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4938 Topic: Jean the legend
mozart

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Jean the legend
May 25, 2013, 22:05:59

What a glorious try Jean scored today and what pace to run round and then outstrip the Reds 13. The man is a colossus in a young team.

 

Today I thought, as I did early in the year, that de Allende was very effective...the Stormers probably benefited from the change. Pietersen is a lucky packet of good and bad things. Jantjies had his best game as a Stormer...and showed better touch than the Qualude.

 

The young guys in the pack did well. Carr was good throughout. Kolisi started well, but faded a bit in the last 20. He seems to have a stamina problem. Liebenberg is also a lucky packet....but we got a good draw at the end. He made a difference.....a big hooker is not negotiable in top rugby.

 

But the giant in the game was Etzebeth. Adapting to 5 he virtually destroyed the Reds lineout and the highly (over) rated Horwell. Some of our Kiwi buddies were asking what the Etzebeth hype is all about....well, watch the game chaps.


Saffex

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RE: Jean the legend
May 25, 2013, 22:09:37

Good call all round there Moz. The only question mark I had, was why Groom was left out of the equation at 9.


clevermike

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RE: Jean the legend
May 25, 2013, 22:23:49

The Stormers played well and deserve the win.   I think Etzebeth was the real star today and the situation was that he  did a demolition job on the Reds lock forwards.

I was happy with the performance f Jantjies - at last he did something better than expected.   However, the big change that brought the Stormers the victory was De Allende.   The defence was sound and not full of holes like it used to be when De Jongh was playing and none of the Red players really ever threaten to score a try.

I still think that De Allende and De Villiers combination at center should have been applied the whole year long - and the results would have been much better than they were.

 


Saffex

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RE: Jean the legend
May 25, 2013, 22:30:52

de Allende showed that physicality trumps and that size is a must at centre


mozart

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RE: Jean the legend
May 25, 2013, 23:51:31

Things often work for a few games the fade. de Allende played well at the start of the S15, poorly off the bench, but he was back to his best today. He made one ankle high tackle in space that even de Jongh would have been proud of, had he made it.

 

The real story of today's game is how much the absence of Etzebeth has cost the team. If you are the strongest guy on the park , smart and highly skilled...you carry the team. The fact that RooiAAS doesn't rate him....is the ultimate endorsement.

 

 


Saffex

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 00:18:48

Etzebeth is a physical freak and a skilled one at that. He had a huge game as did Steph du Toit. This pair as a combo is a mouth watering prospect.


mozart

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 00:21:50

Agreed...by the time RWC15 arrives, Steph and Eben could truly be an intimidating partnership.


clevermike

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 00:33:25

Mozart

Missing circa 30% of all atempted tackles - De Jongh would have been proud to make any tackles made by De Allende today - because h made so few efetive tackles.   De Jongh's defence is the joke of the year - that is why the Stormers backline was a complete sieve when e was around.     Bekker was a huge factor in most games he played in and Etzebeth took over from him when he is out - so the reason was not entirely the lock situation - but really the backline sieve.

 


mozart

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 00:38:01

The backline " sieve"? Are you talking about the best defensive team in the league or some figment of your imagination?


clevermike

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 01:06:52

Mozart

Dont talk crap.   If a player miss circa 30% of all attempted tackles - he is a sieve insofar as defence is concerned.  The defence of the Stormers this year was far from satisfactory and it cost them matches they should have won.   The main problem was De Jongh - and in his absence the situation improved drastically.

Incidentally the 30% comes from the ESPN stats - so I assume because it does not fit in with your ideas in this specific case it needs to be ignored. 

Just one question - how many minnutes did De Allende play off the bench?   I can only remember a stint of about 5 minutes when he made a serious mistake.   So back to the generalized statements based on a single incident in one game where th player was on the field of play for about 6 minutes?


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 03:26:41

 Moz, first question is are we still mentioning Rooipricks name in rugby posts. The man is an over grown goon. He is the other side of 50 and still acts like a laaitie! He hasn't got a clue.

 

What could have been if the Sharks and Stormers had not suffered the injuries they have this season. End of the day, they cant be the best SA performers every year but I have no doubt that they would have been right up there this year if not injuries. Especially the Sharks. out of 35 registered players on their roster pre tournament, they have 20 unavailable! That is unbelievable and I doubt any other team would be able to compete in those conditions.

Sharks were the better team on the park last night. No doubt! They butchered a few try scoring opportunities whilst Bulls never came close to scoring. It will go down as a loss and in terms of SA rugby, not a bad thing but writing is on the wall for the Bulls. Its no use just being sublime at home but get walked all over away from Pretoria. That does not make for a championship team!


mozart

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 03:40:20

BL I agree the Sharks were the better team. Apart from the try they could have scored at least four other times. The Bools .....not really. I think they got a little frantic at times.


mozart

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 03:47:30

These de Jongh missed tackles are mostly the result of him getting deep and almost forcing the opponent to step inside. They generally amount to nothing and are almost inevitable in a rush defence. Unlike the outside break misses of Jordaan, which are really damaging, as we saw against Fruean.


clevermike

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 09:30:57

Ignore

Bullshit baffles brains - as per normal.   Ignore the stats - they are meaningless because they refutes Mozart's perceptions.  A missed tackle is a missed tackle - and the way you try to explain them is ridiculous in the extreme.   Face it - De Jongh was catastrophic in that department of the game.

What tackle did Jordaan miss on the outside break of  Freuan?   Jordan made the tackle - but Freuan managed to off-load the ball.   Huge difference between that and a missed tackle like was conjured up in your mindless consideration - not factual.   Jordaan missed in total  4 tackles  and made 62 tackles this season - De Jongh missed altogether nearly 30% of all attempted tackles - whether on the inside or outside - or just being run over by opponents. You can try to explain all you like to do just that - but your explanations are an insult to intelligence.

 


Beeno1

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 11:09:34

Boklogic you misunderstand my good friend rooitwits "sense of humour'. It's warped to be sure but very funny. I much appreciate it.

However I have to agree with your other points. It s unquestionably really that the Stormes and Sharks barring injuries are the two strongest SA franchises. The sharks were without any doubt the better side on the day and it was a  travesty they did not win. 

Meyer is going on blind hope re hougie and that frot vis spies  - terrible rugby by these two in particular.  Kirsten got schooled by beast and Cooper outplayed chilli boy by a country mile. I also agree that away from loftus and the altitude they have little hope. 

What a pity the season of the Stormers and Sharks were ruined by injuries. Something has to be done about it 37 injuries between these two teams!!!

Barring this one would have by logic to acknowledge the SA Conference to be the strongest followed in my view by OZ.

I asked mooooo la to name the chiefs injuries but so far no luck. 4 out doesnt add up to 17 or 20 mooooo la. 

As for De Jongh - not playing Allende was daft and Allistair is left red faced again. But well done to all for the Reds win.

Allende would do well for the Boks. He can match up physically very well.  But like Fourie at 6 his chances of Bok seelction have been stuffed up by Aliistair. That said Meyer should open his eyes. Drop the duds Meyer, they can be spotted a mile away. They have had ther chances. You can pick a powerful squad if you get it right. Why then pick Chilli boy, Juandre, Kolisi, Spies, Kan kan, De Jongh, Rhule (actually was a bit better coming on as a sub) and I am sure to be forgetting a few other duds.

Bulle need to play Arno at 8 and Willemse at lock. Try and get some authority going. We dont want mean ou and windpomp living in a state of embarrassment. Also, unfortunately, the bulle could be representing us in the playoffs - alas!


clevermike

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RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 13:23:57

Lord Beeno

I think we have a long way to go before the final places on the log is decided.  For instance the Bulls are facing the Cheetas this weekend in Bloemfontein.   I think the Cheetahs are going to have them for breakfast and may even get 5 points out of the game.   That would mean that if the Bulls do not get a bonus point - they may yet be ousted from position 2 on the log - since they have still to play at Newlands against the Stormers.   Please note that the Cheetahs won nine of their matches this year against the Bulls 8.  The real difference is the bonus point situation utting them ahead of the Cheetahs on the log..

As to the Stormers - much of their misery could have been avoided if Coetzee made decent selections - the injury problem was augmented by that one.   De Jongh was useless and only a dolt would have selected him ahead of De Allende this year.   The string of losses with a disfunctional backline is testimony of that - the first time Coetzee were forced into doing the obviously-correct thing and nothaving the useless De Jongh around - they won.

 


mozart

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Posts: 7805
RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 16:14:49

So OOMPIe it was de Jongh's fault they lost those games? But you want some stats on de Jongh. Well here's one for you.....de Jongh is statistically the most likey Stormers try scorer. His 3 tries in 8 games trumps Jean and Bekker's  4 tries in 11 and 12 games. You see if you take raw data (tries) and divide it by other raw data (games played).....you get a statistic. And unfortunately that statistic  makes you look a bit foolish. The most likely try scorer lost the Stormers matches? Nah it doesn't parse.


clevermike

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Posts: 11916
RE: Jean the legend
May 26, 2013, 16:44:12

Mozart

Fine - he scored two tries in one game - against the Cheetahs - which game was lost, partly because of the fact that he -

*   missed 50% of the tackles he attempted to make that day; and

*   he did a Twickenham vanishing trick for the whole of the second half of that game

Tackles he missed put his team constantly on the back foot and ultimately let to the Cheetahs being able to get a distinct advantage over the Stormers.   How come all the games he played in - disrupting the fuunctioning of the backline - the Stormers won two games and lost the rest.   They beat the Brumbies - but it was narrow - because De Jongh missed a tackle on Speight and that could have cost the Stormers the game as well.   The ther game against the Hurricanes was close because between De Jongh, Aplon and Pietersen - they made 11 tackles and missed 5 - the famous defensive sieve at work

Allow me also the privilege to give you the stats for the last two games played by the Stormers - eg against the Rebels and against the Reds - pointing out the fact that the first one they lost - the second one they won:-

Rebels

  de Villiers 0/0 0 0/14/12 10 0 0 0 1 10/1 0/0 0 0/

de Jongh 0/0 0 0/3/6 24 0 3 1 1 7/3 0/0 0 0/0

Reds

de Villiers 1/0 5 0/6/6 66 2 2 1 0 6/1 0/0 0 0/0

de Allende 0/0 0 1/0/5 33 0 4 0 1 10/2 0/0 0 0/0

Now you tell me which of De Jongh or De Allende performed better.    De Jongh missed 30% of his attempted tackles - De Allende 16%.  

GET THE MESSAGE?  

 


mozart

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Posts: 7805
RE: Jean the legend
May 27, 2013, 00:11:33

Ah but  de Jongh made an offload and de Allende didn't. So now we are trading off one missed tackle vs one accomplished offload. This is nonsense Oom, it's not a statistically  significant sample. That's the message, if you understand the concept.


clevermike

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Posts: 11916
RE: Jean the legend
May 27, 2013, 03:17:53

Mozart

What is sigbnificant in this series is that De Jongh missed 28% of all attempted tackles.  That for any team represents a major problem.   That for any team represents a serious problem and put the team on the back foot all the time.   He did finish off and scored three tires made for him by De Villiers in two cases and other players in the third case.   De Jongh cannot and never have made space for other players to benefit from attacks.  He is physically too smal and weak to do that.  

He used to have another problem - getting tackled back and losing possession of the ball or hanging onto balls resulting in penalties.   That was less obvious this year - but remains a problem nonetheless.   If I was a coach - I would look at the issue and decide on balance he is too weak a player to be of real value - since he tends to produce more negatives than positives.  


mozart

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Posts: 7805
RE: Jean the legend
May 27, 2013, 04:17:14

Oh sure a weak player handed off Fran's Steyn. If you really believe one player was solely or even mainly responsible for all those losses, you are pretty naive. Rugby is a team game, and rarely is the loss down to one player....except sometimes the kicker. The difference between average and weak tackling stats, is perhaps one missed tackle.....of maybe 20 missed tackles in a game.

 

De Jongh is a fine tackler....he doesn't hang back though, and tries to make the tackle advancing quickly. That  means one or two missed tackles, but it also provides vulnerable ball on the deck well behind the advantage line on the many occasions he succeeds. That's why he is a Bok.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11916
RE: Jean the legend
May 27, 2013, 08:25:00

Mozart

You are being naive here.  If it was one or two missed tackles now and hen - that is a reasonable situatio - but a 30% missed tackle ratio over all the game he played in is jut not acceptable - it is 3 times higher than it should be.    Steyn himself had a bad defence history this year - so handing him off  is no real distinction.  

Look I am not blaming De Jongh totally for the Stormers losses - but his poor defensive record is a definite contributor.   His other issues - like knocking on balls, giving away penalties and  deficiencies in attack - make him a poor investment.  You laud him for the try scored in the CC final - but he himself gave away two converted penalties in that game - about that you remained silent.

On the whole De Jongh - I sincerely believe - does not have the capacity to play rugby on a level higher than CC.   The following should be borne in mind:-

  *  On test level he was a joke in both the Murrayfield and Twickenham tests whee he deivered zilch and his stats was equal to what a backline player coming from the bench at minute 60 would deliver;

  *   Since 2011 his contribution to the Stormers backline statistically was a farce - even though you refuse to consider those stats ;

  *  Last year when he was not playing in CC - the WP backline was more potent than when he in fact was playing.

De Jongh being a Springbok is a joke in bad taste.   He is there I believe largely because of BEE and not of anything positive being delivered.  He buggered up badly a scoring oppotunity in the Australian test lin Pretoria last year  - he was a joke in the Murrayfield test and went missing in the Twickenham test.   If that does not show he is not worthy of selection - I wonder what would show it.   And the fact that with him in the backline the Stormers lose more than they win - remains for me a true indication that his role is negative.      .    


Beeno1

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Posts: 10911
RE: Jean the legend
May 27, 2013, 08:33:00

Ou maaaaikie, the problem with De Jongh is that he is not playing in his best position. I believe he could make a good wing. Plenty of pace some nice skills on the run  etc.

Of course it takes a bit of rugby nous to spot something like this. Always remember who said Spies should have stayed on the wing.

Jean has always been faster than he looks - big backs look slower but often their top pace is better than small oaks who look quick, are quick off the amrk, but lack really good top speed.

I am quite surprised nobody commented on how Killian hauled in the supposedly quick Rhule?


mozart

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Posts: 7805
RE: Jean the legend
May 27, 2013, 14:49:20

Seems Rhule is another hyped player....his tackling and decision making leave a lot to be desired.


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 759
RE: Jean the legend
May 27, 2013, 17:58:44

Jean is certainly not a man who sees himself as a legend...just a very strong and solid player that gives his best.

Certainly one of my heros because he has been a good captain in a sinking ship but has managed to keep the ship afloat.

It's easy to be a captain in a floating ship but it takes one hell of a man to rise above these circumstances.

I still have confidence in this man...a damn good centre and a type of man that elevates strenghth , confidence and trust.

From a devoted Sharks supporter. It's either you or Strauss but because you understand this game more than the common herd...you will not take personal grievance even if you lose captaincy to a younger man...in fact it will allow to finish at your best...you are great Jean.


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