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6763 Topic: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
clevermike

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Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 08:35:21

I wrote about selection errors and the fact that the Springboks have a problem with their loose forward combination, which was completely over-shadowed by the AB's in the past series - a combination that contributed to our loss against the AB's.

 

In dealing with the issue I consequently had a look at the performances of the loosies in Super 15 and looked at how that compare statistically wise did and through in the best performing SA loosie - who did not play on Saturday did in the said competition:-

 

Messam  

 

Tries scored                   -           2

Tries assists                               2

Ball Carries                               80

Line Breaks                                3

Turnovers                                  6

Tackles                                   142

Line out Takes                          21

Give Penalties                           11

Lose Possession                          9

 

Points based on above         3 485

 

Read

 

Tries scored                   -           3

Tries assists                               0

Ball Carries                               59

Line Breaks                                2

Turnovers                                  8

Tackles                                    81

Line out Takes                          24

Give Penalties                             5

Lose Possession                          6

 

Points based on above        2 925

 

Labuschagne

 

Tries scored                   -           2

Tries assists                               1

Ball Carries                               64

Line Breaks                                4

Turnovers                                 14

Tackles                                   263

Line out Takes                          43

Give Penalties                             7

Lose Possession                          7

 

Points based on above           3 975 

 

What was embarrassing was the comments of the AB supporters to the effect that they wish for the present combination to continue and that the present situation is a boon to the AB team.

 

The real embarrassment was you - with all the egg all over your face when it comes to players you listed as not performing in Super 15 and the JWC.   I evaluated one case and you went quiet and would not comment on it - yet you keep on making sweeping statements with virtually no real statistical basis at all.  Problem is - you apparently like to debate things on what you perceive in your biased mind are facts - and it would be wise for you to stick to factual evaluations.  

 

I do not expect a response on this item - but would like to state it - so that everybody can read it and realize that your sweeping statement is of less value than the Zimbabwe dollar used to be.

 

 

 


Beeno1

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 09:29:44
 Mike please!!!!! The comments about our loosies have been very favourable.
We dominated territroy and possession and created more try scoring opportunities that the abs! We should really have won that match!! We shot ourselves in the foot - and threw away a win - FACT.
All I will grant you is what I said before the match - we could on the highveldt had played one fast loosie.

But just realise we suffered playing 4 tight forwards - Juandre is better as a tight foward than wee matfield - but poor nevertheless. 

The rugby commentatrs are NOT putting our loss down to the loose trio.
Meyer is a builder and will sift the talent. 

Never allow the kiwis to select the Bok side -rugby 101 first paragrah. Man did they talk up matfield!! Bwahahhahahahahahaha



clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 10:31:02

Beeno

 

Please  - our loosies were completely over-shadowed by the AB loosies.  They played an all - round game - ours were mere additions to the tight 5.   We dominate possession and territory - we lost the game.  

 

Who scored the AB tries?  Mesam 2 and Reid 1.   Why?  Because our loosies was not there to counter theirs.   If you [removed]yse the three tries you would find in all three tries our Loosies buggered up badly.  A fourth try was scored by Ben Smith because Alberts missed a tackle on Read and Ben Smith scored.   The two Messam tries were equally embarrassing.   The first try was due to poor play and cover by Alberts - the second one because Kolisi completely missed a tackle on Messam - after a series of blunders starting with Morne.

 

Then there was the Read try at the end and where were our loosies when Barrett got through to score - there were no support by our loosies for the backline defenders.

 

Look again at the above and you may realise the truth.   It is because we make general statements on how e dominate possession and territory and goes on to lose the match we should have won - if it was not howlers like I mentioned in this thread.

 

Without players like Alberts and Kolisi - we would still dominate possession and territory - without the defensive lapses and we may get some ball recovery - which we do not get from any of our  present loosies.

 

So wake up and smell the roses.

    

 

 


Just_win

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Posts: 6039
RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 11:27:26

You have my full agreement and support Clevermike :)

 

But more seriously, you see the difference in how the Boks and ABs are going about building their team for the RWC.

 

ABs try and use an evolution approach (no radical changes but gradually bringing in new players in support of a game plan(s) and strategy which is determined already. They have a lot of new players with fantastic talent developing one level below the ABs. NZ limitation is our fans will not tollerate loses. The Bok fans are used to it and seem to accept you are "re-building".

 

Boks are making quite a few changes and are unsettelled on who their players will be (more radical, one might say knee-jerk approach :)).  Still not clear what the overall game plan(s) or strategy is. It could be for a power pack with an improved back line attack. But while issues with the loosies and the number 10 persist it is not clear. Seem to be sticking with beefy Boks appproach though.

 

We will have to see how the two teams progress. Any thoughts?

 


clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 12:02:42

Just-win

 

I think that there are some changes to be made by Meyer.   We can expect to see a tight 5 situation basically changed through replacement of Steenkamp on the bench and Du Toit coming in with maybe Van der Merwe on the bench - still a bulky lot.

 

I think the loosies will ultimately change with Alberts going and Vermeulen and Louw retained - either on the bench or in the starting line up.   The prime candidates for inclusion will be Botha and Labuschagne - both were in the Meyer squad at times and I expect Labuschagne to be in the EOYT squad - Botha would also have been but for the injury. 

 

At flyyhalf there are a number of options - with the top two candidates being Goosen and Lambie - personally I think that it depends how those two perform in Super 15 next year - I frankly cannot see Morne Steyn lasting very much longer.

 

At full back it is likely that either Lambie or SP Marais - who were the Kings full back in the Super 15 - will come into the picture, obviously depending on who gets the nod as flyhalf.  There are also the issue of Taute - should he play well in Super 15.

 

I am quite happy with our younger crop of players available for selection.   I think on average they are on par with New Zealand or even better - since they beat New Zealand in the last two JWC competitions quite convincingly.

 

From that crowd we got some players already in the Bok squad or on the verge of selection.   I suspect that there will be a slight re-emphasis of play in future test - with a bigger emphasis on backline attack than there was in the past - but we will have to wait and see how Meyer goes ahead in future selections.

 

I expect that by the RC next year Meyer will have the squad in place that would go through to the RWC in 2015 and expect about 4 or 5 changes to the Match day 23 compared to the team which played in the Ellis Park test.   That will not mean a wholesale change - but upgrading of players in certain positions in those cases where the existing players failed to live up to expectations.  

 

 

 


Just_win

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Posts: 6039
RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 12:20:14

Clevermike: yes the Boks clearly are developing.

 

Just wanted to point out the different approach Boks and ABs are taking. Partly forced by the current state of the two teams and partly by the desire of NZ and the ABs to always be number 1 (which is a big ask when you take into account the RWC).


sasuke uchiha

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Posts: 5844
RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 15:01:01
its more about balance, Boks loosies are all too slow, as soon as kolisi hit the field he looked like freaking usain bolt compared to slow slower and slowest vermeluen, louw and alberts.

i say balance, cos its acceptable to have somebody whose not known for his speed, in the All Blacks case its McCaw, but compared to the Boks looseforward trio hes still way quicker.

vermeulen IMO can hold his head up high after a great RC/4nats season, i would keep him as my No8 and make sure my 6 and 7 are not lacking in the mobility and pace side of things.

labuschange would definitely be an improvemnt on things, its funny how both luatua and labuschange were the form loosies in the spXV.
luatua was given plenty of All Black time from hansen and labushcnage wasnt given any time.
luatua in turn has now flipped the pecking order of looseforwards in NZ well and truly upsidedown after performances which were dare i say even better then his spXV performances.
i cant help wonder what might have been of meyer had a little bit of faith with the cheetahs superstar.

we also cant forget that arno botha was injured and hes got plenty of gas, his exclusion was due to injury and im sure if he can stay injury free next year, his inclusion to the Boks will be a significant plus.

i also like the looks of kolisi, i dont regard him as a fetcher type of openside flanker, but thats fetching sterotype is one of many reasons why the All Blacks are lightyears ahead of the rest world, cos fetching is a very small a role for the loosie, ensuring ur there at most breakdowns to compete make things difficult for the opposition is the only thing that is important.
McCaw has known this for the last 4 years, thats why hes the king and the rest are a merely flavours of the day.
kolisi has a very similar game to sam cane and good rugby instincts. the best thing is hes still learning and hasnt come close to reaching his true potential.

alberts and louw have got to go, it would be acceptable to have alberts of the bench, but louw IMO has very little to offer, hopefully meyer picks both louw and alberts again next year, as i want to win another two tests against the Boks in 2014.

also if spies can reach his form from 2009, even be half as good as he was in 2009, i would pick him in the starting team too.
in my entire history of watching the game, no player has ever been as difficult to stop as spies was in 09, a real force to be reckoned with, its a shame that during his time off for various reasons, he lost his balls cos he hasnt been one tenth the player he was back then.

my loosies
6 s kolisi, 7 l labushcnage, 8 d vermeulen, 20 w alberts
and when botha is back
6 s kolisi, 7 a botha, 8 d vermeulen, 20 l albuschnage


Beeno1

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 15:50:08
 Bwahahahahahahaha kolisi.
Deon Fourie outplays him game after game.
Ou maaaikie you need no other proof.
Louw is not going anywhere. One spot could be up for grabs.



mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 16:00:44
 Say OOm show me Labuschagne's test stats.....hahahahaha. No can do? But he is mid career, why don't they pick him? Saturday will demonstrate that, as he disappears into the anonymity of routine phase tackling.....his norm in big matches.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5844
RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 16:01:09
@beeno1 aka storminged,

i can honestly say ive never seen fourie out play kolisi once while playing for the Boks, ;)

i wouldnt mind fourie TBH, but if fourie cant make the Boks on his form from the last two years, its safe to say hes neever going to be a Bok, :O

as for kolisi, nearly every Boks game that kolisi has played in this year he has caught my eye, :ermm:

a lot of potential which Boks are sure to waste on bricks for shoes louw and alberts.


clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 16:26:02

Mozart

 

You are an embarrassment.  You said he achieved nothing in Super 15 - and then come up with a wild statement.   The worst performance day of Labuschagne is still three times better than that of Alberts on Super 15 level.  The same will apply on Saturday - even if the Cheetahs loses.

 

You try and bypass the obvious information as if it does not exist - so we know that you are biased beyond belief. 


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 17:16:51

Labuschagne is the new Wikus van Heerden....a fine player with a loyal following...but without the basic horse power to make a difference in tests. I spent years explaining it to the Wikus groupies, so the debate is familiar to me. Before that there was Luke Watson...another stats monster.


clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 17:33:34

Balls - how do you know that?  You who looked at games and wrote afterwards you saw him doing nothing in the game - - because you refuse to see what he ahs done.

 

Willem Alberts is an embarrassment - he really does not produce anything of substance in any game and you are a loyal follower.   What norm do you use to make statements like that other than prejudice?


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 19:41:31

OOM if you had some I'd respond in kind....but no I'm not a huge Alberts fan. The point is, he has test credentials , little old Lappies is no test player. And in the absence of Schalk or some similar real test flank, Alberts is our best option. Particularly up north.


clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 20:15:01
Balls again - little Labuschagne is as tall as no do Alberts and he weighs more than Botha so how come he is little and weak.   Her has outplayd Messam in their only game which they played against each other  - so how come he is not a test player?   prejudice again showing up and general statements without proof or substance abounds. 


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 21:27:46
Well we disagree about liittle Lappies, all I can say is the national coach apparently agrees with me. And much as you have volume and repition on your side....he has credibility, something which you sadly lack. 


clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 22:21:27

Mozart

 

It is no use to discuss issues with you - because you will never admit that you are wrong about  issues.   You have an idea that Springboks have "test credentials" if they have at one stage or another have played for the Springboks - provided you like them as players - whether they failed miserably as test players or not.

 

You like De Jongh - so suddenly he is superman and drag everyone 5 meters when they try and tackle him.   When it is pointed out that he failed in the Murrayfield and Twickenham test - it is met with the great silence.

 

When you don't like a player- you assign some real derogatory designations to him - without any foundation or truth to what really is the case - Pieter--Steph becomes Stephany, Labuschagne becomes "little" - all because Mozart does not like him for some reason or another.   This has nothing to do with player performances - it has to do with whether he poses a threat selection wise to one or other of Mozart's favourite players.   You wrote odes about Kruger a bare three months ago - but when he failed badly in the last test - he never was your candidate for selection.  

 

A really complex character - when cornered the slithering out of a problem will do a snake proud.   Then it I time for the personal attack scenario like "he has credibility, something which you sadly lack."

 

Meyer has his own selection criteria and he has admitted he made mistakes in the past.   If everyone on this board kowtow to Meyer's slightest whim - they can close down this Board, because it will serve no purpose.   Here we can write what we think and try and debate issues like grown ups - without the childish personal attacks you retreat to when you make wild statements and the facts are placed on this Board.

 

I sometimes lose patience with you because even the statements are totally groundless and without foundation - you go quiet on them for a while and later on come back with the same groundless and fictional statements.

 

This being the case - a proper factual discussion cannot be upheld and I have no decided to just keep to short sentences and when they recur use a two word abbreviation in response and save myself time by not checking whether the statement is based on fact or whether it is just Mozart fiction.      


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 22:53:12
Actually it seems to me you are the one launching personal attacks and I am the one laughing them off in good humour. But suit yourself I really could care less. 


clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 14, 2013, 23:39:02

Mozart

 

To be quite frank - I always respected you and always will - but I frankly do not like unfounded statements on players - especially derogatory one's - and have said it clearly.  What happened in those cases I go and study he stats and try and correct what actually happened.

 

When I criticize players - I base my criticism on facts and actual  performances - not on personal likes and dislikes.   That is where our ways part in discussion.   To then read what you say  I lack credibility is an insult and it hurt badly.  

 

I am prepared to forgive that insult and laugh it off - but please - if you differ from me on issues rather come up with facts and stats that indicate that I am wrong and not with that kind of remark. 


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 01:02:25

Here's a hint....on this string, before I said you lacked credibility (hardly an insult in Board language) you said this about me:

 

 

 ......"the real embarrassment was you".....that I have "a biased mind".....my sweeping statement had less value than a Zimbabwean dollar.....I am "biased beyond belief"....I am an "embarrassment"....I try to "bypass the obvious information".....I am prejudiced....I "never admit I am wrong".....I'm a "really complex character ....when cornered "I slither out in a way that would make a snake proud"....you "lose patience" with me.

 

 

And that's just on one string, I find this stuff posted all over the Board. Do you see my point?


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 05:53:55
Do you see my point? 


Ceradyne

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 14:33:14
 No reply. No surprise.


clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 16:24:48

Ceradyne

 

Stupid [removed] - I do not want to cause further discord between Mozart and me.  I wrote a response and then cancelled it for that reason. 

 


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 16:40:42
The right response would have been an apology. 


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 16:40:47
The right response would have been an apology. 


clevermike

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 16:48:09

OK

 

I apologize for being nasty and expect an apology from you for being insulting.


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 19:43:21
That's not an apology OOm that's an ultimatum.....I dont react to ultimatums. You have behaved abominably on this thread and on the Board in general. Crude insults about the intelligence of posters who are in all likelyhood not less intelligent than you are nor less educated than you are. Low class stuff.


Rooinek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1644
RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 20:15:10
Wehe! Someone's mascara is running!

The most deceitful, childish and self-absorbed twat on the entire internet stamping his little foot and demanding an apology!

You seriously couldn't make this up!


clevermike

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Posts: 13033
RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 20:16:51

 Mozart

 

I apologized - but you never did.  What do you expect me to do  - kowtow in utter obedience?   However, let the matter rest - and I do not expect anything from you - bar insults and ignorance.   I have the decency to apologize - and you talk about "low class stuff"   How classy is that? 

 

 


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 20:52:53

No OOM I expected you till live by all the many resolutions you made not to make it personal. But this string says it all......look I just gave you the opportunity to do the right thing. You can't without issuing a simultaneous demand. Let's just leave it there. Your apologies have meant nothing in the past, so I really dont care if you do or you don't. 

 


mozart

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RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 20:56:15
As for you RIP I seem to recall you demanding an apology from Cloudy for much less....oops is that hypocrisy that just blew in?


clevermike

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Posts: 13033
RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 20:57:32
And your insults flow unabated - I also accept that.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13033
RE: Mozart - it is Embarrassing for All SA supporters
October 15, 2013, 20:57:33
And your insults flow unabated - I also accept that.


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