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4087 Topic: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8233
Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 15, 2013, 15:37:48

The Rene Ranger try against the Bools showed, almost definitively, three defensive weaknesses which prevent Olivier, JJ and Kirchner from being international players.

 

First Olivier can't keep up as Saili goes for the outside gap. He manages to just cling on to the jersey while metres are made and the ball is flipped to Ranger.

 

Second, with this break, even though it is very lateral... JJ over runs the movement. This was much as he did with with Kolisi last year and leaves a barn door gap for Ranger to run through and he does unopposed.

 

Third, Ranger is away up the wing, but Kirchner has him trapped between the touchline and the pursuing Bools who are two  steps behind. But Kirchner hits him above waist level and Ranger runs right through his tackle, scoring a try a simple push into touch would have prevented. Again Kirchner's open field tackling is shockingly bad for a some time Bok fullback

 

I have written time and again about these very problems, it's odd to see all three in one movement.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5824
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 15, 2013, 16:11:28

@mozter,

"First Olivier can't keep up as Saili goes for the outside gap. He manages to just cling on to the jersey while metres are made and the ball is flipped to Ranger."
first of, i think we can all agree that given the talent rolling around in SA midfield, wynard oliviers days as a Bok are done and dusted.
secondly, i blame morne steyn for peter saili getting the better of olivier.
from the blues breakdown, the ball is passed to the blues first reciever mackenzie and morne rushes out of his line to cover mackenzie.
this leaves a huge gap between morne and olivier in the line and mackenzie quickly passes the ball to siali who runs in the direction of that gap left by morne, but then throws a dummy and takes of on oliviers outside.
had morne not rushed, olivier would not have been in two frames of mind he clearly was when the 105kg saili was given two options in which to attack olivier with.

"Second, with this break, even though it is very lateral... JJ over runs the movement. This was much as he did with with Kolisi last year and leaves a barn door gap for Ranger to run through and he does unopposed."
as saili was taking the pass from mackenzie, jj recognises that the blues have a 3-2 player advantage and ranger is standing pretty deep and jj makes the chocie of stepping in to mark ranger thanks to sailis dummy and saili slips in between jj and olivier to put jj behind on the backfoot.
i dont think jj was at fault at all, he was one of many victims in that pasage of play from morne rushing out of his line.

"Third, Ranger is away up the wing, but Kirchner has him trapped between the touchline and the pursuing Bools who are two  steps behind. But Kirchner hits him above waist level and Ranger runs right through his tackle, scoring a try a simple push into touch would have prevented. Again Kirchner's open field tackling is shockingly bad for a some time Bok fullback"
i agree with this one and not even krichner can blame morne, even if mrones defensive error was the biggest contributor to that attack.
krichner still should have had his man in that one on one situation, especially with the line so close, so a simple push would have sufficed.
in krichners case, hes not the first nor last to be bumped like that by ranger.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8233
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 15, 2013, 18:12:54

Well Sasu, "stepping in" is certainly the right prescription if an overlap is developing....something Taute failed to do at centre. But in this case "stepping in" to mark Ranger was the problem. ....you don't step in when your opponent doesn't have the ball and the player inside him is not contained.  And if you  "step in",  you have to anticipate the pass and smother the player. Not run past him. JJ was so keen to get at Ranger he misjudged the movement.

 

As for Wynand ....the initial problem may have occured with Morne, but Wynand was still struggling for pace. That's who he is, a solid player who was always vulnerable to fast lateral movement. The point is not so much that he isn't a Bok candidate now, it's that he should never have been a Bok candidate.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12433
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 10:08:15

Mozart

One question to you - can Engelbrrecht defend at all?  Fruen ran around him like he was not on the field.  And this is the guy punted by [removed] - the poorest of player judges ever.

 


nero

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 34
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 10:20:46

At least Mike the Kakhuis King will have something to write about for the next two weeks. I suspect about 4 to five essays per day about the useless Bulls and all their countless deficiencies.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11515
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 13:32:08

 Fruen should be the ab center instead of the carthose wee conrad but they are too dumb to see it. Fuean has bearten many centers at some point.

Ou maaaaaaik how many tackles did JJ make. He is coming along.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8810
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 13:55:59

Sas you are spot on with regards to JJ and the passage of play Moz refers to - Moz has it completely wrong. Olivier, who has no question marks against his defence generally was at fault there, he did not commit to the Blues 12 and had JJ in two minds.

 

Mike stop speaking complete crap JJ tackled well all night thats all the lad could do given the Bulls had no ball. JJ was stuck on the wing when Fruen beat him and Fruen did well to flat foot him, it was well executed. It happens you ignorant twit, just like Brussouw missing a tackle to let in a try, just like Morne missed a tackle to let in a try.

 

Just becasue JJ got flat footed once, you now conclude he is poor - you are a bloody idiot


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12433
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 14:53:33

[removed]

Believe me - he is flat-footed far too often.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8810
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 15:07:04

Mike you are lying he defended well all game as did Olivier - neither had any opportunities on attack. When JJ was at 13 Fruen was a mess


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12433
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 15:12:25

[removed]

Bad hey - to defend the indefensible.  One has to admire the way you do it though.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8233
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 15:17:23

Dave JJ was 10 metres behind Ranger .......how the hell can you be 10 metres behind your opponent? Especially considering the Saili break was lateral rather than straight. It was a very poor piece of centre play. A bit earlier Ranger lowered JJ's sails and then stripped him of the ball. Ranger dominated JJ....just another reason this guy should be nowhere near the Bok team.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8810
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 15:20:49

Nope, I am stating the facts, be my guest and point out JJ missing a one on one tackle in structured backline play wjile playing at 13. He had a good game defensively apart from Fruen flat footing him and beating him on the outside when JJ was on the wing.

 

You are just a pathetic liar, who carries childish prejudices against players like Frans and JJ - FACT. Your anti these two players is pathetic but at the same time exposes your ignorance.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12433
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 16, 2013, 16:37:31

[removed]

Ignorance is bliss - that is why you are such a happy chappy.  You believe in mirages and then built up a wonderful explanation of how good the players are that you support.   Even an ordinary tackle is built up into a wonderful achievement and even a constant crashballing becomes heroic carrying of balls.

No wonder most of  the player you so loyally support are at best average and in many ways poor when judged objectively.  


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5824
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 17, 2013, 11:49:23

@mozter,

bro u need to get ur facts straight. 10 meters behind rnager, WTF??? o_O

he was on line with ranger when ranger got the ball, but ranger hit that ball at full speed, while jj was forced to turn around in a stop start situation.
ranger ended making huge distance on jj cos charles piutau, one of three backs running full speed in support, did the smart option and ran in front of jj efectively legally sheperding him out of any more defensive contention.

morne styen is the real culrpit of that ranger try. his running out of the line put two HUGE spaces on both sides of olivier who was forced to stop.

this in turn made saili run to oliviers right where olivier struggled to contain him, but he did force saili to pass.

even though saili passed the ball to ranger jj was then left all by him self to defned against rene ranger, charles piutau and frank halai, three of the quickest players on the field.

WTH was jj supposed to do??? morne was to blame, he was the one who left both jj and olivier to mark the blues 12, 13, 14, 15 and olivier didnt help the cause by barely containing saili.

jj did nothing wrong in that phase of play one bit. mornes error, plus quick ball, plus great blues support all snowballed into an avalanche the bulls couldnt contain.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8233
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 17, 2013, 18:27:10

Have to disagree....and I reproduce the try to show you what I mean.

 

Firstly the commentator says Morne has jumped out of the line. That's nonsense. The line from Morne to JJ is almost dead straight. The issue is Olivier is well back of the line of defence....and obviously the intent is for your line to be as far forward as possible. It's the outside players responsibility to align with the inside player....not vice versa.

 

The biggest offender is Olivier, who lags Morne by 5 steps and then can't close down Saili.

 

JJ, however, has to be aware of what's happening inside him. Again... it's the outside defender's responsibilty to align and respond to the inside defender and try to align with the defender inside him.

 

He doesn't. He advances well forward of Olivier and actually continues moving forward as Saili is already rounding Olivier. Then he freezes for a second. By the time he reacts Ranger is past him and gone.

 

If you define your defensive responsibilities as simply running up on your opponent...he was fine. If you want some intelligence in your defending, he was sorely lacking.

 

My take is Morne did nothing wrong. Olivier was woefully slow in coming up and woefully slow in cutting off Saili. And JJ was robotic in his defence, not adjusting for the poor cir[removed]stances inside him.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGI20-qwEJQ 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12433
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 17, 2013, 20:14:47

[removed]

I have no prejudices against any player - if a player performs well I am his strongest supporter.  My problem is that I think Engelbrecht was always a good wing - but he hs produced next to zero as a center.   He tries to run through defenders and is not successful in that.

I was delighted when I saw Steyn would be playing for the Springboks and Sharks in future.   I always thought he was excellent - but after the English tests I started wonderig whether he really was worth it.   Disillution finally sets in when he was doing squat of any value in the Championship test he played in.     That was followed by four Super 15 game.   In the first game against the Cheetahs he was very average - but I thought he would develop in subsequent games.   Instead he went backwards in game after game.   He was so bad that I thoughtthe only thing that would help the Sharks backlie would be to get rid of him - sooner rather than later.  I have nothing against Steyn as a person - I have serious problems with the gfact that he is a very poor performer FACT.

Mozart

I had a look at the clip and I agree with you - Engelbrechht ws really absent from that defensive line - as was the case in the Crusader game - when he missed the tackle of Fruen.

If De Villiers miss a tackle like that you will hear from [removed] well into nrext year about it - but any of the players he supports never does anything wrong.  


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5824
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 17, 2013, 20:19:37

@mozter,

agree to disagree, but i can see where IMO u are making ur mistake. the clip u pulled from utube dosent show the whole situation. ive got every single 2013 spXV game on my laptop (not the aussie darbies, they have been moved into my external hard drive where the can collect cyber dust and safely not bore innocent people) and i have that try playing on a loop as i blog.

when u watch rangers try with the clip that shows the whole picture and not the zoomed in clip from that utube clip, u will see morne clearly runs out of a defensive line which has olivier and jj. saili runs for the gap that morne leaves then changes direction just as quickly as he started his run. olivier dosent stop or force saili to pass in time and saili runs right for the gap between jj and olivier  before passing the ball to olivier.
while all this is happening, jj is left marking frank halai, charles piutau and rene ranger all by himself.

i really believe that jj did nothing wrong, morne rushing mackenzie was the biggest contributor to rangers try.
i would like to hear ur views though after u have seen the same footage that i based my views on.
i will look for it, but if i cant find one i will just upload it to utube and post u a link.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5824
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 17, 2013, 21:03:29

@mozter,

this here utube clip is much better footage of rangers try then the one u showed, it clearly shows all the points i mentioned, the main ones being moren rushing out and jj left to mark a wing, a center and fullback by himself.

www.youtube.com/watch

the clip is the enitre 2nd half, but u can watch it from 40:19 to get to the start of the last phase play before rangers try.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8233
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 17, 2013, 22:38:24

Sasu....I have now looked at your bigger picture version a few times.  With the benefit of that perspective, I still give Morne a pass. When we use the phrase "shot out of line", we usually means one of the outside backs. They are supposed to align on Morne, who only moves forward as the pass is made. He is absolutely in the correct place and at the correct angle.

 

Olivier by contrast doesn't come up and is also very far away from Morne, leaving the gap Saili runs into.

 

JJ seems to recognize Olivier is checking but doesn't stop taking two additional fatal steps. Game over.

 

What do you think these guys should have done....waited until the opposition were five metres over the advantage line? Aggressive defence is to get a solid wall in front of your opponents as deep as possible....Morne was trying to do that, Olivier wasn't committed and JJ was over committed.

 

That's how I see it.....right or wrong. Cheers!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8810
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 18, 2013, 00:02:36

 Moz the bottom line is that your original call that JJ could not play for the Boks because of some or other defensive lapse, of which JJ was the least guilty is way off. Olivier was the guilty party, but that aside, it certainly does not define any of the players.

 

JJ has been defensively solid this year and has had little opportunity with ball in hand. I rate this lad - but our S15 sides lack physical clout this year as the coaches are selecting the wrong forwards - the Stormers, Bulls and Sharks are losing the physical battles for some fail to select a physical loosie or two and others fail physically in the lock department.

 

The backs are getting little ball to work with


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5824
RE: Ranger exposes 3 chronic Bools' weaknesses.
March 18, 2013, 19:41:31

@mozter


"With the benefit of that perspective, I still give Morne a pass. When we use the phrase "shot out of line", we usually means one of the outside backs. They are supposed to align on Morne, who only moves forward as the pass is made. He is absolutely in the correct place and at the correct angle."
with ur definition of shot out of line, i still dont see how u could watch that clip and give morne a pass.
olivier isnt watching the blues with the ball and the players oppisite him.
morne boosts out of line leaving only olivier and jj in the line. if morne was going to break formation, he needed to make that tackle count and stop mackenzie, which he clearly didnt do and ended up adding to all the dramas i have posted in detail.

but lets say olivier and jj were meant to run up in a rushed defensive line.
that leaves morne marking mackezie, olivier marking saili and jj marking ranger and no one marking frank halai and chalres piutau two of the quickest players on the field.
from where morne was when he started running and where the blues was when they started shuffling the ball, thers no way a rushed defence could have stopped it in time, i t would only have left piutau and halai in a clear 2 on 1 against kirchner.

IMO what the bulls should have done was gone up to meet the blues in one line like u suggested, but at half the speed that morne broke formation.
this is a common rugby league tactic which we use to run all the time during drills when the midfield is cuaght out. so to make up for lack of numbers u shuffel wide with an even distance between u and ur closest opponent and shadow the ball carrier who will be shuffling towards the sideline.
this allows u to always have numbers to commit to the tackle, but also buys time for ur support players to shuffle a new denfesive line behind u or support ur defnece directly.

never easy to make those decsions though at a a snap of a finger though, but morne IMO was the biggest contributor still, a little balme for olivier, no blame for jj and shake our head in disgust at krichner who really should have bumped ranger out.
all good though, and to each their own. :o)


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