that the ref made a mistake and did not see him being off-side and secondly never call for a video review - gifted the Springboks a try that never should never have been and in the case of most other referees.   You cannot praise a person who obviously was off-side and could have caused serious problems if he was in fact blown up by the referee. 

 

Fourie was an absolute embarrassment for the whole game - the way Davies ran past him without even an attempted tackle was a farce - in fact the worst performance  by any SA 13 for years.  He is unfit and slower than a cart horse - so any future with him is impossible to contemplate.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1308
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 15:43:47
 
The only embarrassment suffered was yours, Mike ... as you watched Alberts, Flip, JP, Du Preez and Jaque show you up as a complete ignorant fool ... so please save the lecture ... you are already the laughing stock ...



Just_win

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3296
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 15:51:23
Clevermike: Everyone takes their shots at you but you are not deterred. Without your contrary opinions what would there be but boring agreement.  Good on ya mate!


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 15:55:04

Fury was offside....so what? We are not judging the legalities here, we are commenting on a moment of magic.

 

As Fury gets the ball the move is dead....the Welsh have him totally surrounded. He takes the ball superbly and in the same motion turns, and then Flips (er flips) a perfect pass to F du Preez who is at full pace....not slowing down. Both players sensed the opportunity and executed brilliantly. If either of them were a fraction off in their timing it doesn't happen

 

And the stone heads on this site, so absorbed in protecting their ex ante bias ....try and negate this piece of magic. Do they actually enjoy watching the Boks win, one wonders!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 16:14:45

Mozart

 

Get it through your thick skull  - Fourie was poor in the whole game and being off-side he was poor in this case as well.   His pace is the factor.   If the ref blew him up - where would the Springboks have ended up - in their own 25.   Is his moment of magic to be too slow witted for him to know when he is off-side or not?   When that type of thing happened in a game - it is better not to recognise it as an advent for the future.  He is bound to fail then as he should have on Saturday.  

 

  


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 16:14:46

Mozart

 

Get it through your thick skull  - Fourie was poor in the whole game and being off-side he was poor in this case as well.   His pace is the factor.   If the ref blew him up - where would the Springboks have ended up - in their own 25.   Is his moment of magic to be too slow witted for him to know when he is off-side or not?   When that type of thing happened in a game - it is better not to recognise it as an advent for the future.  He is bound to fail then as he should have on Saturday.  

 

  


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 16:18:06
 Pig_s_head : big black pig Vietnamese outdoors


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5484
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 17:36:16
fourie was crap all game, the only time he was noticed was when he was offside, but i agree with all the pro fourie supporters, lets hope meyer sticks with fourie for the majority of the Boks games.

fingers croseed hes there next year to play against the All Blacks, i would really enjoy the All Blacks beating the Boks in all the tests again for the 3rd year in a row, 8-)


Sun-Tzu

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 617
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 17:46:09
 You worry yourself about the World Cup blowout, Conrad Smith. Though with McCheat the main threat is extinguished, namely that of fair play.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 18:18:12
Sushi Keep your focus a little closer in....the Poms loom. 


Xtramick

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 77
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 19:16:26
Fourie was very average and had one moment from an offside position. He is still no more than a stop gap selection in the squad. Lets hope we have some players playing 13 who are in form next year, otherwise we have a position of weakness. JJ has the attributes and potential but he is not yet a trustworthy finished article. I hoped he would get some gametime up north in the 13 position. More material then to judge him on 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 19:34:36
Mick these guys who don't enjoy contact in the tackle never change. JJ reminds me of Pierre Spies, tackling is just not natural to him. It seems obvious to try Serfontein at 12 and JdV at 13. Trouble is Jean never shines in the 13 jersey, he is a way better 12.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 20:53:58

Mozart

 

Looking at the game on Saturday  there is fierce competition in the backlinen who is to be the the backline replica of Pierre Spies:-

 

1.   Front of the line is Morne Steyn with his faulty technique and backslapping tendencies.

 

2    In serious competition is Jaque Fourie - he avoided contact with Davies like a plague.

 

3    JJ Engelbrcht a poor third - in some respects the same defective technical technique of Steyn - minus the backslapping component applied by Steyn,  but without desperate efforts like Fourie in trying to avoid contact with the opposition 13 (Davies).

 

On looking at the game again - I think that Wales lost the game when Davies went off so early.   If he stayed on the tackle avoidance efforts of Fourie would certainly have resulted in a number of tries for the Welsh. 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 21:06:14
Oh how convenient ....the Boks were up by 10 points to 6 when Davies departed but Wales would have won if he hadn't. Just so you could say I might have been right?  Man you are a pathetic case....probably the most pathetic case.


Xtramick

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 77
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:14:01
I tend to agree with your assessment mozart but i still have hope. People acquire and improve skills on a daily basis. On another note you cant make any comment then Mike jumps in with Morne Steyn hatred. 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:20:54

In the short time he was on the pitch Morne kicked a penalty from almost the 10 metre line (any school boy could have landed that according to the OOM), landed two routine conversions, got the Boks on the Welsh line by going for the corner, eschewing the goal kick and launched Habana for the JdV try, when the natural play would have been to kick.

 

But the OOM claims he contributed nothing.


Xtramick

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 77
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:26:40
Even if he concedes to those contributions he will remind you of the Ellis Park test and the super rugby semi-final. Now that i have mentioned it i hope he doesnt repeat it 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7591
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:29:49
Moz your new found love for Fourie is endearing......the words 'moment of magic' would never have featured in the days you were an Adi fan and no doubt had wee de Jongh been on tour.......Fourie would have taken his usual beating from you.


Its all a bit fickle Moz


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:35:22

I think it's safe bet we will hear about Morne at Ellis Park again, sans the bit that says Morne made the most backline tackles and his success ratio at 64% was considerably better than the average success ratio at 51%. And if you look at Steyn's misses, they were mostly situations where he was making last ditch desperation lunges eg on Ben Smith.

 

The OOM has no sense of context.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:37:39
Fickle is a bit harsh Dave....flexible is better. But you are essentially right, if we had a real centre available I could easily lose Fury.


Xtramick

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 77
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:40:19
I can definitely applaud Steyn time and again but he isnt much of a favourite of mine. There is nothing that makes him stand out but given the current state of flyhalves i dont mind his selection. Im sure you are going to hear that you are a liar and made that up to support your argument 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7591
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:46:52
Well Moz you have been a harsh critic of Fourie over the years and 'moment of magic' and Fourie just dont go hand in hand with you and Fourie. Fourie was pretty damn poor on Sat and you finding positives in the guy is clutching at straws and has everything to do with your anti JJ.


JJ is the only viable test option we have at 13 given how good he has been this year and in particular against the best side in the game where he comprehensively outplayed Conrad Smith.


My guess is clueless Meyer is having a good look at what Fourie, JP and Bakkies have to offer. I hope that Fourie starts at 13 again, just so that we can get confirmation of just how shit he is these days.


When it comes to France......its going to be the opposite of your original call where you had JJ starting against Wales and Fourie taking control by France. 


Xtramick

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 77
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 11, 2013, 23:54:07
Saffex despite your adamant support of JJ you must surely realise that he has areas of improvement. To me he is currently our first choice and I see great attacking ability there. He is quick and can step and beat at pace. For me the two areas he has to work on are his tackle technique and his ability to create space. If someone else appears to play with all the skills consistently he wont be my number one choice anymore except if exibits those qualities obviously 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7591
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 00:49:27
Xtra......his tackling stats are no worse than Jean's so I dont get what the issue is with his defence......its been clouded by his two misses.....Bosch and Barrett, but circumstances dictated those misses......it had nothing to do with one on one misses.


Ability to create space.......well we saw that when he put Kirchner away for his try against Oz.......we saw that when he put Willie into space against the Kiwi's, with Willie chipping ahead and nearly gathering to score, we then saw him put Jean into space down the touchline, only to have Jean slip when he tried to step........but there is no better example of his ability to create space when he beat Savea with pure skill on the outside and putting Willie into space with a pin point pass to his wrong side........sorry Xtra, there is little more JJ needs to do to deliver in the creating space department.


The biggest concern is the pathetic treatment by Meyer of our two best attacking backs in JJ and Willie.........it serves to confirm what a conservative man he is. Bok rugby is going to struggle under Meyer......the man is not an advocate of creativity and flair......hence Louw at 6, Morne at 10, Jean at 12 and now Fourie at 13......its boring shit


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 01:29:07

One has to ultimately live with the coach's choices Dave. I find myself lucky in that his views generally aren't a big problem for me.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7591
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 02:09:28
I agree Moz but I just cant live with him selecting Fourie straight into the starting side and discarding JJ and Willie......despite what you think of JJ, he had his best test in his last one against the Kiwi's and has had scant reward for it.........but even more bizarre was his axing of Willie......our best attacking player. Its just piss poor player management......how can players respect a man like this? Is he schizophrenic?


I'd love to live with his decisions but I cant and if they continue in this vain we have no hope in hell of ever seriously challenging the Kiwi's.


Cloudy

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2258
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 03:29:52
Hey justwin if only they could all debate like Mozart and mike lol and just to change the theme of it all.......I'm a big fan of Food Safari and they are doing Poland tonight.  Pine fresh mushrooms, a sensational duck, huge variety of smoked sausages, pickled gherkins, bigos, pierogi and an unbeatable cheesecake.  There you go.....now who wouldn't turn down a Jay Jay and a Fury for a bit of all that :)


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 04:34:48
Let me offer as a alternative the Petrus chocolate sphere. A tenniis ball sized sphere wrapped in wafer thin dark chocolate, floating in a milky foam. Inside honeycomb ice cream, with honeycomb chunks. Then poured on top, hot liquid milk chocolate which melts the ball before your very eyes. The best dessert in London.


Cloudy

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2258
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 05:21:01
You had me at honeycomb :)


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 06:10:48

Mozart

 

Your idea that pigs are the best way of dealing with issues where your arguments have been proved to be absolute pig shit are really laughable.  

 

Lets face facts - you have a new found love for Fourie at 13 and pigs - because according to you he is he best thing that happened to the Springbok rugby since AD Jacobs - which of course is absolute pig shit.   He is wonderful because he replaced Engelbrecht on Saturday and the one-eyed one incident junkie is back in full force.

 

In one of the incidents both his heroes Fourie and Morne Steyn is involved.   In the first case - the confusion on the face of the utterly beaten Fourie by Davies  is the joke of the week.   He has not seen anything like that in the two years he has been playing touch rugby in Japan.   After all if you touch a player he is supposed to go down - problem is he was not there to even touch Davies - because he is so slow it is unbelievable.

 

That brings me to the second incident when Davie ran past the defence defective Fourie and there was Morne who used the backslapping defence technique again - just to prove that he has developed it into an art form.   Then - according to Mozart - the despicable Lambie had to make a proper tackle on Davies to stop a potential try.

 

However, there is one thing that is evident and that is the defence of your other hero Morne Steyn - he does not need Fourie to teach him anything about touch rugby - Morne knows it all.   In the Barrett try issue he slapped Barrett on his back  and instead of going down in terms of the principles of touch rugby - it allows Mozart to argue that the slap was sufficient to force Barrett to run outward towards Engelbrecht - so voila - Engelbrecht miss tackle is the sole and only reason for Barrett scoring his try.

 

When it was pointed out to Mozart that the injury to Davies save the day for Fourie insofar his defence is concerned Mozart reacted a follows.  Suddenly the fact that the Springboks scored a wonderful try through a break by Habana, passing to  Du Plessis and ultimately to Jean de Villiers - is used to cover up the putrid and non-existent defence of Fourie when Davies ran past him twice as was pointed out in the preceeding paragraphs.   Please note that  Fourie had n part whatsoever in the scoring of that try.    As a rule logic on his part is always non-existent when Mozart is confronted with facts - but this one really takes the cake.

 

The same pig shit approach on the part of Mozart was in evidence when Sasue pointed out that the display of Fourie on Saturday was desperately poor.   He was advised by Mozart to concentrate on the upcoming test on Saturday between England and the All Blacks - as if that has anything to do with the poor display by Fourie on Saturday.

 

The one-incident junkie took over when Fourie - from an off-side position was able to get to a ball - gets possession of the ball and flip-passed it Du Preez to score his try.   Out of the window goes the real fact that if he was on-side the real speed deficiency on the part of Fourie would never have enabled him to get to he ball and collect it.   The mistake by the referee not to blow him up for being off-side or consulting the TV ref on the issue is ignored.   This incident is now suddenly used to ignore the deficiencies showed  by Fourie throughout the match and to portray his glorious return to SA Rugby.   Forget the illegality of the issue - something referees would normally pick up - and just use the incident to illustrate how Fourie is now the answer to SA rugby problems in finding an acceptable no 13.  Anybody - irrespective how poor he is - is welcome provided that his surname is not Engelbrecht. 

 

If Fourie is played in future - one thing is assured - and that is that we will be in deeper trouble than we were ever before in backline defence in tests against strong opposition.   Mozart calls Engelbrecht a turnstile in respect of defence - he may be that - but the speed-deficient Fourie is not a turnstile - he is an open gate.  

 

That is why I am in favour of playing Fourie against the weakish Scottish team - his poor performance will despite their weakness be exposed again - but other players will be able to save the situation against the Scots and we will survive despite his deficiencies,   However, that will not always be possible in future and we will  be saved serious embarrassment in future tests.

 

NOW PLEASE SAVE FACE AND BE EVEN MORE PIG-BESOTTED BY POSTING ANOTHER PIG PHOTO IN RESPONSE - IT WILL REALLY SHOW YOU UP AS THE BIGGEST FOOL WHO EVER CONTRIBUTED TO THIS SITE.    

 

 

    

 

           


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 614
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 06:28:23
 Have you seen the little piggies
crawling in the dirt?
And for all the little piggies
life is getting worse,
always having dirt to play around in.

Have you seen the bigger piggies
in their starched white shirts?
You will find the bigger piggies
stirring up the dirt,
always have clean shirts to play around in.

In their styes with all their backing
they don't care what goes on around.
In their eyes there's something lacking
what they need's a damn good whacking.

Everywhere there's lots of piggies
living piggy lives.
You can see them out for dinner
with their piggy wives
clutching forks and knives to eat their bacon.


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 614
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 06:31:38
 Have you seen the little piggies
crawling in the dirt?
And for all the little piggies
life is getting worse,
always having dirt to play around in.

Have you seen the bigger piggies
in their starched white shirts?
You will find the bigger piggies
stirring up the dirt,
always have clean shirts to play around in.

In their styes with all their backing
they don't care what goes on around.
In their eyes there's something lacking
what they need's a damn good whacking.

Everywhere there's lots of piggies
living piggy lives.
You can see them out for dinner
with their piggy wives
clutching forks and knives to eat their bacon.


Just_win

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3296
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 07:36:22
Hi Cloudy: Poland is not known for it's food but what you are describing is the best of it :)


Xtramick

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 77
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 09:19:10
Saffex what i would like to see from JJ is him creating space consistently. MOST of those examples were in one match, perhaps team tactics inhibit him. To win me over completely he has to do it in super rugby. Again team tactics may dictate that he doesnt always have the opportunity. I may be a bit hard on him but i see heaps of talent. His tackle stats arent that bad but he seems to miss crucial ones that directly lead to points for the opposition. That is what the 13 channel is like and he will always have heat on him there 


Cloudy

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2258
RE: You just can't beat intellect...
November 12, 2013, 09:40:14
Can you make a boilup over there justwin?  If you can then that's all the food you need lol

That's funny sebastien, keeping right into the scheme of things :)


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