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5987 Topic: Boks back to being useless
Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8946
Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 11:24:11

and the passengers were exposed for who they are. Only two players came out with any credibility after that test and they were Etzebeth and Vermeulen, for the rest they were either average on the day or should not have been there in the first place.

 

Willie had a game to forget as did Habana. Surley the ineffective, defensively liable Basson will never play for the Boks again, he is useless. JJ and Jean had little to do, Morne was his usual boring self and its time for Pienaar to go. Pienaar is indecisive and adds no zip at all.

 

In the forwards we started the scrums well then seemed to lose ground for some unknown reason. The frontrow was at best solid, Steenkamp was yet again exposed, but stupid Meyer will no doubt retain him. Etzebeth is a far better line-out jumper that Kruger will ever be. Kruger was pathetic, as Bob Skinstad said, his lack of physicality in clearing out rucks is a concern. He adds no value to the Bok side at all, he is a liability.

 

Louw has been ineffective in both tests to date, he is not an openside flankers backside. Alberts is past his best, he too often goes awol. Elstadt or v/d Walt are far better option and I dont get why they are both overlooked by short sighted Meyer.

 

That was a pathetic Bok performance given the display the week before. Therein lies the difference between this Bok side carrying too many passengers and the AB side. Could you imagine the AB side putting 60 points over a side one week and scraping by the next.

 

Where was Jean's leadership in that game


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 11:42:36
[removed]

I largely shares your views on the issue of performances of players - but there is one issue that really bothers me as well - and that is the glaring lapses in defence displayed by Engelbrecht - it really was not good enough. The second try scored by Bosch is virtually the entire fault of Engelbrecht .

Aside from Pienaar - I also have the same problem with Morne Steyn - he was static and one-dimensional - he is not a flyhalf tht can effectively serve as a backline pivot.

Insofar as the loose forwards are concerned - they never showed anything - arriving at breakdowns after the Pumas loosies have already done their thing of pushing the defenders backwards and securing possession. Even Vermeulen was late at those points. I do believe we cannot go into the rest of the Championships without regard to the speed of the loosies. They will - like happened in Soweto last year - just vanish from sight. If the Pumas loosies could do that to them - just think what the Aussie and AB loosies would do to them. More speed and better tackling also in midfield and even further out is essential and they should be there to assist in ball retention and recovery.

Insofar as Kruger is concerned I believe that he should go - they cannot carry a passenger amongst the tioght five - and he is a passenger.

The other obvious player to be left out is Basson - useless in defence.

Time for Meyer to wake up or he won't survive this year. With the present crowd we will lose the remainder of the Championship games - as well as against the French and the Welsh on the EOYT - wins against minor Unions and losses against all the others - what a show.

There needs to be a serious adjustment of approach - with the present lot we are going to be badly beaten by both


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8946
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 11:55:53

See Mike this is where your rugby ignorance is exposed. Go check the try by the 13 again. Jannie is the man marking the 13, JJ is covering wider......JJ does not trust his prop on the inside to make the tackle given its a centre on a prop, he tries to adjust and can only go high and is off balance........the execution was poor, but had everything to do with Jannie not quick enough to make the initial hit.

 

That is not Jannie's fault as he is a prop.......its just the reality of broken play when a prop ends up in the defensive line. So you choose to ignore the cir[removed]stances of the situation, when it was clear that JJ felt exposed on the inside. Had Jean been on his inside then Jean would have made the tackle and JJ would have covered the outside........that is the fact of the matter.

 

JJ has to go high and is totally unaligned, he hardly gets a hand on the 13...............for the rest of the match, JJ defence was spot on. The day JJ starts missing one on one tackles in structured backline play, is the day we need to start to worry.

 

In broken play you need to take cir[removed]stances into consideration, having a prop on your inside covering a 13 is never a good thing, no wonder JJ was left wanting........test players expose these mismatches.......that is what happened.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 12:45:56
[removed]

An excuse - but I am afraid not a good enough one - and that is he unfortunate part of the issue. JJ unfortunately does not have an entirely spotless record on defence - there were lapses from time to time that makes him look vulnerable and in test matches vulnerability is a deadly "sin".

I would rather like to see JJ on the wing than not in the team at all. He is a natural wing and am afraid after nearly two years at center - there are still defensive lapses on his part. That is where the problem really lies.

However, JJ is not the main problem encountered yesterday - the other problems highlighted by you are all glaringly so. Why was our ball retention so poor and why were we unable to protect the ball when players are tackled. It all centers around the back row combination. You said Ve3rmeulen was OK - but he also went missing in that phase of the game. He caught a few kick-ins - made a few meters with each - and then died with the ball. Nowhere to be seen anywhere near tackle situations and nowhere in sight to ensure breakdown recovery - really a poor show.

Pienaar and Kruger were pathetic and all Mozart's praise singing brought down tin flames. If this is the kind of show they put up against the Argentinians - what the hell would happen later in the series. A really sick collection of real rubbish and that says it all.

McKenzie and Hansen has probably already read the signs - just like the Pumas did - and that is move the ball wide - and there would be no Springbok forwards anywhere to help with ball recovery and overturns. They must be licking their lips and think another Soweto performance of last year is on the cards.

WHAT A FIASCO!!!!!


Blikkies

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 87
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 13:57:28

Our front row should be Coenie, Strauss and Jannie. Jannie is not ideal, but better than Coenie @ 3.

Meyer should get Bakkies back as a partner for Etzebeth - that is until PSdT is ready.

Flo and Kolisi should be our loosies untill Arno Botha is back.

Fourie du Preez should come back and SARU must just find the funds to let that happen.

Vermeulen is not ideal (a bit slow), but his grunt against Oz and ABs will be needed.

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 15:24:52
Blikkies

Grunt is possibly 5% of the loosies game - the other 95% has to be the ability to be near to the movement of balls and the need to defend an attack as well. Louw has ball sense and - although relatively slow - he is miles faster than Vermeulen and Alberts. That makes it unsuitable to play him as a loosie in faster moving games. Move the ball wider quickly and we have no loosies on the field of play and am stuck with 8 forwards who have grunt - but who cannot play a constructive role in rugby for 90% of the game..

That happened in Soweto last year - with all of Vermeulen. Alberts and Louw on the field of play and it happened yesterday - even with the less influential loosies of the Pumas. It would kill us off against the likes of the AB's and Wallabies this year - and that is the same three will be the players that will ruin our chances in the remaining tests of the Championship. You can - with a stretch play them in slower moving games in the NH - but definitely not in the Championship and definitely not against a team like France. One may be reasonable - three together is as good as a death penalty in games against the AB's and the Wallabies.

Just one question - how do you get a player like Du Preeez out of Japan - without paying huge damages in a court case that would involve as much money as it is to pay half the stipends of the whole Springbok team?. Du Preez should have realized when he signed that contract that he was out of contention to play for the Springboks - and he signed it with both eyes open. Much as he is being missed I am afraid there is nothing that we can do without really bad side-effects in contractual terms.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 15:34:38

Louw is no open sider and he will be exposed even more against teams that play more up tempo. if the pace of the game is too high you can expect louw to be nothing more than a passenger. louw pienaar and steenkamp are epic failures i am sorry to say.

 

LOUW MUST GO


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 15:45:27
Carpetmuncher

I actually am 100% with you in your summary of the situation and although I have some hesitation on the Louw issue - he was in fact "absent" from the game in the Soweto test last year and the same thing happened yesterday and will inevitably happen in tests against the AB's and the Wallabies.

However, the slow carthorse loosies is what Meyer wants above everything else and that is where we are going to go down with a vengeance. What is he really up to?


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 15:54:49

as always mike your spot on. seems like you have a higher rugby IQ than old meyer.

 

To be fair i have no idea mike. louw is only effective when the teams that the boks play against dont generally play towards to ruck. teams like AB and wallies as you do know target that area or the game more than any other side and mark my words old loopy louw will be left on the back burner again. his selection make close to zero sense seeing that you have already 2 massive ball carriers like alberts and vermeulen. the normal approach would have been to pick a ligher smaller faster open sider to counter the others lack of athletic abilty. meyers inablity to indentify this area once again shows his ignorance. a player like brussouw would have filled that gap nicely but the overweight plonker louw still enjoys the time of day. why i dont understand. since his reselection he as had some moments of brillance but beyond that nothing that makes me a firm believer he is the one of the open side role.

 

pienaar ont he other hand was made to look like a snot nosed school girl with his service. du preez would have given that much needed speed at the ruck. fourie needs to be bought out of this contract asap.we need him badly


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8374
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 16:44:43
I think Blikkies may be on the right track here. Shift Coenie to loosehead....he seems to be scrumming better without the hit. I think I would still start with the Beast though. If Bakkies is still Bakkies we could do with his presence. Kruger hasn't imposed himself and face it, Flip Flop is a useless bugger. Both Mike and Blikkies want one faster flank, and they are right. I'm blessed if I can see who that flank should be though.

-

In the backs the F du Preez call is obvious. I would shift Willie to wing as a positive move. If we want him popping up all over the place, sparking things, wing gives him more licence. Failing that I would retain him at 15. The centre situation is a potential disaster. JJ has had a role in 2 of the three Bargie tries. If Willie stays at 15, I would move JJ to wing. But in either case, my centres would be Jean and Serfontein....I have confidence in them.


Blikkies

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 87
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 17:56:05

Moz, the faster flank you are asking for is Arno Botha, but while he is injured we may consider Kolisi (tend to vanish in tight games, but overall he is reasonably fast). Another option could be Deon Fourie.

edit: Oh I forgot to say - Minnie remains an option for me, but Meyer will never select him because there is this believe that he leaks too many penalties and his discipline is not good.

Minnie again had a blinder this weekend for the Lions against the Blue Bulls.


Arthur John

Status: Squad member
Posts: 597
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 18:14:51

Until the Boks get an attacking/thinking flyhalf the backline will always be lacking.

JDV is not what he was 4 years ago, time for him to move over.

Bizzie should be captain and Doctor dup is playing out of his league.

My backline would be the following:

15 Lambie

14 Habana

13 JJ

12 Serfontein

11 Willie

10 Goosen when fit /the Guy who played for the Kings in Supert15

9 Fourie

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 18:23:08
Mozart

In essence I would prefer even two faster flanks than we have now - one at least will help a lot. There are in fact only three candidates available and they are Coetzee, Kolisi and Labuschagne. Of those three I think the better all round flank is Labuschagne - even though you do not like him at all. He made more tackles, made more turnover balls and took more line out balls than the other two player mentioned combined. He did particularly well against the Australian and New Zealand loosies and that shows that he has the necessary speed and ball carrying capacity.

I have my reservations about Coetzee - because he is limited to defence and very little else. Kolisi was good when he came on as impact player against the weakish sides the Springboks met thus far - but he was very limited in Super 15 games in the Australian and New Zealand sides they played against.

All three have limitations - but all three are in fact better players than Alberts in most facets of the game.

Bliksem mentions Fourie and Minnie as opensideras - but the two will never make the grade on international level. Both are penalty machines and those are facts of life and has been proven game after game.

The other issue where I in fact agree with you is the center situation. Sharkbok posted a video recording and it clearly showed that Engelbrecht's attempt to tackle Bosch was weak and totally ineffective. [removed] blame Du Plessis for the miss - but that is not true. The first weak attempt was that of Engelbrecht - sad to say. As good as Engelbrecht can be on attack - as poor he is in defence. Maybe with the help of the outside line he could make a better go at wing - but at center he is extremely vulnerable - almost on par with your hero Fruean.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 25, 2013, 22:26:57

kolisi arno botha and coetzee are in essence more mobile ball carriers but lack the skilset of playing towards the ball come ruck time. playing them might extend the range of your back in terms of speed the ruck will be a bridge to far needless to say. the sad truth is the SA rugby system does not breed the likes of hooper and mccaw/po[removed]. brussouw was a freak in that respect. fourie play more towards the ball at the ruck but just lacks that edge. coetzee and botha are the same so you can pick them both. kolisi might be the better bet but he is not a true open sider sadly.

 

in terms of the backline one cant lay to much blame at there feet as the type of ball they got was nothing short of rubbish. the ball they did get steyn somehow through it those ball into the "steyn blackhole" where nothing every seems to happen when he has the ball other than kicking it blindly. if the ruck speed quickens the likes of le roux and co will run amok on the pitch.

 

i agree mike JJ has a issue on defence but he is learning though but with the likes of nono and co waiting i am sure they will test that weaker outside tackle arm of his.


Rugganut

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 183
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 07:42:33

Our coach is [removed]e, will never get beyond [removed]e and [removed]e he will stay.

 

Beast played the ball once in 4 tests. Jannie is just there cos he can be there. Does nothing. Hookers are great and let them fight it out who plays, no pronblem. Eben locks by himself. We do not have another lock in the Bok team at the moment but plenty of great players in the CC. Loosies are a selection joke. Flow and Alberts should not be there, we have much better talent in the CC. Lappies is a must now. Duane needs help and should stay but if there was a change Meyer would bring back Spies as first choice. Fool.

Pienaar is a joke and an insult to the 9's we have. At worst we could play Sarel but we have a fit Reinach, van Zyl and Screuder all in front of him. Steyn must go. Again at worst bring in the 'Cat' with Lambie, SP Marais and Zeilinger all possibilities.

Serfontien and JJ ia a must, simple as that. Brian is what he is and is an aoutomatic.

A solution for a winger and fullback should be found between SP Marais, Willie, Jean, Rhule, Lambie, Eberson (to help the loosies with turnovers).

SA Rugby and the national side is an absolute mess and just wait, if it continues like this, lets see what a mess it will be when we are finished our two away games of the Championship.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 09:05:44

the thing is the team looks and are chosen the same there is no variety at all. forwards are all the same. louw is for me by far the biggest issue. that is what worrys me to no end. his skillset unbalances everything. alberts and vermeulen are ball carriers and that is there role you dont expect them to force a turnover on the deck its not there skills and not what there are picked for.

 

the AB and wallies will see this and when they whip up the pace of the game expect the overpaid tourist aka louw to be nothing more than a passenger during the whole game


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 518
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 09:08:22

 I don't know what you guys are going on about but for me I thought our tactics were completely wrong. Two things I hate about Meyers game plan. Channel 1 bash up and a fly half that sits deep in the pocket. Our ball carriers got exposed by not having enough support and getting isolated . I also think that morne and pienaar need to be blamed for this. Their passing to the forwards was terrible. 

The kick chase was my other problem. We caught the ball on our 10 meter line, morne reverts to type and bombs it down the field. The chaser fails to catch it. The Argy backs runs it back, few offloads later are on our 10 meter line with ball in hand. Dagg and co ripped us to shreds last year with the exact same tactics. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 09:26:02
Kingcorn

Have to agree with you in this case. That really is a neat summary of the situation as to the Meyer game plan. Could in theory work - but never does because of his player selection. Meyer's go on about ball recovery from breakdowns - but he does not select players who can support the concept - since the whole lot of his forwards and loosies in particular are too slow to arrive at breakdown points timeously..

The playing style goes back to the Meyer theory developed in 2004-05 and has not changed since then. It is obvious that the opposition has worked out counter-measures and those are now in full use against us. Is there no Plan B? If there is anything - there is no evidence of that at present.

Yes - Morne is back to stand so far back in the pocket - and since he himself virtually never take the ball forward - any passes to players outside of him turns into hospital passes - as the opposition centres all their attention on the first and second recipient and movements are killed of consequently. In the case of the weaker teams the Springboks played against this year - Morne stood flatter - bar the game against Scotland - and the results showed a vast difference.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 09:56:46

spot on mike and corn.....the meyer rugby template consists of bashing the oppposing team into the ground. that is the only plan and if the other team forwards matches them in terms of the contact point the meyer game plan falls to bits. there is nothing left to attack.....

 

mike as you said he talks the talk but does not walk the walk in terms of selections. the real test will come against the wallies and mark my words they are in for a rude awakeing. meyers plan of attack is far to rigid and its stuck in the medievil ages of rugby.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 10:17:41

 

 

 AJ please, Jean was the best back on the field. Morne got high ratings from the various rating agencies yet ou maaaike goes on like this.  Your predicitng Morne would implode goal kicking wise couldnt have been more wrong hahahahahhaa

Please read my post re where are the boks and get back on track or rather on track as the word back is dubious in this context.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 11:06:37

 

It’s not a matter of suddenly becoming useless. Their collapse under pressure was inevitable. It was just a matter of time before the cracks widened to gaping holes. Remember their performance against Scotland?

 

The Pumas were awful last week and decided to stand up and play a little this week. We were tested and found wanting … as expected.

 

JJ is trouble with a capital T. He doesn’t have the first inkling on how to play defensively. Not a clue. He’s just a lad with a lot of gas. Should be dropped immediately.  Not a Bok. That much is very clear now. How much longer are we gonna have to suffer his ignorance??

 

It’s going to be interesting down under. Reckon this is our last win of the championship.

 

Thing is … we just need a few tweaks and our team will be transformed.

 

Is it really that difficult to see???

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 12:55:15

spot on cleancut it does not take a rocket scientist to see that the meyer crew's senseless game plan wont bring nothing to the SA public but tears and anger.

 

this is not entertainment this torture....watching the boks play is like being forced to listen to a backstreet boys marathon weekend nonstop......


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8374
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 14:31:30
Delightful gibberish. I read lots of comments about dropping Morne, who saved the test, but not one credible comment about who would replace him. - I read about how Jean, who was splendid on Saturday has to be dropped.....and JJ who missed his man for a try, has to be retained.

-

Jannie has to be dropped. Kruger has to be dropped for Lood, who was totally dominated by the Stormers a few weeks ago.....and Etzebeth has to be played out of position at 5.

_

Now we need Labuschagne .....but would he really have fronted in a brutal tight test like the one in Bargieland?

-

As I pointed out before, everybody disagrees with Meyer, but there is no concensus on the alternative selections. In truth, we would rather not have played this game and Argentina were ready to give up their lives after being told they were useless. But we figured out a way to win and discovered a few problem areas to fix..


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 15:25:29

truth be told there is not other options in this squad to pick from......under the game pattern that we are playing and the style of coaches and methods in place its like polishing turd...or as the texas like to say it does not matter how you prefume a pig it still stays a pig. the meyer game plan required 150 % commitment and energy or else the gain dominance pattern falls to bits and ast he result he has picked his team and squad to that. the issues of the breakdown wont be fixed as neither kolisi nor botha has that skillset so what do we have to pick from ? louw is the poor mans brussouw and we are stuck with that. the backline has zero penatration as morne is so deep and lateral that he provides no go forward. slow width and speed of pass that has been a cancer in his rugby for years once again shines its rather ugly head.

 

the issues are not just selection related to the issues wont be fixed by merely swopping a few players around. meyer has no structures in place in terms of picking players according to roles but his blue bull pattern and after looking at the lions destroy them over the weekend one has to ask is that the model or rugby we want to impose on the world ?

 

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 15:27:10
Mozart

Sorry - but you misread the game on Saturday completely. There was no brutal tight test in the real sense of the word. The Pumas took the ball wide on every conceivable time and their loosies made sure they are near the Puma ball carriers and near enough to push the Springboks off the ball when they were tackled. Nothing brutal about that - it was the tactics the Wallabies and All Blacks will use against us.

In everyone of the above case scenarios - none of the Springbok forwards was near enough to offer any resistance whatsoever - and that is where the Argentinians got the upper hand. By a brutal forward game you surely mean a tight game - which this one was not.

In a game like this it is ten times better to have a player like Labuschagne on the field of play than the snail slow loosies Meyer in fact played. However, that is beside the point - most commentators on this site feels that -

* Morne is too one-dimensional to be effective as a flyhalf - it is not as if kicking at goal is the only ability required from a flyhalf - but all aspects of flyhalf play that is important. Why don't you ask yourself some simple questions? How effective was his kicking game? How effective was his passing game? Did he stand too deep in the pocket to allow for effective backline play? Did he ever try and go forward and give the backline a forward going ball? None of it is in evidence - if you really answer the above questions honestly. Do we need a flyhalf that is a good goal kicker and otherwise a handicap for the team as a whole?

* Kruger - who was utterly useless in the Mendoza tests and has a record of being domnated by all teams he plays against is suddenly acceptable - while the one game in which De Jager was according to you totally dominated by the opposition - the stats do not really confirm that domination. You also conveniently did not mention the play-off game against the brumbies where De Jager was really dominating. I cannot agree with you about kruger being the real thing - he is anything but and is - like Denny says so cryptically - USELESS. So what is wrong in suggesting he needs to be replaced?

Will the present problem areas as you said be fixed? You do not go into detail about what you regard as problem areas - and when those have been identified - how will they be fixed? Cone now - give us some more details of the problem areas and how they will be fixed as you see it - then we can continue this discussion.

On one point I think most members are in agreement that Engelbrecht should be moved away from the crucial no 13 position or dropped - but for [removed] - so that does not really bothr us on the Board - we knew the standard explanation would be given by [removed].


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 15:35:48

i concur mike...nothing that the pumas on the pitch was mindblowing at all just basic SH rugby and the bok pack was left ragged and out of shape as the pace or the game at times left them in the cold (mind the pun)

 

the AB and wallies play way more up tempo and i am sure the mckenzie and co watched this game closely and are surely licking there lips


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8374
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 15:48:12
65 from 70 (92.9%) Rucks won 46 from 49 (93.9%)

-

2 from 7 (28.6%) Mauls won 5 from 6 (83.3%)

-

6 won, 3 lost (66.7%) Scrums on own feed 9 won, 0 lost (100.0%)

-

10 won, 1 lost (90.9%) Lineouts on own throw 9 won, 0 lost (100.0%)

-

Argentina on the left ....Boks on the right. So we won a higher percentage of our rucks, mauls, lineouts and scrums.

-

The fact is this notion that the Boks never got to the breakdown is just a fantasy which fits with the preconceived notion that our loosies are slow. But I agree we need a faster loosie when playing NZ and Oz. Unfortunately we don't have a test class player who fits.....as Blikkies says, Arno Botha was that player.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 15:55:42

our loosies arrived at the ruck that split second to late. the recycling speed was nowhere near that what it was in soweto. the pumas had more numbers to the rucks than what we had so the ball that we did won as your stats show was such rubbish quality that the likes of pienaar and steyn had backfoot, slow ball. as you can see the game 70 rucks to 49 is not a huge difference but it shows you played more doesnt.

 

the boks ruck speed was not great only due to louw not doing his job....botha is a faster ball carrier but he is still a ball carrier and not a open sider so he would then need to replace either alberts or vermeulen.....louw's breakdown skills is the reall issue


mozart

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Posts: 8374
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 16:05:21
So we won a higher percentage of our rucks and mauls but we won them more slowly?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 16:07:36
Mozart

Percentages are just that - they do not reflect the game accurately. We carried the ball in a ruck and slowly won it back - percentage wise it is a successful one. They carry the ball wider out wide and won the breakdown quickly and effectively - that is also a successful one - but there is a huge difference between the resulting play.

And our loosies went missing if you watch the game effectively - they arrived late at all the breakdown points and was ineffective. Even if we recovered the ball - it was whilst we were on the back foot - and we will be out of the test next week and easily beaten by the loosie combination of the Wallabies and even more so the All Blacks because of that back row deficiency. This happened in the Soweto test and will recur in the tests to follow.

Our back row is our worst handicap - coupled to our limited scrummie resources in the absence of Du Preez, and the one-dimensional flyhalf we are persisting with. That is our crucial deficiencies and there is nothing that can be done by the present squad to eliminate those deficiencies.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 16:22:48

yes moz at this level just winning your rucks is not enough but without clean quick ruck ball at a high speed defensive lines are to organised to breakdown with slower ball. there was some bad option taking from pienaar and steyn as they wanted to moved bad slow ball and all that does is transfer the pressure from inside to out. steyn laying so deep that the defense lines just shift on does not help running slow ball either. so the worst possible [removed]tail of attacking rugby realised....

 

as mike said correctly the pumas shifted quicker and the boks so the ball coming out was light years ahead than that of the boks. that is why you cant read to much into stats moz as stats dont reflect the game...unless you have a average ruck speed stat that we can have a look at but from the eye the boks were clearly second when it came to the ruck.

 

one can practice turning you ruck speed up but i saw zero adaptablity from the boks in the whole game so it shows meyer and co did not pick up on this which is shocking for me..


KalaedFreddie

Status: Squad member
Posts: 403
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 18:30:51

 Boks back to being useless  And [removed] back to being an [removed].  But then again I suppose he cannot help it, Nê Pappie.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8946
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 19:42:23

Mike just as I expected you are too stupid to understand that JJ's miss was not just a miss and that cir[removed]stances involving a prop on your inside played a big part.......but context and cir[removed]stances are not a strength of yours......your take on rugby has to be simple......just plain black or white.......you dont have the brain capacity to understand the intricacies of what really goes on, on a rugby field.

 

JJ missed that tackle for he was not fully committed, just like Jean missed his earlier on. Funny how nothing was said of that, but because it was JJ, we have his anti brigade jumping on the wagon and wanting to move him to wing.......what a bloody joke.

 

JJ has been a revelation at 13 and any coach with half an ounce of credibility would invest in him there. One average game by Willie because he missed a few damn tough high balls, which he made a great attempt at securing and suddenly he is not the answer at 15.

 

Before we even begin to worry about our class acts like JJ and Willie, the real issue is getting rid of useless passengers like Basson, Pienaar, Kruger, Steenkamp and Alberts and to a lesser extent the likes of Morne, Jean, Jannie and Louw must go. We have far better options in Mvovo, v/d Heever, de Allende, Serfontein, Lambie, v/Zyl, Reinach, Coenie, Nkanyane (who impressed at 3 for the Cheetahs this weekend), Kitshoff, de Jager (who was NOT dominated the Stormers locks and yet again had a great game for the Cheetahs at 5 this weekend), Brussouw, Kolisi, v/d Walt, Elstadt, Coetzee, Labascagne and CJ Stander


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12586
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 26, 2013, 20:01:58
[removed]

Sorry - but I have to differ on the issue of that missed tackle on Bosch. I looked at the video replay as posted elsewhere by Sharkbok. There were in fact two attempted tackles made - the first one by Engelbrecht - which he missed because it was a very weak effort on his part - he did not even try to make an effective tackle and the second one was Du Plessis. There is not a person interested in rugby that would not call Engelbrecht's attempt as weak and very poor.

If Englbrecht can sort out his defence I would be the first one to support his selection at 13 - otherwise I would rather see him on the wing.

For the rest I am in agreement with your comments - Meyer is destroying our chances in winning the tests for the rest of the year by idiotic selection of the same players that let us down last year.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8946
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 13:53:24
Mike try catch a wake up, I never said the execution was good......I am saying that the cir[removed]stances and context of that passage of play caused JJ not to commit fully to the tackle.......what part of that do you not comprehend.

If you have a prop on your inside defending against a centre, chances are you are not going to trust your prop to be quick enough to execute the tackle - hope this part sinks in?

So in the cir[removed]stances, JJ was looking to cover the outside, trusting the man on his inside to cover Bosch with ball in hand (its broken play remember), JJ does not have Jean on his inside. By the time JJ realises its Jannie on his inside, its too late. In trying to adjust to make the tackle on Bosch he has no time to go low and is off balance - he actually hardly gets a hand on him.

That is called context.......had JJ missed Bosch in structured backline play, I would be concerned.......but I know JJ makes his tackles in these cir[removed]stances. Any player can be beaten in broken play when defensive lines are exposed........that is what happened with that try.

Compare that to de Jongh's miss in the CC on the weekend, that was a one on one tackle in structured backline play.......de Jongh went really low and missed his man completely........had JJ done that in the same cir[removed]stances, I'd be concerned.

The day we drop or move JJ from the 13 spot, is the day Bok rugby loses much of its attacking clout. We could play Serfontein or Jean there, but the would be provide little attacking clout as they just do not have the pace and feet that JJ has.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 14:48:08

 

I've been reading your lame excuses for the useless HouGat all year long and I see it coming through thick and heavy for the useless JJ now.

 

Bottom line, Stupid ... you can fabricate as much horse[removed] as possible re JJ ... in the end you'll just humble yourself before us all ... again ... and confess your stupidity and rugby ignorance.

 

So why not spare us the many months of drivel and fess up now ... hmm?

 

How about it?

 

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 14:55:50

Moz thanks for the sanity. Again I say watch how few players the Boks committed to the breaddown. Here I believe was part of the issue. The Pumas pack play more NH style rugby. Mallet identified poor cleaning out by both props and Juandre.

Laying the blame on the looses is unbalanced.

Bok backline certainties if avauilable are du preez, Morne, Jean JJ, Jan Habana Wille and Lambie.  how much has Meyer got wrong precious little. 

But I dont think it has sunk in what a ferocious effort the Pumas put in. Its the reason France is beaten so often.  

 

 


Denny

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1730
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 15:03:03

Dave, you are overrating JJ.....admitedlly he is an athletic type and boy they didn't come more athletic than Spies and look what became of him. Time will tell whether he becomes a decent rugby player, right now I can't say he is.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 15:10:35

yes beeno your 100% right but if you have a look at the footage your boy tourist louw seems to get into the breakdowns every 3 or 4 times after he gets played. as you described him as the hybrid that meyer is after...and much like he motoring coutnerpart the toyota prius is all glitz and glamour but zero substance to its performance. the boks defence pattern requires that they commit less players to the ruck to setup there first tier of defence. on attack louw is even more awol than on defence and he does not shut the ruck down as a proper open sider should do


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 15:18:38

 

Hey Muncher … just curious … when your finished … well … munching … do you ever have that glazed doughnut look about you??


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 15:48:40

yeah me and meyer are identical twins at the most of times LOL


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8946
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 19:29:31

Clean [removed] why do you think you qualify to comment on anything rugby in particular on my knowledge of the game. Ignorance you say when I gave you Etzebeth and Serfontein for a start......lets add Steph du Toit while we are about it. 

 

Bring back Hougaard anyday, anything to rid us of the useless Pienaar......but [removed] I forgot, your rugby prowess has us believe that Kockott is the answer.......[removed] me and you have the audacity to even respond to any posts on here.

 

JJ is a class act, the best attacking 13 we have had since Danie Gerber.......better than Mulder, Joubert and Fourie.........time will prove it.

 

Do us a favour you useless [removed] why not just entertain us with some racism, thats your strength, leave the rugby to those in the know.

 

I dont EVER recall a single meaningful rugby post from you


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 27, 2013, 21:51:50

 Muncher when the tight five are sorted - Coenie, Strauss/Bissie, Malherbe Etxebeth and Du Toit - We especially do not need three big loosies. At the moment I am liking the idea of Fourie, Vermuelen and Louw (7)

Snapster Although I agree with you the JJ has the amkings of a very good outside center - he has the pace footwork and also his distribution skilss are good (Defence is adeqaute and getting better) - I do think that we may need him this RC at least on the wing. 

Bok backline - Du Preez/Vermaak Morne, Habana, Jean Jan, JJ And Willie. Plenty of attacking flair there. You have experience, smarts aand pace. To me if the senior guy is better still play him and introduce the younger man into test rugby with the senior player as mentor. That is the ideal


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 28, 2013, 16:29:03

malherbe ???? dear lord beeno he is not even a first pick for the WP but not is he crucial to the bok cause now as well ? our current tight 5 is the only shining light but it seems much like coetzee and fleck you are getting use to making excuses for why this or why that...nothing wrong with the pack hell its the best tight 5 in the comp in my view. jannie beast straus and co cant be assured they have earned there moneys worth.....the breakdowns are a joke that is where your boy louw is solely to blame....he commited to every 3rd or 4th ruck against the pumas as he lard backside can keep up with the pace the argies were generating......how will he fair against a team like the wallies and ab's that have by far the quickest game pattern you can imagine.

 

now you want to employ a ex hooker in fourie and hope and pray he survives on the international stage ? a man that got schooled by brussouw on so many times i lost count ? coetzee employed 4 counter ruckers against brussouw in the super rugby comp and even then he managed to disrupt the wp ball speed at the ruck. if naka played his tactics a bit differently the wp defence system would have been cracked.

 

vermaak and louw would not even feature in video training session let alone in the team but this is the meyer circus clown show we are forced to endure. nothing wrong with our backs but morne needs to go and with some quick ball and more clever running lines we can be a massive force on attack.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8946
RE: Boks back to being useless
August 28, 2013, 22:21:28

Carpet you need to catch a wake up. Malherbe was the starting 3 for the Stormers and was by some distance the best 3 in SA.

 

Both he and Kitshoff came of age in the scrum this year. Its a bloody disgrace that that useless fat Steenkamp is in the Bok squad ahead of Kitshoff and Nkanyane


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