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5411 Topic: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1968
Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 05, 2013, 04:48:28

I just came across an old post of mine that Spoony has brought back to the top. I noticed comments from Beeno, Spoony and A girl where Beeno and Spoony seem to think Jan Serfontein needs time and A girl thinks he is ready to become a starter now. This all happened before the Samoan game and Beeno was concerned they might try take him out so its best to keep him away from the game.

This is an interesting debate to see what guys think and who else they think may be ready or need time.

 

I dont think we need to worry about Jan Serfontein. Yes, we do not want to blood players before they are ready but some players just have it, some dont and never will and some need more time to get it. "it" refers to x factor.

 

Serfontein is one of those that just have it. Just like Frans Steyn. They dont need to be hidden away from some Samoan brute or wrapped in cotton wool. They are more likely to beat that brute Samoan with a calm head and skills even at their young age and make him look like the unskilled thug he is. Some guys like Goosen, Steph Du Toit and co will get there but need that extra year to learn how to apply their skills and when to. What I mean is Steph Du Toit and Goosen are clearly talented in their positions but they need to learn better how to manage their games. Steph Du Toit needs to learn when to use his brute reserving energy. He can not go at a million miles an hour all game. He wont be as effective. Goosen needs to learn when to attack the line hard and better assess what the defence is doing. He instinctively just wants to have a crack at every opportunity. Serfontein, Steyn, Lambie and guys like that just need to be on the big stage immediately. Lambie was taking high balls better than any fullback in his rookie year of Super rugby and he knew when to have a crack through the hands, or when to put it in the air or a little chip kick. He had a calm head on his shoulders. Just like Steyn when he bust onto the scene and I think Jan can be the best of the lot. I wouldn't hide him away for too long. He can be one of those "Brian o' Driscoll" type players for the Boks. A good 12 to 15 years of international rugby written all over him!


KalaedFreddie

Status: Squad member
Posts: 415
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 05, 2013, 08:08:13

@Boklogic

Some fans / armchair experts like all of us are lucky and the talent they punt sometimes achieve greatness.  Funny though, I have seen many of these young ones who show great potential and then they get involved with a women and the game goes for a ball of chalk.

Tell me, this great young prospect that was Frans Steyn, what has he achieved since getting married?  He got fat and slow fom eating too much nookie, nê.

Jan, Etzebeth, JJ, Lambie, Coenie, Reinach are just a few of the good ones who may become great players.  Many fans punt young Piet van Zyl, yet I rate Reinach a better scrummie, infact I think that by next season young Reinach may just be our best scrummie..

 

 

BUT, some of us are  more clever..

 

A girl

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 4933
RE: 42 players invited to final planning camp
May 24, 2012, 16:29:28

King, Taute is the answer at 13, agreed de Jongh offers stuff all. Jean will do at 12 until Frans returns, although Whitehead might be the better option against England

 

mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 3809
RE: 42 players invited to final planning camp
May 24, 2012, 17:00:16

Ok Sappster....you have already predicted a Bok loss if Meyer picks Jean, Habana and Morne. That's one.

 

So now all of a sudden you believe your case has been made because of a very politically correct squad of 42 players. So here's another bet.....I say none of Taute, Strauss, Jantjies and  Greyling,will make our Bok 22 against England. Care to stick your neck out again?

 

A girl

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 4933
RE: 42 players invited to final planning camp
May 24, 2012, 17:10:05

Taute will make the 22, Strauss and Jantjies might. Greyling wont.

So what on earth have Coenie, Strauss, Taute, Greyling and Flip got to do with political correctness huh?

 

mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 3809
RE: 42 players invited to final planning camp
May 24, 2012, 19:42:37

No he wont make the 22. The question is whether you will have another explosion about the coach when that happens. Will he go from on the right path to being a fool? And shampies Dave, political correctness doesn't have to be racial....this relates to keeping everybody in the boat, hence all the captains.

 

By the way, many of us are getting rather tired of your insults. They have no more shock value, they are just tedious. Your whole act on this Board is tedious. This is supposed to be an enjoyable part of our lives.....you should stop acting up for the benefit of your audience at SS, and post in a collegial way. But if your only purpose is to destroy things....be a good chappie and piss off.

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12958
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 05, 2013, 08:40:58
Interesting discussion. I want to add something though and that is the issue of ball sense. A lot of players get punted on this Board - but often enough it is because of weight and even speed and not because of ball sense. The latter is a crucial element that differentiate between a great player and a good player.

Of the youngsters mentioned most of the best players with ball sense are Jan Serfontein and Goosen. The ideal is to have a combination of ball sense and physical strength. Some develop the latter earlier than others. Serfontein is an early developer, Goosen needs some time to do so. He was 19 when he burst on the scene and then followed a series of injuries. Although he has the talent - I believe he was selected a year earlier than he should have been. If he has time to enhance his bodily strength he would be lees suspect to injuries and a really special player.

I think the difference between Hougaard and Reinach is that the latter has ball sense - and that Hougaard is really deficient in that component of the game - hence his hesitation what to do with the ball at times. Agree with you that Reinach by 2015 will be our top scrummie.

I have always rated Francois Steyn highly and was seriously disappointed by his performances since his return from France. Steyn basically always relied on his bodily strength and his ball sense was not really in evidence. Unlike others - I believe Steyn was already not really match fit when he returned from France and had a serious over-weight problem last year as well. The weight issue affected his speed and kicking ability as well. That brings me to another problem - will Steyn overcome his weight problem and improve his speed? It is not only his running speed - it is also his ball handling speed - which complicate the problem even further. Question - will Steyn fit into a high-speed orientated back line? Personally I do not think so. Maybe his future lies in playing at full back - not center.

Incidentally I do think JJ Engelbrecht will be a good center - as against a great one. My reason for this is - he has the speed and strength - he lacks the third element - namely ball sense.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 05, 2013, 14:13:56
Mike stop mentioning ball sense when you clearly have no idea what it means. If you did you would not be concluding that JJ and Hougaard have no ball sense and Reinach does. That very statement proves you don't know what ball sense is.

But feel free to prove me wrong, by explaining why Hougaard and JJ don't and Reinach does.

Take your time, for you know I am going to counter you at ever corner, chew you up and spit you out!!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12958
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 05, 2013, 15:18:07
A girl

I have given a definition of ball sense in the past - you indicated what I said about ball sense is tripe - yet you never indicated how you define ball sense. Please before we get into any further discussion of the issue - define in your own words what you regard as ball sense.

According to my interpretation of the meaning of the term - both Engelbrecht and Hougaard are more physical players - and Hougaard at times is really clueless about what he has to do with balls coming his way. Both are really not instinctive players at all.

Just let us all have a realistic description of the term and we can proceed with this discussion.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 05, 2013, 22:06:46

No Mike I asked you for your definition of ball sense and using the 3 players as examples. The fact that you tried to define it some time back means stuff all. It was a load of [removed] then as it will be now.

 

I just need the added pleasure of seeing you squirm trying to use examples. While I like you, I do know you are not bright enough to come up with the goods - hence my challenge.

 

I for a fact know that Hougaard and JJ have more than enough ball sense. I'm just intrigued as to why you dont think they do - well I know the answer - its because you dont have a clue what you are talking about.

 

So either get stuck in and take up my challenge or just forget it


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12958
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 05, 2013, 23:55:30
I asked a decent question and got a crap response. I gave a definition and you could not come up with any decent response - so I accept you are clueless about what is meant by ball sense. I can write a book where Hougaard showed no ball sense and there are some instances where Engelbrecht does not read the game properly at all.

However, since it is obvious you do not know or understand the meaning of the term - no further discussion will serve any purpose.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 06, 2013, 00:20:42

Just as I predicted you are too stupid to come up with the goods. You are sooooooooooooo predictable. Never fear Ou Mike we never really expected you to enlighten us on the art of ball sense. My guess is that if we left it at defining 'ball' you would have coped with that at a stretch


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12958
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 06, 2013, 00:48:26
A girl

It Is what I expected from you as well - rank stupidity. I gave a definition of the meaning of ball sense and you came back to the effect that what I said is [removed] - but you never gave a reason for that term so often used by you when you cannot come up with decent responses.

I am not going to repeat what I said then - since it was even then obvious that you are clueless. When I asked you above - since in your terminology what I wrote previously is "[removed]". our response is the biggest load of rubbish I have read for a long time.

Just start on the basis of reading of the game and instantaneous decisions taken to produce the best results for the team from any given situation in a game and you may get the message.

.


blobbok

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 656
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 06, 2013, 01:16:55
Radio Sport - New Zealand's Premier Sports Station

 

 

 

 

 

Oumaaik, a link if you haven't got it .... a blessing in NZ, 24 hr sports radio .


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 06, 2013, 01:20:50

 Mike do you honestly expect me to remember the complete bull[removed] you wrote regarding ball sense. Do you think your gargabe makes that much of an impression on me that I would remember it.

 

What are the chances of me having got past the first few lines before falling asleep with boredom?

 

Just be a sport and tell us why you think JJ and Hougaard have no ball sense and that Reinach does. I'd also love a definition of ball sense from you without having to google it.

 

Entertain me, for you are a man of rugby authority!!!!!!


Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1220
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 06, 2013, 02:43:05

 Mike, you've said that JJ doesn't have ball sense. You've also said that JJ's only downfall is his defence where he often rushes out, I fail to see where the two connect. Ball sense in my mind is a generalisation for space awareness, knowing where supporting players are and decision making. A good example of this would be Genia's contribution to Folau's first try in the first test against the Lions. JJ does have ball sense and if you've been watching the tests you would've noticed this on a few occasions, namely his try against the Samoans where I recall he launched him self sideways into a gap between two defenders to sprint in for a try, this could be counted as very minor but the subtle things can often add up and define if a player has... Wait for it... Ball sense! 

Mind I do agree with you in the sense of Reinach, he's the best scrummy we've got at the moment and I would say he would pip it above an in-form Hougaard.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12958
RE: Interesting debate..Saffex, Spoony and Beeno
July 06, 2013, 08:32:49
Shezza

You are putting the description of ball sense more or less in other words than I did - but it is nevertheless at least a partial description of the term - which A girl evidently does not know anything about. I would say ball sense include the following:-

* Proper reading of game situations - as you put it space awareness - and what method of play would be best and to the advantage of play would be to the advantage of the team and create more difficulties for the opposing team to deal with. The latter implies to a degree unpredictability and a deviation from standard methods employed in rugby.

* Decision making as to what to do to optimize benefits for the team as a whole to achieve maximum success for the team as a whole. This does not mean only physical usage of force/speed - but it also means what to do in using those qualities to affect benefits in junction with other players in the team - since the usage of physicality alone would normally be countered by proper defence by opposing teams.

* Positional play in the interest of the team - in other words to counter effectively moves and decisions by the opposing team - in other words what the player believes would be the actions of his own team would result in where the ball is going and turning up in positions that would benefit your own team and counter opposing teams play.

The above said physicality can be used as part and parcel of ball play - but it is not necessarily the beginning and end of all methods - it is in fact only an element of play that could produce results - but could and is normally countered by good defence by the opposition. Take for instance the case of Engelbrecht. He did score tries in recent tests through physicality - as you said he launched himself into "the gap between two players" but in the case of proper defence that alone would be countered - what would happen if he got tackled? Does he has the ability to take the gap and in the case of proper defence - take measures to off-load the ball to other players to maximise the benefit for other members of his team around him? I have rarely if ever seen that in Engelbrecht. He rarely if ever make a line break follow up by either passing the ball or any other method that would bring fellow players into the team - if he does not score a try like happened in the Samoan test - the ball dies in a crashball situation or he even makes wrong decisions like in the case of the missed try scoring opportunity when the ball was dribbled by Basson and between him and Basson they ended up with a knock-on by him.

Let me be more explicit. Engelbrecht has that tendency to rush out of line in defence - that can be coached out of him and is relatively minor - even though it represents a wrong decision in given cir[removed]stances and often enough lead to tries by the opposition - as happened in the games he played in against the Blues, the Crusaders and the Scots. However. Engelbrecht also makes wrong decisions as to his own play - for instance in the test where he was really over the line before he made an effort to score a try and ended up going out of play before touching down. This happened in two games where I clearly remember him missing out on try scoring opportunities - ie in the Reds game in the move seconds before the end of play and similarly in the recent test series.

The above indicates that there are decision making deficiencies in his game insofar as he himself is concerned, but also insofar as hi s collaboration of the rest of his team is concerned. Let me be more explicit - it is not only scoring tries himself that comes into the picture here - it is creating cir[removed]stances where team mates score tries that comes into the picture here. Take for instance the actions of Le Roux and Habana in the recent test series. Both did make major contributions as to other players scoring tries - apart from the fact that Habana himself scored as well and Le Roux did not. Engelbrecht if he did not score himself - did nothing to create cir[removed]stances for the benefit of other players to score tries.

I said that there is a difference between GOOD players and GREAT players. Engelbrecht is a good player - because he uses his physical strength and speed to achieve success insofar as h himself is concerned - but he makes some wrong decisions in the relevant regard as well and he does not contribute to other players scoring tries through the usage of his physical advantages. A great player not only use physical strength to gain advantage - he uses that quality to enhance opportunities for the rest of the team to benefit.

Hougaard is not a player that regularly makes good decisions and he is slow in even making decisions that are fairly standard during games. Watch all his games and you see certain decision making that is to the detriment of his team as a whole. That was the reason for Meyer dropping him as a scrummie last year - Meyer himself refer to poor decision making by the team - yet he ultimately was forced into dropping two main decision making players in Hougaard and later Morne Steyn. I have not noticed a marked improvement in recent games in Hougaard - on Super 15 level his most recent game showed improvement - but that was against the poor-performing Kings. Will it be the same in tests or will it be back to last year? I am not sure at all.

Finally let me put is bluntly - Engelbrecht is a GOOD player and after his most recent performances am satisfied that he deserves his place in the Springbok team. However, whether he is a GREAT player - I have not seen it thus far in him and it is unlikely that he would develop that ability since it implies a degree instinctive play not inherent in his make up. However, it is unlikely that Engelbrecht will be seriously challenged for selection to the team - while Hougaard will be and Reinach is the leader of the pack in the relevant regard.


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