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4375 Topic: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 613
The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 06:43:13

I  get the impression that there is a huge problem here...whether it is a mindset or favouritism related to provincialism or a bit of both I can only surmise.

The mindset that Labuschagne, Daniels and Kolisi are too light or too small is just plain cods wallop. You take Thierry Dusautour, who I rate as one of the worlds best flankers, he only weighs 100kg yet in 2011 last world cup he stood out as the best flanker...even had an edge on the great Richie. And in 2007 here is just another example below. This fallacy of being too light is certainly verified here. Keegan is only 8 kg lighter. Kolisi is the same weight, 1 kg heavier in fact ...not sure about Labuschagne but this not the big issue or is it?? I think he is about 5 kg heavier in fact.

He is perhaps most famous for his try against New Zealand in the quarter final of the 2007 World Cup in Cardiff in which he famously made 38 tackles, two more than the entire All Blacks side. He was nominated for world player of the year solely on this performance.

It appears that certain young key players too are being affected by HM's coaching style...ie Lambie's and others creativeness is being destroyed because of conservative mindset ...he is not playing to his natural style because he fears to go outside his instructions in case it fails...bold play has it's risks.

HM's manipulative coaching style might work for the Blue Bulls but as a national coach it certainly appears that there are huge flaws here.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5475
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 08:08:04

each to their own, but jerome kaino was the best loose forward in 2011 by a country mile.
dussatoir captained the french to losses against the All Blacks twice, england, italy and tonga, in those losses he had one great game against the english, he was good against italy but average in the losses to the All Blacks and put to shame by vilami mafu in frances worst loss in its history against tonga.
kaino should have won it 2011 IMO.
despite my opinions on who should have won iut, i do rate dussatoir, lolz. i think on his day hes a very complete looseforward, remids me a lot of juan smith.

but regarding the exclusion of lappies, its important to keep in mind that its only the first of three training squads, im sure lappies will make at least on of the next and if dosent make it then, then and only then is complaining warranted, till then a little patience will go along way, lolz, :o)


Ek

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Posts: 1464
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 08:13:14

Sasuke : " its important to keep in mind that its only the first of three training squads, im sure lappies will make at least on of the next and if dosent make it then, then and only then is complaining warranted, till then a little patience will go along way, lolz, :o)"

Wiser words have never been spoken.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8968
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 08:37:39

Seb please!!!! Meyer is asolutely correct to exclude daniel who should have been a scumhalf really and has never made an impact playing for the Boks and completely disappears in the games against powerful packs. He does a few show pony things and his dilly fans swoon like the muppets they are!

Brussouw is outclassed by both Louw and Deon Fourie who should have made the squad. Playing Kolisi has to be a colour thing as he is a non entity on the ground and not as fast, skillful or strong as Fourie. Labuscagne should have made it that I grant you. He is a bit light at 105 kg but if form means anytthing he should be there.

How about de Jager the 125 kg Cheetahs lock. Juandre Kruger 110 kg get is before him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Madness.

One can only hope Meyer improves on some of these selections later on. At the moment it would appear that bulle players and quota issues are buggering things up. Love to know what quotas are in place re both player and coaching staff - the only explanation for the selection of the bulle Vodacom backline coach Loubcher that I can think of. Any other ideas?

saSUE as usual misses the mark. We expect Meyer to select sensibly and in a number of cases his selections are absurd. They are not remotely reasonable. That is very annoying. This from a guy who has supported Meyer. So as I said lets hope ou Meyer wakes up and selects properly.  


Beeno1

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RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 08:44:28

It is also complete nonsense to blame Meyer for the way Lambie is playing. Don't try and tell me that Plum is not the major coaching influence over Lambie. Lambies tactical kicking game was correctly identified as not being up to scratch and quite rightly Meyer told him to work on that. He never coached Lambie to stop playing his attacking game!!! That is all ou dom Mike's fantasies at work!! ROTFL  ROTFL  ROTFL

Such scandalous allegations are rejected ou maaaikie! No more anti Meyer propaganda - please stick to the facts and get off the Vitalis!! ROTFL


Beeno1

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RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 08:53:58

Some views re the squad from Keo

Willie le Roux has not cracked Heyneke Meyer’s Bok training squad of 36.

There is also no place for Cheetahs world-class loose-forwards Heinrich Brussow and Lappies Labuschagne.

Le Roux is the most flamboyant of the South African back three options, the in-form South African winger in Super Rugby and the most noted omission from Meyer’s first picks of the year.

Meyer, as every coach does, qualified the squad by saying it doesn’t represent a closed shop but the failure to identify Le Roux as a squad option says more about how Meyer is investing in the conservative and predictable than a player who thrives on instinct.

There is reward for the youngsters who have made an impression in this season’s first two months of the competition and there are inclusions made on potential rather than performance.

Bulls centre Jan Serfontein is one such player. He has played less than three matches in game time but is included because of the form he showed for the Baby Boks last year. (Snapster calm down please boet!!)

Serfontein is being introduced to the Bok culture and it is still likely he will be used with the Baby Boks this season and introduced to Test rugby on the end of year tour.

Meyer, given the Boks play Scotland and Samoa in the home Tests, has room to mix and match veterans with new players and try out new combinations.

Sharks lock Pieter-Steph du Toit and Cheetahs centre Robert Ebersohn have demanded inclusion through consistently very good displays.

The training camp will be held from April 14-16 in Cape Town and no Kings players were considered for the camp, as they will only just have returned from overseas.

Meyer said the credentials of Kings players would be considered for the second camp, to be held in Durban and the end of May.

Meyer has kept with the core group of Boks he used last year.

Teenage flyhalf Handré Pollard, who excelled for the Baby Boks in 2012 and was the star of the Tukkies title challenge in the Varsity Cup, will remain with the Baby Boks for now.

Andries Bekker and Jacques Potgieter, tied into Japanese club commitments, were not considered. Neither was injured utility back Jaco Taute.

Juandre Kruger and Morne Steyn, who will both play in France post the Super Rugby season, are still part of the group.

Bulls utility back JJ Engelbrecht, picked to start last year, has not made the training squad.

No overseas-based players will attend the training camps

The final qaud will hopefully look very different but Meyer could have done better his time round.


clevermike

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Posts: 10305
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 10:20:49

Beeno

You are indeed on cloud 9 insofar as the Lambie issue is concerned.   The statements I used was uttered by Meyer himself.   There never was anything wrng with Lambie's strategic or goal kicking  before Meyer's remarks on Lambie's kicking game.   Th reason was that Lambie did not play according to Meyer's kicking style game plan.   He did not match the way the ideal flyhalf - in Meyer's case Morne Du Plessis - played,

Although kicking is part of the game - Meyer alwats placed it ahead of anything else in backline play and technically the functions were roughly as follows:-

*    Kicking away balls   -    statistically at least 66% of all balls - scrummie and flyhalf

*    Crashballing            -    statistically circa 25% mainly by inside center and loosies

*    Attacking options    -     statistically circa 9%

In more than 90% of the cases te opposition knows exactly what to expect - and take defending measures accordingly.  Result - the Springbok backline is only decorative and there for defence.  I call that dead backline syndrome - a really disastrous syndrome since even the NH teams have left that one at least 4 years ago. 

However, to get back to the Lambie issue - Lambie did not comply with Meyer's kicking requirements and used other options more than he should in accordance with Meyer's game plan - hence his comments om Lambie's kicking game.   However, the comments of Meyer before the Twickenham test were much more revealing and showed clearly what the instructions were in the two earlier tests.

Lambie is no fool - he knows exactly that Meyer's preferred flyhalf all along  was Morne Steyn.   The onlly reason he left out Morne was the goal kicking problems he had last year.   This is apparently gone - although away from Loftus there are still signs that there may be some problems.  The only way he can keep being in the run for Springbok selection is to match Meyer's kicking style and try and keep on par with the goal kicking - but unless Morne Steyn buggers up in the remaining Super 15 games - he is back as Springbok flyhalf and Lambie is history.  Plumtree can preach the opposite till he is white in his face - Lambie will try and emulate the Meyer plan in his Super 15 games.

I have been thinking about the other component of Meyer's weird selection of Kirchner as the only full back  in his squad of 22.   Kirchner is probably the worst ful back in Super 15 this year - his defence borders on the  non-existent - but Kirchner is relatively good under high balls kicked by the opposition.   In the event of the kicking away of balls by the SA scrummie and flyhalf - opposing teams may launch strategic high kicks themselves and Kirchner is good for that - his cattching record is about secure 60% catches  

We may shout and scream as much as we like - Meyer's approach reigns supreme.   Is it detrimental to SA Rugby - it definitely is and will cost us dearly.      

 


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 613
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 10:30:25

 

Sas and Beeno I accept your opinions but what I was really trying to challenge is an inherent mindset that exists today one being the size of the players and the lack of individuality/creativeness that appears today.
I was having a chat and a quiet frostie with a school coach after the Kearsney Easter Schools Rugby Tournament and he raised this point of the lack of creatively and mindsets that still are common in our country today...it starts at school level. He has been around a long time and has come this conclusion that this is often a problem...he mentioned the important aspect of the psychology (mind over matter aspect) of the game being a very powerful weapon in rugby and sport in general and the power of tutoring and mentoring youngsters. Coaches can make or break players.
He states that coaching styles are too stereotyped and readable...a lot of talent has been badly coached and this results in not recognising qualities and individual brilliance...players frustrated and move overseas. Do not want to go down this road as it is a long one.
Beeno saying Daniels is a scrum scrumhalf (in jest I hope) is really doff.
Most of you guys are too young and will not remember the loosies of Bedford,Ellis,Greyling and Frik Du Preez when he was not playing lock. Nevertheless they were legends...incidentally Tommy Bedford was as light as a feather but he was brilliant at the breakdown and cover defence and the great Du Preez rates him as one of the best.
Admittedly the rules and the game have become more complicated since then but the same principle remains. Incidentally Tommy was a number eight too.
 
 


clevermike

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Posts: 10305
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 10:36:26

Beeno

There is one thing Meyer places above everyting else and it is clear again from the training squad - if you do not have a Bulls contract - you can be 20% better than the corresponding Bulls player - but the Bulls player will always gets the nod.

The second thing is that Meyer does not rate attacking backline players - hence his dislike of players like Le Roux - they have no place in his game plan.  

The thrd thing is that I fear for the future of Serfontein.   Meyer is bound to change - like he did in the case of Lambie as a Morne Steyn clone - this promising youngster into a Francois Steyn clone.

YOU MAY AS WELL ACCEPT IT - BAR THE THREE WEAK TEAMS WE ARE PLAYING IN JUNE AND THE TEAMS IN THE EOYT, WE MAY ONLY BEAT ARGENTINA AT HOME IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND LOSE ALL OTHE TESTS THIS YEAR.   AT BEST SEVEN WINS AND FIVE LOSSES ARE ON THE CARDS WITH MEYER IN CHARGE - THEIR MIGHT ALSO BE A LOSSS ON THE EOYT THAT MAKES THE WIN--LOSS RATION 50% - DOWN FROM 57% THIS YEAR.

I put the aboe in capital letters so you can remember it.   Meyer is a recipe for diaster in SA Rugby.  

 

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 11:44:50

THE MEYER REGIME WILL LEAD THE BOKS TO NOWHERE AND THIS YEAR WILL BE THE WATERSHED YEAR THAT ALL THOSE WEIGHT SIZE OBSESSED PLONKERS WILL SEE THAT THE OBSESSION WITH A FORWARDS OBSESSED GAME PLAN WILL ONLY TO LEAD TO NOWHERE MARK MY WORDS.

 

beeno ? brussouw outclassed by fourie and louw hahahahahahahahaha

 

who was benched when brussouw played in the boks under pdv ? burger and louw. that was the main reason why louw left SA. he has not loyality liks much of the current crop of stormers. brussouw on his day is the best open sider on the planet.  beenos findingy nemo attention span strikes again. your a smart bloke beeno but you really should research your statements.

 

serfontein is a great talent but he will be brainwashed into the meyer way of overcoaching and i bet you 50 bucks he will be destroyed by meyer. i hope meyer cocks up this year and we can usher in a new coach with more nouse and more modern way of playing rugby. cant think of anyone better than plums

 

mikes words will come true meyer is a disaster

 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 11:56:25

Ou Mike is battling with the stats again. You still have not listened to the advice from the good doctor, or you have forgotten it again. Where do you get those kicking stats from, or how did you calculate them? I have done a quick spreadsheet. I only used the Rugby Championship, and will do one for the England tour as well as for the EOYT at some stage. These are the figures for the RC.

 

The total kick/pass/run figures by the Springboks for the entire RC is 160/628/488. In other words, the ball was received/handled 1,276 times and it was kicked 160 times. Now, if you do the calculation, you will note that only 12.54% of balls received were kicked.

 

Now, if you only take the kicks by the halfbacks into accoungt, you will get an even bigger surprise. The halfbacks kicked 107 kicks, and just to baffle you even more, the scrumalves kicked the ball 5 more times than the flyhalves. Flyhalves 51 times. Scrumhalves 56. The halfbacks kicked only 8.39% of the total number of bals that was received.

 

If you now compare the number of kicks by the Springboks with that of the opposition, then guess what?

In the games between SA and NZ, the kicking tally was SA-46, NZ-59. For SA v Aus, it was SA - 56, Aus 61. For SA v Arg, it was SA-58, Arg-59

 

You have the cat by the balls when it comes to your analysis of the SA kicking game, my friend.

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 12:18:31

if yoou want to reside stats again when do you have the numbers of the amount of ball handled by forwards when those ball was handled option taking when the boks had the ball ext ext ? the AB does kick more than others but there option taking and when there game pattern is alot better. its not just numbers you need to use the ball. forwards hanlded the ball a lot more than the backs the generall speed and quality of the ball was rubbish. the boks recyclying speed of the ball was rubbish so to setup 10 phases but not going anyware will reflect great on your stats but in real rugby terms means boggerol. the meyer boks plays slowly without speed and is generally does not create that kind of ruck speed.

 

the boks generally kick more meaningless balls and more unaccurately. does your stats also show the amount of balls kicked when it was to far away for the boks followup runners ext ext ?

 

stats if not taken into contexted of the flow of the game and on field situations means nothing. its only used to warp reality and to showcase a different story all together.

 

the meyer game plan is ineffective that is the message i think mike is tryinig to convey and i agree with him. watch the game look at the field positions and then have a look for yourself to all the stats and see how those factors intertwine with each one. carter never kicks a ball to far or too close, the chasers come in a line ext ext. that is how more effective the other teams are. the stats does not show how many meters was gained on morne in his channel on defence. how the lack of support play for the backs on attack. how many times the backline players was caught on defence with the option to create space ext ext....

 

stats are stats but it does not show you the true picture of how teams or players play remember that

 


Beeno1

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Posts: 8968
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 12:38:49

Ou maaaikie I am surprised that ou think Gooen is not an attacking flyhalf or that abana and Jp are not attacking wings. Hougi ei san attacking scrummie and Lambie cn run the ball

No Meyer picks attacking players bt the backlinecoach fails to put it together. Meyer must get in  a roper backline coach and do it now.

If on e looks at last year and takes into account the circumstances Meye's first year as a coach was pretty good. However he has to kick on from that. Now ou maaaikie, the arch doomsayer, is predicting all sorts of disasters for the Boks as the vitalis takes hold! 

Ou mucher is reaching for the dictionary to look up the word circumstance and Seb clings to his erroneous belief that Daniel  is an international class loosie!!! Ou windpomp is actually making more sense than these worthies! We have thus reached an all time low! LOL


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 12:42:15

CM, with all due respect, I have no clue what you are trying to say with: "if yoou want to reside stats again when do you have the numbers of the amount of ball handled by forwards when those ball was handled option taking when the boks had the ball ext ext ?"

 

I do not have the full stats, unfortunately. I have given a length explanation about the stats that is available and in the open, and what it would take to get hold of the detailed stats. It would cost in the region of £12,000 pa. I have made the best of what is available. What I was trying to point out is that Mike made a statement using, what I can only see as, stats taken from the air. The only figures that do come close to the 66% that he as quoted as statistical facts, was this. The halfbacks kicked around 66% of the total number of kicks in the game. I.e. they are responsible for the most of the kicks, but then again, that is more or less the norm in almost any game of rugby. The halfbacks do most of the kicking.

 

You are 100% correct that stats alone is not the be-all and end-all. I have said it many times but there is a tendency by many people, not only Mike, to use stats selectively when and where it suits them.

 

What exactly is the so-called Meyer plan? If it is, like so many people like to believe, that we are mostly relying on kicking the ball, then he is failing miserably, because we are kicking the flippin thing less than most other teams. If it is to make all the Bulls Springboks, then he is also failing miserably, because since hthe first team that he has selected, the number of Bulls players have gone down from 7 in the first test against England to 4 in the last test in 2012. In fact, in the last RC test in Soweto, there were only two Bulls players in the team.


Beeno1

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Posts: 8968
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 12:57:21

ou maaaikie and the muncher please pay close attention to windpomps rather long winded explanation but which is rather convincing nevertheless.

What is getting you on the wrong track (ie we kick to much under Meyer) is the lack of creativity in the backline. Hence you look for reasons and come up with the wrong ones (Hahahahhahahaha).

Poor execution of tactical kicks and poor follow up can make a kick look like a bad option. There would howeve be a lot less discontent if we used our good ball more effectively.

 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 13:03:43

"There would howeve be a lot less discontent if we used our good ball more effectively."

 

Exactly, the issue was never at the halfbacks alone, because after they were changed it was more or less same old, same old. Ou Maaikie famously blamed the Dunedin loss on Morne Steyn and tried to explain how Goosen made a difference when he came on. LOL. The one game that we ran wild was in the home test against a badly depleted Aussie team who, on top of everything, played with fourteen men for twenty minutes of the game in addition to having the one injury after the other before and during the game.

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8968
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 13:06:22

Muncher please. louw was the best 6 in world rugby last year. hei smiles ahead o fbrussouw.

If you are looking for a smaller 6 who is faster look no further than Deon Fourie. He is a lot quicker than brussouw. Drives the ball up better. Looks more solid over the ball and in fact one battles to see one area in which Brussouw is better. Fourie at 6 for the Boks would by now be a legend. Unfortunately it took yonks fo some "observers" to even realise he could play flank! They spoke of him as a retreaded hooker when he as playing brilliant rugby at 6.

Beeno of course noted very early on how incredibly well he was playing. Then Deon was named Currie Cup player of the year playing at 6 and some folk snapped out of their deep sleep!

muncher please - brussouw still needs to up his game. What did h eachieve agains tte Stormers - zip. If h ecsan twin turnover ball and makes little impression in driving the ball up why is he so great? His tackling is okay but hardly bone jarring. Where does he excell?

What is most unfortunate is that Tiaan has been injured and even when he gets back ou alistair will continue with Kolisi who right now is not in the same class as Deon as a 6. But all very typical SA blundering.


sebastienchabal

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 613
RE: The cloned mindset of Saffa coaches, ie Labuschagne and Daniels left out???
April 10, 2013, 13:57:46

Beeno I've always tried to respect everybody on this forum...even though I do not agree with them...even Saffex who is sometimes a delight to tease but I actually do respect some of his views...even old Maaik...he is always witty and a gentleman although he is stat orientated and this can be misleading. Mozart too is a screen at times but he should have stuck to music as in this he is a legend.

I' certainly do not see myself as an expert...indeed far from it but I've been around for some time and had learnt that this game is not as simple as paper and stats tell us. Predictions by experts tend to go pear-shaped especially in grandslams.

Also Beeno whether you believe Keegan Daniels is limited to only Currie Cup and S15 level or not...I have eyes and memory too and that my eyes might sometimes be that of an elephant my memory is that of this creature too (and I am not referring to Saffex's elelphant and onions). It was only last year at the semi final when Keegan's team came from down under to clap Jean De Villiers team after jet lag...I remember poor old Jean lying exhausted on the field after the final whistle and Keegan coming up to him as a gentleman in battle to console his Springbok team mate and captain. I really do not think that JDV thinks the same way as you do about Keegan Daniels. I see him as a very effective loosie and so do many others from both the Weeping Province and the land of bananas and haaie.

Weight obviously in the right context does have merit but it is not the priority when more important talents exist....8 kgs difference under is better 8kgs plus over in the case of FS (lol).

Meyer, I respect but it is the same strategies that lead to nowhere....creativity,innovation,strategy wins wars whether on the field or in battle. Stereotype and monotinous and readable game plans don't...learn from the Les Bleus flair that often flumoxes the AB's at the most important times and the AB's that are the most balanced in creativity and the set game.

We need clever coaches, that have the courage to venture. Success always favours the bold.


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