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6777 Topic: The Meyer Quandary
kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 516
The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 14:35:58

I know that there are a lot of mix feelings about Meyer as the national coach and nobody on here sits on the fence. You are either for or against Meyer.

Now that he has two championship tournaments under his belt, I thought that it would be worth to reflect on whether he is taken us in the right direction or if we will always remain in the top 3 but never number 1.

My biggest pain points are

Coaching Staff – They are not the best in the country. The boks are not conditioned well enough and showed this at Ellis Park. Defence, how many tries have been leaked these passed seasons. Backline skills, not up to standard. Scrum struggle last year but the new laws are hiding the boks in efficiency. We’ve been really poor in the lineout. Nienabaar, Proudfoot and Cheetahs backline coach will have to become part of the coaching structure.

Selection Policy, don’t pick players out of form, pick form players, create competition, don’t use the test to get players back into form. No room for passengers.

Game Management and tactics, pre-meditated subs don’t work. Don’t sub your front row when you are about 5m from your own or opponent’s line.  Big heavy packs with channel 1 ball don’t always work. Stop expecting players to play in a certain way. Use what you have and plan your tactics around them. Hougaard is not Du Preez, allow him to attack from the base. Lambie likes to play with the ball, he has never been a kicking flyhalf.

Good Points,

Brought back consistency, improvement from last year and a few years before. Piet Helium and John smit destroyed the national squad by selecting the wrong players and not bringing enough talent through. Got rid of competition in the team to save their own arses.

What I struggle with is that I would have like for Meyer to make a gamble and not be so conservative. Pick the best available youngsters and use the early years to allow them to gain mental strength. Previous coaches have done this successfully, no point keeping dead wood around just to plug a hole. 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5824
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 14:50:27
@kingcorn,

i reckon meyers had a great year, Boks competition in 2013 hasnt been anything to brag about, i mean samoa, italy, a lioneless scotland team, pumas x 2 is hardly a woohoo moment, but meyer won them all albeit some a lot easier then others, and a win is the ultimate bench mark.
they also have two wins against the wallabies and their only two losses was to the greatest team in the universe the mighty mighty All Blacks!!!

so all in all, meyer has done well all things considering.

regarding this comment of urs though,,,:(

"Selection Policy, don’t pick players out of form, pick form players, create competition, don’t use the test to get players back into form. No room for passengers."
IMO form is not the only prerequisite for national selections, israel dagg and maa nonu have proved this big time.
there has to be some leeway given to proven players in the past to still be selected, but in saying that, should their form continue to remain at its current level, then by all means give them some time off to remedy the situation.
this is what IMO meyer hasnt done with his consistent selections of underachievers like louw, alberts and pienaar.



Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3582
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 15:01:26
I think Meyer is on the right direction. 

I would like some changes like having a specialist open side flanker on the bench to provide increased mobility when needed. 
In the games where the boks are losing at the breakdown this would allow the bigger and stronger carrier like Alberts to be subbed for a smaller mobile loosie.

Then in games where the Boks are dominating possession and dictating the pattern of play we could keep the big carriers on the field. 

The Backline attack last year was garbage for most of the season except for sohort periods especially when Goosen played.
It has improved significantly to the point where I think the Boks scored the most tries in the 4 Nations, mostly by the backs.

The big concern of the year so far has been defence where the All Blacks were allowed to many easy tries. Ellis park should have been won by the Boks






mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8315
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 15:11:16

The main Meyer quandary is to keep the fans happy while he figures out a way to beat the All Blacks. Not an easy task, but the average fan will never accept that if we lose to the ABs, we may still be on the best available track. This in spite of the fact that we do no better at age group level or in the S15.

 

Being Bok coach is a tough job.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12518
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 15:14:04

Kingcorn

 

In most ways you are correct in your assessment - though Mozart and Beeno will have a fit about some of the issues raised by you.

 

I do agree that Meyer this year showed another inclination as to the style of play he expected.   He clearly put an emphasis on improved attacking play by the backline and by his emphasis of breakdown balls recovery - but in doing that he got into a situation where he selected players with a clear incapacity and limitations  insofar as those two functions are concerned.   He selected -

 

*   Morne at flyhalf and Morne never was an attacking flyhalf pivot and that is a fact of life; and

 

*   he selected a loosie combination - where due to lack of mobility and reading of games - only Louw had a limited capacity in recovery of balls under such conditions - the other loosies contribute nothing to that facet of play.

 

Insofar as attacking play is concerned none of our players are really good ball carriers in open play - even though Vermeulen and Louw played a role in the two Habana tries - for the rest their efforts in that regard is confined to a limited number of attacks in traffic - nendng up in maul situations 

 

Insofar as defence is concerned - we are also in a situation where our loosies are largely at fault.   They are relatively good in defence in the channel - although the missed tackle on Read indicates that even in those cases are inadequate.   Outside of the channel they are no factor at all.   That puts an extra load on our backline defence.   If you look again at the Ellis Park test - you would find that the AB loosies are defending all over the field - our loosies only if the opposition players are in the immediate vicinity of the tight phases of the game.

 

Insofar as deficient line out play is concerned there are limitations as to what can be achieved through coaching.   We played a seriously deficient line out lock to partner Etzebeth and no reliable loosies to share the load.   The result is we ended up with essentially only one line out option and that resulted in the AB's to concentrate all their efforts in defence on Etzebeth and not bother about any other option.   That also was the reason why our mauls have been ineffective this year.   In other words we need another effective lock and a loosie that can produce the goods in future - and I am afraid Kruger and Flippie is not the answer.

 

The other issue about defence is a problem - I think that there are problems in technique of some backline players insofar as tackling is concerned - and in the present set -up all of Morne (he was very poor at Ellis Park), Engelbrecht and Le Roux could benefit from expert advice and making sure they implement the advice.   No amount of coaching will help in the case of Kirchner - he will never benefit from any amount of coaching.

 

I think Meyer showed major improvement this year compared to last year - but there are certain areas where -

 

*   selection on merit with due regard to present performance and capacity for further development should be the key; and

 

*   there are specific components of the game - where expert coaches should be brought in to iron out deficiencies.

 

The deadwood like Kirchner, Alberts and Kruger should be eliminated asap.  The rest after studying player progress in Super 15 next year.   

 

 

 

In essence the Springboks needs  

 

   


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 516
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 15:57:39
 It comes back to coaching point. I don’t think that Meyer has the best coaches on his staff. The springboks conditioning has been poor all season. If you want to be play a high tempo game you have to have the fitness to carry it out. The same goes for the defence. For me Nienabaar is the best in the country and we need to have him in the national setup.

Hawka, winning ratios are not always best for the team. I think that the boks have been exposed by the All Blacks this year. As you mentioned, none of the other teams were real threats. Australia has a new coach and quite a few brats in their team that only likes to attack and not defend.

The end of year tour might be a tougher test for them. Wales are looking really strong and probably the northern hemisphere team at the moment.

I believe if the boks were on the right track that they could have come close to beating the all blacks or even beaten them at ellis park.

What it showed was that the players were unfit, defence patterns were completely wrong, some players made to many basic errors and the lack of protecting the ball, especially when you attack from your 22.

Australia are losing badly now but their last game against argetina proved that they are a team on the up. They may suffer this year but next year they will be really difficult to beat. I think that they will surprise both the all blacks and boks next year.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3036
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:02:55
 Two quotes from  this thread:

"Defence, how many tries have been leaked these passed seasons."

....and


"Morne at flyhalf and Morne never was an attacking flyhalf pivot and that is a fact of life; and"

If you compare 2012 with 2013 from the beginning of the year to the end of the RC, you would find the following that addresses the above "observations".

First one. Last year we "leaked" 15 tries and this year we "leaked" 17 tries.

But, and this is where the second "observation" comes in about the attacking abilities of Steyn.............. and remember that Steyn was "thankfully" axed during the Dunedin test and did not play in the last two tests. Also bear in mind the nature of the second test against Aus against a badly depleted and disrupted Aus team. Nowthis is where the funny part comes in. Guess how many tries we scored in each year?

2012- 19
2013 - 40

So, in 2012 we "leaked" one try for every 1.27 that we scored. In 2013 we "leaked" on for every 2.11 try that we scored.

That takes care of poor defence and poor attacking play.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3036
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:05:59
 "The springboks conditioning has been poor all season."

If the Springbok players arrive at the Bok camp in a poor state of conditioning after a S15 series, you can hardly expext the Bak camp to work miracles, if you consider that fact that the franchises were unable  to do that from Dec to Jun. And then Heyneke Meyer picks up flack when he sends back a lazy fat blob because of his poor conditioning and work ethic.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12518
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:08:00

 Mozart

 

What are you talking about?   We had last year 3 of the 6 top teams in Super 15 and this year had 4 of the 8 top teams in the competition.  Last year New Zealand had two teams in the top 6 and this year 2 in the top 8.

 

We won the JWC in 2012 and beat New Zealand comprehensively in the JWC this year.  

 

So how can you make a statement  "This in spite of the fact that we do no better at age group level or in the S15".    The Chiefs was beaten by the Stormers and the Crusaders by the Sharks - those being the top 2 New Zealand teams in Super 15.  

 

Can you explain your statement as quoted above in more detail please.  


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12518
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:21:36

Ceradyne

 

So we have no defence problems because of a kind of mathematical valuation made. That is rubbish at best.   Last year we were notoriously poor insofar as scoring of tries is concerned and the fact that we did better this year - does not mean we should leak more tries than we did last year.

 

There has been serious defence deficiencies in some games in Super 15 - like the Argentinians in Mendoza scoring two tries against one by the Springboks - but more especially in the Ellis Park test.  Failure to recognise that deficiency with a stupid percentage calculation you come up with - is an exercise in futility.   The AB's scored 5 tries against us - three because of serious defence deficiencies and by stupidity of players like Morne - that is the crux of the matter.

 

Just for your info - if you score more tries is not an entitlement to give away more tries.  


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3036
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:31:02
 Uhmmmm. More attacking rugby goes hand in hand with greater risk of giving away points/tries. You are known for bull[removed]ting when it comes to your pet hates. Let me ask you again. When are you going to agree that we go back to the threads where you were caught out with your bull[removed]ting. Of course you would not want that.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8315
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:38:55

OOM here you go...we have won 3 Super Championships.....but we have won 3 TN/RCs. No better. And in fact if you dig into second best performance, you find we placed 3rd, 7th and 10th in the championship.....worst of the three nations.

 

The irony is some of those Bools championships were acheived by Meyer and Morne....the very people you say stand in the way of the Boks.

 

Game, set and match.

 

New Zealand CrusadersChristchurch73
New Zealand BluesAuckland31
South Africa BullsPretoria30
Australia BrumbiesCanberra24
New Zealand ChiefsHamilton21
Australia RedsBrisbane10
South Africa SharksDurban04
Australia WaratahsSydney02
New Zealand HighlandersDunedin01
New Zealand HurricanesWellington01
South Africa StormersCape Town01

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12518
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:45:16

 Ceradyne

 

Hell - but you beat the idiots in stupidity by a mile. Which tries were given away as a result of attacking rugby by the Springboks - ie of defects in attacking by the backline? Probably one - and that resulted from the rank stupidity of Morne not kicking the ball out when the siren was on the point of calling the end of play in the first half.

The leaked tries came from a disgracefully poor attempt of a tackle by Alberts on Read - no excuse, The falling over his own feet and no attempt in recovery of the ball from the tackled Aaron Smith (again Alberts) and Morne's non-tackle on Read resulting in the fifth try. The Barrett try came after botched defence attempts by Jean, Morne and JJ.

No wonder you are Stupidity Supreme on this site. .


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3036
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:49:08
 Hell - but you beat the idiots in stupidity by a mile.

[removed] off.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5824
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 16:51:08
@mikey,

"We had last year 3 of the 6 top teams in Super 15 and this year had 4 of the 8 top teams in the competition.  Last year New Zealand had two teams in the top 6 and this year 2 in the top 8."
another way of looking at it is, NZ had two teams in the top 4 in 2013, they also had two teams in the top 4 in 2012 and also two teams in the top 4 in 2011.

and heres the real kicker which harldy gets any light due to NZs cant be furdegd crying over spilt milk attitude, unlike some facebook friendly nations, :angel:
NZ in 2012 and 2013 technically had two teams in the top 3, but thanks to the SARU heavily endorsed rule saying that every conference leader should be given an automatic home final, the crusaders who technically finished higher then the reds in 2012 and the brumbies in 2013 were forced to play from a weaker position of 4th place compared to 3rd.

also worth noting that NZ is the only conference in the spXV era to always have 50% of the teams be NZ teams in the super rugby semi finals.

just thought i would let u guys know that, it dosent get mentioned a lot around these waters, cos despite the hardships targeting the NZ franchises, its not enough to stop the best of the best, being the best, :D

@NZrugby,
thank u NZ rugby for all ur hard work, much love from the uchiha and uzumaki clan, :)


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5824
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 15, 2013, 17:03:17
@ceradyne,

"Morne at flyhalf and Morne never was an attacking flyhalf pivot and that is a fact of life; and"

If you compare 2012 with 2013 from the beginning of the year to the end of the RC, you would find the following that addresses the above "observations".

First one. Last year we "leaked" 15 tries and this year we "leaked" 17 tries.

But, and this is where the second "observation" comes in about the attacking abilities of Steyn.............. and remember that Steyn was "thankfully" axed during the Dunedin test and did not play in the last two tests. Also bear in mind the nature of the second test against Aus against a badly depleted and disrupted Aus team. Nowthis is where the funny part comes in. Guess how many tries we scored in each year?

2012- 19
2013 - 40"

mikey isnt wrong about morne being a poor attacking flyhalf, cos he is.
as for the numbner of trys scored in 2012 compared to 2013, heres another way of looking at it,,,
2012
england x 4
wallabies x 2
All Blacks x 2
pumas x 2
ireland x 1
scotland x 1

2013
samoa x 1
italy x 1
scotland minus british lions x 1
pumas x 2
wallabies x 2
All Blacks x 2

the term big fish small pond seems very fitting when thinking of the Boks 2013 test schedule.
under those cir[removed]stances, its easy to fool some people into thinking that morne is a half decent attacking player.

i dont think mornes been as kak as mikey makes out, but i do think his attacking rugby is on a lower level compared to NZ children playing rugby at playtime, ;)


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 516
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 12:38:37
 SAS, good point on that NZ has produced more semifinalist then SA, but then you have to look at the qualification process. I think that the finals always favour those who finished at the top, but what it. The only kiwi team successfully win a semi away was the Crusaders that have done it twice.

Last year the sharks finished 6th, the had to fly out to Australia and beat the reds, who was 2011 champions, they then flew back to SA and the Stormer at Newlands and then had to fly back to NZ where they ultimate lost to the chiefs.

For SA to have 2 teams in the Semis or 4 in the top 8 is massive. SA teams have to travel way more than the Kiwis or any other team. 

If you look at those accomplishments I think that SA fans has reason to feel aggrieved in not having a better springbok team. As good as the all blacks have been, SA has played 4 test against the all black without beating the once.

The all blacks are beatable and England showed that they can be beaten. 

That is why I as a Bok fan feel short changed, we have the players but we lack the brains to get us to beat the all Blacks. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12518
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 13:25:38

Mozart

 

Let me quote you again:- 

 

"This in spite of the fact that we do no better at age group level or in the S15."

 

You did not explain that statement at all.   You ducked and dived and came up with stats of up to ten years ago.   Nothing about the age group story -  nothing about recent Super 15 performances - implied by the use of the word "do".   History won't help - we are not talking about players who retired years ago - or should have been shown the door because of incompetence already - the matter relates to the present scenario - as is clear in your queried statement.  

 

What is pertinent is that you made a wild statement - really in line with your normal skyscrapers - and when queried tried to duck the response.   Should have expected as much - standard practice in your case.   


cwvdmerwe

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 50
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 13:42:19
 2012
england x 4
wallabies x 2
All Blacks x 2
pumas x 2
ireland x 1
scotland x 1

2013
samoa x 1
italy x 1
scotland minus british lions x 1
pumas x 2
wallabies x 2
All Blacks x 2

Kak redenasie!


cwvdmerwe

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 50
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 13:46:23
 "Morne at flyhalf and Morne never was an attacking flyhalf pivot and that is a fact of life; and"
    ^
    |
Kak redenasie...


Kyk hoe kak die bulle nou met hulle sogenaamde aanvallende losskakels...

As jy [removed]ol van rugby weet, is dit eerder beter om stil te bly


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12518
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 13:54:44

cwvdmerwe

 

Welcome to the site.   Sasue has his own way of looking at issues and although he is a  Kiwi living in Melbourne - he is quite aware of our Springbok performances and normally credit them for what they achieve.

 

Morne is not an attacking flyhalf - in that respect he is more than a liability rather than an asset.  Sasue is right about that one. 

 

Careful he understands the word "kak" very well - being a member of this site for a while now.:D 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8315
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 14:10:32

OOm you want Junior results and more recent results? Careful what you ask for. Here are our results for the Junior RWC. We have played 6, won once.....but at home. In the senior RWC we have played 5, won twice, at home and away. 

 

My statement that we are not better at junior level was wrong....because it implied we are equivalent at junior level. In fact we are worse. Why we would want to populate the Boks with a bunch of kids who just lost to the junior version of our opponents beats me.

 

 

I trust the penny has finally dropped.

 

HostFinalThird place match
WinnerScoreRunner-up3rd placeScore4th place
2008 Wales
New Zealand
38–3
England

South Africa
43–18
Wales
2009 Japan
New Zealand
44–28
England

South Africa
32–5
Australia
2010 Argentina
New Zealand
62–17
Australia

South Africa
27–22
England
2011 Italy
New Zealand
33–22
England

Australia
30–17
France
2012 South Africa
South Africa
22–16
New Zealand

Wales
25–17
Argentina
2013 France
England
23–15
Wales

South Africa
41–34
New Zealand


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12518
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 15:46:43

Mozart

 

I was looking at the last two years - not ancient history.  Your word "do"  implies the present situation.   That is where I differ from you.  You always try to find fault with younger players coming through - and you are not giving credit to anybody - bar the great match losers whom we sit with in the present Springbok team.

 

Morne did a wonderful match-losing job in the Bulls - Brumbies semi-final this year and he made a major contribution to the loss at Ellis Park - Alberts tried a sitting duck tackle on Read and fell flat on his face in the process - and then fell over his feet - clumsy as hell -when he was nearest to play and should at  least made an effort to  recover the ball after the Aaron Smith tackle.  Morne missed enough tackles that that led to tries and fouled up when he did not know when to kick the ball and when to pass - result 4 tries.  He also missed two kicks at goal - minus 4 points.   The three tackles he missed - were on Ben Smith (first try), Barrett (4th try) and Reid (5th try),

 

You are stuck in the not-so-glorious past and that is where the main problem lies.   Your favourite players - Steyn, Alberts and  Kruger (all players you praised to high heaven on this site) have all been the core of losing teams - which you fail to realise at all.

 

You above schedules are meaningless - even the headings are wrong in the latest one and that says it all.  

 

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8315
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 16:55:23

So lets make it really modern history....this year. The Boks have beaten every team they played except the ABs and are ranked second in the world. The Junior Boks came third. Once again not as good as the senior team. Game, set and match.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12518
RE: The Meyer Quandary
October 16, 2013, 17:44:34

Mozart

 

Not game set and match at all - I am afraid.   The topic here deals with Meyer and what he has to do - I believe - to improve the situation.   To aim at number 2 - is just not good enough.   We were number 3 last year - and in my original comments I credited Meyer with an improvement from last year - but I am concerned about what can be done to improve the team and beat the All Blacks - not to linger on as the number 2 team in the world.

 

We could have won the game at Ellis Park and came within an inch of beating the All Blacks - but for poor plays by three or four players - who proved to be match losers rather than match winners (Kirchner, Morne, Alberts and Kruger).   What is wrong in advocating their replacement by players who has proven better performance records on lower levels?

 

I also do not like components of the game of Engelbrecht (I think he Is one-dimensional and only relies on speed - while he has defence problems as well) - but would like to see what Super 15 next year produces insofar as the flyhalf and 13 positions are concerned.   I think that should be the key - because to keep on with the players mentioned is really looking for a no-hope WC in 2015.   The problem remains that all of Kirchner, Morne and Alberts will be 30 next year and they will not change their performances and style of play at that age - even if they were physically able to do so. which is really doubtful.  


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