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6801 Topic: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
mozart

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The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 16:49:32

Let's start with Jaco Taute the poster child for early promotion. After a bright start against Oz Taute played a series of disastrous tests for the Boks. Replaced by de Jongh ...he said he wanted to concentrate on fullback. Injury cut short much of his S15 season, but he was clearly a reserve at the Stormers. Did nothing to suggest he has anything to offer but an inside step and the occasional slow as treacle, cut.

 

 

Mvovo is fading as his obvious match reading limitations are accepted as a fact.

 

 

Rhule can't tackle, I no longer see him in everybody's future team

 

Willie is the one huge success story this year. Hardly a totally new player, he is none the less a test debutant. His vision and deception are the major reason we now strike with our backs. Jean has become very hard to put away ala Mortlock, and Habana is a ruthless finisher....but Willie is the locksmith. And I trust him to make the crucial tackles as well...many of his misses are highly ambitious tackle attempts on kickoffs.

 

JJ had a better 2013 than 2012....but he had a better early 2013 than late 2013. As the opposition became tougher his robotic aspects and poor defence came to the fore. He does provide us with dramatic acceleration of the movement, and he will finish well. But is he a long termer, time and defence will tell.

 

Jordaan started the year ahead of JJ but a disastrous confrontation with Fruean set him back. This reminded me of Januarie running over Brent Russell...it looked that bad, and it happened twice. Injury provided a welcome cloak over his year.

 

Serfontein is a good example of why we shouldn't rush these youngsters. Too much time on the bench robbed him of match sharpness...and failings when he came on robbed him of confidence. You could hardly recognize the kid in the Cheetahs debacle last week. But he has to learn an inside step and charge is not going to cut it at top level.

 

Jantjies was a basket case at the Stormers....he robbed Taute of his opportunity as well, because the Stormers had to play Joe at 15 to kick. A sort of junior clone of the Quaalude, he is now thoroughly understood....and his weak defence will continue to hurt. He plays better for the Lions where he is more of the man...and he will have good provincial games. I doubt his nerve will hold at test level.

 

Goosen is the ever fading mirage. A flyhalf  who is as fast as a wing, and can pot them from 60 metres. but with a body held together with paper clips. A year later we know no more about Goosen. The hope is, like Jean, he will get some durability as he gets older. Perhaps we can then see if the dream matches the reality.

 

Reinach and van Zyl, who looked strong early in the S15, tended to fade, in part because of injuries. Then F du Preez returned and demonstrated how far they still have to go.

 

Kitshoff is a fine example of how to develop a youngster. Not rushed into the test team he has continued to grow as a player and in confidence. He looks ready to be given his chance soon.

 

Coenie as I wrote elsewhere today, still looks more like a loosehead. The Bok scrum switches from dominating to modestly dominated when he comes on. I doubt he is a better loosehead than Kitshoff though.

 

Malherbe disappeared for a long while with an injury. He looked pretty solid before that, but he certainly needs to prove himself.

 

Steff looked good against the Stormers last weekend, perhaps the best I've seen him. He is already anointed as Eben's long term partner. But if Bekker returns, he is the physically more imposing player. Just how much of Steff's play is talent and how much is the energy of youth, remains to be seen

 

Lood is another youngster supposedly destined for greatness. But I think it's mostly the name and the hair style.

 

Coetzee is on a reverse journey, from starter, to bench, to squad member. A nice player who does many good things, but doesn't have the horsepower to impose at test level....demonstrated by the way he fades in really tough S15 matches.

 

Lappies....see Coetzee

 

 

Kolisi is a strong bloke...as we saw with him holding up Nonu and busting through Hoare. But I was disappointed to see him trotting back during the halftime try. Is he cut from the same cloth as some of the French loosies, who play a similar game....or just a small chap who occasionaly flashes. Don't know yet.

 

Arno Botha has great credentials and started brightly for the Boks, but we never saw him against the top international teams. At this stage he looks promissing.


Shezza

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 18:28:48
Lappies is the best young loosie we have and your WP biased opinion has shone through.


mozart

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 18:52:14
There are four WP players on my list...Taute, Kitshoff, Malherbe and Kolisi. I'd say I was  negative on Taute, neutral on Kolisi and Malherbe, and modestly positive on Kitshoff. That seems somewhat balanced. What makes you conclude I have a WP bias?

By the way Lappies will be 25 when he plays again after this weekend.


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 19:03:20

Mozart 

 

A long item with very pertinent misinterpretations showing open dislike of virtually all younger players is leading you astray once again:-

 

Taute

 

You really misrepresented the Taute - Stormers issue by near to 100%.   Taute was NOT the Stormers second choice full back - but they were forced to play Pietersen since they needed a reliable goal kicker after the initial dismal goal kicking performance by Jantjies.   That is the real issue here.   Taute got injured - otherwise he would have been the full back after Van Aswegen came onto the scene.

 

Jordaan

 

Please go to  ESPN Scrum and check your facts again.   Jordaan only missed one tackle on Fruean - not two - would call what you wrote a deliberate misrepresentation of facts.   Jordaan's defensive stats of 6% tackle misses throughout all the games he played in Super 15 and he was more than 4 times better in defence than De Jongh and nearly 3 times better than Engelbrecht.  Hell it really is disgusting to make the kind of comment you made  on injuries to players.   Jordaan did not show as much on attack as he should have - but the  whole Sharks  backline showed very little in Super 15 this year, basically because of the huge injury list they suffered from.

 

Goosen

 

Crap comment again - he was injured early in the competition - but showed up well when he played for the Cheetahs.   Remember the Cheetahs won one tour game in New Zealand (the Highlanders) and also beat the Waratahs in Australia.  Yes - his injuiry problems is a worry - but he started off too early to my mind and hopefully will be available to replace the hopeless Morne Steyn.

 

De Jager

 

You have no reason to make the remarks you made.  This youngster was very good this year in Super 15 - and a mile better than the hopeless Juandre Kruger.   Go and check the stats and you may find out something.

 

Coetzee

 

His strong point is his high tackle count.    He is an average ball carrier and not very effective in either break down ball recovery and line outs.  Was rather disappointing this year and I agree with you he was not really up to standard.

 

Labuschagne

 

Absolute tripe as per normal when you discuss Labuschagne - first of all why do you dislike this guy so much - it seems almost like hatred.   Labuschagne was the best loosie in all aspects of play  in all teams in  Super 15 in all aspects of loosie play - tackle count - breakdown ball recovery and turnovers - line breaks and line out takes.   His stats were better than those of Messam and Read in all mentioned facets.   In any event he is a completely different player than Coetzee.    What else do you expect from him?   He is ten times the loosie Alberts will ever be - since the latter is totally ineffective in most items listed.

 

Kolisi

 

Despite A girl's high opinion of him there are factors that worries me about him.  He would have one or at most two ball carries per game and vvanish for the rest of the game  - his tackle count is very low for a loosie and he does not recover balls in tackle situations and breakdowns, while he is useless in line out play.   Limited capacity in virtually all aspects of loosie play - but he is better than Alberts in those things he does do.  I do not think he will develop into a top loosie.

 

Agree with you on other aspects and players listed.

 

Why don't you also start a thread about existing Springboks who failed this year - that would show even-handedness on your part.    

 

 

 

 


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 19:17:05

Mozart

 

Just an aside.   Experts will tell you that physically rugby players are at their peak in the age group 25 to 28.   A  minority peak earlier and in exceptional cases some exceeds that age - especially backline players.  Labuschagne reached his peak at 24 - which is not at all late in his career.


mozart

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 19:31:09
Great loosies arrive early...Schalk, McCaw, Juan Smith, George Smith etc, etc. By the way I reject many of your points eg the Robbie Fruean domination of Jordaan....he ran over him twice, once for a try. 


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 19:52:34

Mozart

 

Just one thing - is there a law prohibiting Labuschagne from peaking at 24 or what?  Why no comment on my question as to what else he should do to prove his capacity as a player?

 

Insofar as Jordaan is concerned your memory is either deliberately or through malice faulty as is evident from the following stats for the relevant game:

 

Jordaan0/000/6/9380320 8/10/000/0

 

 

Fruean 0/0 0 0/12/14 46 1 2 4 1 1/1

 

Fruean never scored a try in the game you are referring to - none at all.  And you also misrepresented the missed tackle issue completely.  The missed tackle was in traffic and Jordaan obviously used the wrong technique in that case.  Fruean was tackled by the next player and a maul resulted.   You would notice also that there were no other missed tackles by Jordaan - who tackled him five times afterwards and he missed a tackle on Jordaan as well.   You are not reflecting what really happened and you are wrong in this case.   In the whole of Super 15 in the 10 games he played in Jordaan missed FOUR TACKLES in total (the one on Freuan being 1)  - so in all other games he played in he missed only 3 tackles.  Sorry but your comments at the time was thast it was a career-defining occurrence - but never in the career of any sportsman has one incident in one match being career- defining - so your prejudice reigns supreme once more. 

    


mozart

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 20:01:11
I never said he scored a try, his break which left Jordaan on the deck resulted in a try.  On the second occasion as I pointed out at the time he made about 10 metres with Jordaan hanging on...and then offloaded. I consider that to be the same thing. Face it Oom he monstered Jordaan I'd simply point out to you I was very pro Jordaan after his S15 final last year. But since then he hasnt confirmed that potential. I am led by facts not loyalties.


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 20:15:31

Mozart

 

You do talk tripe at times you know - either that or you are deliberately misrepresenting facts.

 

About Jordaan you wrote as follows:-

 

"he ran over him twice, once for a try."  What else can one assume from that statement than that Freuan scored the try after "running over" Jordaan.   That fact is in any effect contradicted in toto by the ESPN stats quoted.

 

That was a total misrepresentation of the whole story.   The missed tackle of Jordaan was on the 10 meter line of the Sharks and what I said was exactly what happened.   There was no try scored from that missed tackle - and Jordaan did not get run over for a try later on.  He tackled Fruean on the Sharks 22 - but could not prevent an off-load by Fruean to Ellis and Ndungane missed the tackle on the latter - there was no there cover defence at all - and Ellis scored the try.

 

If you want to be honest - you should admit you were wrong in the relevant regard and not be fabricating things that NEVER HAPPENED.  


mozart

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 20:22:55
So he was run over once for a big break and failed to stop Fruean another time, and after carrying Jordaan for 10 metres Fruean offloaded for a try. Happy now?


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 20:34:06

Mozart

 

Still not true - You are talking crap from the start -  he did not drag Jordaan for ten meters.   Go and watch the game if you do not believe me.  And secondly there never was a "big break" as you said now in the case of the missed tackle - Fruean was tackled by the next forward he ran into 5 meters o - no real big break as you implied.   That is the fact of the case.

 

However, a vast difference and about 50% nearer to the truth than what you said before. but still false and biased beyond belief.


mozart

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 20:41:00
 No I think that's about right.....one time he left Jordaan on the deck...the other time he was hanging on for dear life, Fruean offloaded and they scored. Fruean dominated Jordaan.


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 20:47:23
Mozart

 You are now at last admitting that your initial comments are a fabrication. One missed tackle and 5 successful ones on the same player does not represent domination - it may however be that way in your prejudiced mind.

When are you going to comment on my question on what else you expect from Labuschagne - another player you run down constantly?


mozart

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 22:00:08

I'm admitting nothing....watch this at minute 00.20 and listen to the comments:

 

"he gets outside Jordaan and commits NDungane after that it's easy rugby"

 

"Fruean was the X factor"

 

"Fruean was immense in this half"

 

"It's all about Fruean getting outside Jordaan"

 

And that wasn't even the break where he left Jordone and dusted on the deck, because the try was narrowly averted and they only show the points.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-f4DuXrMg


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 17, 2013, 22:11:52

 

Balls - balls balls and Mozert BS all over.   Stick to facts and you may one day get it right.  Your initial  comments were BS from the start and you are getting worse and worse.   He had a run around Jordaan - but Jordaan caught him and tackled him  - are you really trying to BS everyone on this Board by fabrication of facts?

 

Listen to the NZ commentators and that would be what thy said.   But you are so biased you need to get some medicine - maybe that would help.


Saffex

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 00:37:19
Well for a start Taute said he wanted to concentrate on fullback for the Stormers as he saw that as his only chance of making the Stormers starting side given the Stormers had Bok centres in de Jongh and Jean......it had STUFF all to do with not wanting to play centre any longer. Taute had a good test against Oz at centre, a quite game against the AB's and a good test against Ireland......Meyer said it was his best. Meyer did not drop Taute, he went on record saying he was always going to give de Jongh game time against Scotland which he did, but Meyer then made the mistake of retaining de Jongh for the England test, where he was a complete flop. Taute is a class act but has been out for a year, so not possible to judge.


Mvovo is hardly a youngster these days


Yep Rhule has a tackling issue am sure time will sort that out as he is a quality attacking player


Willie is pure class, but should he be wing or fullback, given his lack of pure pace......Barrett caught him too easily and when JJ put him into space after beating Savea, his pace let him down. Willie looks better suited to 15 where he has played most his life.


JJ has been a massive find, his test against the AB shut all his detractors up. JJ is the best Bok 13 prospect since Gerber. You cant buy his pace and step at 13


Jordaan is a great little player but not physical enough for centre much like de Jongh is not. His future lies on the wing.


Serfontein looks equipped to surpass Jean but sadly Meyer is not giving him enough game time......the kid is pure class


Jantjies is on fire for the Lions at the moment, never settled at the Stormers as they stifled his flair.......he is the one kid that has that x factor......love his instincts......would have him in my Bok side ahead of Morne anyday.


Goosen is the best prospect we have had at 10 for decades......half a Goosen would be a better bet than Morne.


v/Zyl and Reinach both look test quality and what exactly did du Preez show them......I saw a great service but not a single break......du Preez was good but there was nothing special at all.


Kitshoff has come of age and has to be on the EOYT


I am yet to see Coenie struggle at tighthead this year, but we are not doing him a service by switching him each week.


Malherbe came of age in this years S15, sadly injury stepped in but its good to see him back

PSDT has looked great for a good year now, he has test star written all over him just as Eben did. PSDT is more physical than Bekker, by some distance. By the time Bekker returns, PSDT will have cemented his place next to Eben.


Lood has been one of the finds of the season, has test back-up lock written all over him as has Paul Willemse.


Coetzee will have a long career with the Boks, the only reason he fell out of favour as a starter was because Meyer thought he was being clever by playing him at 6......bit much to ask a 20 year old to play out of position and make an impression. He is better than the likes of Louw and Alberts


Labascagne has shown this year that he belongs in test rugby, better than any loosie than England have to offer except for Croft.


Kolisi showed in his last test that he belongs, he will be another with a long test career


Arno Botha has not played against the big test sides


These names and a good few others show what a good position SA rugby is in......we just need to see Meyer invest in these guys and discard the deadwood that lies in Kirchner, de Jongh, Morne, Pienaar, Vermaak, Steenkamp, Jandre Kruger, Franco, Louw, Spies and Alberts


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 06:51:11

A girl

 

Agree with you about most of your comments above - except Jantjies.   The latter has far too many negatives to be anywhere near the Springbok team.   

 

However, I think what Mozart wrote above is clear evidence of bias against certain players and he was fabricating things like it was unbelievable and so far away from the truth in most cases that it was really laughable.  

 

He makes false statements and when challenged either go quiet or start fabricating further things that never happened.   When asked clearly what he expected more than what Labuschagne did produce in Super 15  - he would not respond, because he was cornered. 

 

Problem with Mozart Is that if a player threaten one of his favourites in the Springbok team - he goes on the discrediting route against the upcoming player and then use deliberate denigration as a route.   That for instance is why he called Pieter  Steph Stephanie in his comments.   You can tract that trait through all his postings.

 

Engelbrecht is one example - despite what you said he does have some deficiencies but way less than what Mozart ascribed to him - and the reason is that he is keeping De Jongh out of contention.  Same with Jordaan.

 

A second example is Goosen.  Since he can find nothing negative - he will try every argument in the book to discredit him.   He has planted the seed because he wants to avert any potential threat to Morne like a plague.   You will find false comments on any game that Goosen played in like "he produce nothing in that game" coming to the fore.   The slightest mistake made by Goosen will become career-defining on the part of Mozart.   But the disastrous performance in the Ellis Park test by Morne will be papered over by phrases that he is the best kicker at goal in the world and that wipes out all Morne's negatives according to Mozart.

 

Du Toit is threatening the position of Kruger in the test team - so first effort was to  say that Du Toit - when he came off the bench in a game - was hyper-active and he would not last a full game.   When he played a full game in the next match, the hyper-active comments vanished - but it is back with us again in the above posting.   When performance did not work - the next issue was denigration through name-calling as mentioned earlier.

 

The above is just Mozart all over - he hates younger upcoming players with a vengeance and then fabricates reasons to discredit them if they in any way threaten his favourites in the Springbok team.   Game, set and match.   


Ceradyne

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 10:08:38
 "However, I think what Mozart wrote above is clear evidence of bias against certain players and he was fabricating things like it was unbelievable and so far away from the truth in most cases that it was really laughable. "

:D
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

RE: How long is Morne Steyn going to last at Stade Francais?


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 11:43:08

Ceradyne

 

Welcome back - and as per normal no comments on this thread - but harking back to rubbish you wrote previously.  How about  dealing with Morne's performance at Ellis Park for instance?   Not a word on that - just like Mozart's silence on that one.

 

Get real and start something by dealing with discussions under correct threads.   And just for the record if Morne at Stade Francais is as bad as he was Ellis Park - he won't last long there.

 

It is Friday and my day for leniency - so I will not describe what you are in reality - so lets get some decent rugby comments from you, please. 


Ceradyne

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 12:17:55
You are quite keen to start a new debate, yet you have no interest in finishing a previous one? What will happen if I enter into this one? The same as the previous one? You have already shown that you are not interested in any argument other than your own, and you would go to great lengths to twist the truth and if that doesn't work you just wonder away and start some new BS elsewhere.


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 12:29:24

Ceradyne

 

W might as well deal with Morne's latest debacle under this threat - so what is you comments n that one?   :'(:'(:'(


Ceradyne

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 13:08:16
 There we go again. Avoiding the issue as always. I don't trust you to be unbiased and objective. You have proven it over and over again. You see you have a major problem when it comes to your pet hates and that is what makes it impossible to debate with you. You would latch on to a single incident in a single game and you would build your entire opinion on your own opinion of what happened in the single incident. You are of the opinion that Morne Steyn is responsible for a try being scored against the Springboks and therefore his entire game is a debacle.

If you go back to the Stade game you had an opinion of what happened. I then went back to the game and gave you an account of what happened in the 20minutes that he was on the field, and you said that I was lying, and gave your opinion of what happened. You also said that I had it totally wrong as to what happened. I then posted a video clip for you and invited you on numerous occasions to not only show me exactly where and when I went wrong. To this day, your only reply was that I was lying. You have still not told me exactly where I lied, and you have still not given your minute by minute account of what happened.

Now you want me to debate the last test between the Boks and the ABs. You have to be hopping mad to think that I would see any point.


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 13:29:02

Ceradyne

 

I laugh my ass off.   Funny effort this one. Morne missed three tackles and all three resulted in tries for the AB's - and he made a fool of himself in not kicking out a ball as the siren was about to go off - another try.   Try again - you really are funny.

 

Not my opinion in this case - it is facts that was there for all to see.  


Ceradyne

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 14:10:53
 I knew you would not go back to the Stade game again. Can you tell me the times in the game when these atrocities by Steyn happened? I am not going to watch the entire game again. I have not watched it again at all because I just could not be bothered. So, please give me some idea, then I will watch those parts again and we can discuss it but on one condition. That we then go back to the Stade game as well. Deal?


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 14:56:48

Ceradyne

 

Still LMAO - still no comment on the Morne debacle.   Now back to the Stade Francais issue -  I said he missed two relieving line kicks - which you disputed - that is the crux of the matter.   I went on to say he has a history of buggering up badly in crunch games - like he did at Ellis Park and in the Super 15 semi and made the remark about how long he was going to last at the Club. 

 

You then went totally overboard to try and proof otherwise - and there was no actual evidence to prove that I was wrong - in the end I just won't discuss the issue any further with a nutcase Morne Steyn groupie.

 

Game, set and match.

 

Oh by the way - Morne cost us the game at Ellis Park - he was [removed]  in capital letter - just like he cost us the game at Dunedin  last year - just like he cost the Bulls' loss in the Super 15 semi.   Want any further proof of games Morne buggered up comprehensively?


mozart

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 14:57:11
In any case, of the 19  touted  youngsters, exactly one has made real contributions to the Boks this year.....Willie. Apart from the first Bargie game, JJ has been anonymous up till the last game....where his poor defence really cost us. The rest wait for another year. So it goes with the annual hysteria about youngsters. After a year or two many of these chaps will be forgotten and a new crop of youngsters will be touted as the greatest....and a very few of those will become test players.


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:03:05

Mozart

 

With respect the poor defence and rubbish play of experienced Springboks cost us more than the inexperienced ones did.   Why not replace the experienced players who under-perform game after game with younger players who have shown the experienced bull[removed]ters up on Super 15 level already? 


Ceradyne

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:04:31
 I have not commented because I wasn't watching the game that closely when it was  live. I had the whole family with me  and  did not pay much attention. I haven't watched it again and I have not recorded it. Now you want me to dissect it in the same  way that you have done? You have already proven that your account of what happens in rugby games cannot be trusted. So, what do you want me to do?

As for the Stade game. Now you are back  to talking utter BS. That is why you are not prepared to go back to that thread. Because then all your BS will be badly exposed again.


Ceradyne

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:06:57
 @Maaikie. "just like he cost us the game at Dunedin  last year" ........... Do you really want to go there? Again.........? The last time that you jumped onto that game and that statement you apologised to me for getting it wrong. Remember?


clevermike

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RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:16:29

Ceradyne

 

Excellent excuse.  You have not watched the game and never recorded it either - so I  must be misinterpreting what happened.   There was lengthy debates on the game and there is also the  ESPN Scrum stats as background.

 

My interpretation of what happened was confirmed by virtually all members - but Mozart who tried to blame the loss on Engelbrecht and went quiet on Morne.   That theory was debunked early on - so now you can go and sit in the corner - crying about how falsely people accuse Morne of poor play and that he is not guilty of all the accusations against him - but it will not help.  He was [removed] in capital letters - end of story..   

 

 

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8729
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:16:53

History of the Junior Springboks against touring teams. The Junior Boks won 3 of 14 matches at home.....in many cases against lesser players in the touring squads. Hardly a strong case for fast forwarding young players into the Boks. But perhaps we should select a Junior Bok team and have them play the Sharks, after they get thumped perhaps all this whining will stop.

 

DateInternational sideVenueScore
1955British and Irish LionsBloemfonteinLost 12-15
1958FrancePort ElizabethWon 9-5
1960New ZealandDurbanLost 6-20
1962British and Irish LionsPretoriaLost 11-16
1963AustraliaSpringsWon 12-5
1969AustraliaSpringsLost 17-27
1970New ZealandPotchefstroomLost 25-29
1976New ZealandPort ElizabethLost 15-21
1980South American JaguarsPretoriaLost 19-30
1980British and Irish LionsJohannesburgLost 6-17
1981IrelandPretoriaWon 18-15
1992New ZealandPretoriaLost 25-10
1997British and Irish LionsWellingtonLost 51-21
2009British and Irish LionsCape TownDraw 13-13


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3264
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:19:58
 As you wish. Now, can we try something else then. Give me the times that it happened, so I can download the game and watch it? And then, can we go back to your BS on the other thread.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12938
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:25:00

Mozart

 

How many younger players were in that list of tests you just flouted now?   Your argument is non-existent in the absence of any  proof as to the impact of younger players on test outcomes - and who fouled up most in those tests.

 

Hardly an argument on the issue of the test series of 2013  - and the present players - not so?

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12938
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:28:27

Ceradyne

 

I apologised because I was wrong about the time Meyer was replaced - not anything else.   By the time he was replaced Morne has missed 4 penalty kicks at goal and one conversion - 14 point gone missing.   Any justification for that by any chance?   He was dropped from the team since he was BS in capital letters in that game. 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3264
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:41:47
 Despite the kicks we were still  in with a chance in that game, but then Goosen stepped in....... and then we lost it. Now, unlike what you normally do, which is to pin a loss on one particular player, I am not saying that Goosen cost us that game. It does not mean that Steyn alone was responsible for loosing it either. It also does not mean that Steyn alone was reponsible or loosing the last test. It also does not mean that Steyn was half as crap as you want all of us to believe. Above all, it also does not meant that you are correct when give your opinion of Steyn. If you cannot even give an accurate account of what happened in a 20 minute part of a  game, even with the luxury of having a  summary and video clips in  front of you, how do you expect me to trust that you are accurate in what you are saying now.

My take on the Ellis Park test is that we were beaten by a better team. We had the pressure mounted on us and we were forced into making mistakes. You are harping on about Steyn missed tackles, but you are conveniently missing the same  amount of tackles that was missed by Le Roux. Why? Because you do not have Le Roux in your sights?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12938
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:49:16

Ceradyne

 

Hell - I have been hit by a wave of Bull[removed] emanating from you.   That really is unbelievable.   Anyway - I have never seen such a display of real BS as was the case in your latest post.

 

Mama  mia - I can understand now what is wrong with you - any Steyn groupie must be a nutcase.      


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9298
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 15:57:23
JJ's poor defence cost us, that just another load of bull[removed].......against the AB's in 2 tests, JJ made 12 tackles and missed one.......Moz the stats prove you are making things up.


JJ was one of our best players this year and Etzebeth, a youngster along with Willie were probably our best players in total.....which speaks volumes for needing more youngsters involved.


Its a bit difficult for the youngsters to contribute when they are not selected......instead we had to endure the old farts in Kirchner, Habana, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, du Preez, Jannie, Flip, Kruger, Louw and Vermeulen and look where that got us against the AB's.


If ever there was an indication of a need to change then look no further than the AB's results........as I have maintained from day one, Meyer does not have the right players on the field starting with Morne, closely followed by Kruger, Kirchner, Pienaar, Louw, Steenkamp, Franco and Alberts.


Bring in the youngsters like Taute, Serfontein, Goosen, Lambie, Hougaard, Kitshoff, Malherbe, Steph du Toit, de Jager, Kolisi, Botha, Elstadt, Coetzee and co.....one certainty is that this list has a FAR better look to it than Kirchner, Morne, Kruger and co


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8729
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 16:01:58

Morne tackled poorly in that test. I think the miss on Barrett was a weak reflex, but he had plenty of time to line up Ben Smith. The high tackle he made is part of a pattern in our rugby. How many handoffs do our guys have to see before they realize you can't go high from slightly behind and reaching, 5 metres from our line.

 

That said Morne also made 6 good tackles, more than any Bok back. In the tackling stakes our worst by far was Kirchner, followed by JJ, Willie and then Morne. The dart Willie made to try to intercept before the halftime try was disastrous.

 

Nobody tackled well among the backs....they were so careless it makes one think all the preparation was about attack.

 

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9298
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 16:08:19
 Moz you are speaking nonsense......the worst in that test was Morne, followed by Willie, Kirchner, Serfontein and Jean......JJ was last on the stats list......go check it out


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8729
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 16:13:55
JJ lost the RC that gets heavily weighted. But even if you wanted to go via the stats your ranking is a nonsense. As you can see Morne made 7 tackles and missed 4. Willie missed all 5 his tackles. Kirchner missed 2 out of 3.... a vast understatement. Morne was our most productive tackler.
Kirchner0/005/3/17910003 1/21/000/0
Wle Roux1/051/7/91173415 0/50/000/0
CEngelbrecht0/001/5/10961414 3/10/000/0
Cde Villiers1/052/6/131033702 2/20/000/0
WHabana2/0102/1/3402200 1/20/000/0
FHSteyn0/175/32/3150100 7/40/000/0
SHdu Preez0/103/69/9230022 2/1


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9298
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 16:25:54
What so, Morne missing 4 is productive????

How the hell did JJ miss us the RC when he misses less tackles than any other back bar du Preez.......what are you smoking.

Now go check JJ's stats in the first AB test.....you will find it was 9 tackles made and ZERO missed......so much for JJ having a defensive issue.


Case rests as they say


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8729
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 16:29:04
Sadly it doesn't because he missed Nonu on the way to the halftime try and missed Barrett for the RC with a pathetic effort. Any number of rote phase tackles can't make up for that.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9298
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 16:37:41
Ha ha, he missed Barrett for the RC what a load of [removed].....I take it Jean, Morne and Kirchner are blameless when it comes to that try......because, um they happen to not be JJ


Moz, pointing a finger at JJ makes you look a bit of a fool given the video evidence plus the fact that it is well do[removed]ented that Barrett was in fact missed by 4 defenders.....so saying JJ lost us the RC is the joke of the year. 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8729
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 17:31:48

Jean never laid a finger on him, nor did your man Kirchner. Morne had his hands on his shoulder at a stretch, when he ran slap bang into the arms of JJ. JJ may not have had the responsibility when the move started....but he had by far the best shot at tackling Barrett. And because his tackling technique is so pathetic, there is no other word that decribes those weak high tackles, he missed him .....ending up ignominiously on the deck. That was the end of the RC. I told you this guy's weak tackling was going to cost us....I imagined maybe a test, I never dreamed he would cost us the RC.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12938
RE: The Tauted er touted youngsters and their fates
October 18, 2013, 17:48:10

Mozart

 

With all due respect - if you look at the overall stats for the CR - you will find that Morne was bad in tackling during the whole series.   He made 45 tackles in 6 matches - missing 19.   That represents a miss tackle ratio of 19% - about 9 to 10% higher than what is acceptable in defence under such cir[removed]stances.

 

He obviously have to make more tackles due to attacks in the channel and especially so as he get very little support from the loosies  of SA - the latter being easily outpaced and passed by opposition attacking players.   The opposition knows that he is not a reasonably good defender and run at him more frequently and more successfully.   He missed 4 tackles in the Ellis Park test - 3 of which ended up in tries being scored by the AB's.   I would say two are really his bugger-ups - the 4th is the Barrett miss - where I lay only part of the blame on him and basically blame Engebrecht for a poor defensive effort.

 

However, it is not the only reason for a Morne disaster.   Even though the Springboks were only playing with 14 men in the Eden Park test - he made bugger - up after bugger-up in the kicking game as well - especially with relieving kicks and a penalty kick where he missed the outside line.

 

If there is one player that should never play for the Springboks again - it is indeed Morne Steyn.   Coaching may help JJ to improve his tackling technique - nothing will help the robotic Morne,  - because he is way past the stage where coaching will improve his standard play on his part since he was  a Junior.   He always was the same throughout his playing career - an average to poor pivot with no ball sense and poor reading of games and consequently useless in attacking backline play. an average to poor defender - with only one asset and that is kicking at goal.   However, when under stress he missed far too many of those as well (Dunedin - 80% misses,  Bulls - Brumby semi this year - 50% misses, Ellis Park - 33% misses).+

      


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