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6703 Topic: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1667
The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 10:47:47

Not what you would expect from a bok 13. Unfortunately, it happens all to often! Relatively thin guy in respects to a rugby player and still he chooses to stand up in the tackle. Madness!!


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Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 13:11:09

Oh what complete bullshit, try put that tackle in context, it helps when you know what the bloody hell you are talking about, that is the best position JJ could get into from behind as he was not committed to that tackle given Morne, the inside defender was meant to tackle him. That is JJ turning around and trying to tackle him from behind, he had no time to go low.......its called context, why not paint the proper picture by showing us a few frames before that one.

 

 

Skinny centre my arse, does this look skinny to you?

 

 

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6560
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 13:37:11
There goes the Rugby Championship.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 13:50:52
Yeah and Jean and Morne had absolutely nothing to do with it either......they just let Barrett through to test JJ on defence!! 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6560
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 13:58:20
But still, there goes the RC. 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 14:03:42
Nope, there was still a good 20 min to go and thanks to Jean, Morne and JJ, we let Barrett through 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 14:29:25

The thin bloke

 

 

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6560
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 14:54:41

Which is your favourite Dave....is this a Grey College thing?


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6560
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 15:13:51

 This is how it's done

 

 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5498
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 15:57:34
its pretty stupid using a picture as if that is the definitive be all and end all.

i even think saffex is being harsh with his assessment on jj.

IMO, jj has zero blame in barrets try which sealed the RC/4nats for the mighty mighty All Blacks, it was all JDV fault.

JDV rushes of his line and leaves a huge gap for his teammates, as barret steps JDV of the face of this earth, israel dagg is sprinting with pace on barrets outside.

jj was marking his man dagg, but thanks to JDVs blunder, is forced to get back inside and try to stop barret which he fails to do.

jjs an awsoem player, but hes not superman or McCaw and he shouldnt be held to blame for what was clearly JDVs error.

a still picture cant tell u that, cos the context is lost in translation, i mean barret looks like hes got his eyes closed, that dosent mean he was asleep the whole time he was playing or does it??? :blink:


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10342
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 16:26:57

Mozart

 

The photo of the tackle by De Jongh - good tackle - but it was only the sub-par Jantjies involved.   Why - o why  - did he not tackle like that  in Super 15?  He was a defensive sieve in that competition - missing 25% of his tackles.   He succeeded in tackling Jantjies back in this photo - normally he is not ever capable of doing that to any reasonable opponent.      


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6560
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 16:33:31
Sasu you are talking rubbish. Rugby is not a game of your man or my man. If you are in perfect position to make a tackle you make it....especially when the Rugby Cup is on the line. You wouldn't see Conrad Smith missing that tackle in a 100 years.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5498
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 16:49:40
@mozter,

of course u wouldnt see conrad missing that tackle, cos if nonu broke the defensive line and rushed forward, he would have made the tackle.

and ur partially correct, rugby isnt a game of ur man or my man, but JDV. jj and serfontein are defending the blindside, barret, dagg and ben smith are all attacking options on the blindside.
its standard txt book stuff mozter, every player had a designated target, and JDVs blunder put a spanner in the defensive works and put his teammates under immense pressure.

what ur suggesting makes no sense, every player needs to trust that their teammate will make the tackle, jj trusted JDV and JDV let him down.

smae thing happened with habanas first try, nonu trusted faumuina to tackle vermeulen, and faumuina was to slow to make the tackle.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6560
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 17:11:09
Nonsense again....for every player to "trust that their teammate would make the tackle" suggests there are no missed tackles.  PLayers miss tackles all the time....that doesn't give the next tackler a pass.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1667
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 20:48:15

 Saffex.. JJ is by no means "skinny" and I was not referring to him. JJ is a damn good size for a centre.

 Beauden Barrett is a bit on the slight side in terms of an international rugby player. What I meant was that it was not like JJ went high on retallick or someone bigger. A thinner guy like Barrett should have been an easy tackle especially because he runs so straight up.

 

JJ could have hit him anywhere from stomach down there and he would have come down.

Sas trying to sound clever again but really making a fool of himself. In a perfect world, 12 would tackle 12, 13 would tackle 13 and 2 would tackle 2 but its not a perfect world. The best teams are great scramblers on defence. I dont care if Barrett had run through the other 14 guys on the team. If our centre can get into this position to make a tackle, I expect it to be made. Barrett closed his eyes bracing for contact. Even he thought he had run into a tackle and the way he holds the ball with 2 hands shows that he is trying to secure it in the tackle (not offload) and set up the next phase. Much to his surprise, he went striaght through.

 

If Conrad Smith had gotten in this position to tackle anyone, would he have made the tackle? I do understand 2 players had missed him already but fact remains, JJ was in a perfect position to effect the tackle. I mean, look at it. How much closer does he wana be to make the tackle?

 

Just admit it. It was a poor attempt and a serious flaw in JJ's game. I still think he should be the Bok 13 but not if he keeps that shit up. Teams will attack his channel every game. That is Morne Steyn like!

 

You can say what you want. Defence is about attitude and scrambling when needed. THis was a major fuck up on JJ's part. Poor technique and its not a 1 off!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 20:53:49
 Moz you have lost me with this Grey College thing?


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1667
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 21:00:13

Type into google: "JJ Engelbrecht tackle" and have a look. They all look identical. He goes in the same height on Nonu, Read and Piutau (in Eden park I think) so I think this is just the way he tackles.

 

He needs to get in a better position to tackle otherwise we are never going to beat those slick NZ backs. He is a good player and I like him as much as you Saffex but I also like South Africa to win and we are not going to do it missing tackles because of poor form! 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 21:14:03
Sas you are spot on, I coach the game and it is about your man, my man and trusting your team mates. If there are two defenders, JJ and Morne, it is the golden rule that the inside defender tackles the player with ball in hand that is heading between them. 


JJ would have trusted Morne to make the tackle and therefore would not have been committed to tackling Barrett and by the time he realizes Morne has made a pathetic attempt at tackling Barrett, its too late for JJ to get into a good position to tackle Barrett, he has to go high and from behind, leading with the wrong shoulder.......Boklogic's ignorance to this very fact makes me wonder what kind of rugby he has been playing. 


JJ would have had his eye on covering wide, would have had to change that in a flash when he realised Barrett was through Morne, he had to turn, was unbalanced and facing the back of Barrett who had already passed him.......hardly able to get into position to make a good low tackle.......the exact same thing happened with the Bosch try.......JJ would have trusted his inside defender to make the tackle who happened to be Jannie sadly, but thats the beauty of rugby.......Bosch exploited the mismatch, he always had Jannie beat and by the time JJ woke up to this fact it was too late


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 21:16:14
Um JJ has missed all of 2 tackles in his last 4 test matches, hardly a problem with his defence......in fact in the first game against the AB's he made 9 tackles and did not miss a single one


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1667
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 23:13:42

Saffex, that is untrue. I have another picture where I rewinded it a frame or two back to show that JJ realised very early on that Barrett was going to be his man and was almost front on.

 

That bullshit of him having to go from behind is exactly that. Bullshit. He had him in front of him at first and this picture clearly shows a simple side on tackle that is in fact, easier to effect.

 

He had ample time to dive around his legs. You question my ability to play the game but then you say "he has to go high and from behind, leading with the wrong shoulder" but when do you ever go high from behind? Head on maybe you can to decrease the opportunity for an off load but how can you go high from behind. You would expect an international rugby player to know that a player with no legs can not run so take his legs away.

 

There is no leading of the wrong shoulder. Read had beaten Alberts in the run up to Ben Smiths try. Alberts was too slow in getting across and he had to lead with his right shoulder which was not ideal because his head would have been on the wrong side of the tackle as he was defending to his left. He got beaten by a faster man. Simple. This picture clearly shows Barrett trying to take the inside break with a step off his right foot, he runs straight onto JJ's right shoulder and the tackle is missed. Perfect poster to teach the kids how not to tackle. You should use that with your team!

 

No amount of backwards and forwards debate will change the fact that yes, Jean and Morne missed the tackle but none ever got in the position JJ was in and Barrett put himself on a platter for JJ to bring him down.

 

Come on Saffex, just study that pic. JJ has more than enough of Barrett. Instead of hug his ghest and arms, why not go lower and hug his legs? He does this far too often. Standing straight up in the tackle. It is a massive flaw. Not saying it will never work but it clearly has cost us tries as well. It is a much lower percentage technique than going lower in contact.

 

I cant believe after showing this evidence that you can still say that JJ was not in a good position to make the tackle on Barrett. This is a perfect position to stop the man in his tracks. The debate on whose tackle it should have been is not relevant. The debate is that it became JJ's, he was in perfect position and he fluffed it!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 23:19:47
Oh what rubbish he had to take him from behind, kindly provide any pic that has him anywhere near front on or even side on. I have watched that whole sequence many times and my take is exactly how it happened.


There is no way in hell JJ could have gone low as he had no time, for crying out loud you say you still play the game......you cant go low unless you have time to align and aim your hit.......you end up going high when its a last second grab as people run in an upright position.......you tackle low when you have the player in your sights one on one........this was never the case as Morne was the one in position to tackle him, he was the inside defender and the one that had the time to go low.


Boklogic you are out of your depth here........JJ tries to take him from the back, leading with the wrong shoulder......the picture tells us that and it also tells us that first Jean and then Morne should have tackled Barrett............Sas has this sequence spot on.


The day JJ misses a one on one tackle where he has the sole responsibility of tackling a player is the day I concede JJ was poor in a tackle......to date I have seen the odd miss resulting from inside defenders not doing their job - FACT


If I was showing my players that sequence, it would start with pointing out how poor Jean was with his rush out......if you rush out and break the defensive line then be sure to make the tackle, for the consequences of not are all there to see.


Secondly I would be pointing out how important it is that the inside defender hits the man low and takes him out instead of putting in a pathetic high attempt like Morne did.


And lastly I'd be pointing out what happens when your trust in your inside defender is let down and you end up being left stranded, unbalanced and exposed.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6560
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 23:26:17
I don't have to win this debate the fifth time round.....there was last year when JJ was sent home to tackle, the Crusaders match where he overran his opponent for a Saders try, the Stormers match where he never stopped de Jongh once by himself in four tries, the Bosch try and now the Rugby Cup loss....because the inherent issue will present again. It's a chronic tackling problem. Kirchner and Spies have never gotten over their issues....I doubt JJ ever will


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1667
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 23:33:10

 I googled "JJ Engelbrecht tackles" and all of them look identical. He does not go low in the tackle and he needs to sort that out and quick. We cant have a 13 that tries to go high. Attacks out wide happen a lot faster for obvious reasons and you need a 13 who can scramble and bring a man down with safe, around the leg tackles ala Conrad Smith. I am afraid JJ is nowhere near this and he is a defensive liability.

 

He is big and strong so I dont understand why he doesnt use this to his advantage and tackle low, wrapping guys legs up. Its a serious problem and for that reason, I would put De Jongh above him in defensive capabilities.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 23:41:14
Moz your takes are complete nonsense......de Jongh has never challenged JJ and never will, that take about him needing help against the wee man is laughable.......the Bosch try had little to do with JJ and everything to do with Jannie, the inside defender not making the tackle and as with the Barrett miss that was firstly down to Jean, followed by Morne the inside defender not making his tackle as he failed to do 4 times........3 of which lead to tries.


Morne lost us the RC and thats a fact.


JJ has missed 2 tackles in his last 4 tests, Jean missed 2 in his last test...........saying JJ has a defensive issue given these stats makes you sound a little desperate dont you think......unless of course the stats are lying??


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7644
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 10, 2013, 23:43:32
Boklogic are you stupid enough to conclude that JJ never goes low because there are 2 photo's on google showing him going high........wow you really are starting to lose the plot......stop speaking shit man.


If JJ only went high everytime he tackled, he would not have played 9 tests this year, get a bloody grip


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6560
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 11, 2013, 01:46:55
Actually I'd go further Dave. I haven't seen him put a man on the deck by himself since test rugby started in June. That said I can't remember seeing him do that in the S15 either. This is a guy who is a fine runner in space, but not a creator, nor a tackler. The creator part you get or don't get for life....tackling can be worked on, but it's hard to be confident. That arm holding/pushing stuff isn't tackling.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1667
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 11, 2013, 02:12:09

 Saffex, please understand bro, I am not attacking you. I like your posts and I can conclude that in most cases, you have a unique spin on things and I would like to see how that pours through in your coaching because I believe you will have an exciting team if nothing else which is probably what English rugby needs.

 

I just can agree with you that JJ has no issues when it comes to tackling. I wont talk about his creating because that is a whole nother story. I have not seen much in terms of him creating anything and only open field running after someone else has put him away.

 

As Bok fans, we should be agreeing that he has a future with the Boks but he needs to sort his defence out. It is and it will cost us games now and moving forward. He almost lacks cnfidence or doesn't back himself to make these tackles. He is not a "warrior" that we need in the 13 jersey. He is bigger than SMith yet Smith tackles everything that moves whether he gets concussed, broken bones or whatever. Thats what we need. JJ is soft in the tackle and his technique is one of the poorest I have seen. I cant believe SA is not working around the clock to change this.

 

He did miss Barrett. Barrett became his man, he was in great position to effect the tackle and poor technique saw Barrett break clean through and cement our fate.

 

Getting bounced by a big man but having heart is one thing. Letting Barrett clean through gutlessly is another!


hakwa

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2186
RE: The JJ injustice - put to bed!
October 11, 2013, 14:05:52
 JJ is a good player


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