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3882 Topic: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 13:46:58

Bulls

I am really delighted by the selection of Arno Botha and by the fact that Jan Serfontein is on the bench.   I think that Serfontein will be given some game time and am looking forward to the game itself - provided Morne is not at that stage around to bugger up everything in the form of attacking backline play. 

Assume that the useless Engelbrecht is still injured.

Stormers

As a Shark supporter I am disappointed that De Jongh is not in the squad - since his presence would have been manna from heaven for the Sharks.   I expect Silky Hands to bugger up badly and to be replaced by Grant.   The Stormers are really taking out insurance.   That will also be bad news for the Sharks.

Anyway the Sharks are going to make mincemeat of the poor Stormers and I for one says they are going to win by circa 15 points. .


Lucid

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 194
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 14:58:03

Surprisingly Jantjies will continue ahead of Grant which not necessarily a bad decision, as a coach its important be faithful with players and allow them to improve regardless of one negative result. Jantjies should be aware of his mistakes and i expect him to co-ordinate the backline structure to function more fluently in attack. Not having De Jongh available is unfortunate, to a extent he has distinguished a good platform to progress to be potentially one of the best outside centre in SA, he has already proved hes capable of outplaying Jordaan in the CC and he'll only get better.


bluebok

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1125
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 15:20:40

I am very glad Serfontein is one the bench, should have been there last week as well. As for Jantjes, I'd keep him on the bench, as a last resort, maybe coming off the bench would put him under less perssure....who knows, but I still would not start with him. 


Beeno1

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Posts: 8968
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 15:53:33

For convenience the Stormers squad is:

Stormers: 15 Joe Pietersen, 14 Gio Aplon, 13 Jean de Villiers (c), 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Nic Groom, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Rynhardt Elstadt, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Andries Bekker, 4 De Kock Steenkamp, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Deon Fourie, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Replacements: 16 Martin Bezuidenhout, 17 Pat Cilliers, 18 Don Armand, 19 Nizaam Carr, 20 Louis Schreuder, 21Peter Grant, 22 Gerhard van den Heever.

Referee: Jonathan Kaplan

At least we have a respectable ref.

Go Stormers!!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 15:54:01

Lucid

De Jongh had a pathetic record in Super 15 over the past two years and also played himsef completely out of contention in the Scottish and English tests.   He is not good enough -- even on Super 15 level - and I think it is a blessing for the Stormers that he is not playing on Saturday.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 15:57:22

My sincere sympathy in advance - I only hope the loss is not too bad.   If De Jongh was in the team I qould have given the Sharks a 14+ point victory.   With him not playing I am forced to reduce that to 7+.

GO SHARKS GO


Saffex

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Posts: 7591
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 18:36:35

Ah so now Engelbrecht is useless you stupid twit? Man you are ignorant. Yes JJ is injured......the same player who started well for the Bulls last weekend, beating a man with his first touch


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 18:59:44

Saffex

He beat Silky Hands - and the question remains - who have not beaten him?   Silky Hands is he most useless defender known to mankind.


Keaganzulusmith

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 19:18:59

 its funny saf you say he beat a player with his first touch! and that player is the player you say will be sa future number 10! and again saf all jj has is a fucking step! and for a winger/ centre he doesnt really have loads of pace! which surpises me! 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7591
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 27, 2013, 19:25:47

Kegan, please dont make things up. Jantjies has NEVER been my first choice 10. I rate the kid bigtime, but my first choice 10 is Goosen, followed by Lambie - get your facts straight next time.

 

As for JJ not having pace, what complete and utter bullshit


Lucid

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 194
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 28, 2013, 00:05:54

Mike
Let me be clear, theres a significant difference as to how De Jongh performs on the inside as opposed to the outside centre. When J De Villiers was at 12 De Jongh got less opportunities to spark due to J De Villiers crashballing too much even if theres a overlap he would continue doing that. Its inevitable that was the issue and it will remain a issue if JDV continues to be at 12. De Jongh being at 12 shows his true potential as we saw in the currie cup final, he gets more opportunities with ball in hand, just pure class. The pathetic record is based on him playing 13 not 12 get it right.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
February 28, 2013, 05:01:54

Lucid

I cannot remember about De Jongh playing at 12 over the past two years for the Stormers or WP - But I do accept your statement of himbeing better at 12 than at 13.    Since Morne Steyn came onto the scene as the Springbok flyhalf inside centers were at a serious disadvantage.  Steyn always stood very deep in the pocket and his first inclination was to kick the ball away.  When he did pass the ball way behind the gain line the defenders were virtually on top of the inside center since they went for the recipient and never found it necessary to defend against any other play by Steyn himself - especially since he did not really himself attacked the gain line.   The inevitable result was that the inside center had to crashball - often enough behind the gain line.  Its effect was the so called dead backline syndrome so noticeable in SA rugby.     

Somehow this syndrome washed over into Stormers rugby as well.  The idea was that the backline cannot be used as an attacking mechanism at all and that their virtually only role was to defend.  This was used as a playing strategy by the Stormers - very similar to what happened to Springbok rugby.    In essence it also meant that the only way the outside center and wings can come into play was if they go and look for balls to play with themselves - otherwise they would never see the balls in open play.    Under those circumstances De Jongh was not really successful at all.  

Under those circumstances De Jongh has a serious problem - he is physically very small for a backline player and he has a limited scope to really compete against bigger and stronger players.   For that reason he cannot really affect line breaks himself and is frequently tackled back in the process of attacking hthe gain line.   Fact is that unless De Jongh gets a clear open space he can run into - like happened in the CC Final - he is not really an effective player.

You earlier mentioned Jordaan -  there is a very real difference between the two - which makes Jordaan a much more difficult customer to contend with than De Jongh.   Jordaan is a very speedy player and  although only about 2cm taller than De Jongh - he is 8 kgs heavier than De Jongh and physically very strong.  He is also a very slippery customer and difficult to tackle - even by bigger players.   You would for instance never see Jordaan being tackled back by players and you would see him off-loading balls effectively in tackle situations.   When Jordaan came onto the scene in 2012 on Super Series level the impact was immediately felt.   When he came off the bench in his first game against the Bulls - the first ball he received in the Sharks 22 was handled brilliantly - and it led to a try by the Sharks.   He then started to play for the Sharks all the time at 13.   He himself went to look for balls and even entered maul situations to prize balls loose from the forwards and he was instrumental frequently in tries scored by the Sharks.   He also scored some brilliant tries himself - using his speed as a major weapon.   That is what made him a more effective player at 13 than De Jongh. 

 


Lucid

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 194
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
March 01, 2013, 13:18:20

Mike
In response to ur post De Jongh was at 13 in that particular match, i was mistaken, in that additional try that was well executed from the set peice De Jongh was in fact the second receiver as if he was the inside centre. In comparison of Jordaan you obviously have different ambivalent understanding to mine, to a extent how do you exactly differentiate the players abilities, on actual stats to determine who is more efficient? As myself i do not define a player based on weight or height its not relevant, it doesn't have a impact as to who is a rather a stronger player. Alot of coaches these days are inconsiderate and gets too caught up with players weight, having a mindset that high weight is the fundamental reason why they need them in the team. Which is not always beneficial, Greyling is a realistic example of that, its the only explaination why he was selected.

Im not in a agreement with the statement you mentioned about flyhalfs standing deep in the pocket caused inside centres to crashball, generally they have enough time to make a decent pass to the outside centre. What about the Flyhalfs that doesn't stand deep in the pocket? JDV still continues to crashball too much, its his natural instinct, 'greedy' in essence im glad JDV is currently playing at 13, occasionally the wingers do get some ball in hand as a result of that transition.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: Team Changes - Bulls and Stormers
March 02, 2013, 01:18:08

Lucid

I sustantially agree wit you about the issue of weight and size of players and was a great admirer ofPaulse as a player.  I also used to rate other smaller backline players - and at one stage ws an admirer of De Jongh as well.   However, De Jongh over the past two years was extremely disappointing.  

Basically smaller players must distinguish themselves by being extremely clever players and by developing player strategies that creates problems for oppronents,   The problem with De Jongh is that he can only contrbiute if somebody else create space for him 0 he himself cannot implment any play that lead to problems for the oppositng side.

I can quote many examples - but the situation is basically that De Jongh is frequntly tackled back since he is not strong enough to go forward when tackled and he also tends under sucj circumstances to lose balls in tackle situations or or getting penalized for hanging onto balls.   Anothr problem he has at center is that he does not really excel in passing balls to other players - as a matterof fact he rearely does so and he cannot off-load balls in tackle situations.

Akthough Jordaan is small in built as well - he is a dofferent kettle of fish altogether,    He has had only part of a srason on Super 15 level and the same with CC level performances.   In that short period he has -

*   scored more tries than De Jongh did in two years of CC Rugby - the CC Final try being his only try in that competuiton this year;

*   scored 2 tries on Super 15 level in about a third of the number of matches compared to what De Jongh did; and;

*   he created a number of opportunties for other players to score tries in both competitions - matter of fact some of the Sharks best tries this season came from moves started by him..

De Jongh is a very good defender - his deficency is in attacking  play.    Whereas De Jongh can be tackled easily - unless he has huge space he normally is tackled easily - Jordaan is a much more difficult player to tackle.  He is slippery and strong on his feet enabling him to off-load balls in tackle situations.  

However, prioably the biggest advantages Jordaan has over De Jongh  are -

*   he (Jordaan)  is extremely speedy and some commentators have labled him as the fastest rugby player in SA at present; and

*   he is one of the SA players with a very high level of ball sense.

I was extremeky disappointed by the way De Jongh played in the London test.       De Jongh for some reasons only known to himself - was often not inovled in play when the balls in fact was passed along the backline.   Although the balls wer frequently went pst De Villiers - the proble was there was no overlap created when Kircchner joined the line up since De Jongh was out of positio and the attacks normally died with Kirchner being tackled.

After his poor performances in the recent two tests I think that it is unlikely De Jongh would ever be considere for selection to the Springbok team again.    


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