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6648 Topic: A few "why's" of the test match!
Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1945
A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 08:03:02

1. Why did Zane Kirchner take up rugby? He is no good at it.


2. Why did Fourie Du Preez attempt a poorly executed cross kick when we needed 4 tries and were 1 metre short of the try line with JDV screaming for the ball with options outside him?


3. Why did Habana have to go and hurt himself!


4. Why did Meyer sub Bismarck? AB's best player (Richie) plays all 80. Our best player plays 50 and is subbed just before an attacking 5m scrum??


5. Why did the Boks not just kick the ball out at half time?


6. Why did 4 Bok players flood the touch line allowing Ben Smith to step off his right and beat all 4 of them? Surely these guys know what Ben Smith can do?


7. Why is JJ missing tackles on the shoulder. Barrett ran onto his shoulder (not arm) which is perfect and he let him bounce straight off.


8. Why is Morne Steyn not used to carry the ball up more along with our forwards? We all saw his power on Retallick ;-) ha ha 


9. Why did the Boks let NZL in for a try everytime we just scored one ourselves?


10. Most importantly, WHY do NZL always have a guy on each shoulder when a player makes a break yet the Boks always have to take contact as the player on the break never has support? Early in the game, we had two clean breaks through Willie and Jean that should have resulted in tries under the posts (the AB's would have) yet we dont finish them off due to no one there to take the final pass!



That just shows how badly rehearsed we are at the running game. The AB's are so fit and thats why they keep up with play. They know their job is not over after they have passed the ball and they get into space to receive the ball back. Boks pass and think there piece in the play is over. Habana is the only player we have that works hard off the ball and thats why he has as many tries as he does. Never saw Jan Serfontein.. If we persist with the running game, we may have to employ a more mobile 7 or whip the trio into shape. They are great at ball carries but not ideal at keeping up with any breaks. How often is Read or McCaw there to take the pass off a break. Kolisi worked hard off the ball and I was really impressed with his 40 mins but we cant play him and flouw. We need another Juan Smith.


hakwa

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2334
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 08:42:40
 I'll do my best to answer your questions Boklogic

1. Old age
2. Old age 
3. Old age (and I suspect Steroid use)
4. old age of Bismarck compared to Richie.
5. old age 
6. old age 
7. old age 
8. old age
9. old age 
10. old age

Don't mention it - happy to always assist! ;)


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12433
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 12:12:46

boklogic

 

I would add another few questions:-

 

*   Why did the backline defence collapsed substantially - with Morne Steyn missing 5 tackles being the most misses by any backline player?

 

*   Why did we play a combination of slow loosies knowing that they would not be able to keep up with the more mobile AB loosies? 

 

*  What was Juandre Kruger doing in the team? 

 

*  did it not become noticeable that Jannie du Plessis ha gone backwards in performances over the past two years?

 

Incidentally the answer to your last question is interesting and the answer is that there is no follow-up by fellow backline players - but more importantly our loosies are nowhere in sight, because they are comparatively immobile, and more capable of bulk and not in reading of games properly.   You would note that the AB loosies was at the breakdown point at the end of the De Villiers and Le Roux breaks near to the actual point of breakdown with no SA loosies anywhere in sight.   The AB loosies can carry the ball twice faster than any SA loosie can achieve.   


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2990
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 12:19:32

Ou Maaikie. Could we have a link to your tackling stats please?


clevermike

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Posts: 12433
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 12:28:14

Google it by looking for ESPN Scrum.com / Live Rugby 2013/Aviva Premiership 2013.  Once the site is open - go to Countries and in particular  South Africa and then press results - after which you press the match in respect of which you want the data and will find it on the right hand side of the screen.

 

 


Beeno1

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Posts: 11542
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 12:32:03
 Ou maaikie we need Deon at 6 and Louw at 7 - a better combo for the highveldt.

At twicks this combo is probably just right.

Actually there are a number of variations re the loose trio. The current three plus Deon, Labuschagne and Arno Botha can come into contention. Also watch to see how Burger goes.

Next year there will be no  Juandre. I am expecting Du Toit to announce himself. Also Malherbe will take the tighthead spot. Flip and Jannie on the bench. Kitshoff is starting to make waves etc etc

In the backs we will have Goosen back, Reinach, Lambie and who knows how Frans will go if he is healed. Jan Serfontein will be even better as well. Willie will be better with some international experience under his belt.

I think we will be very good next year.


Ceradyne

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Posts: 2990
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 12:55:26
 clevermike

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Posts: 7088
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 12:28:14

Google it by looking for ESPN Scrum.com / Live Rugby 2013/Aviva Premiership 2013.  Once the site is open - go to Countries and in particular  South Africa and then press results - after which you press the match in respect of which you want the data and will find it on the right hand side of the screen.

 


I find it interesting that you never ever supply the links when requested to do so. If you do not know how to do that, then feel free to ask. In any case, this is what I found before asking you, hence my request for the link:

http://www.espn.co.uk/the-rugby-championship-2013/rugby/match/174680.html


FH Steyn 0/1 7 5/33/3 8 0 1 1 0 6/4 0/0 0 0/0




clevermike

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Posts: 12433
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 13:03:02

Beeno

 

I think that we will be a better side next year - provided Meyer start looking at performances on Super 15 and CC level and start moving away from a number of players who are to my mind not producing the goods.   I know you support Fourie all out - but the guy worries me on two scores - namely his relatively  low tackle count and his inability to play a role in line out play.   We actually need two locks and one reliable line out jumper amongst the loosies.  

 

I think there are a number of players Meyer must have a hard look at and I include in this regard the following with a view to the EOYT:-

 

SP Marais, Marnitz Boshoff,  Stokkies Hanekom, Damian de Allende, Cobus Reinach, Pieter Labuschadne, Fourie, Pieter Steph du Toit, Lood de Jager, Reinhardt Elstadt, Frans Malherbe and  Trevor Nyakane.

 

He should to my mind play Lambie at flyhalf and allow the failed players - like Kirchner, even Morne Steyn (after his defence debacle on Saturday), Willem Alberts, Juandre Kruger, the  Van der Merwes, Steenlamp and Jannie to stay at home or play for their foreign clubs.

 

In Super 15 next year he should follow he exploits of the above players and can add Johan Goosen, Arno Botha and even Fred Zeilinga to that list - but also Francois Steyn, Taute and Schalk Burger.

 

Based on how they perform - he should be in a good position to select a strong team for the June tests and could then finally deal with the issue of squad selection for the 2014 RC. 

 

       


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2990
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 14:44:12
" ...................even Morne Steyn (after his defence debacle on Saturday)............. stay at home or play for their foreign clubs........"

By definition ou Maaikie would have the following players stay at home or play for their foreign clubs as well:

Willie le Roux. Tackles made - 0. Tackles missed - 4. 0% Success rate
Bismark du Plessis. Tackles made - 1. Tackles missed - 1. 50% Success rate
Bryan Habana. Tackles made - 1. Tackles missed - 2. 33.33% Success rate
Fourie du Preez/ Tackles made - 1. Tackles missed - 1. 50% Success rate
Beast Mtawarira. Tackles made - 1. Tackles missed - 1. 50% Success rate
Adriaan Strauss. Tackles made - 2. Tackles missed - 4. 33.33% Success rate
Jan Serfontein. Tackles made - 3. Tackles missed - 2. 60% Success rate

That is the only logical conclusion in view of Morne's tackle success rate of 60%. The irony is that Morne made by far more tackles than any of the above and he made by far more tackles than any backline player.


clevermike

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Posts: 12433
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 17:18:40

Ceradyne

 

OK - here we have a case of distortion again.   I mentioned elsewhere that there are two other statistical sources that indicated that Morne missed 5 tackles not 4.     Be it as it may - missed tackles are missed tackles and no amount of statistical data would justify it.

 

Lets face facts - Le Roux was bad in defence - but on the other side he was also the most dangerous attacking backline player on the field of play.   That to an extent squares up matters.    Was Morne ever in danger of showing attacking flair?   Never.

 

I was merely highlighting Mozart's quiet way of hiding facts and using the same to attack players he does not like.   When I question performances I look at all the facts and make a deduction - not only those that suit my purpose.       


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2990
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 17:55:43
 Ducking and diving again, are you? Where did you get the five missed tackles from? You are always exaggerating to make your point. You just cannot get away from doing exactly what you accuse others of. Le Roux's defence was atrocious but he did his job on attack. Steyn's defence was 100% better than that of Le Roux, and he did his job as a flyhalf. That could not stop your deep-rooted hate for Steyn.


clevermike

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Posts: 12433
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 18:33:04

Ceradyne

 

Both the Test Rugby and Foxsport sites gave Morne as missing 5 tackles - while ESPN reflected 4 misses.   I never was ducking and diving abiout the issue and gave that info in a separate posting.

 

I do not hate any players.   I evaluate how I see they performed and then think about potential improvements of the team.   Insofar as Morne is concerned - he was standing flatter than he used to do on Saturday as per Meyer's comments and in doing so -

 

*   he did have a better passing game - positive development; coupled to

 

*   he did have the worst defending game on the part of any Springbok flyhalf in many years.

 

Did the trade-off work -- the answer is 50-50, since that exposed Morne's defensive deficiencies.

 

I took a look at the overall tackling stats as well,   In all tests played this year Morne made 65 tackles and missed 15.   In other w0rds his success rate was more or less 81% - with the miss ratio being circa 19%.   All players miss tackles - but that ratio is about 5% higher than reasonably acceptable. 

 

I think that it should be better to start phasing Morne out.   He is playing Club Rugby in Europe, he is not really essential and replacement is possible and he is not getting younger - he is 29 years of age already - while he is at best an average international flyhalf.      


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2990
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 19:16:33
 You could have fooled me. The way that you have been campaigning against him can at best be described as deep-rooted hatred.


Saffex

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Posts: 8812
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 19:39:22
Um the person who should have tackled Barrett was Morne......I do not get how a bloke playing the game still can blame JJ for that miss. Yes he missed Barrett but that was thanks to him lacking conviction given he would have expected Morne to tackle him, given Morne was the inside defender and the first to get his hands on Barrett


When else has JJ missed that kind of tackle?


The most important question you missed, was why did Morne miss so many tackles.........4 in fact, some leading to tries soon after


Blikkies

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 86
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 19:45:47

 Who missed who, who tackled who, who did what was required, who were just a passenger? ... it is all in here. Enjoy (if you still have the power).

 


Beeno1

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Posts: 11542
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 20:00:41
Mike take no note of windpomp. I know you are critical of Morne but also know any charge of you hating the guy is totally childish.

Please grow up windpomp!


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2990
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 21:03:09
 Ou Maaikie's constant whinging and moaning, including blatant lies about Morne is not childish?


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1945
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 21:04:06

 [removed], I dont dispute that Morne should have made the hit but he didn't. He missed the tackle. Beauden went past Morne who gave a piss poor attempt and straight onto JJ who should have put him away. He didnt. I am not worried about whose tackle it should have been, the fact remains, 7 points were given away because of failure to bring a slight player down who ran through two Bok players shoulders.

 

Watch the clip above at 1:18:55 and you can see. It was a plain down miss tackle. He swung straight off him. Barrett ran right at his shoulder. A guy like Jaque Fourie would have dived straight at his knees bringing him down. I like JJ and he must continue but this is happening far too frequently. Always trying to go too high when, if he had dived at the players legs, even if he did not get shoulder to him, there is a big chance he will trip the player up as you cant run without your legs.

 

It all stemmed from him standing up in the tackle.


Saffex

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Posts: 8812
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 06, 2013, 21:50:22
Boklogic.......I love the way JJ gets blamed for this. The art of good attacking play is creating space for yourselves and hesitation in defenders........the Kiwi backs did this well by using the loop around.......Barrett passes to Smith who pops it back to Barrett on the loop.


The first offender on defence is Jean, who rushes out and totally overcooks his attempt to tackle Barrett. Jean should have tackled Barrett, point 1.


Secondly, the next man in line to take Barrett is Morne, the inside defender, his attempt is pathetic in that he goes high. Morne should have tackled Barrett, point 2.


JJ was covering wide and would have first expected Jean to make the tackle, then Morne......so can you blame him for a poor execution, players at this level trust their team mates to make their tackles. If you are covering wide and then suddenly have to change your line of defence, there is a good chance your balance is going to be off and you are going to lose the battle. JJ had no time to align the tackle and in the end his attempt was also poor.


So who was to blame.......first Jean, secondly Morne and lastly JJ......but for some unknown reason you finger JJ.


If you and I are defeding and you are on my inside, I expect you to take the man with ball in hand while I cover the outside channel. If the man with ball in hand gets between us, who's fault is it........its yours bud. Much like that catch that goes between 1st slip and keeper, its always the keepers catch going to his right.


And you are wrong, he is not missing tackles frequently.......in his last 3 tests against Oz and NZ times 2 he has missed one tackle and that is the one above.......check his stats


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1945
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 07, 2013, 00:39:43

 I know what you saying Saff but Beauden's pace got him around Morne's useless attmpt. My issue is that JJ was in a good position to make the tackle. He was close enough to get a shoulder to Barrett and he just missed a 1 on 1 tackle. He needs to go lower.

 

In that situation, he should have launched all his weight into Beauden's knee/thigh region and brought him down. Not try stand and grab him. Its just poor tackling technique.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3558
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 07, 2013, 00:43:09
 I think the point about going lower to make tackles held true for many of the Boks against the All Blacks. 
The ABS were running with their heads and shoulders down, and this makes tacking high very difficult. Some of the bok tackling was pathetic.

I am going to watch the game again now, playing it on my Sky box. the JJ issue and other offenders will be clarified 


hakwa

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2334
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 07, 2013, 00:51:33
 guys while I enjoy the One-upmanship between you lot, the All Blacks also missed 3 tackles leading to your tries. Habana's 2nd try is probably more to do with Habana's class.

1. Nonu failing to tackle in midfield and leaving it to one of the forwards
2. Barrett failing to tackle Jean 
3. The boys failing to tackle Willie

Also I think Hore and Cole will be having extra lineout throws before the Wallabies 3rd Test to ensure their throws to short Aaron Smith at the back of the lineout are more accurate.

So we still have things to work on


Saffex

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Posts: 8812
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 07, 2013, 01:01:14
No Boklogic, its Morne who was best place to go low, by the time JJ attempted the tackle he was trying from behind and leading with his left shoulder


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1945
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 07, 2013, 21:07:21

 I know Barrett should have been the inside man's but the inside man missed him and it was up to JJ who saw Barrett run straight into his arms. I am not debating whose tackle it should have been, I am merely saying JJ is doing it wrong. Barrett had no right to score that try. JJ had him in his arms but he just want in too soft and high. He should have chop tackled Barrett which is what you do when you are scrambling. Dive with all your weight around the blokes legs chopping him down immediately, not trying to wrap the ball up. You cant do that when you are scrambling.

 

I am not being funny, I am being dead serious now. Juan De Jongh is one of our best defensive scramblers and a great exponent of the chop tackle. Probably testament to the Stormers and WP defensive records and results of the past few years. He is a man that plays with heart and he understands centre play. He knows what is needed on defence. Pity he is not bigger and better on attack.

 

 

Jaque Fourie, for a big man was also brilliant on the scramble. JJ has a lot to learn and he can learn from De Jongh. I dont think it is a case of defensive lines or structures. The boys are in good positions to make the tackles. They just missing 1 on 1's that is all!

 

Ben Smith, Messam and Barrett had no right to score thos tries. Barrett stepped 4 "sheep" Boks all blitzing the touchline like idiots. Messam did the same thing! Those tries should never happen! Smith should have stepped into heavy traffic there and same with Messam! Barrett should have just been an easy tackle by JJ.


clevermike

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Posts: 12433
RE: A few "why's" of the test match!
October 07, 2013, 22:01:42

Boklogic

 

Sorry to wake you up - but De Jongh's reputation on the defence side was badly damaged in Super 15 this year when he missed 25% of all attempted tackles.   That was the highest percentage missed tackles of any other 13 playing for any of the teams from SA.  

 

If that happens in Super 15 - what is going to happen in tests?  

 

I think that there are some really good 13's coming through in CC and we will see how they perform  on Super 15 level next  year.   I believe competition is good - but De Jongh has a hell of a problem - he will have to proof that he can still tackle effectively and that will not be as easy as some might think.


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