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5959 Topic: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 532
Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 10:03:21

Its already starting to unravel, Toulon owner has requested that Habana start for duty for his club at the end of the month. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't habana contracted till October.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11952
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 10:26:49

I had thought so king CORN.

Stuff these frogs is all I can say. Waving their filthy lucre and tempting our boys like this. They have No pride in themselves -parasites. Reminds me of the bulle and sharks! animated middle finger (#4)


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12891
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 10:41:48
Easy to say - but Toulon will not pay him anything whilst he is away playing for the Springboks - and SARU will have to fork out the pay similar to what He gets from Toulon. For the duration of the RC it would mean SARU will have to fork out about R700 000 and for three weeks in November another R350 000.

That could convince the lot to let Habana to play in the game on 30 August 2013 for Toulon and then fly him out to Australia the next day. However, lets wait and see what happens.

Incidentally - the same scenario shall apply to other foreign-based players - so the present selections of Meyer will have serious financial problems for SARU. They will have to fork out millions for the RC and is likely to face the same situation in November - unless they change their selection policy. Bad news all round.


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 532
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 11:34:17

 That is the problem with the current system is that foreing clubs comes at the beginning of the year and signs a player. The Unions are only worried about super rugby and its results. When the players gets a big offer it means that they are off their books and no longer have to pay the player. It now becomes SARU problem to try and keep them. 

I think Sanzar needs to put a law in that local players can only be approached after the Southern Hemisphere season and that if the foreing clubs want to release them earlier then they would have to be a release few to the unions and to SARU. 

Further, I also thinkt hat we need a transfer window


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12891
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 14:17:32
The issue of window periods will have to be addressed by the IRB - SARU on its own cannot achieve that. The other issue is that there needs a a period when transfer contract needs to be signed ie from November to December each year - bot throughout the year as the situation is at present. The other issue is that SARU can arrange that all contracts be referred to them before signi9ng - so as to see whether a counter-offer would be possible in those cases where the player is of high priority or not.

The present approach apparently does not work - and the release payments are way to high when we have to get a foreign-based player to play for the Springboks. That could with Meyer's present selections run into millions a year to get players released to play locally for two months in the middle of the NH season. That is one issue that cut badly into SARU funding and money is being used for short term benefit. That is one of the main reasons why Meyer should reduce the selection of foreign-based players to the minimum and he should not select replaceable players from overseas purely because they may be minimally better than local players.

As I said previously - at present the majority of Meyer's foreign-based players can be replaced by competent local players without disruption of the Springbok team. At present it would appear that with rare exceptions - any ex-Bulls player with a foreign contract received priority over any player in SA - especially if they do not have had a Bulls connection.

The whole thing is entirely wrong. I think there should be a really pressing need to select a foreign-based player and each case must be reviewed by a SARU review committee and such selections should only take place after a due diligence had been done. With rare exceptions - Meyer's present selections will not meet that criteria.

The present system is wicked and destructive as well. White is right about that one.


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 532
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 14:55:06

 Agree that most of the foreing players we can do without, but if you look at the current squad, most of those 'foreign' players only signed contracts this year and most of them played super rugby until a month ago. In Meyers mind he thought he had most of the guys until the end of the year. Now he lost half of his team. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12891
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 16:10:30
Kingcorn

Do not agree entirely. There are now 9 foreign based players - 4 of whom had long term contracts overseas - namely Du Preez, Louw, Pienaar and the atrocious Steenkamp - who cannot make the starting line-up of Toulouse.

Habana, Steyn, Vermaak, Kruger and Kirchner signed the contracts a couple of months ago and Meyer knew about it from the word go. At least 3 of the five players mentioned are bog ordinary and I do think even Steyn could be replaced.

The problem is Meyer's undying love for Bulls players. Seven of the nine players were connected to the Bulls during their playing years in SA - why that large percentage? If we look at all of Meyer's squads you will find also a clear preference for Bulls players. Last year in fact used 14 Bulls players in his match day squads, most of them repeatedly. That meant that virtually the whole Bulls team in fact played for the Springboks at one stage or another during 2012. That makes one wonder - what is going on here? Unfortunately for Meyer 5 of his regulars signed foreign contracts since then - and he refused to let go of even one of them after the contracts in fact commenced.

I think this mess needs to be sorted out quickly - and the powers of Meyer to select at random foreign-based players should be reduced and only exceptional players considered.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 16:46:17

could not agree more mike but it seems like in this instance the tail wags the dog and meyer is obsessed with having the best on the park irespective of where that player is based. his selection policys has created this mess. i promise you this wont be the last that we see something like this. really sad to see that SARU needs to bend over for a french club.

 

steyn vermaak kirchner should not even be in the squad let alone in the team but once again we are being forced into this situation. louw's loyality is also in question after being offered a contract back home he basicly middle fingered saru and said he wants to stay at bath seeing that meyer is buttering his bread on both sides so why much he come back in any case.

 

SARU NEEDS TO CATCH WAKEUP BAN ALL OVERSEAS BASED PLAYERS


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3684
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 22:24:30

The French must get lost, especially the owner of Toulon. 

About a year ago the owner of Toulon said publicly that Bakkies Botha would not be released for international duty, then the IRB intervened because national duty takes priority over club games.

 

Agreed on banning most of the overseas players though- ones that we can easily replace.

Why is Kirchner in the squad, if he is not even 2nd choice? 

Lambie is on the bench for Fullback. 

Vermaak is good but can easily be covered.

 

 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5836
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 23:06:11

a bit of perspective please my brus, when u read the articles on the matter like the one in the link below,,,

www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/springboks/habana-gets-early-toulon-call-up-1.1567511


u will see that boudejellal dosent want to take habana away from the Boks, he only wants habana to play in the week that the Boks are not playing and as he mentioned he will ask for permission first, meaning hes aware that he might not get him as per the original agreement.

i also think that anyone here who is all for selecting players based overseas dosent have a leg to stand on when complaining about toulons request, though ive notcied u dont have a leg to stand on in most of ur whinging, but that dosent deter the masses, LMAO, :oD

i also dont know how this equates in the french not having any pride for themselves, its a professional world and if hypothetically speaking habana was to say i will play for toulon over the Boks, how is that toulons fault??? at the end of the day, its habanas choice.
and come on beeno1 aka storminged, remids u of the bulls and the sharks??? hello pot, brother beeno is calling u black.

i like the idea of a transfer window, but not mikeys idea of running it through SARU first. SARU have proved very incompetent and ive got no doubt they will do everything within their power to taint any potnetial deals,e specially where top priority players are involved, its best that neogtiations be left what they are, but within a transfer window of sorts.
my spider senses are telling me that within the next 5 years, the transfer window will be in full effect.

@sharkbok,
for some reason, the RC/4nats falls in a timeframe where players dont have to be released fo international duties, the pumas got a special dispensation from the IRB to allow their union to get priority, as the bulk of their players were in the NH.

and thats the first i heard about the IRB intervening with bakkies, any links on this matter would be appreciated.

"Agreed on banning most of the overseas players though- ones that we can easily replace."
NZ have something similar, they give their top players sabaticals, where they can go make some extra cash overseas or in McCaws and carters case just take a break,all the while they are still signed up with the NZRU, something for SARU to look at.


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 532
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 23:26:50

 Very good point, mike.

meyer selected way to many bulls. Even his coaching staff are from the bulls. I would'nt have mind if the bulls was a championship team, but they showed this year that they simply don't have the hunger. They basically through away the semis. 

On the Toulon bos, why even put the request in, it disrupts the team. This guy has loads of players that can do the job, and its not even a top team. 

On the ordinary players, Steyn was on his way out last year and both Lambie and Goosen was hot on his heals, he improved his game this year and Lambie whent backwards, thanks to Meyer telling him to become a robot like Steyn. But maybe he is seeing the light. Not sure how long he will play with Willie before starting with Kirchner 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5836
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 23:31:38

and just look at this possible toulon team,,,

1 mike sheridan, 2 sebastian bruno, 3 carl hayman, 4 bakkies botha, 5 ali williams, 6 chris masoe, 7 juan lobbe, 8 joe van niekerk, 9 freddy michilak, 10 johnny wilknson, 11 bryana habana, 12 matt giteau, 13 matheiw basterdau, 14 david smith, 15 drew mitchell
16 jean orioli, 17 artin castrogiovanni, 18 levan chilachava, 19 jocelino suta, 20 dannie rossouw, 21 sebastian borde, 22 yoan huget, 23 rudi wulf

some serious star power right here, IMO that toulon team would easily beat most teams in the spXV with only the chiefs, crusaders, brumbies, stormers the only teams IMO able to compete against them both at home or away.
makes u think that maybe a one off two game series between the spXv champs and the heinken cup champs should be played every year with all respective unions to find a way to make it work.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3246
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 23:33:28
Sasu, I am not sure I fully understand everything you were trying to say, but I agree in principle. As far as the French players not being available for the RC, it is because the RC is not a IRB competition and it does not fall within the international window. That is why the French clubs are well within their rights to retain the players. As for Habana, they are correct in asking for his release, if possible. They cannot just claim him. As far as I know, his contract with the Stormers/WP has not actually run out yet. The same with the likes of Morne Steyn whose contract with the Bulls only runs out at the end of October. In his case, I think an early release has been begotiated with the Bulls.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3684
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 23, 2013, 23:55:50

 Ceradyne why is the RC not part of the IRB, I assume that the 6 nations is?

 

Is the IRB run by the Northern Hemishpere only?


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5836
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 00:06:06

the international rule should be simple, if a country wants a player, the club has to release them period.

even with the RC/4nats not being an IRB competiton, it should be still fall under that rule, i smell something fishy, and its not hakwa sans dinner, o_O


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3246
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 00:19:49
Nothing fishy. There are two international windows. During Jun/Jul and Nov/Dec. In those times the National Sides are in charge and the rest of the time, the guys who are paying their salaries, i.e. the clubs/unions/franchises are in charge. Easy as pie. You would have the same situation if a European player was playing in the SH and one of the 6N sides wanted a player released for the 6N which is also not an IRB competition and takes place outside of the international window.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12891
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 13:22:54
Ceradyne

What has your argument to do with the release of players for test duties? The Reguulations of the IRB are clear and nowhere do they differentitate between so-called window period tests and other tests. The following regullations apply:-

REGULATION 9. AVAILABILITY OF PLAYERS Preamble (A) High quality international Rugby is in the best interests of the sport at all levels. It promotes the sport and encourages new participants and support for the sport around the world and at all levels. International Rugby is a major public interest and it is in the best interests of the public that the best teams and Players represent their Unions. The retention of high quality international Rugby benefits Players because it fulfils their aspirations to play at the highest level of the sport. The selection of the best Players for international Rugby also represents the fairest selection system as it is based on playing merit. Rugby Bodies and Clubs benefit if Players play international Rugby as it improves the quality and experience of Players, increases their value and enhances commercial returns in respect of merchandising, broadcast, sponsorship and gates thereby contributing to the interests of the Rugby Body or Club that Player represents. The development of the sport is enhanced and furthered as a result of the generation of funds from international Rugby for reinvestment in the sport. (B) A Union must therefore be able to select and have available the Players it requires for International Matches and to build and develop team strategies in National Squad sessions in order to ensure that the quality and integrity of international Rugby is maintained. The future development and extension of the sport at all levels and throughout the world would be threatened if a Union was not able to select and have available the Players it requires. (C) The IRB and Unions recognise that the Right to Release for Matches should be exercised reasonably and with due regard to the proper interests of the welfare of Players and other relevant entities who may be affected. This Regulation 9 reflects this balance, accommodates the difference in arrangements and sport structure from Union to Union and respects the position of Rugby Bodies and Clubs whilst recognising the fundamental role that international Rugby plays in the development of the sport worldwide. The Regulation has also been prepared on the basis that in light of the nature and physicality of the Game Players should have appropriate rest, recuperation and recovery opportunities so that when they participate in the Game they are able to do so at their best."

Do you find anything in the Regulations that justify the Clubs to refuse to release players? Maybe is a player is injured or for such reasons - they can require that players not be released - but there need to be reasons for non-release that can be in line with the c0ontext of the regulations.

I cannot see how any Club can really refuse the release of a player on the basis of IRB test windows - where did you find that bit of disinformation abut window periods and IRB recognized tests?


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3246
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 13:56:26

I am about to watch the qualifying session for the Belgium Grand Prix and then there is an afternoon of rugby and football, hopefully some cricket and some football as well. I will have a look at all the regulations and reply, once I have done that. From the piece above, I need to point out that there is also nothing hard and fast saying that clubs have no right to refuse the release of players either.

 

 

"The IRB and Unions recognise that the Right to Release for Matches should be exercised reasonably and with due regard to the proper interests of the welfare of Players and other relevant entities who may be affected. This Regulation 9 reflects this balance, accommodates the difference in arrangements and sport structure from Union to Union and respects the position of Rugby Bodies and Clubs whilst recognising the fundamental role that international Rugby plays in the development of the sport worldwide. "

 

 

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12891
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 14:37:07
Ceradyne

Bull[removed] - you cannot read a third condition that basically clarifies to some extent the need for reasonableness in dealing with the issue. That cannot be used unless the usage is reasonable and in the interest of the player, nowhere does it state in the interest of the Club - leaving very little scope for refusal by clubs.

Furthermore - where does it specify only being applicable to the June and November tests as spouted by you above? Nowhere - so normal crap by a member with very little of substance to ever write about - normal to his usual style.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3246
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 14:51:33

Ou Maaik, just yesterday you posted something interest8ing to Moz, which Moz predicted was not going to last. He was obviously correct.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3246
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 16:54:24

OK Ou Maaik, the qualifying session is finished and I had a quick look. Ince again, it appearesas though you only read and take note of the pieces that you like.

 

This from the very same Regulation 9 that you have quoted (The same can also be found in an IRB Press release):

When the Right to Release applies
9.5 The Right to Release for Matches shall apply to Designated Release Events, Global Release Periods, Hemisphere Release Periods and fromJune 1, 2012 to the Four Nations Release Period.
9.6 Designated Release Events
The Right to Release for Matches applies to the Designated Release
Events set out below whenever such Designated Release Events are held.
All Players selected to participate in Designated Release Events shall be
released.
(a) Union Designated Release Events:
(i) The quadrennial Rugby World Cup Tournament and qualification Matches.
(ii) The quadrennial Rugby World Cup Sevens event.
(iii) An Olympic Sevens Rugby event and qualification Matches.
(b) Combined Teams Designated Release Events:
(i) The quadrennial British and Irish Lions Tour is a Designated Event and all Players selected to participate shall be released. The Release Period shall ordinarily 1 commence on 1 June and ordinarily conclude on the 2nd weekend of July in the relevant year.
(ii) The quadrennial Tour of the Combined Team of the Pacific Islands Unions (Fiji, Samoa and Tonga) is a Designated Event and all Players selected to participate shall be released. The Tour will take place in the November window in the relevant year.
 
9.7 Global Release Periods
There are two Global Release Periods.
(a) The June window
The Right to Release for Matches shall apply to each of the senior
National Representative Team, the next senior National Representative
Team and the Under 20 National Representative Team of a Union in respect of all International Matches, International Tours and International Tournaments played over a period of three weekends in June each year, save in a Rugby World Cup year, during which year the June window shall not operate in respect of Unions that qualified for the Rugby World Cup. Unless Council approves otherwise the three weekends in June shall be the second, third and fourth weekends.
(b) The November window
The Right to Release for Matches shall apply to each of the senior National Representative Team, the next senior National Representative Team and the Under 20 National Representative Team of a Union in respect of all International Matches, International Tours and International Tournaments played over a period of three weekends in November each year, save in a Rugby World Cup year, during which year the November window shall not operate in respect of Unions that qualified for the Rugby World Cup. Unless Council approves otherwise the three weekends in November shall be the second, third and fourth weekends.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3684
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 17:52:49

 

Boks to release Habana



 

Bryan Habana will turn out for Toulon against Grenoble next weekend according to the club's owner, Mourad Boudjellal.

The South African Rugby Union confirmed earlier in the week that they had received a request from Toulon to release Habana for action on a weekend on which the Springboks do not have a fixture.

SARU refused to release their decision on the matter, stating that they would only do so after Saturday night's test against Argentina. However, Boudjellal has not waited so long.

"Bryan will play at Grenoble and it'll be a great gift for the Grenoble treasurer," Boudjellal said. "Bryan is paid by the club, it's normal that he comes just like all the staff if he is asked."


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3246
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 19:30:30
Looks like Mike is tired of this thread.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12891
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 19:56:19
Cerafyne

When you made your original posting - you left out the following:-

"When the Right to Release applies

9.5 The Right to Release for Matches shall apply to Designated Release Events, Global Release Periods, Hemisphere Release Periods and fromJune 1, 2012 to the Four Nations Release Period."

That would apply to all the Four Nations Tournaments to follow as well - so your original argument that the release issue is not applicable to the Championship was never the case.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11952
RE: Toulon wants Habana to start at the end of the month
August 24, 2013, 20:02:09

 Nice one Mike.

I have to agree that clubs should never have preference on a player needing to play for his country.

I ca' t fathom why mucncher thinks if we only select home based players this would stop the exodus

 


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