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5528 Topic: Bok centre combination
mozart

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Bok centre combination
July 17, 2013, 15:00:15
You pick....Jean/JJ.....Serfontein/Jean.....Serfontein/JJ ....or Jean/ de Jongh.


Shezza

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Posts: 1177
RE: Bok centre combination
July 17, 2013, 15:10:09

 Serfontein and JJ. Dries Swanepoel to replace JJ in the future.


oimatey

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Posts: 1210
RE: Bok centre combination
July 17, 2013, 15:22:06

At this point has to be Jean / JJ.

 

Serfontein hasn't had sufficient game time to start him in the RC. There is no reason to exclude JDV - his form and leadership are undeniable and necessary. Meyer missed a real oppportunity in the quadrangular to get all three on the paddock at the same time in a Jean / Serfontein / JJ combo.

 


clevermike

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RE: Bok centre combination
July 17, 2013, 15:31:14
Mozart

There are only three centers to be considered from the present Springbok squad - namely De Villirers, Serfontein and JJ. The situation may change in future with Swanepoel, Van Rensburg, De Allende and Du Plessis coming into the picture.

No place for midgets that cannot tackle properly in the squad.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Bok centre combination
July 17, 2013, 16:16:28

 

Robert Ebersohn deserves at least a mention ... surely?

 

The way Jean's been playing of late there's no way he shoukld be left out of the Bok starting 15. He seems more comfortable at 12 than he does at 13. 

 

Having said that ... perhaps we should rather choose the best 13 ... cause we already have 12 sorted.

 

 


Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1177
RE: Bok centre combination
July 17, 2013, 17:22:38

 CC, Jeans been playing superbly but can you leave Serfontein out? 

Ebersohn is decent, just doesn't have what Jan does.


mozart

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RE: Bok centre combination
July 17, 2013, 20:46:30
Serfontein/Jean would be my choice


clevermike

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RE: Bok centre combination
July 17, 2013, 20:53:55
Mozart

It is a rare occurrence - but sometimes I do agree with you and this is a case where I do


Saffex

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Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 00:17:52
Would be one of my easiest Bok selections......12. Serfontein 13. JJ with Frans on the bench

Injuries aside my Bok backline would be:

15. Willie 14.JP 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Habana 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard ........with a bench of v/Zyl / Reinach, Lambie, Taute / Frans


clevermike

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Posts: 12583
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 00:22:47
[removed]

The best-performing SA center at present is De Villiers - how can one seriously leave him out and even mention Francois Steyn - who did not shine in Super 15 and had no game for two months?


canrugby

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 635
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 00:34:49

For the RC it would be Jean/JJ. I really like Serfontein and am a big believer in just playing your young guns, but Jdv has done very well this year, and his leadership is unquestioned. EOYT has to see a lot of JJ/Serfontein.

 

 


Spooony

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 718
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 01:09:57

12. Jean de Villiers

13. Serfontein


mozart

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Posts: 8371
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 02:19:23
Probably right. When JJ was stepped and pushed off by van Aswegen at minute 29.09.........and beaten by de Jongh at minute 53.57 I began to worry about his defence again.


Ihi

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 201
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 12:05:53
I saw a video on youtube with matfield. he talked about sitting down with jean de villiers and some other fellas talking tactics for bok tests. i think jean should be there because he obviously brings alot in prep work for tests and his experience settles thiongs a bit. hes playing a similar sort of role to mortlock in his last couple of years even though he wasnt very good anymore. but you guys need to start grooming a new 12 right now! de jongh needs to be selected because he defends best of all your 13s. at test level you have to consider defence before attack but de jongh is your best 13 there too and also the 13 from the cheetahs (hes defended muych better this year so he could be considered). with willie in the mix you need to do what you can to augment your attack de jongh as to be there or you guys will just collapse like when you got your arses smashed at home by New Zealand.


Nongaklong

Status: Ref
Posts: 8
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 12:45:10

I totaly agree with Ihi jdv and de jong is the best centre combination, also believe le roux is overated as a fullback, aplon currently the best fullback and he has a good boot as well, le roux better off at wing


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 12:59:01

Shezza ... problem is that one shouldn't just replace an in form player like De Villiers just cause there's an awesome talent like Serfontein forcing his way into the mix. Serfontein should take the 12 jersey away from Jean and not be given a freeby.

 

You agree??

 

Yes I do agree regarding Ebersohn. He has had a fantastic season, especially at 12. A far better option if you ask me than De Jongh. Maybe a bench spot for the lad?? He can cover both 12 & 13.

 

I guess the better option is to have both Serfontain and De Villiers in as suggested above. 

 

 


blobbok

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 617
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 13:08:54

Any talk of a current Bok team without their captain Jean is total bollocks. What can be debated though is, who's at 13 ? For me Serfontein, JJ's a bit of a turnstyle .


Saffex

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Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 13:25:36
Oh what complete crap that Jean has been our best centre, our best centre by some distance has been JJ. The talk that he has defensive issues is complete rubbish.

I have watched the Bulls v Stormers game again and its laughable that there were issues with JJ's defence. If anything de Jongh was guilty of missing one on one tackles and Venter had a poor game defensively.

If we stick with Jean at 12, we don't move on, at best he is solid, Serfontein is the future at 12 and JJ is so far ahead of anyone else at 13, his selection for the Boks is an obvious one.


Ihi

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 201
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 13:37:54

Dave i see your very passionate about those players but we just got to accept facts none of the south african centres are playing so well that they siply HAVE to be selected at all costs. jean is old and has weaknesses but he is solid and has leadership and experience which is important right now. its just too bad that no other saffers are putting their hands up for selection you guys just dont have very good centres. its by far the weakest part of south african centres, it has gotten better over the years but its still lightyears away from new zealand and australia. so you guys have to have a solid 12 and a good defender at 13. de jongh is the only proven defender at 13 for the boks and he knows jean well so thats another plus. right now thats the best bet. just got to make the most of what you have not want you want.


Saffex

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Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 13:54:09
Ihi you are speaking crap, there are no good young centres coming through in Oz or NZ.......the best NZ centre is Ranger and he gets wasted on the wing and is now pissing off overseas. Oz don't have any class young centres.

In SA we have Serfontein at 12 who is pure class and in JJ we have the perfect solution at 13. This guy is a better runner than Conrad Smith or Ashley Cooper.

The Bok centre position looks bright and there is plenty of depth in de Allende, Jaco Taute, Pat Howard, Sadie, Ebersohn, de Jongh, Frans Steyn, Whitehead, Jordaan, Tyler Fisher, Dries Swanepoel, Frans Venter, Rohan Janse v/Rensburg Hanekom, JP du Plessis, Jessie and Daniel Kriel and Lindeque


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 14:00:15

Well Ihi ... who does Oz have that's light years away from the Bok center pair of Serfontein and Jean?

 

Barnes? ... Faingaa? ... Lealifano? ... Ashley Cooper .... ?? McCabe??

 

Puhlease!!!! I somehow do not find myself shaking in my boots over those chumps!!

 

Take the All Blacks ... Nonu, Smith and who else ... ???

 

Ranger is gone ... no SBW ... please tell me ... which All Black center is light years away from our boys??

 

 


Saffex

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RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 14:37:57
CC for once we are on the same page


clevermike

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RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 14:45:43
Ihi

I suppose you are an Australian. I see you are supporting De Jongh at 13 - because that would even out the center position insofar as the opposition is concerned. Only a few like the besotted Mozart and people who want to weaken the Springboks would want him in that position. He really is a defensive liability and there are at least 6 other 13's in SA than is better than him in attacking play. I would not have him in Super 15 - because he really is harmless and detrimental to the team he plays for.


Buzz

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 14:54:08

I think a formidibal centre pairing for NZ would be

12 - Bundee Aki and 13- Tim Nanai-Williams

 

DEADLY


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 14:59:32

Haaahahaaa ... yes it seems we are Dave!!!

 

It's easy enough ... Ihi is talking crap.

 

Either that or you've come to your senses.  :-)


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 15:01:57
Buzz

I like Bundee Aki myself - am a participant in fantasy competitions and he is a regular in my teams. I rhink that Nonu is a yo-yo player - sometimes good, much more often not so. Conrad Smith is a defensive liability and has not shown much in Super 15 this year. The best New Zealand 13 is Ranger - but he is off to France and thus not available. Williams is also not a regular for the Chiefs and his injury problems count against him as well.

For the rest their centers are sub-par


Buzz

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 15:03:28

it would be interesting to see on current form if Jan and JJ could beat Bundee and Tim.


Buzz

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 15:06:11

Mike , Tim when fit has unbelievable pace and his centre of gravity makes him pretty hard to bring down. I understand he hasnt been consistant but on the Day he can run circles round most. Bundee has superb vision.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 15:13:28

 

The All Blacks are due to change personel soon.

 

Starting from their hooker to their openside flanker right through to their center pair.

 

Tim is very illusive. Great attacker ... but a liability defensively. He struggles to hold onto a starting spot at the Chiefs.

 

I do not consider Aki as an All Black ... not quite yet in any case.

 

 


Buzz

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 15:28:10

CleanCut , i would say that Tims weight may count against him and he doesnt back himself as a defensive unit. But its his attacking ability that warms me. Strangely enough , I am actually at a loss for names that stand out at 13 in NZ..Freuan maybe.


mozart

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Posts: 8371
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 15:30:34
Dave you must have missed these.

-

Minute 15.25 De Jongh with no space carries JJ back 5 metres

-

Minute 29.09....van Aswegen steps JJ and bumps off the tackle.

-

Minute 26.55 De Jongh gets hit by JJ 3 metres outside the 22, carries to 2 metres inside the 22 De Jongh making 5 metres after the JJ tackle was a regular feature.

-

34.19 Jean beats Venter on the outside drift, but JJ is way too far back leaving space for Jean to round Venter and then step inside the JJ tackle.

-

51.30 De Jongh slips partially past JJ but Venter joins to stop him. Two men needed.

-

53.19 De Jongh clashes with JJ 10 metres outside the 22....beats him on the outside.....gets slowed by another Bools player and JJ finally brings him down 5 metres inside the 22.

-

None of these breaks and half breaks led to much, but there was usually a second tackler involved. The fact is JJ never made one clean dead stop on de Jongh all game. Against a really good centre who can offload that could be dangerous. Fortunately for us NZ and Oz are really pretty weak at centre right now. But that wont always be the case and it's why I favour Serfontein over JJ.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1824
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 15:41:49

 

Buzz, I'm sure I read somewhere that Freuan has heart issues. Not sure how serious it is.

 

A powerful man ... had his best season when the magic of SBW was on his inside. Not much of creator. More of a crashball runner. He needs someone to put him into the gap.

 

I wonder if we'll see him next season?

 

Amazing how the boys down under have such a lot of issues with their organs. 

 

Must be their diet. Can't figure it!!

 

 

 

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 15:48:54
Mozart

I can hardly believe what you wrote and want to watch those De Jongh movements you describe - De Jongh has never ever tackled a player backwards and those movements must be a first for him too - he gets stopped dead in his tracks and flown around like a rag doll most times.

Is the game on video and where can I find it, please.


Saffex

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Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 22:40:59

Moz, I'll check all those takes and counter them as I know JJ had a solid game and de Jongh was as average as ever. I'll get back to you on those passages of play.

 

Serfontein last week, missed more tackles than JJ has in any match. But I know Serfontein has no real issue with his defence, in fact he is a strong defender, just like I know JJ is. Serfontein will never make the impression JJ does at 13 and that is purely down to JJ's speed and quick feet. Serfontein would be as ineffective as Jean was at 13. Nope Jean has to go, he needs to go while he is still a solid option.

 

Serfontein is better than Jean right now and the future at 12. Serfontein would make a solid 13, but why bother when JJ has made the impression he has made at 13 this year. Mark my words, with JJ's skill at 13, he is going to make the position his own and will end up a far better player than the likes of Joubert and Fourie. You cannot buy that pace and step at 13......JJ is the ideal modern day 13.

 

The Boks have the potential to really step it up in the backs if they invest in Goosen, Serfontein and JJ as their focal attackers, with the likes of Habana, JP and Willie as their finishers. No international side has that kind of potentila coming through at 10, 12 & 13


Spooony

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 718
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 22:57:21

Speed got nothing to do with 13. Unless you are still stuck in the 90'a. Jacque Fourie was he quick or was a strong ball carrier?

Conrad SMith quick or is he a strong ball carrier?

Fofana? Strong ball carrier

 

Lets see what happened to converted players who was quick where many thought they would make good centres. Remember Christian CUllen? Turned out well didn't it?

 

Being quick in the centres going to help you not much unless you intercept. You get the ball with defenders in your face and basically not much space against a drifting defense. You can't go around them.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 23:07:09
Spoon you dont know your arse from your elbow, that is clear. Speed has everything to do with a good 13 and that is why JJ has made the impression he has this year. He has that and power, not to mention a great step.

You need creativity, flair and strength at 12 to create for your 13 who needs speed and strength to beat his man on the outside and feed his wing.

Fourie was an opportunist, hardly a purest at 13. Conrad Smith is certainly not about power - he is all about brains, great support runner who runs great angles.

Fofana is a 12 you twit who has plenty of pace given he spent plenty of time on the wing


Buzz

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 23:31:54

Sorry [removed], you said serfontein missed a lot of tackles last week. He didnt play last week that was venter.


Saffex

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Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 23:43:06
Buzz the week before


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3602
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 23:54:45
I thought Venter had a relatively poor game at 12. I think I saw him put in a really good pass and create an overlap towards the end.

He seemed pretty [removed]bersome for a young centre. Maybe just back from injury so not totally fit.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 18, 2013, 23:55:40

Ok Moz here goes......this is easier than I thought it would be:

 

Minute 15.25 - had nothing to do with JJ, de Jongh is missed by Venter. JJ was merely a nearby spectator. Not  JJ miss at all

 

Minute 26.55 - JJ smashes de Jongh, good hit 

 

Minute 29.09 - v/Aswegen steps inside JJ who is covering the outside, the step takes JJ off balance and he ends up on his knees - had nothing to do with being pushed off. Good step by v/A in traffic which does not amount to much. It was not a one on one miss by JJ, he was covering the outside and got stepped.

 

Minute 34.19 - has nothing to do with JJ, Jean beats his opposite number on the outside, JJ is marking his man on the outside as he should be, he dives to try stop Jean as a desperate measure - no fault of his at all, he would have relied on Venter tackling Jean. JJ cant mark two players.

 

Minute 51.30 - again has nothing to do with JJ, Venter misses de Jongh, JJ comes to assist

 

Minute 53.19 - de Jongh steps JJ partially but JJ catches him with ease within metres.

 

The only half misses by JJ were against v/Aswegen in minute 29 and de Jongh in minute 53. For the rest JJ's defence was spot on or he was not the culprit.

 

JJ had a solid game defensively and saw little ball given the Bulls never turned up for that game.

 

I have no issue with JJ's defence at all and its his attacking attributes that sets him apart


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8371
RE: Bok centre combination
July 19, 2013, 01:09:00
Dave, just to take three incidents:

-

At minute 15.25 De Jongh runs through the gap between Venter (who takes him low) and JJ ( who takes him high). But de Jongh still powers through them and to ground, leading to quick ball and , presto, the Habana try.

_

At minute 26.55 De Jongh gets the ball midway between half and quarter, gets hit by JJ head on 5 metres from the 22, but powers over the 22 eventually stopped by JJ and Potgieter combineds.

-

At minute 53.57 De Jongh has a bit of space, fakes JJ on the inside and takes him on the outside. NDungane manages to slow him up by pulling his jesrsey and Jj recovers as he is slowed down and makes the tackle.

-

That's how I see it....3 one on one tackle situations, in each of which JJ had help, in none of which he made a clean stop.


Spooony

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 718
RE: Bok centre combination
July 19, 2013, 02:19:30

@[removed]

 


I'd like to see things from your point of view but I can't seem to get my head that far up my ass.

Name me one modern day center who relies more on speed than his ball carrying ability?  New Zealand use their blindside and Conrad Smith as the second and third carriers because they are effective at producing quality front foot ball. Strong ball carriers. 

 

NZ us the centers to attack the opposition fly half with a power centre (Ma’a Nonu).
Nonu will have support from the blindside winger (Cory Jane).
 

He can receive the ball before the line or Nonu may offload to him through the line. If Nonu takes the tackle, Jane will act as a cleaner at the ruck.

 

Jacque Fourie wasn't the quickest but he had power. Serfontein  power. Jamie Roberts. Power. Brain O Driscoll. Power. Tuilagi Power. Fofana Power.  Sterling Mortlock - Power. Daniel Herbert Power. Kahui Power. Rougerie Power

 

So dream on mate


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 19, 2013, 13:13:51
Spoon I know you are thick but try catch a wake up. For a start the likes of Fourie, Smith, O'Driscoll, Ranger. Ashley-Cooper etc have plenty of pace - many of them have played on the wing.

Now my point is that JJ adds some clout to our Bok backline at 13 as he has added pace, look no further than the tries he has scored this year in the tests or where he has created space out wide through pace.

I am not saying he is about pace only, he has great feet and is a physical lad.......get it?


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 19, 2013, 13:22:42
Sorry Moz that is not how it happened.

At minute 15.25, JJ had very little involvement in the miss on de Jongh. The culprit was Venter with a straight miss. JJ would have expected Venter to make the one on one tackle. JJ hardly gets a hand on de Jongh.....it was not his tackle.

At minute 26.55 JJ smashes de Jongh and stops him in his tracks, I see no powering forward by de Jongh at all. It was a great hit by JJ.

Yep at minute 53......de Jongh steps JJ partially but JJ reals him in with ease as de Jongh lost his balance with the step.

Only one of those was a miss by JJ as was his miss on v/Aswegen.......both times he was stepped.......that's rugby for you. For the rest JJ was not the culprit or had very little involvement in the tackle.

JJ missed 2 tackles on the day. de Jongh defensively was equally guilty.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Bok centre combination
July 19, 2013, 13:23:15
[removed]

I aked Mozart if he nows a link to internet that I can use to look at his allegations bout the issue - but he is so besotted with De Jongh that he never answered. I tend to believe your version - but would like to have a look at the game if possible


Saffex

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Posts: 8934
RE: Bok centre combination
July 19, 2013, 13:41:22
I don't know Mike, many of the games can be found on Youtube. I have the game on my Sky box!!


mozart

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Posts: 8371
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 00:41:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLjoxWJFhfM

-

De Jongh outplayed JJ....end of story.


Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1177
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 00:59:11

 Even if you're right Moz, who's made the bigger impression for the Boks? JJ has, De Jong well lets just point to the EOYT last year and in particular the England test!


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8371
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 03:24:57
I'm not arguing for de Jongh over JJ, I'm simply using de Jongh to measure JJ's play. So what do we really know at this point? JJ is being widely promoted based on his S15 performance and the June tests. But the S15 performance was ordinary until Serfontein arrived and ordinary last Saturday when Serfontein was absent. And the June test performance was in tests against teams we were clearly better than and beat easily.

-

So what do we really know? JJ is a very fast, strong runner, with a good step....and he is hard to bring down. All of which makes him a great finisher. If he was a wing that might be enough....but at 13 he also needs to create for himself and others. And do that in very limited space, which is the norm in test rugby. He has yet to have the chance to show that, because what he did in June, was done with lots of space and quick ball.

-

So on the attacking front he has had a good start, but hasn't really shown us he can do his thing against the close marking he will get in an Oz/NZ test.

-

Then there is the matter of defence. If you are sceptical go to the time points I marked in the Stormers game and ask yourself what would have happened with those de Jongh half breaks....if it was a NZ centre with NZ backing.

-

To be honest I am more hopeful than I was 4 months ago, but less hopeful than I was before the Stormers game. He may turn out to be a better Andre Snyman....or he may turn out to be a wing in centre's clothing.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 03:38:23
Mozart

Thanks for the link. I had a look at all the incidents you mentioned. You are correct about one issue involving De Jongh and JJ - namely the one at minute 53 - where De Jongh made about six meters after he got the ball. He stepped Engelbrecht and made about 5 meters before he got tackled - and the movement was for the moment stopped in its tracks.

The other instances really got tackled and fell forward in the tackle - made possibly 1 meter in tackle situation - nothing more. The other instance where he ran along the outside line was after a forward pass and half of the players stopped playing because the ref was about the blow for it.

Sorry you are stretching the situation to fit your argument - 5 meters is not applicable in any of the moves other than the one mentioned. I looked at the stats as well they showed 6 carries making 21 meters - ie an average of 3,5 meters per carry. You mentioned 4 instances where he carried the ball a total of 20 meters - so what happened in the other cases. Furthermore De Jongh beat 1 defender once only and he never off-loade the ball once. The stats and your account just does not match up - sad to say.

I know for some reason De Jongh can do no wrong in your opinion - but please look at the game - and match your statement in accordance with the stats before coming up with debatable points.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8371
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 04:05:31
Poor old Maaik....you can't even be spoon fed you are so thick. I am just going to take you through one incident.....the one at minute 26.55.

-

The ball goes from van Aswegen to de Jongh. He is about 8 metres outside the 22 when he gets the ball. How do I know. Well you can count his strides, but I'm sure stopping the video is too challenging....so you can compare with the 15 metre mark which is 2 metres long.....or you can note he is halfway between the 10 metre line and the 22.

-

He then runs onto JJ who is the full length of the 15 metre mark, outside his 22, when de Jongh receives the ball. He moves a step forward putting him 3 metres outside the 22 when contact is first made (he is not being very aggressive).

-

De Jongh is sliding past his tackle when Potgieter arrives to help. Together they try and stop him, but he continues his forward momentum into the 22....laying the ball back on the 22 metre line.

-

So what has happened here? De Jongh made about 6 metres before JJ hit him....JJ made at best one into the tackle. After that he made 3 plus metres to the 22 and over it. He then laid the ball back for good quick service.

--

In all de Jongh travelled about 9 metres with the ball, rode two tackles and got the ball back to his team quickly.

-

Why did this happen. Well firstly because JJ froze when de Jongh got the ball. Then he made a school boy mistake as de Jongh stepped....he got all of his weight going back......which is why when contact was made the smaller player was able to power forward. Instinctive tacklers move into the tackle....not back from the tackle.

-

But you say 5 metres is not applicable to any of the moves.....he made at least 9 in this move, including at least three through the tackle. But puleeze, this is painful stuff, go off and bother somebody else.


Denny

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1730
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 08:14:54

There's plusses and minuses to any and all of those combinations.....the first investment should be in a backline coach who knows a thing or two about backline play. The clown they have as the Bok backline coach was a below average backline player and is also a below average backline coach.


clevermike

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Posts: 12583
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 10:36:33
Crap Mozart - that incident that you cooked up happened as follows. DeJongh had about 8 meters clear space before Engelbrecht tackled him and he went down falling forward. He fell forward in the tackle and did not drag Engelbrecht 5 meters in the tackle situation as you outlined previously. That is my point entirely.

Please Mozart - go and study your stats. If De Jong made 13 meters in the one move - where did h e get the other 8 meters in 5 moves from? Let me quote you:-

" De Jongh making 5 metres after the JJ tackle was a regular feature."

That really is bull[removed] - you should be ashamed of yourself in making that statement.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8371
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 14:58:17
So if you admit he ran through 8 metres of space how could you say : "5 meters is not applicable in any of the moves other than the one mentioned ". A lie it seems.

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Did de Jongh make 5 metres through the tackle in this incident. No, on review it was more like 4. But did JJ stop him cleanly once....nope in one case he combined with Venter, in another case he combined with Potgieter, in a third case at minute 51.30 De Jongh gets hit by JJ and Venter, JJ slips off the tackle and Morne joins with Venter, to bring him to ground, in a fourth case he beats JJ cleanly and only gets tackled after he is held back by Ndungane.

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So in some cases he made more than 5 metres after the initial tackle in some cases he made less. Saying he made 5 metres was meant to be indicative not a measured distance every time. I think most posters would get that.

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But in each case JJ failed to bring him to ground by himself, failed to stop his forward progress and failed to prevent quick ball from de Jongh.

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Your dislike for this player, clouds your already cloudy judgement.. Juan did us a favour, he raised the right questions about JJ's defence.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 15:55:10
Mozart

Whether you like it or not - your initial comments were explicit - inclusive of the one I quoted earlier. It is furthermore contradicted by the ESPN match stats.

Let me be quite frank - Engelbrecht has some defence defficiencies - which I pointed out in earlier postings giving [removed] nearly a fainring fit - but to fabricate info so as to show De Jongh up as the hero of the hour - Is definitely not justified.

There are some issues to be borne in mind as to the game as well. The Bulls forward display was inferior and Morne's passing game crap at best - his strategic kicking was worse than I have seen for a long time. That - coupled to a poor display at 12 by Venter - made life for Engelbrecht very hard. One game is not the career barometer you always try and make it out to be.

On the other hand you never referred to the two missed tackles by De Jongh either - neither do you ever comment - other than to find excuses - on his atrocious defence statistics this year. Your unwavering support of De Jongh is indeed comical - so lets leave it at that. I see De Jongh from a wider perspective - his overall performances in all aspects of the game does not make him test material - and that is my point continuously. Where he was given an opportunity to play in tests in November 2012 - he failed miserably in both - so why continue to harp on a player that has failed virtually all the time since 2011 in Super 15 and in tests?


Spooony

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 718
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 17:40:41

[removed]

No they don't have plenty of pace. Just like Nonu do not have pace that a guy like Williams and Habana got. They got power. Look at Fourie's one try vs England. Power got him home. Against Crusaders power and his ability to hand off. 

 

Andre Snyman had pace and power. But they bulk up to be bigger and stronger carriers and loose that pace in the process. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12583
RE: Bok centre combination
July 21, 2013, 18:52:10
Spooony

You are correct you know. I met Andre Snyman once in Durban and his built was really unbelievable. He was injured at the time and said that his comeback will be spectacular - it was nothing but that. I think he ended up with too little speed to be effective. I think power is a must - but must to an extent be not so much that the player slowed down too much. There needs to be some balance in the process.

The one other requirement all centers should have is ball sense - which incorporates reading of the game. If a player constantly does the same thing every time he gets the ball it represents a situation where disaster looms. This is why I am so disappointed in Steyn's performances over the past year. Besides this Steyn is another case where speed was sacrificed for bulk and it shows badly in his performances. Maybe not bulk in his case - rather lard. LOL


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