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6335 Topic: Where to with De Allende
clevermike

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Posts: 12583
Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 15:47:02
He had a massive game against the Bulls last week - and is bound to start looking at overseas contracts soon. Can anything be done about it? I guess not - because Meyer does not rate the guy.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3070
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 16:24:26

Are you saying that because a player is not currently in the Bok squad, Meyer does not rate him?


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 16:27:17

well i hope not as i reckon he might be a bok in a couple of years as JDV wont last much longer. with WP management nothing is impossible they managed to overlook a player like willie le roux and hordes of other great talent


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 16:30:13
Sure - that is the point - Meyer does not rate the guy.. He is not included in training camps - but Francois Steyn is. Not included even when Serfontein was injured. Ste signs of not rating the guy.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 16:35:28

maybe he should go to toulon then meyer will select him LOL

 

 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3070
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 16:43:25

Mike, read my question again.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 16:59:57
Ceradyne

You must learn to understand Meyer's attitude to players. In April Meyer invited 36 players to the first training camp - even the sick, lame and lazy was included. In May there was a few Cheetahs players and Cartrakilis added to the second training camp - again loaded with the sick, lame and lazy.

Then he selected his squad for the June tests - with only two players added - which was not in the EOYT squad last year - and not in the first training camp - eg Willie le Roux and Lappies Labuschagne. For the RC he went further and dropped Labuschgne from the squad - so we are basically back to his EOYT Squad and the first training camp.

Meyer was not about to have a look at a player like De Allende - he went for De Jongh (despite the latter's disastrous record in Super 15) so it is obvious he does not rate De Allende at all..


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3070
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 17:12:44

I have the names of both the camps. Who were the sick lame and lazies who were included in the first camp?

 

In April, when the training camp was held, it was after round 9. Not even halfway through the S15 competition, so I do not see hwo you can talk about De Jongh's disastrous S15. In the following camp De Jongh was gone.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 19:43:43
Ceradyne

Francois Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Zane Kirchner. Ryan Kankowski - all injured or totally off totally off form - to name a few.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3070
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 20:55:06

What you seem to misunderstand is that, at first, your impression of "off form " is just that. Your impression. You are not the national coach and while you are fully allowed an opinion, it is not your job on the line, and it is not your bigger plan of what is to happen in months to come and what is to be put in place.

 

The second part is that once you have the players that you see as part of your bigger plan, you have to keep them involved, even if they are not physically 100%. You have a deep-rooted dislike in Morne Steyn and it is your right, but he fits in in what Heyneke Meyer has in his planning. Last year a lot of people, including Heyneke Meyer realised that Steyn has been playing too much rugby. It did not take a rocket scientist to work that out. He dropped him out of the team but kept him in and involved in the squad. It paid off. You will obviously disagree, but it has paid off. The same was done with Patrick Lambie. He spent a lot of time with the Bok squad, even though he hardly had any game time. He was there and he was involved and it paid off. This year was a mixed bag for Lambie, because his team went through a bad patch and then there was all the shenanigans at his franchise.

 

Now, as far as De Allende goes, he is a talented player with lots of talent but does that mean that he has to be in the mix right now, at this moment? Is he his teams first option when the team is at full strength, i.e. all the national players back, etc? I don't think so. Yes, Serfontein was injured at a time, but it is clear that he is in the mix and should rightfully be in the mix. At the time of the training camps, it was already clear that he was going to be in teh team, once fit again. It was after all only trianing camps in preperation for tests to come. De Allende's time will come, if he stays in contention. Remmeber the expression: "All good things.........."

 

I have probably wasted my time typing out all of this, because you would probably start of with a personal attack telling me that I am stupid, knows nothing and that I have been lying as well.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 22:03:10
Ceradyne

Once you are reasonable - you are a different person. Let me explain - by the time Kankowski was called up he was not even in the Sharks team. It is universally known that Francois Steyn was unfit and slow and on the Sharks bench and that was where he would have remain - but for the injury to Jordaan. At the time of the first training camp. It was not only my idea - it was evidently what Plumtree thought negatively about the two players as well. The others were injured and could not attend he actual practical training session.

What bothered me about the first training camp was the number of players who should not have been there.

As to Morne Steyn - I do think there is a lot of people in fact who do not like his playing style - I am only one of many I think. Problem is he fits perfectly into the playing style expected by Meyer. Meyer believes sincerely in the kicking game as an attack strategy - hence also the way Pienaar play. However, the strategy depends on kicking accuracy - and that is where both fail to deliver. The strategic kicking of both is not up to standard and often represents merely handing over of possession to the opposition. The problem most people have with Morne is that he really is not the pivot for attacking backline play. He stand too deep in the pocket and that neutralizes his passing game. Since he himself never attacks the gain line - the defenders go for the recipient of the ball and ignores him completely from a defensive perspective. . I and may others will never regard Morne Steyn as the answer to our flyhalf situation - he is just too one-dimensional. The opposition read him in advance and take counter-measures. He is by all accounts a very decent guy and I have personally nothing against him.

I also accept that de Allende played only limited games since the CC final last year - but when he got playing opportunities he showed real value. Problem is that the Stormers insisted on the De Villiers-De Jongh center combination. Meyer had very little opportunity to see the full value of de Allende - I grant you that one.

There is one other thing where I agree with Meyer's opinion and that is ball recovery from breakdown situations. The unfortunate thing is he has to rely on Bismarck to do the job there - because the loosies whose really should be the key are too slow to get to breakdown points in time. Even when get there they are poor in recovery and the game is slowed down as a result.. The ball recovery is slow and ineffective and the ball recovery by our loosies is minimal compared to what it should be. .


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8934
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 18, 2013, 22:26:16

de Allende is the real deal........he has that ability to beat tackles and impose himself physically. He would be in my starting side on the wing. I'd have Willie at 15 where he belongs, with de Allende and Habana on the wing.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 09:01:40
[removed]

The solution you suggested is to my mind spot on. De Allende in his first games for WP played on the wing - so it is an acceptable proposal.


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 518
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 10:11:41

 The thing that getst on my tits is the fact Coetzee only select Howard for one game. What the hell!!!!!

In their first game for WP, De Allende and Howard combined beatifully. Now they are back to their midget size quota players. 

We need to get Howard and De Allende playing together, they are the future of WP and the boks centres, forget JJ and De Villiers to play in 2015. We got time to get these guys playing at a higher level. 

I really rate Serfontein too but they are making way to much hyped, the kid is turning into a bash it up centre. Probably be better for him if he went to the cheetahs. At least he will learn how to play with the ball


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8934
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 13:36:49
Agreed King, Howard had two good games for WP in the CC, got injured and is now back playing for the U21's. Why on earth is he not on the WP bench given the warped need to start de Jongh at 13. Howard is far better than de Jongh and should be starting. The fact that he does not make the match 23 is absurd.

Same can be said of young lock Ruan Botha, he partnered Etzebeth in the Baby Bok side and is now playing in the WP U21 side.

While Grobelaar looks ok, he lacks physicality. Botha at 118kg and 2.05m is just what WP need. I know he was out injured earlier in the season, but yet again Coetzee seems to be missing a trick here.


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 518
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 14:26:02

 [removed], have you heard of this fella,Taz Fuzani, Coetzee have select to start on Friday. Whats up with these quota selections. Last year we had to put up with Marcel Brach who was no professional rugby player, not we have to put up with these


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8371
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 14:41:26
Actually if you study de Allende's stats, his tackling in the S15 was pretty poor. He isn't really a creative passer and offloads rather infrequently. So he is a power runner, who get's stopped by the better teams....and the ball dies with him. Maybe wing would be a good idea but he might get gassed....the lad is no gas man as Joel would say. The muddy fields up north might suit him.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 15:06:54
Mozart

With respect - he is definitely not a worse defender than de Jongh. He is anything but only a power runner and has ball sense. The few times when he was actually in the Stormers team for full matches he was good - showing that he was not only a power runner - but very difficult to defend against allowing for off-loads at the same time.

When playing for the WP prwviously he was on the wing and definitely not slow. If he was slow - he would not have scored the try he did on Saturday. He kicked a ball followed up by Aplon - who caught the bouncing ball and passed to De Allende. Is Aplon slow?


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8371
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 15:29:30

Nope Aplon  isn't slow....but de Allende is just Trevor Halstead reincarnated.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 15:52:05
Mozart

You always dream up something to try and discredit players - and not very accurate at that either. I look at games and see the actual performances - vastly different from you who are at best extremely prejudiced, ignore actual play and try to find reasons to emphasize negative aspects.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8371
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 15:58:38

You guys go on and on and on and on about all these new players who are the next must players for the Boks. Who  has emerged in two seasons since the RWC....Etzebeth and maybe Willie. It's all speculative and over blown. So I'm not dreaming up anything Oom, I'm waiting for proof..... You are the dreamer.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 16:21:02
Mozart

At least we dream about a better future for SA Rugby. You are living in the past and support major failures who were or are in the Springbok team. We see what went wrong over the past four years - you refuse to even consider who failed during that time and wants to keep the failures in the team.

You want to retain at all cost Morne Steyn - who cave in under pressure - as he did last Saturday and in the Super 15 final - proving again he has no BMT. You want at all costs to retain a weak player like Kruger, and a back row which malfunctions when they meet with strong opposition. I elsewhere posted the stats of the loosies in the test in Soweto last year - and it was a horror story at best. No ball carries and the total number of tackles made by the three together is less than what is expected from 1 loose forward. That deficiency proved very expensive last year - and it will be the same this year.

You cannot play with failing players and it is much better to change them than to allow them to continue failing


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8371
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 17:14:11
The same Morne Steyn Keo picks for his RC team. The guy who made that brilliant kick for Lambie's try. Look Maaik you don't have as much information as Meyer, and he has you by 15 IQ points. So I ask you with tears in my eyes, how are you going to make a better decision?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 17:27:36
Mozart

One good kick and 6 bad ones by Morne Steyn - one of which was a penalty kick that never made the sideline. Virtually all the kicks were mere handover of possession to the AB's and that is a fact. Meyer is a bloody fool - if you have not found out that yet - you are not as clever as I take you to be.

I know we are snookered by Meyer in this case - he will persist with the colourless amd utterly prefictable Morne Steyn - come hell or high water. But then we will never beat the AB's and should ask a reasonable question - why not? It is that which should be the key issue.

In the main the answer is - because we persist with poor performers when there are others who have proved that they perform better. That unfortunately is where we are at present.


flashdakota

Status: Squad member
Posts: 336
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 19, 2013, 22:23:55

@[removed]

Gotta disagree regarding de Allende.

I'm not convinced he has what it takes (speed wide) to be a top class wing.

Also, i find him to be fairly 1 dimensional at 12.

Sure, he has at times shown some deft touches on attack, and is a very good defender, but i feel that for international rugga, you need more than that. A 12 needs to have a bit of spark and good vision.

 

I'm not for 1 minute saying that we have anyone better! But I dont't think he has what it takes to ignite a Bok backline.

 

I'm hoping J Serfontein has a cracking 2014 season! I think they should have kept him at Currie Cup this year to get some more game time, and then start blooding him next year.

In saying that, I also understand that Meyer wants to expose him to international rugga slowly.

 

Saf... what was our Junior Bok 12's name? The coloured fella? He also looked incredible until he got injured!

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8934
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 20, 2013, 00:10:18

Flash, de Allende is not a 12, I reckon his spot is 13.......he is not your creative/flair type of player, he is more of a finisher who relies on strength and a good step. Not sure where Moz gets his take on his defence as he is a damn good defender as you say.

 

He has the credentials to make a good centre as his physicality takes him over the advantage line.

 

The coloured centre who played for the Baby Boks played 13, his name is Justin Geduld, far too small for senior rugby, does not even weigh 80kg. He is part of the Bok 7's squad, that is where his future lies.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1950
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 20, 2013, 02:20:15

Lets look at it objectively. Is De Allende good enough in the centres for 2015. I will list a few reasons why he is not:

Jean De Villiers

Jan Serfontein

Robert Ebersohn

Pat Howard

Stokkies Hanekom

 

Just a few players mentioned above more likely to create tries than De Allende. Is he good enough for the wing in 2015. A few more reasons why he is not:

 

Bryan Habana

Willie Le Roux

JP Pietersen

Gerhard Van Den Heever

Anyone faster than De Allende that has not been listed, feel free.

 

Way too many okes on here just willing to dish out Bok caps. Mike, you seem very anti about a lot of the Bok selections. Lets put there last game into perspective. The ref [removed]ed them in a huge way yet we restricted NZL to 4 tries. Let me tell you something. NZL only had 1 forward on that field that could slightly match Bizzy and that is Read. Smart player but he is also very McCaw like in the way he is clever and devious. Often doing illegal [removed]. Bizzy was terrorising the AB's at the breakdowns and in his short time on (14 mins) before the card, he already stole 2 balls and made some big carries. More than their specialist fetcher in Cane!

We lost Bizzy and Alberts. That changes everything. Those are our two biggest ball carriers. Our game plan revolves around our big guys mauling and carrying and so on. How can we play our game plan with just Vermuelen and Etzebeth! Had the AB's lost Read and Whitelock, would their pack have been able to stop our pack pushing their scrum around? Smashing their forwards into the ground and picking up tries at will? NEVER!

 

NZL scored a try from an early 5m line-out. Easiest time to score. Another when Bizzy was off and had to grind for another 2. No flash back line moves. They had a grind against a 7 man Bok pack.

 

This is a good Bok team. We dont need to make too many changes now. We just need this team to grow into a formidable unit. We cant keep changing. We will never get combinations going!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 20, 2013, 06:50:11
boklogic

Sure thing that there are very good players in the Springbok squad - but there are also very questionable and even poor performing players in the squad. I have nothing against them personally and have written repeatedly who the under-performers are.

Our main weakness is in the critical half back combination - with especially the scrummie and to a lesser degree the one-dimensional and easily countered performances of Morne Steyn. He is really not the best flyhalf in the world and even Sanchez of the Pumas is a better performing flyhalf than he is.

One of our major problems remain the rather immobile and at times clumsy back row. Quick ball recovery by clumsy players are not the answer and we actually have to depend on Bismarck to perform a function that is the prime responsibility of the loosies. If you want to see how bad the combination is Just look at the stats for the Soweto test last year. They were nowhere in sight.

We need improvement amongst our props and we need a better player to partner Etzebeth as a lock. We cannot keep on playing under-performers like Jannie du Plessis and Steenkamp as props. I really cannot see a reason for Steenkamp being in the squad. He regularly fails to make the starting line-up of Toulouse - yet Meyer seems to be "married" to the idea to have him in the squad.

There needs to be some improvement required - especially since the squad has not been really successful against stronger opposition - but adequate against weaker teams.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 20, 2013, 08:20:33

 

Oh brother ... now Howard's a class act ... funny, last week he was dog [removed] ... I guess it goes from day to day with ol Stupid, huh?

 

Smoke a spliff today and Howard's good ...get back on the meths tomorrow and suddenly he's awful.

 

Tell me Stupid, what's it gonna be today??

 

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaaaaaaa ... De Allende a Bok wing????

 

And I suppose you fancy HouGat at 9, huh ... or ... wait ... Jantjies at 10 ... right??

 

Shampies!!!  Never mind, Stupid. I know your trying ...

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 20, 2013, 08:49:08
Cleancut

I am not going to get into the arguments between you and [removed]. My main point is that I do believe that -

* we cannot beat the AB's with our present squad, because of identified efficient players with a record of poor performances; and

* I do believe that De Allende is under-rated by many readers - he really is a good player - and that he had to contend this year inb okaying second fiddle to De Villiers and when he did play he had to put up with Jantjies and De Jongh - both being very poor in Super 15.

Eve though he still have to put up with De Jongh - he on Saturday just decided to ignore that one and played a very good game himself. I did see him playing on the wing in a number of games and really rate the guy highly. Lets see how he develops in future though. We do have a problem with Kirchner and I would not be averse to idea of De Allende on the wing and Le Roux at full back.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 20, 2013, 08:49:23
Cleancut

I am not going to get into the arguments between you and [removed]. My main point is that I do believe that -

* we cannot beat the AB's with our present squad, because of identified efficient players with a record of poor performances; and

* I do believe that De Allende is under-rated by many readers - he really is a good player - and that he had to contend this year inb okaying second fiddle to De Villiers and when he did play he had to put up with Jantjies and De Jongh - both being very poor in Super 15.

Eve though he still have to put up with De Jongh - he on Saturday just decided to ignore that one and played a very good game himself. I did see him playing on the wing in a number of games and really rate the guy highly. Lets see how he develops in future though. We do have a problem with Kirchner and I would not be averse to idea of De Allende on the wing and Le Roux at full back.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 20, 2013, 09:49:29

 

There is a very big difference between a good player and a Bok.

 

De Allende reminds me a lot of Robbie Fruean. Big powerful runner that will never amount to much cause that’s all he is … a big powerful runner. He needs a skillful inside man to set things up for him cause he doesn’t have the talent to do it himself. He had a cracker of a season when playing outside SBW a few seasons back but fell away completely when this dynamic talent was replaced by a talentless average Joe like Crotty.

 

There’s a whole lot more needed to make it at the top. He doesn’t have it. A player cannot always depend on someone else’s efforts to look good. He has to create his own opportunities at times, as well as that for his fellow team mates.

 

Sorry Mike … I don’t rate De Allende at all. I know Stupid does but hey … what’s new … the fool’s confused at the best of times.He has difficulty determining which is his arse and which is his elbow.

 

With regards to the Bokke … I believe we have what it takes to beat the All Blacks … even with this team. The same team you keep shooting down … yes I do agree that it needs a tweak here and there but little snippets of brilliance has shown itself and Meyer’ll get it right. We need to be patient with him. His passion to do us proud is all I need to support him.

 

Besides … the All Blacks are not as special as we keep hearing from their one eyed supports. They’ll have us believe they’re invincible but a little physicality and they go off limping … holding shoulders and throats … [removed]ing all the way ... calling for red cards and such like.

 

Willie Le Roux is not a full back … he’s a wing. He has shown that countless times … at super rugby and now at the Bokke. Leave him where he is. We need to find another 15 … not another wing.

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8934
RE: Where to with De Allende
September 20, 2013, 10:03:03
Old Cancer[removed] is talking rugby.............look out. He rates Howard as his Bok 13 but has an issue with de Allende.

Cancer[removed], kindly point out the difference between Howard and de Allende you ignorant [removed]


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