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5336 Topic: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3423
Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 25, 2013, 22:51:49
ex sarugbymag-

PLUMTREE MAKES EARLY SHARKS EXIT

John Plumtree and the Sharks have agreed to part ways with immediate effect, following a meeting on Tuesday to resolve the termination of his contract as head coach.

Incoming Sharks CEO John Smit told Plumtree recently that his contract would not be extended when it expired in October, and appointed Brendan Venter as director of rugby. However, Plumtree's legal team wanted their client to be paid out for the two-year contract extension that was promised to him by outgoing CEO Brian van Zyl.

While Plumtree signed a confidentiality agreement at the meeting and therefore cannot speak about what happened, SARugbymag.co.za has it on good authority that a settlement was made that he felt was fair.

Brad MacLeod-Henderson is set to take up the role of head coach from the start of the Currie Cup, but there was no indication from the Sharks as to who would coach the side during the remainder of their Super Rugby campaign (the squad trained under assistant coaches Hugh Reece-Edwards and Grant Bashford).


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 25, 2013, 23:56:13

 No point in having an angry lame duck around. This guy has done enough damage, he certainly didn't help Lambie, mocked Fransie and played Steph injured. These guys are assets of the national game in RSA...and he was no custodian.

 

I wouldn't have had him around even if you had to pay him....better yet if you can reach a settlement.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3423
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 00:18:09

Finding out he never had a job in the media, and then goes through this saga his morale and motivation must be so low it would make no point in him continuing.

 

He was himself vocal in the media about his players so perhaps thier is some justice, altough hsi comments were probably accurate to begin with. Frans Steyn weighing more than the props at 120kg, saying that Kankowski was out of form and dropping him for the overseas tour. Not sure what he did to Lambie other than moving him around allot. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 05:07:26
Mozart

At times you really go off the rails. Lie to the media about a player like Francois Steyn would be totally unethical when a direct question is asked about factors that everyone in KZN knows about? Keep him at center - where he was failing and caused havoc by poor performance? He never mocked Steyn in the press - he merely confirmed what everyone knew and talked about.

Lambie was not spoiled by Plumtree - in what way was he? Meyer had more to do with the spoiling of Lambie by constantly harping on a kicking game and not other aspects of play. If Lambie was to be reatained in the Springbok team he was to play at flyhalf according to Meyer's format for Springbok play - so how did Plumtree not help Lambie? Remember he was not a candidate for full back - where in the EOYT squad last year Kirchner and Taute was included as full backs - and despite everything said and bar the injuries to those two Meyer would have stuck to those two like glue. Incidentally the only reason for the inclusion of Le Roux by Meyer was not his performances - but the fact that the two EOYT squad players were both injured or not matchfit. Otherwise Le Roux would have NO chance to be selected.

Du Toit was never treated on the field of play for injury and neither you or I know whether he may have hidden his injury and ultimately stopped doing so - such things have happened in the past and it would not be the first time if Du Toit has done exactly that. No coach would play an injured player - and even if there was a remote chance of injury - the player would have to pass a fitness test. Why would Plumtree play knowingly an injured player - if he was aware of an injury that could impact on the performance of the player and on the longer term career of the player?

I agree - Plumtree had to go because his team did not deliver the goods this year - but to invent things about his deficiencies is really a joke in bad taste. Plumtree had to deal with a most shocking player injury situation - where key players suffers from long term injuries - which is the main reason for poor performances by the team - but as a matter of fact that type of excuse is never accepted in such an environment - so he has to go.

Wonder what Venter will do with Francois Steyn? As a center of note himself - Venter will not put up with rubbish from Steyn - the latter will have to improve or go farming if he does not do so.


CleanCut

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1725
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 09:58:38

Looks like Smit has takent the nice guy hat off and replaced it with his arsehole hat.

 

Truly amazing how so many people change when given a little power.

 

From an average Joe suddenly transformed to a god in his own eyes!!

 

Never liked him. Still don't.

 

Plum was given a raw deal here.

 

We would welcome him to the Lions any day.

 

 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5817
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 13:56:17

crazy to see plumtree let go, especially when at the start of this year folks here and on other SA forums were talking about him making a good Boks coach, o_O
oh to be a fly on the wall at sharks HQ.

i would love to see plumtree coach he hurricanes but thats a long shot, wish him all the best though.


twinsgran

Status: Ref
Posts: 1
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 14:03:43

I think the way the Sharks especially John Smit has treated Plumtree is dreadful, he has done well for the Sharks in the past and he has had to deal with player injuries and a team that didn't seem to gel together but be that as it may, Plumtree deserves better treatment than he got and I am very disappointed in the whole Sharks Board, I have no respect for John Smit anymore


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3423
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 14:20:00

 John Mitchell experienced a player revolt when he ran his own players down in the media.

 

Perhaps this is also when the wheels really started falling off for Plumtree, when he said that Kankowski was totally out of form after returning from Japan and then dropping him for the overseas tour. 

Around the same time he was also dropping Steyn for being overweight, and telling the media that the Frans Steyn that showed up at preseason training was a 120kg beast.

Then also slating the squad in general in the media by saying thahad st senior players were out of form, and then announcing that Frans Steyn had started a personal boot camp training and was not available for selection.

 

Not sure how it is in NewZealand, but talking about SA players negatively in the media does not seem to go down well with our players

 

 

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 14:29:14
Whatever Fransie's weight was should have been between the player and his coaches. It was pretty obvious Frans was way overweight. In any case the weight issue never emerged until the Sharks started losing ....it was an excuse.

-

When coaches don't have the support of the players, management can't save them. Thus it was with Mitchell, thus it was with Plumtree.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 14:55:05
Mozart

What player revolt was there in the case of Mitchell? The court case afterwards prove that the whole storm was organized by two players - Strauss and Jantjies - and they were the only two who turned up at the hearing and then the allegations by them turned out personal issues - where Mitchell took them without going public to task about performances. Case was decided in favour of Mitchell.

Your argument on Steyn is equally unfounded. His weight was public knowledge - what Plumtree really emphasized is that something is being done about it. If you base your argument on discord within the team - then you are nearer the point. That was probably centered around Daniel on the one side and Steyn on the other side. Steyn was probably the hell in about being benched in the Kings game - when he was captain - and him being replaced by Daniel in the very next match. At one stage the Beeld had an article that basically accused Daniel of being against the Afrikaans players - and I am suspicious about Steyn's role in that article. What I do know is that Steyn had some support in the team - but there are others who believed his performance was not worth his retention - so the discord in the team continued.

Any coach who cannot handle that type of situation - must realize that he is not going to survive that kind of thing.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 15:42:07

Enough of a revolt to be suspended and have a legal action.....hard to coach when you are suspended ...hey? Mitchell also had problems at the Force......if you can't keep the support of the team, you will fail. Likewise Plum. I told you when this guy went public on Steyn he was toast. You disagreed. So, who was right?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 16:13:19
Mozart

re you really that thick - that public statement had probably an indirect impact on the issue - since it merely says what is being done to get Steyn back into form. It was merely confirming a fact that was generally known and although Steyn probably took umbrage at it - everyone really knows what happened.

After being made captain and being benched in the Kings match - before any public statement - could have been the main problem. It is difficult to deal with under-performing players and Steyn was under-performing and causing discord in the team. First of all he was removed from the captaincy BEFORE the statement and then BECAUSE OF CONSTANT POOR EPRFORMANCE DROPPED FROM THE SRTARTING LINE-UP.

If a coach is undermined because he acted in dealing with under-performance by players - then my sympathy is with the coach. That happened in the Steyn case and it happened in the Strauss - Jantjies case. There was nothing Mitchell could do about it - but that he was correct about Strauss and Jantjies is the fact that Strauss decamped to Scotland and Jantjies showed his incompetence in the Stormers team. The Lions without those two are doing quite well at present - so even though not admitted - Mitchell rid them of a cancer that was undermining the team.

How Smit and Venter is going to handle the Sharks team case and the role of Steyn in the malaise - is going to be an interesting scenario as well. As a center of repute - Venter is not going to put up with rubbish from Steyn and I have my own doubts about his future role in the team. May be played at full back or even at center - but that will be a short term issue - one has to see what happens in the CC and next years Super 15 - when the competent players are mostly back


Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1049
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 16:22:32

 Here you go again Mike, you've been proven wrong in the past about Steyn's involvement in the 'player revolt' yet your ego still has you believe your wrong opinion. Fransie most likely disliked the fact that his coach left him out to dry by mentioning his exact weight in public, then we come to this so called player revolt in which Steyn had little to no involvement and in fact has been known to inspire the younger players. Yes Frans has been out of form, but form is temporary class is permanent.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 16:30:48

It's really quite simple Oom. I was right about Plum blowing it...you were wrong. Accept it with good grace, there's a good chap.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 16:44:56
Shezza

There is NO Proof that Steyn was not the discord problem in the team - there are real indicators that he may have been. The fact that he is popular with young players is not a reason why he is not part of the discord in the team.

That term "form is temporary - class is permanent" is often the most abuse phrase in sport. The person who framed it did not have in mind that a player under-perform continuously for nearly a year and then use the term to justify the under-performance. Steyn was crap the past year - he was crap before his injury last year - and h was crap in Super 15 this year. The term applies to temporary slumps of a relatively short period - not a year-long persistent slump.

Mozart

The end result would have been the same - Plumtree had to act in the Steyn case - and once he acted the discord started. The statement was after he acted in the first instance - so it was of minor importance in the whole saga.

Do you think Plumtree should have accepted Steyn's poor performances and not act on it at all?


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 778
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 17:00:36

 Suddenly one player has become bigger than the franchise, it's certainly not uncommon for coaches to mention the form of specific players in the media, Fergie did this loads, it's the way the player responds that demonstrates character.  Pat Lam mentioned Piri Weepu's weight last year and he responded positively.  Players aren't above criticism, especially marquee players being paid a fortune who are not delivering results.

 

Frans Steyn was fat and out of form and having to be conditioned mid season.  I fail to see the issue in his coach answering a question honestly when Franz Steyn's condition and frankly lack of porfessionalism was obvious to everyone.  

 

The fact is Plum has done more for the Sharks franchise than fatboy Frans, he didn't deserve this treatment.  The Sharks deserve everything they get now.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 17:42:39
poi-e

I congratulate you on your insight in this case.


Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1049
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 19:47:11

It was common knowledge that Frans was overweight yes, but Plum didn't have a question asking Frans exact weight it was a statement/answer to a question regarding Steyn's form that he said the exact numbers. Mike Frans was regaining good form before his injury. There more evidence suggesting he was not part of divide in the Sharls camp than him being the catalyst of the divide. Steyn's form was so-so last year, in the English tests he kept Tuilangi at bay whilst De Villiers was getting ruined by Manu's runs and in those tests he had good form but then began to drop a bit in the RC. 

This Super 15 he started off well and where you were constantly saying he 'He never passes, all he does is crashball' He kept the Sharks in the game against the Cheetahs with his decent runs and OFFLOADING ability. After that when the Sharls began to struggle Plum blamed Steyn for all his problems and when he removed the problems persisted, my opinion is backline strategy and a lack of form from Pat Lambie.


mance

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 35
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 20:16:38

Steph Du Toit wants to leave the Sharks when his contract expires in October, although there are currently big efforts being made to keep him. The reason he wants to leave..............he believes the Sharks have jeopardised his career by forcing him to play for a month with the same injury that forced him out the Bok team. Dont be surprised if it announced in the next few weeks that he is joining the Bulls. John Smit is actively trying to get him and a few other senior players to stay, promising that mis-management of players will never happen again.

You can take this to the bank.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 20:50:55
mance

Welcome to the Board. Just one question - where did you get the info from as to Du Toit being forced to play despite an injury? If that was the case there is a real problem in the player management of Plumtreeand he should have gone earlier. I find it very hard to believe that one. Hope Du Toit does the obvious thing and rather go to the Stormers - the Bulls really are tdestructive when it comes to player careers - oops I have forgotten about Meyer's preference for Bulls players in the selection stakes.


Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1049
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 21:00:53

 Mike I would agree with you regarding Bulls being destructive for Backline players careers, not so much Forward players.


Marty70

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 56
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 21:32:57

ive always enjoyed the New Zealand touch with the Sharks with plumtree. he is a good coach and unfortunately just coudnt get the Super Rugby trophy. He had 5 years to get it but he failed. Time for new blood.

It is sad that he leaves on a sour note especially when it was Plums who always stood up for John ( from reports) but hey we dont really know the finer details. 

Life goes on and so do the Sharks! 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 21:37:54

If Mance is right, Plum really deserves to be canned. And his comments about Frans may be the norm elsewhere, but only coaching bullies attack their players in the media. Bullies and guys who  are at a loss as to how to turn things around.

 

We can't afford coaches who don't put players health first.


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 778
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 22:23:35

 Alex Ferguson a bully...maybe, but nobody questioned his results.  If he is getting the arse because of Frans Steyn then the Sharks have lost the plot...


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 26, 2013, 22:56:28

He is getting the hook because he no longer has the support of the players......regardless of whether you think that's deserved poi-e.....it's invariably fatal.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11024
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 08:52:42

Plum was not dealt with correctly by lardy who clearly is a green horn and out of his depth. Thankfully for the sharks they have Dr Brendon Venter to hold his hand.

Plum mentioned facts about Frans that were patently obvious to all and certainly it was not an attack. veyone but snapster could see he was overweight and sluggish and way off his best - folk wanted to kno wwhat was being done to rectify matters and Plum gave honest sensible answers

Mallet gets a call saying Smit is interested in you coaching the Shakrs how about it. Smit latter says he is thankful Nick tuned it down. Man how weird is that. Nick would obviously have thought Smit had had the decency to tell Plum he was out befre making the offer!  Please Moz if Smit wanted mallet as coach the appoval of the Board is a mere formality. You dont tell your new CEO tha the cant have the head coach he wants. Hence Mallet felt free to mention it in media.

Smit then make comments about how bad Nick is to let the media know when heshould havce told Plum he i sout  before all this and lardy then laments how hurtful things must have been for Plum - never mind to Nick whose name he drag sthrough the mud. Lardy then discloses that Jake made enquiries which is damaging to White if true. Jake is under contract to the Brumbies (And has said he is ver yhappy ther and not interested in any othe rcoaching job)  and couldnt possibly take up a post with the sharks so did Jake really say he was interested in the job - sound like bulldust to me.

We also have the self serving of lardy using his captaincy to play before the widely acknowledged best hooker in the wolrd at the world cup. We have Plum dropping him in favour of Bissie. We have lardy droping Plum.

Here is an article by Keo:

Respect is earned. John Plumtree as a player and coach did his time. He earned the right to respect but he was shown none in the manner of his axing as Sharks coach.

There are those who are lauding former Sharks and Springbok captain and new Sharks CEO John Smit for making what is being called ‘the difficult decisions’ with immediate effect.

I am not among them.

I believe Plumtree, true to the Sharks for two decades, deserved to be treated with integrity. He deserved to be judged on his pedigree as a coach. This was a decision that was premeditated and it is why Plumtree simply felt he couldn’t continue to see out the last six weeks of Super Rugby when the incoming CEO and Board had no faith in his ability.

Plumtree would have got the required financial payout but payment should have come with integrity and common decency and he was never shown this.

The Sharks administration has long described the Kwazulu-Natalians as a brand – and they treated their head coach more as a dispensable object than engaging human being.

Plumtree led the Sharks to the Super Rugby and Currie Cup finals a year ago. He was named South African coach of the year and yet he was considered not good enough to continue as coach of the Sharks six months later? (HERE ONE SEES THE DANGER AND FOLLY  OF PURELY LOOKING AT THE SCOREBOARD AND NOT ALSO AT CONTEXT. 19 INJURIES SKUTTLED PLUM THIS YEAR - A YEAR WHERE THE SHARKS MIGHT HAVE WON THE SUPER 15)

Smit played under Plumtree but Smit was also second choice for the Sharks in 2011 when Plumtree preferred the playing dynamic of Bismarck du Plessis. Plumtree was outspoken about who he rated the better option in 2011. Smit, by his action, has been as outspoken about how he rates Plumtree as a Sharks coach.

There was a history and it would appear that history has come into play.

How unfortunate.

Plumtree won’t talk ill of the Sharks or of Smit. It is not his style.

Smit has said all the right things in press conferences. It is his style.

The manner of the dismissal was a style I had never associated with Smit, as a player and leader of the Sharks and Springboks.

Smit’s decision has its supporters and only time can vindicate the decision.

But my criticism of Smit is not about whether to fire or retain Plumtree. It is all about how it was done.

I expected better. I know I am not alone.

The Sharks play the Blues this weekend and Plumtree will be willing them to victory. It is his way.

Why is it that the good guys in rugby get shafted? And the Sharks will only realise how much they shafted a good guy in his absence. This was a guy who gave 20 years service to the Sharks and espoused the cultural values of a team in which integrity was non negotiable.

He was a man who enjoyed success as a player and coach. He has not been judged on performance alone.

Plumtree will succeed as a coach elsewhere. The Sharks will have success in the future, but what the brand managers of the Sharks – or Smit – won’t have success with is putting a spin on how easy it was to turn on one of their own under the guise of tough love. (Hoor Hoor)

It sucks. Go well Plum.

All the very best Plum - sorry you could not be replacing our Allistair!

What amazes me is that this fine man was a nz oak! Have we found another Justin Marshall right under our noses!!!! That makes two honest kiwis in the world - knock me down with a feather! Maybe it was just the good influence we had on him?

 

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 09:34:34
Beeno

I have taken an opposite view here to what Mozart was saying and I stick with what I said.

The amount of rubbish written here is incredible. One example is that on Pieter-Steph Du Toit being forced by Plumtree to play whilst he was injured. If he felt he was injured and should not play - the only thing he should have done is to go to the team doctor - report he thinks he has a problem - and if the team doctor acted unprofessionally - he would be before the Medical Council and out of his profession. The only way Du Toit could play with an injury if he himself tried to hide the injury - yet Mozart fell hook, line and sinker for that bit of blarney.

In the meantime - I am not surprised in a way by Smit's conduct - towards 2010 it became apparent that Bismarck was in fact a better hooker than Smit and he was played as a prop at times - rather than at hooker. That could have soured relationships.

I do not think that the way Plumtree was treated was really ethical - even if they do not want to extend his contract - the Super 15 was lost already and the three month period would not have made any difference - other than to cause the media havoc - a letter to Plumtree saying with regret his contract could not be renewed - would have been the way to go.

As to Mallett there is another angle as well. After the way he treated Teichmann - Mallett would really not e the cup of tea the Sharks Board would like - so even if Smit wanted him - there would have been some Board problems.

Finally - I think that part of the problem - and also the division in the camp can be attributed to Francois Steyn. Question - who started the story in the Beeld about Daniel as being unhappy about the Afrikkans speaking players in the team? That there are factions in the team is evident - why should there were none last year and why did it start this year with Steyn in the mix?

On the whole the Plumtree termination stinks to high heaven and one can only hope that the situation improves in next years Super 15. I also think that Venter will not put up with rubbish from Steyn and that we would see what happens then.

As to the Du Toit angle - he will accept the highest offer made to him - be it the Sharks, the Bulls or the Stormers. I think if Jantjies is retained at his present massive fees - the Stormers will not have the funds to get Du Toit in any event.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11024
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 15:40:06

Well it appears Plum is laughing all the way to the bank!

 
John Plumtree (Gallo Images)
 
Ex Sport 24

Cape Town - The Sharks will have to pay John Plumtree for the next two years after the coach left the union following a meeting with new CEO John Smit, a report on the Beeld website indicates.

This comes after Plumtree - who was earlier sacked by Smit - met with the Sharks boss on Tuesday to discuss the terms of his release.

Plumtree was due to coach the Sharks until the end of this year's Super Rugby competition, but stepped down with immediate effect following the meeting.

He brought his legal team to the meeting to argue that he should be paid out for the full two-year contract extension he was promised by the current CEO, Brian van Zyl. (ARGUED and won it seems - impplying lardy had fouled up?)

Van Zyl, who is set to step down from his role, recently indicated he wanted the Sharks to keep Plumtree as head coach. Plumtree's legal team argued that Van Zyl's verbal agreement with him is binding.

And that verbal agreement between Van Zyl and Plumtree now means the Sharks will have to cough up for the next two years, even though Plumtree won't be part of their plans.

Smit also recently announced the appointment of Brendan Venter as new Director of Rugby at the Sharks. Venter will perform the role of overseeing all coaching proceedings at the union, while former Sharks flank Brad MacLeod-Henderson is the favourite to fill the head coach position, starting in this year's Currie Cup. (I hear Venter will still be based in Somerset West so he can continue with his medical practice and will still be consulting to Saracens!!!)

Meanwhile, the Sharks confirmed on Wednesday that assistant coaches Grant Bashford and Hugh Reece-Edwards will take over the team's coaching duties for the remainder of the Super Rugby competition.



 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 15:47:49

Nonsense Maaik.....you don't keep somebody in charge when you know they have to go, it compromises your own integrity. Nor do you inform somebody by letter that they are fired....this isn't the Natal Provincial Administration.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11024
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 16:13:07

Moz do you think appointing a guy who has just finished playing as CEO is a wise move. Being a rugby captain and CEO are not the same.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 16:27:07
Mozart

It may not be the Provincial Administration - but there is something called decency in life and one of those is you do not let it out to the newspaper that somebody has been fired - or does something that would end up in the paper with a similar effect. It is not even a sign of poor behaviour - it is disgusting and cowardly. Mallett did the same to Teichmann - when he fired him as captain by telling the newspapers that he has fired him. Not manly enough to tell that to the man face - to -face or even over the phone.

I have no problem with Plumtreee's termination of his contract - I have a problem in the way it was done. Maybe Smit would learn something about that in his new job and he will have to learn plenty if he wants to get things right in that set-up. There is a hell-of-a-lot wrong that needs to be corrected and although people won't believe it - he will have to start and deal with Francois Steyn. I still believe he was the source of the division between players in the squad.

And the next thing we are going to hear in the media is that Bismarck is off to France - watch the media for that one.


mance

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 35
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 18:52:12

Clevermike,

The story about Steph Du Toit is not fiction.....it happened. The fact is when he had his first medical upon arriving at the Boks he was sent packing. It's common knowledge within the Sharks camp that he had been struggling with the injury for some time and only after the Bok medical team sent him to various specialists was it decided he needed surgery. The Sharks did not do the same. Believe me, he is a very unhappy young chap at the moment and only some sharp persuasion will keep him in Durban.

You are correct in a way about some divisions in the Sharks camp but it is not as serious as some make out. The problems really started when Plum started panicking with the injuries and poor performances and brought in a host of Lions players. This was a fatal mistake as it sent a message to the fringe players that they were not good enough. The main reason why Juandre Marais is on his way. You must also remember that Frans Steyn was already out of the picture with injury by this time.

Plum also let personal issues cloud his judgement hence the very poor excuse that Kanko was in poor condition thus his exclusion from the touring squad. Kanko was ready to hit the road but has now re-signed with the Sharks.

One last thing. Any thought that there is bad blood between Smit and Bismark is pure fiction. They are very good friends......ask any Shark or Bok player.


Ihi

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 201
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 19:05:32

sharks have big name players and so much talent in their squad they are way better thann what theyve done under Plum. his poor management i think continued from where muir let the team down and they needed a change. i think plum hasnt achieved anything great with this group of players.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3423
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 19:44:58

 Michalak was the form Flyhalf in SuperXV for 2012.

How much have the Sharks missed him?

 

I remember reading an article by Brendan Venter talking about the game plan of the various SA teams in the SuperXV.

He said that the Sharks appeared to have no game plan in 2013. 

 

Michalak was playing well in 2012 but Lambie has been very average


Ihi

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 201
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 19:57:43

it makes a big deal who is coaching the players and i think we'll see better things from guys like lambie and frans and other younger fringe players. i mean they have a springbok front row and springboks all over the place a team like that should be kicking serious ass. good luck to plum but i think smit made the right choice. its sad to see so many players not achieving their best performances and i think a guy like lambie has really suffered i mean his senior time has been in this environment from the beginning and he had to take the resonsibility of taking backlie expectations as well. things can only get better from here. i remember how exciting the sharks used to be to watch maybe the new coach will turn it around.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11934
RE: Plumtree leaves Sharks today instead of finishing the SuperXV
June 27, 2013, 21:54:19
mance

If it was "common knowledge" that Du Toit was plagued by an injury - why did the Medical doctor of the Sharks players not know about it? If he knew and did not stop Du Toit from playing he was neglecting his duty. The medical issue is the responsibility of the team doctor - not the team coach. That is why every team has a medical professional - if he passed a player as fit - then what can the coach do about it?

That kind of thing could happen if a player hides an injury or if he does not report the issue to the team doctor and nobody in authority really knows the professional medical issue at play. If the doctor felt that something is wrong - but they need further professional advice - he would refer the player for specialist investigation. I believe the whole situation has nothing to do with the coach, who has no knowledge whatsoever about medical matters. If there was one person in the team that would have heard something about it and done something about the issue - it was Jannie Du Plessis - a medical doctor himself.

That is why I even doubt "the common knowledge" story. Even if it was doing the rounds - the fault is entirely the responsibility of the team doctor - not of the coach. There is one issue where the coach can be blamed and that is if the doctor brought the issue to the attention of the coach and advised him against the player being played and he ignored it - and neither you nor I nor anybody else - other than the doctor and Plumtree would know if that actually happened.

I have heard something else about the story about the divisions in the camp - it went much further back than in the tour matches of the Sharks. Who was in fact the "host" of outside players brought in by Plumtree - I think initially there was only Van der Merwe who actually replaced Sykes - and in the tour party there were in the camp two outsiders Minnie and Van Rensburg brought in. after the young wing he brought in was injured as well. I think to call bringing in two outsiders because of injuries to Sharks players does no represent a "host". And those two were specialized players.

There are way too many stories doing the rounds actually not being based on fact. Fact is the Beeld article on the issue was not based on fiction - it was told to the reporter by somebody inside the camp. It had no bearing on rugby matters - was an effort to undermine Daniel as a captain. Who was responsible for that undermining - you can ask yourself that question and try and find the answer.

I think evidence indicates that the finger can be pointed to Steyn more than anybody else. He no doubt has his supporters in the set-up and was clearly upset when he was relieved from the captaincy after being benched in the third game the Sharks played in Super 15. That was in early March - not later as suggested by you.


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