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Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1950
FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 00:53:56

 Where do we play this guy now? He did not look good again today at fullback. Caught out of position a few times (At 1 point Keegan Daniel could be seen giving Fransie a tongue lashing when he failed to get to a Crusaders punt that failed to find touch and Keegan had to get back to save the day) but I think mainly because he is too slow to react and grossly unfit.

 

He turned the ball over repeatedly due to trying to make offloads in ridiculous situations and going into contact far too upright.

He was seconds from being replaced by Riaan Viljoen in the 65th min but he may have been needed for his boot.

 

Not convinced. My thoughts are that Frans needs time away from the game altogether. He needs to get his mind, body and everything else right and find his passion for the game again. Its a matter of time before he costs the Sharks a game. Luckily today the Crusaders kick chasers were slightly off the boil. Had their wingers had the desire of JP today, Fransie may have been a villian!

 

COME ON Fransie!! Wat gaan aan!!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 01:07:46

Come now boklogic - you are totally wrong.  Mozart said he was ok - but then Mozart wants him at full back so that is why he was OK.  

I don't like what I saw of him today.  He was as you rightly pointed out - constantly out of position and that ineffective high tackle straight in front of the posts was an emnbarrasment that could have costed the Sharks the game.

When he ran up to the gain line he was easy to tackle and his game as such was not really accpetable and effectively crashballing.  I think that Lu[removed] was in fact missed in the game..

But both Moxzart and [removed] will say he was the best backline player of the Sharks so we will get the vitriol all over us about that one.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1950
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 01:27:43

For sure. Moz and [removed] may have a different opinion on the matter from me but I am not convinced about Steyn's ability anymore.

 

It makes me sad because I so badly want him to be good and he looks like a man that is really struggling. I think he is trying hard but it just aint happening for him. He is an easy take down in the tackle situation and loses the ball way too much. He is not great on the crash as he is too slow. Take Fruean for example. Big, strong but more importantly, fast! Steyn is just too slow. In all aspects of the game. Slow to react, slow to get to the ball, slow in his decision making. 

 

He needs a break and he needs to figure out what he wants to do.Its gona take hard work for him to get back to where he was but he needs to be honest with himself nad identify that there is a problem that he needs to address and work it out!


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8437
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 02:05:48

We "will get the vitoll" all over us. Hell Mike have you been drinking the Vitalis again? Hahahaha!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 07:43:30

Mozart

As per normal you folowed up on a typing error made by me and you have NO RESPONSE on the actual performance by Steyn at full back.   Since you always wants facts to match your biased theories - let me wuote here what you wrote about Steyn elsewhere:-

"Bosman was also very effective....Fransie better, but erratic, Reinach solid  and Lambie guaranteed money."

The question is better in what?   You obviously made a fool of yourself as to making statements all over this site on your interpretations of the game - so lets not go on in that one.

In case you missed the stats and as per normal do not to use it in this case  - here is Steyn's stats for the game"-

FB Steyn 0/0 0 5/4/8 47 0 1 1 2 3/1 0/0 1 0/0

Please confirm what you said Seyn did better so that we can laugh at that comedy version again.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 09:20:51

 Frans at times looked a little better trying at least to get involved but Boklogic is correct in that he needs to do the hard work to get back to previous form -and as was said he needs to decide if he wants to still play rugby - this echoes what I said a while back .

Ou maaaikie thinks he is a rugby genius in spotting Frans is out of sorts and writing off this once great player.

No getting nasty with those wishing Frans would recover Mike. 

But the sad truth is Viljoen would probably have been better for the shark on Saturday

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 09:43:30

Beeno

There is nobody who wants to see some return of form in the case of Steyn more than I do.  He was not up to standard at center - [removed] will have a seizure - because of that statement - and he was not really good enough last night as a full back.

I think that if he can recover some of his form - we desperately need a proper full back for the future.   At this stage Steyn looked too slow to be a full back - and to my mind he was not fast enough to cover kicks and was often out of position.   I am critical at this stage - but I believe my criticism is justified.

Hope he recovers his form - for we need him badly at full back


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 21:26:30

Mozart

We are down to Le Roux as to potential full backs now.   Defiiitely not Steyn - if his performance on Friday is anything to go by.  His lack of ball sense and his deficient speed definitely rules him out - unless he makes a major improvement in fitness and speed.  That is physically possible - but his reading of the game is really deficient - and that is a much harder thing to overcome.

The only other playershowing some class is young Visser of the Bulls.  Have a good look at him over the next few weeks and tell me what you think sbout him.

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 23:26:11

 I had no issue with Frans's performance at 15, but as I have said all along, I would not play him at 15, he is not quick enough for fullback.

 

Frans should be returned to 12 once he is fit. He looked unfit on Friday evening. But saying that, I would rather play Frans at 12 than the bog ordinary Bosman who once again added no value at 12.

 

Get Frans back at 12 where he belongs


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8437
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 06, 2013, 23:48:05

FB O'Connor 0/1 10 6/14/8 23 0 0 1 1 7/1 1/0 0 0/0

 

FB Steyn 0/0 0 5/4/8 47 0 1 1 2 3/1 0/0 1 0/0

 

I provide O Connor's stats and Fransie's stats for reference. Same number of runs, but Fransie was much more productive. O Connor kicked a lot more, had higher tackling stats...also offloaded once. I'd say Fransie's stats were a bit better.... l guess that means O connor can no longer play 15 Mike.

 

I think he is showing some good signs. He lost the ball a few times in contact trying to offload....he needs to forget the journalism and not push the offloads.

 

This guy remains our best shot at a game winning fullback. He has proven that in the past...lets not give up after 2 games.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 02:58:23

Mozart

OK to use stats when it fits your argument?   Very selectiive of you to use stats when it fits your argument.

I believe that Steyn actually was as [removed] said too slow to be an effective full back and before he really can be considered in that position - or for that matter in any position - it is necessary to get matchfit and get his speed back.  

At this stage his speed is less than that of a slow lock forward and that is not accptable - either at 15 or 12.   I think that he in fact had a poor game at 15 - as poor as he was when Plumtree decided to move him away from no 12.  

He has a lot to do before he can make the grade really as a full back and I think that it is very likely that in the next game Viljoen will start at full back ahead of Steyn.  


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 03:13:10

[removed]

After the removal of Steyn at 12 - the Sharks backline at last showed some signs of life and especially Pietersen saw some balls.   The real problem all along in the backline was Steyn and it is very likely that Plumtree will not take another chance and start with him at 15 again.   With a bit of luck he may be on the bench for the next game of the Sharks - but that is stretching it too.

In your own words "He looked unfit on Friday evening"  and he is too slow to be a 15,   So an unfit and slow player is ok at 12?    An unfit and slow player should not be anywhere near a team at all - leave alone at Super 15 level.   At 12 Steyn was so slow in getting off the mark that the whole backline was neutralized and thrown out of gear.   He was not even slow in speed - he was slow in whatever else he was doing.  That included passing of the ball as well.

Maybe he could get back into being fit - but not before he regains some speed.   You cannot play at 12 a center without speed - you might as well move a lock into that position then.

 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3606
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 03:24:27

 Fat Steyn no longer has a step and his distribtions skills are average since the weight gain


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 14:18:41

DomMike, stop speaking crap....the Sharks backline has been no better at all, in fact it is worse than it was. Bosman does nothing at 12, is a complete passenger and Jordaan has now been exposed for being too small.

 

The Sharks need to change their centres. Frans at 12 with JP at 13.....move small Jordaan to wing where his defensive frailties will not be as exposed


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 15:45:38

[removed]

Crap - a slow backline player is useless to a team - whether at 12 or anywhere on the field.   You are a real deadhead when is comes to game interpretation - but yuou never saw that although in traffic Jordaan missed a tackle on Fruean he never missed any further tackles - but beat Freuan twice in backline moves.   And you never saw that the Sharks backline on Friday did function 6 times better than it ever did while Steyn was at 12.  Did you notice that Pieterse got the ball more frequently and could play better than before?

Obviously noted nothing at all covering the whole game - especially not the fact that Jordan actually had a better all round game than Freuan.

But [removed] knows about rugby as much as the stuff you get rid of in a lavatory - so dont expect any logic from him.  HELL - DEAD SLOW CENTER WITH NO CONTRIBUTION TO BACKLINE PLAY - WHY NOT PUT MARCELL COETZEE OR LABUSCHAGNE THERE - THEY HAVE MORE SPEED THAN STEYN  ?

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 16:17:15

Look LiarMike, we already know you are a liar, but there is no need to continue lying it just makes you look more of a [removed] than you already are. Frans is not slow, never has been never will be. My call is that a 15 should be as fast as a wing, that's why I would not play Frans at 15 - get it you thick twit?

 

That does not mean Frans is slow, it means he does not have the pace of a wing. Frans has more than enough pace for 12 - FACT

 

Yes Frans is unfit, we can see that. But I would rather have an unfit Frans in my side than the useless Bosman.

 

As for JP getting the ball more, that had stuff all to do with ball down the line you stupid fool. It meant JP at last went looking for work and hence the improvement - wake up LiarMike

 

As for Jordaan having a better alround game than Freuan - [removed] me I knew you were rugby ignorant, but this really takes the cake......Jordaan was Freuan's bunny. There was a reason the TV coverage had a tribute to Freuan's contribution, he made Jordaan look like a school kid. I had high hopes for Jordaan - he has been average all season and on Friday, Freuan confirmed that Jordaan cannot live with the big boys and will never play at 13 for the Boks. Freuan ran over him and handed him off like he was not there. It was embarassing.

 

As for backline non contributor - look no further then useless Bosman


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 17:49:53

[removed]

I frankly do not understand your logic.  On the one hand you say Steyn is not fit and his speed is insufficient to play at.   You then go on and say he should in his present conduition play at center for the Sharks.   How does that add up?   

I had a look at Steyns performances in the games he played for thus far in Super 15 and it does not make pretty reading at all - he was poor in all aspects of the game.   Insofar as those aspects are  concerned - let me get away from hype and look at what he produced on the field of play:-

Activities                          Cheetahs   Stormers   Kings     Brumbies    Crusaders

Go forward with Balls                5                 3             4                2                    4

Turnovers in possession            -                 -              1                -                     -

Tackles                                      4                5              2               10                   -

Penalties given away                 1                -               -                 -                    1

Lost Possession                        1                2              -                  1                    1

The above means that in all  5 games he played in at least 60 minutes he did the following on the field of play:-

Go forward in carrying balls     =     18 times 

Tunrover in possession             =       1

Tackles made                          =      21

Pemalties Given away             =        2

Lost Possession                      =        5

To illustrate it further - in the lesser game time De Allende had compared to Steyn the info is as foolows:-

Line Breaks                                   =     3

Go forward in carrying balls          =    24 times

Tunrove in possession                 =       1

Tackles made                               =     17

Pemalties Given away                  =      1

Lost Possession                            =     2

All in all De Allende had about  3 full games game time and Steyn   4,5 games

What makes me wonder is why is Steyn the miracle 12 of South Africa?   The wonderful things he does is not reflected in the above information.    In fact the information indicates that he is exceptionally poor if compared to other centers in the various conferences.   Why if he under-performs do you constantly mention him as the pillar of Sa no 12 center players.

You can shout as much as you like about the issue that stats does not show context - but the above showed clearly the number of times he carried balls, the number of tackles he made per game - the number of times he gave away penalties - the number of times he lost possession of the ball.   It also showed that in all the games he played in he did not make a single line break.   You said such breaks are nowadays  very difficult to make (and I do accept  that)  -  but De Allende managed to make three  such breaks and Steyn never made one.

I myself is very critical of Steyn at present - he really does not produce the goods at all - and there is nobody who hopes more that he  gets back on track than me.   There was no sign of it on Friday - he was constantly hopelessly out of position and did nothing in the field of defence.  If he continues in the present vein I am not changing my views on him - - namely that he is not a good enough player to play on Super 15 level - not even on reputation.

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 18:07:49

Man its tiresome dealing with someone so stupid. I said Frans was not fast enough for 15 for I am of the opinion a 15 should have the out and out pace of a wing like Dagg, Mogg, Halfpenny, Brown, Foden and Hogg do. Frans  has good pace but not the pace of a wing, get it dumbass?

 

Frans has more than enough pace for a 12. Yes he is unfit, but I would rather have an unfit Frans at 12 than the useless Bosman there for the Sharks. Frans can get fit in training and playing 12 for the Sharks.

 

There is no way in hell I would select the ineffective Bosman at 12, the guy is a pretender and adds no attacking value at all.

 

Your stats are a load of [removed]. Frans was good in his first two S15 outings. He was the best SA 12 in those two matches and selected as such by those in the know.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 20:11:23

[removed] knows evrything - all the experts in the worldsd knows nothing.   The coaches knows nothing.  The stats are [removed].   All is stupid - they do not understand rugby. They do not uinderstand when he player is really performing.   [removed] is correct - he wants to play an unfit player - beecause he does not like the fit one.

You as per normal missed half of the game on Friday - want to shout about the other half.  You did not see that the backline of the Sharks functioned better than in any of the previous matches - now did you"  Ok - I am wrong again - you did not want to see it so that you can deny that it actually happened.

What a load of utter bull[removed].

About Jordaan - it is not only I who rate his performance higher than the one of Fruean.  Both Foxport and Test Rugby do so as well.   I know - that is based on stats and [removed] dooes not believe in stats.   He never saw who contributed to two penalties won by the Sharks and converted by Lambie.   O - [removed] it was Jordaan - but  [removed] did not want to see it - so it did not happen. 

No sane person can discuss anything logical with you.   What he can do is laugh at the drivel that comes through regularly and that is what I do.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 22:17:17

 Two things are certain. Firstly Frans is not up to playing either 12 or 15 for the sharks right now. Secondly he needs to consider whether he wants to continue playing the game. 

Until he gets fit and his mind is right  he should not play for the sharks - end of story. Talk now of whether he should play 12 or 15 is waste of time. Why cant Plum whip the guy into shape?


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 22:53:04

LiarMike, stop speaking [removed] again. Which experts or coaches have said anything about Frans's play recently? Not a single one has been as stupid as you or Beenkop saying Frans should not be playing - what a pathetic ignorant thing to say. But given the source its understandable.

 

As for the Sharks backline performing better, what utter bulkl[removed]. But best of all anyone who maintains that Jordaan was better than Fruean is a bloody idiot. That would have to be the most naive rugby comment I have ever read.

 

Foxsport whoever they are, are clearly a bunch of ignorant idiots who take after you with their take on rugby. Fruean embarassed Jordaan in a big way - FACT


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3606
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 23:51:19

 Fat Steyn was dropped for the Rebels game, and he would have only been on the bench against the Crusaders if Lu[removed] was not injured. Plumtree has stated that Frans Steyn would not be playing due to him requiring a conditioning program


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 23:56:33

 What rubbish, Plum never said Frans would not be playing. He did say he would be doing conditioning work and that he may be considered for fullback if Ludik was injured. Frans played off the bench the next game, then started at 15 as Ludik was injured.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3606
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 07, 2013, 23:58:39

 you fool, how much conditioning can a player do in one week? 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 00:07:01

 Who said it was one weeks worth you idiot. Do you think that by doing conditioning work, you cant play huh?


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3606
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 00:28:23

 when Steyn was dropped- Plumtree said that it was because he needed conditioning. He is currently not a first choice player. It is reported that Plumtree even said that in the future(when not Fat) he would considered at fullback not center. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 01:26:37

Sharkbok

I have accepted that whatever drivel Saffez write about players cannot be taken seriously and is for comic relief only.   Nobody in the world will accept his pearls of wisdom for reality.   I merely egg him on - but in most cases I can write in advance what the response would be,  so even that becomes boring after a while.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 08:33:28

heinken meyer destroyed franna steyn at 12 with his narrow minded nazi style coaching methods.

 

to be fair franna is way to big to play at 15. 15 is a spesfic position and needs a lot of time and practice to master. moving from the midfield that franna has been playing in for the past 4 years is not a easy move and those that are obsessed with franna playing at 15 dont really take into account the skills that he did have. with his boot and vision you should really move him as close to the attacking line as possible. i dont think franna's problem is skill but rather a combination of mental and condiioning. i dont think he knows what is expected of him and for this i lay the blame at the feet of the coaches and management. in terms of form he cant be the number one choice right now but HE IS NOT A 15 THAT FACT I AM SURE.

 

in terms of SA rugby we need him at 12 as there is a massive gaping hole of talent in SA. apart from jean de villiers that is about 30 odd we dont have the depth in talent to boast about. we need franna and jean to be playing center at performing at there peak.

 

in terms of full back the likes of ludik danieller and co is light years ahead of the rest.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 08:52:31

Muncher what are you smoking bud (rose)!

Narrow minded nazi coaching style re the coach who did so much for the bulle and went unbeaten in the overseas tour with a depleted and exhausted squad. A coach who had lost nemuerous senior players and but for a remarabl drop in form inMorne's goldn boot would have won the 4 nations and beat England in a est series etc.

You have the cheek to call this decent man a Nazi.

.

Disgusting stuff rom the muncher!!!!!!!!!! You're Nuts You SuckWhip

The sharks are the ones who ruined Frans as they did their utmost to bugger up Pienaar. Oh that these two payers had stayed in the Free State!! 

Frans though has to take some blame himself muncher. He ballooned out to 118 kgs!!! Man he is firstly responsble for that - for crying out aloud he is a professional sportsman!!!!!!!!!!!!

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 09:07:56

beeno have you been sniffing mums bath water again ? before jumping on your high horse beeno i said nazi style coaching never ever said meyer is a nazi....it might be a bit early in the morning hey beeno i know the rain outside here in cape town do effect certain people more than others it seems :P

 

almost winning the 4 nations ? depleted side ? that is a massive insult to those that have played during the comp and in the super rugby we had 3 sides in the play offs that shows we have the depth that other would crave. beeno please it seems like you have finding memo like attention spans have a look at the reruns on youtube to refresh the memory. a draw against a pumas side and other woefull performance now suddently you are singing meyers praises ? well if you support the rubbish that AC is dishing up at the stompies then i understand really.

do yourself a massive favour beeno can and watch a bok training day at any of the grounds and see how meyer coaches or at least practices. then you can see what i mean. i saw franna not pass the ball the whole day once as meyer was busy setting up this playbook for the match day. the type of thinking and coaching will destroy a players creativeness. if you also look at the backline players that came through the meyer era.. morne was a more open dymanic flyhalf and if you listen to what more and co said just recently one can see what meyers vision is and how he one track mindes players and colludes them into not playing the situation.

 

the likes of morne and meisiekind and zane was the product of the meyer era ? and they are the most open mind creative thinking backline players am i right hey beeno ? more du plessie campese dan carter eat your hart our the meyer brigade of gifted backline players are going to dethrone you off a place on the IRB all time great list hahahahaha


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 09:18:06

muncher you half wit. I have often referred to Coetzee as a quoto appointment and a flop a Bok backline coach. What dont you understand.

I am also dealing in facts. If Morne had kicked normally we would have won every test played bar 1. That isa fact.

Your trashing of Meyer is uncalled for. who can forgewt te bulle demolishing the Chiefs in that final and scoring a huge numbr of tries or thir thrashing the REds by a huge score.

Frans was shunted around and played every position in the sharks backline bar scrummie. He then got fed up and went to France where he loafed about. Look also at what the sharks did to the outstanding Kockett.

I will only grant you he has not picked the best defensive coach in the world, Nieaber, and got in a quota backline coach- I suspect under political pressure. Loubscher is not even the bulle Super 15 backline coach!

 

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 10:09:46

Boktwat, stop lying - do you really think a coach would be that stupid to say that Frans will only be considered at 15 - what a load of crap. He has never said that. Frans will return to 12 where he belongs as the Sharks cant continue with a plodder in Bosman at 12.

 

LiarMike, fresh coming from the idiot who tells us Jordaan was better than Robbie this weekend - that is the laugh of the year - you are an ignorant bafoon


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 11:40:58

Without regard to [removed]'s continuous drivel - there are some issues to be said about Francois  Steyn.  I watched him in games he played in France and must say he played the same style of rugby which he played for the Springboks last year and for the Sharks this year.  Physically he was much like he was in the tests last year and my guess is on his return from France - he was obviously overweight and slowed down.

There has been a notable change in NH rugby - and that is that the faster running game is much more in evidence than it used to be say 2 years ago.   One only have to watch the Toulon - Leicester game yesterday to realise that.   In France Steyn's style did not provide the answer anymore and it is doubtful if he received a good enough offer from his club to be retained.   However, the last is guessing - what is true is that he left France and came back to SA.

What was his physical condition like when he came back to SA.?  Again we can only guess - but it was evident that he was overweight and slow.  During the tests last year various posters made reference to him being overweight and slow  - I was not the only member who mentioned it.   I do not believe that he was less than 118 kgs last year in the tests as well.   I do not believe his weight gain took place during the period he was off due to injury at all - but do believe that Steyn was slow and overweight even before he was injured.  That brings me to the issue of his weight when he joined the Sharks in January this year.  Plumtree later confirmed that when he joind the Sharks in January 2013 - he weighed 118 kgs.   He was then put on a conditioning programme.

In early February I went to see the Sharks play in a match in Pietermaritzburg and seeing him from nearby he looked slimmer than he did in the tests last year and I said so loudly.   A bloke from one of the local rugby clubs sitting near me said he at the time weighed 115 kgs.   I expressed some doubt about it in the discussions  that followed and even said the ideal weight for an active sportsman like Steyn shoud be 105 - 106  kgs.   It s unlikely that he was much less than 114-115 kgs, when the Super 15 started 14 days later.

By the middle of March Steyn was down to 110 kgs and Plumtree emphasized that a month later his weight was down to 110 kgs.with the objectiv being to get him down to 105-106 kgs.  Together with that his speed had to be upped considerably.

I for one believe that -

*   his physical condition last year made it impossible for him to play a different playing style than he in fact did - he was too slow off the mark to have a positive impact on any potential backline attacking play; and

*   even though he was not the ideal inside center his performances was what was expected from the Bulls inside centers and fitted  into Meyer's requirements from an inside center.

A large proportion of balls were normally crashballed by the Bulls and the plan worked as long as there ws substantial forward dominance.  It did not work out well for the Springboks - since Steyn was more often than not caught behind the gainline as a result of the slow speed factor.   Mozart frequently mentioned the small  gain made by Steyn when going forward with the ball in hand and it was dismally low.   There was indeed the same tendency noticeble in his games for the Sharks this year.   He was slow off the mark and his physical condition had a serious impact in both his passing and kicking game.   His passing was slow and the recipients were often in a worst position than he was with defenders on top of them when they received the balls.   His relieving kicks was totally erratic and was really poor - there were to clear about it in the second test against the English and in the game against the Brumbies.

Be it as it may - the question is whether Meyer's  game plan was drilled into Steyn when he returned from France and was selected for the Springboks?   Personally I think there was no real pressure put on by Meyer to play the style of rugby that fits into the Bulls game plan - it was exactly like Steyn played in France on club level.   What was not clear is whether Meyer ever embarked on a conditioning programme insofar as Steyn is concerned.  

Was it acceptable to Plumtree - it obviously was not.   Even after the Cheetahs game - there were grumblings about the relatively poor performance of the Sharks backline comparative to last year.   After the second game against the Stormers - the public grumblings - not only on this Board - became more noticeable and Plumtree was asked abut it in an interview given by him.   He said there were indeed problems - giving no names - and said those problems are being attended to and they are moving to the stage of correcting them.  

The correcting was not in evidence in the game of the Kings and the outcome resulted in fierce criticism of the backline performance.   At that time it was clear that the problem centered around the performance of Steyn particularly - after he was subbed after about 60 minutes of play.  There were clear signs that the backline performances improved after his departure and there were a few encouraging runs by the wings and Jordaan in the last 20 minutes of the Bulls game.

After that game I openly said that I do not expect him to be selected at 12 for the Brumbies game - and the resultant outcry from certain quaters was unbelievable.   Steyn's performance in the Brumbies game was abysmal.  In the first 20 minutes he missed three  crucial tackles - two missed ones after a sequal of subsequent plays (with the Sharks defenders on the back foot) let to tries by the Brumbies.    A disastrous relieving kick went straight down the middle of the field of play - was gathered by Mogg and also let to a try being scored.   It all was too much for Plumtree to accept and he once again subbed him at minute 60.   In the last 20 minutes of the Brumbies game - the Sharks team played better and again the backline became more threatening.   At least the Sharks scored a converted try during that period.   However, it was whilst Steyn was on the field of play that a rare attacking move was made by the Sharks was the effective killing of the attack by Steyn by chip kickig the ball straight into Mogg's hands and the attack died as a result.   In one attacking move by Lambie he was caught in possession - because there was nobody to pass the ball to.  One would have expected  that Steyn at inside center would be on  his shoulder - but  he was not and I think it was largely due to the defective speed factor of Steyn.

The public outcry - not only by some membersof this site, but the public in general - became really problematic for Plumtree.  In a radio talk Plumtree was hammered on this issue and he had two choices and that were either not to confirm that something was wrong with Steyn and try and paper it over.  Plumtree knew what was going on and that he public was aware of the problem and then admitted that Steyn was problematic as a center.  He then went on and discussed the conditioning process aimed at helping Seyn to overcome his problems and said that some progress was made in respect of it - but that there need to be further progress.  He went on to say that he in future tends to use Steyn at full back - no mention made of the ultimate objective as to the usage of Steyn on successful completion of the conditioning process.    Steyn was consequently put on the bench for the Rebels game.   During the Rebels game it came out that Plumtree said to one of the commentators that he does not intend to use Steyn at 12 in future anymore and that is where the situation stands at present.

The Rebels game was a strange type of game.  Lambie and Bosman both found it more advantageous to pass balls back to the forwards who scored most of the ten tries scored or made the advances across the gain line and once the ball came out from resultant mauls - tries followed.  On the whole the outside backs was rarely used in that game. 

This was followed up by the game against the Crusaders - where Steyn was brought in at full back.  He really showed up badly in that game.  He was chronically out of position and made no catches of high balls kicked at the Sharks - he never made a single tackle and was nowhere near the field when the Crusader try was scored.    He obviously was very slow speedwise and there was  no indication that the conditioning programme started in January had any further positive results after the March statement by Plumtree.  The four times he got the ball - ran quite a distance and then was tackled in a vey upright position was seen by some people as effective - but was it really so since in the process he spilled the balls twice and the result was opposition scrums.

Be it as it may the question remains - how effective was the conditioning programme started in January?  At center Steyn was less obvious than at full back.   Being exposed to the camera more often at full back - it was very obvious that little progress was in fact made after the after the March statement of Plumtree and he was still slow and overwieght -  probably still around the 110 kgs mark mentioned by Plumtree three weeks ago.    Is he making progress and getting matchfit to function at full back in future?

Th quetion is now - with the Lu[removed] injury - what is Plumtree going to do as to the full back berth?   I think he is going to play Viljoen at fullb ack and with some luck Steyn may be on the bench.

Anothr interesting question is - how much info has been passed back to Meyer about the situation.  I doubt not that Plumtree fully briefed Meyer on the issue,  since the first tests to be played by the Springboks is only two motnhs away.  It would be interesting to know what Meyer is going to do about the situation.   My own guess is if Plumtree found usage of Steyn at 12 to be to the disadvantage of the Sharks team and stopped using him in that position - Meyer would not use him there at all.

I find it necessaary to give the above summary - most of which was actually based on public observation of the situation or on facts stated by Plumtree himself.  I quess that [removed] will have a seizure about the issue - but that would not in any way change or affect the real situation on the ground. 

 

      

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 11:52:43

DomMike, that is one big fat yawn. I see that on the Sharks fan site they say Plum has said Frans's future lies at centre - the debate is who will play 15 given Ludik is injured.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 12:17:53

[removed]

Interesting news from the fan site - however, that was not what is said by Plumtree in any stateent that is before the public.  I dount it very much if Plumtree would make a statement that he knew would be broadcasted on TV and contradict it even in private conversation.

However, the Sharks have a difficult game on Saturday and I guess the player at 15 would be Viljoen.   I do not think Plumtree will take another chance with Steyn in that position in such a critical game..

However, you made an interesting comment about Tyler elsewhere.   I hope he is brought into the team asap - would like to see how he shapes up on senior level. 

There are other factors about the Sharks - Stormers game as well.   Will Coetzee persist with Jantjies at flyhalf and De Jongh at outside center?   He will have to do soething drastic about that if the Stormers wish to win.   De Jongh did score two tries - but his defence was atrocious.    If I was Coetzee - I would move Pietersen to full back, bring in Howard at wing, Move De Villiers to 13 and play De Allende at 12.   Aplon on the other wing is OK.   I would definitely get rid of Jantjies - even Swiel would be better than him.   Groom should be acceptable at scrummie.

I said it elsewhere - I really feel bad about the Taute injury - he was on the road to become a good full back and now this.  What a disaster. 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 12:33:15

i think to be fair a drop from the team might get franna's mentality right. its tough to say what is going on with him but he needs to sit down with management and the coaches and there needs to be some clear directives from them on how they want franna to play. the bulldozer crap phase rugby is not the sharks way and plums needs to get that message across to franna.

 

franna does have that skill sets and the BMT to be among the best but he needs some time to deprogram and get his house in order. his weight is problems and needs some serious skill work as well. i will rahter work on his shortcomings than sit and critise. he can be right up there with the best but needs time.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 12:33:23

LiarMike, dont lie. Plum has said nothing in public about were Frans will play in the future


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 12:45:35

i might give franna one last shot at the stormers this weekend. the game might suite him at 12. bosman might struggle against JDV that in my view has his number on defence. franna will then just need to be notified that he is on thin ice and needs to make the step up.

 

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 12:46:02

[removed]

Sorry - no lie in this case.  One of the rugby commentators asked Plumtree what the future holds for Steyn and in response Plumtree said he is not going to use him at center in future - but at full back.   This statement was in fact made during the Rebels game - when Steyn came on after the injury to Lu[removed].   You may have missed it - but it was mentioned during comments.  Others heard it as well and mentioned it on this site.

As stated I do not think Plumtree would say that to a commentator as ahe new it would not be confintial and would be broadcasted.   

What about the rest of my comments - any repsonse on that? 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 12:56:53
Rubbish, the commentator was drawing his own conclusion based on the fact that Plum was playing Frans at 15 that game. Plum has never gone on record saying that Frans will only play 15 - do you really think an experienced coach like Plum would say something so stupid?

If that was the case then why would the Sharks supporters site mention that Plum has said Frans will play in the midfield


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 13:13:56

[removed]

Another far-fetched comment in direct opposite about what actually was said.   The commentator was very clear about what he asked Plumtree and what the comments of Plumtree were in response.  No deduction by the commentator at all in that case.   Plumtree is not stupid - he knew what he told the commentator would be broadcasted.

Often enough what is written on fan sites are guesses.  I would believe it if it is said in public by Plumtree  - or if Plumtree in fact select Steyn at 12 again.  Otherwise it may be wishful thinking by a Steyn loyalist - oneof th vry few remaining ones.

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9003
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 13:19:36

Bull[removed], I heard what the commentator said and you are wrong about the fan site, these guys work in partnership with the Sharks - they dont make things up.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12618
RE: FRANS STEYN @ 15??
April 08, 2013, 13:21:05

Carpetmuncher

I do not think Plumtree will play Steyn at center this coming week.   His defence against the Kings was non-existent and against the Brumbies disastrous.   The other negative is his fitness and lack of speed.   I think that  Plumtree wil have noticed any defnsive liability against De Villiers and take measures to ensure aganst it.  Dount very much if he would play an unfit  and slow player with serious defensive liabilities at this stage - it will be too expensive a problem.


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