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5539 Topic: Bok Front Row
Nongaklong

Status: Ref
Posts: 8
Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 12:52:59

I cant understand that their is no mention about Malherbe and Kitschoff being good enough for the springboks, strauss is also in the team on borrowed time cause bismark is almost back to his best and when liebenberg recovers i dont see how strauss could make the springbok sqaud 


Ihi

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 201
RE: Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 13:07:55

dont get me wrong i think bismarck is a awesome player but strauss is the best bok hooker i have ever seen. bissie seems to play his best rugby as an impact player so i think coming off the bench is better for him. strauss is so calm under pressure and everything he does is really accurate he brings so much more to the table it kind of rounds off a very hard edge in the pack. i think i said it before but ill say again anyway strauss is alot like keith woods to me and he was the best hooker of the pro era. not bad to have both on the squad though but i dont think meyer will drop strauss.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 13:32:00
Kitshoff has had a great year, he has come of age in the scrums. He completely dominated Werner Kruger on the weekend. Kitshoff has Bok written all over him, but he has some serious challengers in Nkanyane and Coenie, if Coenie plays 1.

Beast is the in[removed]bent and has many years left in him.

At 3 Malherbe cemented his status as a potential Bok 3 of the future after this years S15 performances. Coenie is work in progress at 3, Jannie is reaching the end and we have the impressive Marcel v/d Merwe back from injury.

We are sorted at prop with others like Frik Kirsten, Mellett and Herbst to add to the equation.

At hooker its a tussle between Bismark and Strauss to start, my choice would be Bismark. Chiliboy has been in great form and Cooper looks a good prospect as does Callie Visagie.


Ihi

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 201
RE: Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 13:41:06

The bok props are very poor scrummagers and schooling kruger is not saying much at all. coenie and kits have potential but again its outside the scrum. thats a big prolem. weak scrums cost you guys two tests last year in the championship. aussies will expose your fattys again :)


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 13:55:07
Ihi you again are speaking a load of crap


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 14:35:39
Ihi

With respect - the weakest scrumming I have seen for years was in the recent Lions series. The Aussie scrumming was pathetic- especially in the third test. I do not think any team SA field would crumble like the Wallabies did - so I do believe you are indeed living in dreamland.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1921
RE: Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 15:18:12

 

Maybe he should change his name from Ihi to Ahaaahahahaaaa!!!


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 16:20:57
There is some truth to what Ihi is saying. Our props are not great scrummagers.....there isn't one dominant scrummager in the group of Jannie, the Beast, Kitshoff, Malherbe, Coenie, Adriaanze or Nackers. We say the worst scrumming performance in recent memory is Oz against the Lions.......but our props have never dominated Alexander and many have failed against Robinson. In the recent tests we hardly out scrummed our opponents and Casrtogiovanni put our scrum to the sword when he came on.

-

We need to find a dominating loosehead and a rock solid tighthead. The best prospects are probably Kitshoff, who in recent games has shown an inclination to really dominate...albeit against weak opposition....and Malherbe who looks technically sound. But they have to prove it. In the meantime Jannie and the Beast do a fine job.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Bok Front Row
July 18, 2013, 22:26:09

Moz there are no dominating looseheads or tightheads in any of the teams. Props suffer ups and downs and much of that has nothing to do with the individual and plenty to do with the scrum as a whole, the refs interpretation which is so often wrong.

 

Our young prop prospects are better than what I have seen with other countries. Adam Jones did a good job at 3 for the Lions but has hardly been known as a dominating tighthead for Wales over the years. 

Franks has been good for the AB's at 3, but even he has struggled at times. They dont have a loosehead worth anything. Oz props are pretty average. I rate Corbeserio at loosehead for England, but thats where it ends.

There are no dominating props out there - the nature of the game and the laws of the scrum and their different interpretations have negated dominating props.........much like we see centres struggling to impose themselves at test level given the nature of the modern game, we see the same with props.

Hell you get no more a physical imposing figure than Etzebeth, but modern players are up to the task of containing physical brutes like him - he is an advantage in a side, but hardly has it his own way.

 

 

 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3783
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 00:33:11
The Northern Hemisphere are much better scrummagers than the Southern Hemishpere- mostly due to playing on wet fields that require more scrummagers than mobile props.

Argentina are the best scrummagers in the Southern Hemishpere followed by the All Blacks, then South Africa and last is Australia.

It can get very embarrassing being from the Southern Hemishpere watch the Wallabies get worked by the Poms.

I dont understand why the Boks are by by far the best at the rolling maul, but average at Scrums.

When our driving maul looks its best, it takes the form of a scrum.

From what I understand, in the olden days the Boks were top scrummagers.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3783
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 00:36:44
A girl- "there are no dominating looseheads or tightheads in any of the teams"

Did you watch the B&I Lions in the 3rd test against Australia, or many of the tests of England vs Australia? I thought Australia were playing their cheerleaders in the front row in the most recent test vs the Lions


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 00:47:12
Sharkbok, you sound like a rugby supporter who is out of touch with reality. Argentina used to be great scrummagers, that has not been the case for the past 3 or 4 years.

The Lions scrum dominated the 3rd test, they were poor in the 2nd. As I said Adam Jones has hardly been renowned as a dominating tighthead for Wales, he has been solid.

The notion that NH are better scrummagers than SH is also untrue. When last did a Scottish, French, Welsh, Irish or English pack dominate an AB or Bok pack?


Spooony

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 718
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 02:25:59

Our props are [removed]. One reason is the that we use one to fill a goverment quota and the other to give us more mobility. Look at the once might Blue Bulls pack. The once power of SA rugby and our scrum. Being outscrummed by everyone. 

 

@A girl. November last year did the English dominate the AB pack. 


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 507
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 02:37:18
I am surprised Beeno hasn't chimed in about size mattering, this is perfect for his wee Blacks forward pack [removed]ysis. Maybe less emphasis on the front row is precisely about mobility. It in effect gives you 3 extra roaming forwards who can hit the rucks and mauls almost as quick as the loosies and other tight five and also carry the ball forward over the advantage line. Maybe the importance of the scrum as an attacking platform if not close to the try line is declining.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 02:51:55
The problem is Poly, if your scrum is really falling apart like OZ in the third Lions test.....you effectively just leak penalties. As a consequence you keep the opponents score ticking over and you lose the advantage on opponents mistakes when on attack. The notion of a mobile prop is fine in as far as it goes....but he has to be competent at scrum time.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3783
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 03:05:18

If a scrum becomes the shambles that Australian became in the 3rd test, the Lions could knock the ball on purpose and just use the scrums the milk penalties on opposition ball. 

 

 


Spooony

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 718
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 04:58:14

@Polyboy

 

TRC 2012

New Zealand’s approach to, and success in, open play was enhanced by a successful set piece:
· The scrum proved to be an effective possession source of tries
· Two tight heads were won – the other three teams won none
· More lineout steals were won than any other team
· Fewer lineout steals were conceded than any other team

 

 South Africa and Argentina did not score a single try from scrum possession

50% of tries originated from lineout possession

South Africa had the least successful kick at goal rate

The team with the least possession won the majority of matches

South Africa failed to recover a single restart, losing all 27 short restarts. The other three teams
recovered total of 29

New Zealand contested more lineouts than any other team, and won the most steals
· Penalties at the scrum went 5:1 in favour of the team putting in the ball. Scrum free kicks were 1:1
· New Zealand tapped only three penalties/free kicks in six matches. The other three teams tapped a
total of 25

Of the seven Championship tries scored from scrum possession, New Zealand scored five

 

Tri NAtions 2009

SOUTH AFRICA
Over recent years, the South African senior team has developed a clearly identified but
highly effective and successful playing strategy. It involves, in broad terms, exerting
territorial pressure on its opponents through tactical kicking combined with intense
physical pressure while minimising risk and effectively converting opponents errors into
points - Possession is not a priority.
This means that an [removed]ysis of South Africa’s matches invariably fall into a clearly
identifiable profile
¨ they obtain less possession than their opponents.
¨ as a result, they make fewer rucks
¨ and make fewer passes than their opponents
¨ but make more kicks because of the importance attached to territorial advantage
This approach is then enhanced by a highly competent scrum and a hugely successful
lineout.

 

Their lineout figures were hugely impressive
¨

their success rate was 88% compared with 78% and 74% for the other 2 countries
they had a success rate of 38% on their opposition throw – an exceptionally high figure that contrasted with the 10% and 15% of their opponents
their lineout was stolen only 6 times compared with Australia’s 16 and New Zealand’s 14
¨ they stole their opponents lineout 24 times. Australia and New Zealand managed just 6 each.
¨

this superiority was recognised by the other two teams who only challenged the South Africa lineout on 44% of occasions while Australia’s was challenged on 65% of
occasions and New Zealand’s on 58%. conversely,

South Africa challenged their opponent’s lineout on 64% of occasions compared with Australia’s and New Zealand’s 49% and 56% respectively

 

The ability to dominate the lineout was one of the core elements of a playing formula that
is currently producing success for South Africa. What is now going to be of interest is to
see how successful South Africa will be in maintaining such an approach, how effective
other teams will be in challenging such an approach and whether certain teams will look
to emulating the South African strategy in their search for success.
The other area of interest lies in seeing whether the shape of the game will change. Will
the constricted pattern of play evinced in Tri Nations 2007 and 2009, for example, be
maintained or will the organic nature of the game produce a platform upon which tries and
not penalty goals become the most important imperative as experienced in the Tri Nations
ELV experiment of 2008.

So NZ aew just doing what SA did so well. That is having a solid set piece to attack from.

As you can see our scrum and line outs were pathetic and hence the reason we did so badly. Nothing special


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 05:56:49
The situation with regard to props are really to be seen in the context of Super Rugby as well. I have not seen in Super Rugby this year anything of substance in the New Zealand set-up. Their key props are the Franks brothers, Crocket and Wood[removed]. Their one distinctive quality is that they rained penalties all the time - especially Crocket and Ben Franks. There is a variety of problems with their scrumming through Walks arounds, inward scrumming, not binding and pressing on the ground.

Some of the New Zealand franchises are worse than others - the Blues is bad and the Hurricanes equally so. The Highlanders was slightly better than those two and the reason why the Crusaders beat the Chiefs with ease was lack of forward performance.

In the case of Australia, the situation is not satisfactory as well. Their top props are Robertson, Alexander, Slipper and Holmes. Three of the above were in the recent Lions test and they were totally outplayed by the Lions. In Super 15 they were constantly outscrummed by opposing teams as well. So they are not the strongest around either.

The franchise with the weakest props in SA is the Bulls - they do not really have a good prop situation. They strugged against the Cheetahs, Sharks and Stormers - even in cases where they won games their scrumming was constantly under pressure. Other than the Crusaders game in Christchurch - the rather poor Bulls props stood up well against all teams from New Zealand and Australia.

The statements made above by Mozart and A girl are not supported by facts on the ground - only by superficial impressions.

Our prop situation however, is far from satisfactory. I think that Jannie du Plessis is past his sell-by date and they must consider Malherbe at tighthead - with Jannie on the bench. That is the weak area really. Insofar as looseheads are concerned - we have Beast, Coenie - a better loose head than tight head - Nyakane and Kitshoff.

In dealing with scrumming - the issue is also the role of the hooker in scrumming. Hookers must of essence also stabilize the scrum and be good in that department of the game as well. We have probably the two best hookers n the world in Strauss and Bismarck - the only players coming near to them is Moore of the Brumbies and Robinson - who plated for the Rebels this year - but is on his way back to New Zealand next year. New Zealand hookers are generally poor and not up to standard..

In scrumming the role of the locks are equally important. That is why Kruger is a no-no at lock. We must go for the stronger locks like Etzebeth and Du Toit - forget about Kruger, and co.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1921
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 08:57:34

 

I was going to say that a dominant scrum does not fall squarely on the front row's shoulders. The tight five are all responsible for this ... with support from the back three.

 

Bakkies was an incredibly strong scrummager while Victor struggled a bit.

 

During their era we hardly ever got a good right shoulder in.

 

The Argentinian scrum dominated for many a year because of everyone partaking.

 

Bottom line is that we win or loose up front and our set piece needs some serious attention. It's an awesome attackng platform and why we blow hot and cold here is beyond me.

 

 

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12189
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 10:12:15

I am still hoping that Pieter De Villiers as an ex french prop will improve Bok scrumming trechnique. France scrum well especially when they pick a decent sized pack.

We have great front row resources and young guys coming of age. We should be able next year to field a formidable pysical AND mobile pack. No wotrries about forwards.

As to hookers start with Bissie in certain conditions and Strauss in other. I am glad Nongaklong mentions Tiaan. A very good all round package of power, physicality and mobility.  These three are the top hookers we have.

Spoony some interesting info there. Where do you get that stuff?

 

 

 


ntanga

Status: Squad member
Posts: 335
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 11:09:47
Great observation Spoony, I personally think our scrums have been very poor since last year. I remember the English commentator marvelling at how the Boks got outscrummed by their boys. He actually said, "maybe its down to fatigue because of their busy Super Rugby fixture". I think Meyer need to balance things out, we do have the talent at the front row position, but how to use them to their full potential is the question Meyer needs to start brain storming about.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12189
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 11:23:59

Agree, we have tended to scrum below our potential due to poor technique. Bit like our backline performance.


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 507
RE: Bok Front Row
July 19, 2013, 13:16:44
@ Spooony thanks for info very detailed and interesting reading,@ Mozart you hit it on the head you can't sacrifice scrum stability for mobility there has to be a balance, probably the one forward who I think had it right was Bismark D. P. solid at scrum time yet in open play almost like a loose forward, Kevin Meleamu in his prime was pretty close to it too.


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