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3743 Topic: Players with Ball sense and Skills
clevermike

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Posts: 12007
Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 14, 2013, 21:25:21

There has often enough being discussions on this Board and members also indicated what ball sense and skills imply.   The term ball sense go back many decades and denotes a variety  of characterisitcs that all players should possess to qualify for that distinction.  However, it is not always possible to describe those characteristics that nake a player fir the description.

In essence what describe the ball sense identification is -

*   In very rare cases players instinctively deal with play situations to maximise benefits to the team;

*   Another sign is that playes know where the ball is going to go and often enough unexpectedly turn up in places on the field of paly qhwew rhwy are not expected to be;

*   They are able to read and understand quickly any stiuation developing on the field of play and gear their actions accordingly, 

*   The ability to think on their feet and quickly decide on which play would be best suited and to the advantage of the team in given circumstances.

In other words ball sense in essence has nothing to do with physical skills in handling passing and kicking of balls - which is an essential requirement for every player with ball sense.   However, a player in respect of which te elements mentioned earlier is absent - normally are not as effective as they shoud be.   In essence the players with ball sense are regularly regarded as the best in world rugby and consequently walk away with awarding of prizes as top players throughout the world.

Playes without ball sense are slow in decisionmaking - resulting in them not being able to be creative insofar as plays are concerned and they tend to do the same things over and over again.   

Basically the final determination is whether a skilled player is capable of playing clever rugby or not. Normally a person very early in life start showing signs of having ball sense - for instance a player with one of the most advanced level of ball sense is Timo Swiel.   I would like to mention also that some players only rely on phiscal strength and effectively do not show any or verry little signs that they are creative in playing the game 

A further problem is that some think the bigger physique players are better - whether they have ball sense or not.  This is obviously a fallacy.

Now for the purposes of discussion I want to mention some Springboks and show how they meet the ball sense requirement:-

*  Kirchner - only norm is physicality and his decisionmakig is slow and inadequate - devoid of ball sense

*  Pietrsen and Habana - Advanced level of ball sense in evidence

 *  Taute -   a slow decisionmaker without that elementary requirement to qualiy as a player wth ball sense

*  Francois Steyn - same as Taute

*  Morne Steyn - no sign of ball sense at all

*  Hougard at scrummie is limited because he has a limited capacity insofar as ball sense is concernd.

Of the younger players - there are players with ball sense and skills way in advance of the examples mentioned.   Goosen, Lambie, Serfontein, Dellende  and Jordaan are typical examples of ball sense players

There is one advantage that is to the benfit of full backs - and that is that they have a bit more time to decide on issues than other backline players have.

if physical strength is to be  the only norm - we might as well field a team of donkey-brained players and be beaten constantly by tams like New Zealand - especially insofar as backline play is concerned. .    


Saffex

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 14, 2013, 23:06:02

 Mike to say that Taute, Hougaard and Frans lack ball sense etc and players like JP and Habana do is complete bullshit.

 

You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Frans has more ball sense than the majority of the players you mention - the only players to compete with him in this regard are Goosen and Lambie.

 

We have not seen enough of Serfontein, de Allende and Jordaan to really make a formative decision.

 

But what is clear is that you do not know what you are talking about


mozart

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 14, 2013, 23:33:49

To me Lambie is a player with ball sense. He seems to instinctively know where the touchline is, who is around him, how to fall to retain the ball. Kirchner is the opposite of this, he kicks to the wrong spots, runs when he should kick and has no sense of impending danger.


clevermike

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Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 00:37:48

Saffex

Have you read what the term ball sence implies? Apparently not - since you absolutely fail to see the real signs of deficient ball sense even if it hit you in th e face.

Can you name one instance where for instance Steyn shows anythig like the ball sense description as outlined above during 2012?   I like Steyn as a player - because he is very physical.   The question is - does he have the abilities to be decribed as a ball sense player?   The answer is definitely not.   The game he plays is repetative and is easily read by opposing players.  In 2012 he crashballed with more than 80% of the balls that he received ,   It wasf the most repetative and predictable performances possible.  The following can be said of the two in the Springbok team last year -

*  Morne would kick away aimlessly 80% of all balls he received;, and 

 *  Francois would creashballed  aimlessly 80% of the balls he receivd.

Francois i Steyn has physical strength on his side - but he definitely is not from a ball sense perspetive in the top ecchelons of rugby.

Hougaard - the charge down kicks indiate that he is deficient in ball sense and his deficient service to the backline were identified by Meyer.   Again a player with top physique and nothing else that shows he can read games properly, 


Saffex

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 00:49:15

 The fact that you conclude Frans has limited or no ball sense at all, tells me you dont know what you are talking about.

 

I dont need to read what ball sense is, I know what it is and its one thing Frans has heaps of as have Goosen, Jean and Lambie


mozart

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 01:04:11

Fransie has great hands....I remember in a test a while back against the Bargies, where he picked a ball off the deck at full speed. That's not ball sense though....no player with ball sense would get charged as often. Fransie is the perfect 10 by way of physique ...a bigger and stronger Butch James. The reason he never worked there and it was his first choice when he started, is he doesn't have ball sense.


clevermike

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 01:06:01

Saffex

Once again you showed one thing - you are really clueless about the finer points that distinguish great players from average players.  You always refer to Francois Steyn and SBW as equals.    Francois Steyn could not be equated to SBW - the only similarity is size - the differences are more pronounced.  SBW can read games better and off-load and pass  balls with great affect in tackle situations.   Steyn never of-loaded balls at all last year and is seemingly not aware how to use that method to advantage of the team.   If he ever pass balls it is ineffectve as well. 

Frans has very little ball sense - he is a player using physical strength - nothing else.  Jean is better in that respect.   But both is not remotely on par with clever players like Lambe, Goosen and Jordaan,.

 


Saffex

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 01:18:59

Oh what complete nonsense, the fact that Frans got charged down a few times does not define his lack of ball sense. What it told us is that maybe Frans was not suited to 10 but hardly definitive. Being charged down has everything to do with hand to foot speed and nothing to do with ball sense.

 

Jean has plenty of ball sense as does SBW, put them at 10 and ask them to clear for touch and chances are they will fail, does that mean they to lack ball sense?

 

Mike, telling me I dont know the finer points is laughable. Frans is the closest we have to SBW, both physically and skill set wise. The difference between them is that the AB's embrace and use SBW to take contact and offload, support runners are aware of this and act accordingly . The Boks do not employ the same tactics, for Meyer has not embraced the way the modern game is played.

 

Meyer instructs our 9 & 10 to kick, with our 12 and 13 living off scraps


clevermike

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Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 07:21:47

Saffex

It is easy to blame Meyer for deficiencies in backline play - and I agree with you about Meyer and his playing styles.    Meyer is not a coach that understand and even knows wht is required from backlines and players to make them really effective.    However, there are other issues at play here as well - insofar as specific players are concerned and I will give you a number of examples as food for thought 

*    Hougaard and Pienaar often was in a position where  they had to make relieving kicks deep inside their own 22 - Hougaard frequently got charge down in making those kicks - under exactly the same circumstanses, - Pienaar never was.   Hougaard would never have dreamt to make that pass directly to Pietersen - skipping thae rest of the backline - that led to th scoring of the try that resulted in us draawing with the English in the PE test last year.   He has shown that he just do not read the  game well enough to do just that.

*     As you also pointed out - the 12 and 13 get far too few balls they can really use.   However, it is exactly why those ball usages must be optimized and not fritted away with repetative and rather thoughtless play.   If you put Steyn and Jordaan in exactly the same position - they would do different things - the difference being that Jordaan would be much more effective than Steyn would be.   As an example - there is a video clip on Jordaan's first play ever on Super 15 level - when he came off the bench.   Look at that clip and you will appreciate the difference between them from a ball sense perspective.   In the case of Jordaan - he used a dribble kick effectively and it lead to a try - when Steyn tried exactly the same - it led to points scored by the opposition.   Let me give you a secret - Jordaan summed up instantly what was in front of him and how to make the kick most effectively.   Frans tried the same - but it failed because he did not sum up the position correctly quickly enough so as to make the process an advantage istead of a disadvantage.

I will give you another indication -  Steyn is slow off the mark and do not reach proper speed quickly enough.   In the process when he gets the balls Steyn runs straight at the opposing defender and consequently in the process of being tackled he crashballed.    In similar circumstances Jordaan runs at an entirely different angle at much higher speed and even though he is much smaller in built than Steyn - he makes more meters than Steyn - since he is a slippery customer and difficult to be tackled.   In the process he off-loads balls effectively - something Steyn never does.   Running the way he is - the opposition finds it more difficult to read Jordaan  than they do with Steyn.   Fact is Jordaan may crashball with 10% of he balls he receives - Steyn with 80%.   An easy example is that fourth try in the Junior WC game against England - just go and look at it again and you will get the message.    Incidentally that is also the reason why SBW is so effective in off-loading of balls - he runs different lines from Steyn's habitual line of play.  

I am not saying there is not a place for Steyn in the Springbok backline - I am saying that there should not be more than one such player in the backline.   If Steyn has ball sense players around him he would show up better.   That is exactly what happened last week in Pietermaritzburg.  He had Lambie on his inside and Jordaan on his outside - with Ludick at full back and Pietersen on the wing adding value - he really performed well.   Lambie and the other players created the plays that made Steyn looked good.

Let me add - if you have too many ball sense deficient players in your backline - like SA had last year - it will kill backline performances.  That is why in 2012 the Springbok backline was totally ineffective and the same with the one of the Stormers, whilst the Sharks and the Cheetahs performed better from a backline perspective. 

 

 

.      


Saffex

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Posts: 8554
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 11:18:00

Wrong Mike, put Jordaan at 12 in a test match and he would be sorely exposed.

 

Meyer has plenty to answer to, he sets the pattern of play and its not the players fault that their coach is out of touch with modern rugby or is incapable of getting the best 15 on the field.


clevermike

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Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 12:38:25

Sasue

I never said anything of playing Jordaan at 12- and even if he is played there his performance in that position - when he played opposite SBW In the Super 15 final last year  - was very good.   I said I favour Steyn at 12 - but I would surround him with players with advanced balls and skill sets.

With Lambie or  Goosen on his inside and Jordaqan outside - and with the wings we have - Steyn will shine as well.    He did just that last week and that proves my point.


Saffex

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Posts: 8554
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 12:42:57

Well for a start Frans has more ball sense than most of our backs and thats a fact, he certainly has more ball sense than Jordaan.

 

Frans is one of our best backs on all levels, except pace - 12 is the most important position in the backline and Frans would not have achieved as much as he has at test level and become an automatic selection years ago, if he had no ball sense - its the biggest load of bullshit I have read in ages - clueless springs to mind.


clevermike

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Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 13:07:07

Saffex

Bullshit - you obviously STILL don't KNOW what ball sense is.  Steyn  is a very strong and physically a good player - but he brings nothing else to games.   That is why he virtually never contribute to scoring of tries or rarely score tries himself.  

Next to players with ball sense he is in fact better - despite his low ball sense capacity.  Did he contributed to creative backline play last year - what he did boiled down to NOTHING?   If that does not tell you about the issue - nothing will


Saffex

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Posts: 8554
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 13:32:55

No what is bullshit of the highest order is you saying that Frans only brings physicality to the game - what utter ignorance - you clearly know stuff all about the game.

 

I know exactly what ball sense is, I did not need to look it up as you did.

 

How the hell do you think Frans made it to where he is today as an international 12 if he had no ball sense - are you stupid.

 

If all we needed was physicality to make it as an international 12, then we might as well get Etzebeth to play 12 - wake up man, you are speaking crap


bluebok

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Posts: 1149
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 13:40:59

Jaque Fourie is a player with "good ball" sense. Just to be clear, I speak in present tense, because he is still playing rugby, but I refer to the rugby he played in South Africa a few years back. He is not the biggest or fastest centre in world rugby, but just look at his try scoring record and it is obvious that he has a brilliant rugby brain. The reason he so often runs the perfect line and is able to finish off tries, is because of his ability to read the game.

That brings me to another point, I have always understood ball sense to be more about hand-eye coordination, than a good tactical brain. I think you guys a blurring the line between the two. There are many people with brilliant hand eye coordination, that are just not astute enough to be top level athletes, because they lack tactical thinking. All Springbok level players have great hand eye coordination, but what sets the good apart from the great is the level of instinctive/reactive thinking that the different players possess. 

 

As for Frans and SBW, they are completely different typess of players. Frans is a big, physical, hard nosed, in your face kind of centre, with a strong boot. He used to have an unpredictability that made him dangerous, but that player, from what I have observed, is long gone. He has become a ball greedy player that thinks he still had the magic of years gone by, and when he does try wierd and wonderful things, they mostly just land up being silly decisions.  SBW is a more agile player that relies on his awareness of players around for deft touches to put others into space. Bottom line is, SBW is unique, Frans is just another South African centre that has been converted from a wild untamed talent, into a predictable crash ball centre with a huge boot.  


Saffex

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 14:00:28

Wrong SBW is no more agile than Frans, the difference between them is patterns of play employed. I am not saying Frans is the same as SBW, I am saying he is the closest we have to SBW.

 

SBW plays in an environment that encourages him to play to his strengths and his team mates are atune to his ability to create forward momentum by taking contact and offloading. Support runners are looking to recieve the ball off him.

 

We sadly do not embrace this form of play. Frans is only 25 for goodness sake and has become a more measured and refined player, to say he is only a crashball centre smacks of ignorance. All test 12's today spend their time in traffic given modern day defensive structures. The art of a test 12 it taking contact and offloading or running decoy lines to create space. Its about making the ball available in tight situations - SBW has perfected this.

 

Frans has shown his ability to impose himself physically and has good hands - its a case of the team and coach embracing and being aware of the opportunities available through the offload. Our support players dont run the support lines expecting to receive the ball off an offload. Its not about the individual player its about the teams mindset and the pattern of play we adopt


clevermike

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Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 14:24:51

Saffex

Calm down - you spoke in your latest posting above of physicality - that is where Steyn is strong.   OK - Frans is an international center - but will he make the grade in any of the other 5 top teams in international rugby.  I think not - he does not bring enough to the game to be selected by them as physicality is not the final  and only norm  in team selection.

You want to tell us that there never is a player around to off-load balls to in tackle situations - because Steyn never did that in 2012?   That is indeed hard to believe.  The way he deals with running before being tackled says a lot - in the rare occcassions he is tackled beyond the gain line there are enough players around - problem is he rarely if ever gets to the gain line.  Blame Morne in particular for that - but Steyn is also to blame since he is really slow off the mark.

Steyn is a very good player - but other players must help him by creative play - he himself does not create play 

 

 

  


Saffex

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Posts: 8554
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 14:40:20

Mike you really do speak shit.

 

Frans is far better than Barritt, Darcy, McCabe and Roberts for a start and a player like Nonu is no better. There are no French 12's of note either

 

So bang goes your ignorant theory on Frans in the other top 5 sides


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 15:50:02

It’s always the same with you, hey Dave …

 

Telling someone that they’re talking shit and that they’re wrong and your right … you’re always right …  post after post after post … it’s never f-cking ending.

 

If I’ve read one post of yours, I’ve read them all.

 

I wish I could always be right … like you. That would be so awesome.

 

How does it feel to be a rugby god … hey Dave? To know everything … hmmmm???

 

It wouldn’t surprise me if this actually extended to other subject matter as well. Are you a know it all, Dave?

 

Does your wife know who she has as a husband? She must be so proud!!!

 

You know in my fifty years on this planet I’ve come to realize one thing … that most people are generally, good people … BUT … every now and then, one comes across a person, who is just naturally an arsehole … right to the very core of their soul … an arsehole …

 

It's a lonely place to find yourself in  ... isn't it Dave??


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11097
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 16:00:16

Hey Bud (Mike) you clearly know stuff all about the game! Ignorance of the highest order. But thanks bud re you confirming I didnt post any pic of my house. It helps me a great deal and stuff anyone who make silly remarks about you not having seen all my posts. They are ignorant twats and clueless to boot.

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahaha vintage drivel from ou snapster!


Saffex

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 18:07:37

Well Capcap, one certainty is that you certainly are not in a position to pass judgement on any matters rugby for only an ignorant twat would conclude that Hougaard is a poor rugby player, re-enforced by your take on Frans

 

Its quite obvious you know stuff all but hey good to have you back on board - you will serve well as another ignorant cyber matt for me to wipe my feet on


Saffex

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RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 18:09:52

Beenkop, even your lying is poor - this attempt is just pathetic.

 

At least when Moffie lies he makes a good fist of it. Your attempt is hardly worth responding to.......stick to insulting the dead and those in mourning, its your strength


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 18:31:51

Saffex

I should never have raised the issue - but  thought it would give people a better idea about how Francois Stey should to my mind be utilized to optimum advantage,   Francois Steyn has limitations insofar as ball sense is concerned - you apparently regard physicality and physical ball handling  as ball sense - which it definitely is not.   Let me go further and try and explain in plain language -- ball sense relates to instant decisions as to what to do that would creae better results for the team you are playing in.   It is not really physical - it is mental abilities that is often instinctive rather than anything else.   If you have that ability in a player - coupled to physique you really have the top player in rhe world.  

Let me explain further - Dan Carter is a wonderful flyhalf - yet he is not the biggest and most physical flyhalf in the world - he has ball sense galore and knows best what to do with balls that comes his way - but you will notice that one of his strong points  is that he is not repetative and opposition finds it difficult to read his game and to defend against him.   

If you want to be honest - you will have to admit that we saw nothing creative last year in Francois Steyn - he was just not good enough in that aspect of his game.   My feeling is that we must optimize th performances of Steyn by putting ball sense players around him.

  


Saffex

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Posts: 8554
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 18:41:33

No Mike physicality has nothing to do with ball sense and I have NEVER said as much.

 

Mike there is no issue with raising points regarding ball sense, but then to say Frans lacks these very points ie he lacks ball sense, makes a mockery of your understanding of what ball sense is


oimatey

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1199
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 19:35:26

 The problem with this discussion as it related to the Boks is that they are not encouraged to play with that "ball sense". To do so implies risk (offloads, impulsiveness, creativity etc) and that is not acceptable in Meyers mind - at least what can be gathered from the current game plans. Meyer's personnel therefore relies on big bruising players that are good tacklers who can carry the ball well, protect and contest possession and apply pressure on the defense. The backline has to have good chasers (which we have the best in the world imo) as well as a kicking scrumhalf. Boks were a LOT better with Pienaar as scrummie and Louw contesting on the ground. Of course this formula also requires a kicker who can convert on the pressure that creates penalties - Steyn's loss of form cost the Boks last year. Heyneke's failure to recognize his loss of form (clearly evident in the S15 preceding the Tests) and his persistent loyalty to Steyn was his biggest mistake and cost him a much better record on the season.

 

While the formula is a boring one, it can be successful - good enough to beat anyone - but there is no margin for error. A team built like that and with that game plan does not have the ability to come back if they get too far behind as flair and ball sense has been drilled out of them. With Meyer in charge I don't see that approach to limit risk changing.

 


Beeno1

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Posts: 11097
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 20:26:02

snaspter I am hoping against hope  you treat your bud Mike with a bit more respect. No lies snapster just pointing out the obvious. 

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 21:41:46

0imatey

If there is on thing the SA Coaches are remarkably  successful wih - it is to knock all forms of ball sense out of players - it is just one aspect - which is totally unacceptable to them.   Take for example Jean De Villiers and Francois Steyn.  When they came out of school and in their junior years they showed a lot of talent.  Today they are in the team - not bcause they are talented - but because they are size-wise acceptable,

I hate that system [ and I also severely dislike it if players are picked becasue their size is acceptable.  Our dead backline syndrome is due to the fact that we have far too many "donkeys" in the Springbol team.   However, Meyer may have found out some very unpleasant things last year and we may yet see a change.

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 22:07:46

Beeno

There is no need to worry about Saffex and his remarks.   I love debating things with him as he uses techniques causing much enjoyment to people like me.   Hisself- devastating technique is a boon to ithers on the Board   The following techques are of great help to his opponents

 *  His generalized statements.- I give him facts with proven  examples of specific occurences in games  - he responds with even wilder generalizations

  *  When you  really have him in the floor - the toilet lanuage stars flowing like lava.

I just love it to see him down and out[ during a debate like the one above.        


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 504
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 15, 2013, 22:19:20

Don't know how it is in SA but in NZ ball sense developed when ball 1st picked up, around 5, from there play midget football, casual play with bro's, friends, touch football, progressing through club and or school grade teams. A rugby ball was always the number 1 toy for young kiwi's when I was growing up, endless hours of both structured and unstructured play/training helped develop ball sense, as well as games of course. However individualism/talent also was the line betwen a good club player and an international class player with ball sense.


clevermike

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Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 03:17:27

Polyboy

No truer a word ever spoken.   I at times hink that somehow people are borne with it, but then it really is a talent that is only the privilege of a minority of ball players    The problem is that only a few people in SA appreciates that quality in rugby players - the rest thinks like Saffex does in this case.  The worst culprits are our coachs in all codes of sport - rugby is run by the same clueless gang that constantly fight a determined battle to get it out of players and never will select players with that quality unless they are of huge size - a situation that is probably find in no more than 5% of all great  ball players in the  world.  Even if they find the odd one in SA - the determined battle by the coaches to destroy the quality in players normally wins out in the end.

The weirdest thing in South Africa is that people can argue endlessly about the term and ascribe it  to certain players.  I once had a long discussion with a person - who said Morne Steyn is the player in SA with the most advanced level of ball sense.   

As long as we have the Steyns and other players like  Taute and Kirchner in our backlines - it would only lead to dead backline syndrome and the idiots around here fails miserably to realize it. 


Keaganzulusmith

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 03:53:51

Mike I for one actually agree with you on this one! Styen has become one of the most one dimentional players with no ball sense to pass when he should in these last few years, he has just become a ram that we use to get the ball over the line... Even that doesn't work! If I had my way he wouldn't be a bok atm until he can prove himself again! However I do think you are mistaken in the hougie area! He has some amazing ball sense look at when he plays for the bulls! He picks and goes with the ball getting the wholes and he boxes it when needed! The reason I believe he struggled at 9 for Sa was due to the gameplan and not letting him run his game ad the protection was not world class! South Africa need a 12 that has good ball sense when to pass and when to run and when to kick! Also like stated above we need another fourie! He was one of the best ball readers I have seen in my short life! And if anyone compares styen to SBW again I will scream! SBW plays a totally different game to any centre due to his league background and that is final! No other centre plays like that or will be able to I think due to the fact he is just one of a kind! 


clevermike

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Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 04:11:55

Keagan

I think that Hougaard is probably the player that has been battered most by Meyer to get him to play stupid rugby and I really sympathize with him.   I mentioned him because I thought he did not produce the goods last year.   Between us - I think that if Hougaard is given a freer reign - he can get over his problems.   For a variety of reasons he has it in him to get over his probem.

I actually share your opinion on Francois Steyn - for a variety of reasoons - some physical like his slowness of the mark - I do not think he will be able to get back to the Francois Steyn of a few years ago.   However, since the clueless Meyer will always pick him at 12 - I think a new approach would be the only way to go - while we wait for De Allende and Serfontein to develop further - and that is surround Steyn with players that do have ball sense and see whether that would not work.

The game last week in Pietermaritsburg did show signs that it could be the way to go  and I hope that Steyn playing alongside Lambie, Jordaan and Pietersen - should show the way forward.  


Keaganzulusmith

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 14:58:57

I agree Meyer had a shocker last year trying to play super rugby at international level and hougie just couldn't get the freedom he wanted! The game last week against the cheetahs I heard he played and amazing game with great sense of what to do! He is one to watch this year in super to see he the monkey is off his back! What I think we need to do with styen is put him 13 that way if he does just crah ball everything he only takes out one player from being able to get the ball! I want I see jan at 12 for the bulls as if you watched the baby boks him and James small  smith (who seems to have vanished off the face of the earth! ) showed the ability to read the game an use the ball well! 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7899
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 15:21:59

So now it's Meyer's fault that players don't have ball sense. Unbelievable.

 

Look I can tell you now, as long as the Bools don't make the playoffs Hougaard will look like he is a cinch at 9. He is an outstanding athlete.

 

But we wont know if the problem is resolved until we are in a 4N test....on the half way line.....behind.....and 5 phases have succeeded only in losing 5 metres. That's when we'll know if he can accept the decision making burden at 9.

 

Hougaard's issues had nothing to do with ball sense, nothing to do with an extra step before he passes.....and everything to do with his inability to be a general rather than a weapon. It's a mental thing, which is what makes it hard to judge.

 

He has great ball sense and vision. You only have to look at his try against Wales in the RWC to see this.


Keaganzulusmith

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 15:43:28

Mo in hougie case it is Meyer fault he played to a game plan he didn't like! And burden at 9 bags hahahahhaahha I think not! He is over rated and I see him be a force in the super formate but he won't be a bok I just don't see it but if I'm proven wrong I will gladly take my faults but hougie will be a better 9 this year just needs to get that confidence up again!


Keaganzulusmith

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 175
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 15:43:29

Mo in hougie case it is Meyer fault he played to a game plan he didn't like! And burden at 9 bags hahahahhaahha I think not! He is over rated and I see him be a force in the super formate but he won't be a bok I just don't see it but if I'm proven wrong I will gladly take my faults but hougie will be a better 9 this year just needs to get that confidence up again!


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7899
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 15:56:34

Hougaard played to exactly the same game plan he played to in the S15 with the Bools, a few weeks before. But when it wasn't working he got rattled....that's why Meyer correctly pulled him. This ritual blaming of Meyer for everything is a bit daft.

 

Meyer actually did lots of good things last year:

 

1) He gave all the youngsters a chance. That was gutsy, because in his heart he had to know it was a big risk.

 

2) He made big player calls....bringing back Pienaar and benching Hougaard, on Strauss, bringing back Louw, promoting Vermeulen and sitting down Coetzee.....but especially putting his faith in Lambie at 10 for the YE tour, the obvious call would have been Jantjies, which would have been a disaster..

 

3) He ended the year , by sweeping up north....something we haven't done for years.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 16, 2013, 16:52:58

Mozart

The issue of Meyer should not have reared its head here - even though his game plan did affect the performance of certain players.

Meyer essentially was a mixed bag in 2012 and he himself admitted that he made serious mistakes.   He limited the playing style of Lambie - who apparently was instructed to play the Meyer brand in the tests against the Irish and the Scots - and only told before the English test that he has a free hnd to play his natural style.

Lets just consider backline play and forget the issue of forwards in this case:-

  *    I do believe Meyer did the right thing by pulling the plug on Hougaard.   The player was out of form and he was bad in some respects.

 *     Meyer was wrong in keeping Morne Steyn as long as he did at flyhalf.   With disfunctional half backs the backline performances were in total jeopardy

 *     Meyer made a complete hash of selection of players like Taute and De Jongh at center.   Taute had only three games over a period of two years in that position - and De Jongh was a complete failure in Super 15 over the same period.

*      Meyer buggered up the flyhalf issue completely.   He put Jantjies on th bnch in tests and in the Soweto test he used him with disastrous effects - he at that stage absolutely refuse to use Lambie at all "because he was not satisfied with Lambie's kickig game"   That showed that the only thing Meyer regarded as important in the game of flyhalfs was their kicking ability.

The above being said - Meyer did say he made some mistakes in player selections.   I think the major problem was that meyer selected players incapable of implementing any game plan he may hav had in mind and then found out they were deficient.

I have some hope that with specialist advice - Hougaard can sort out that mixed top storey of his.   Problem is SARU is buggering up worst than Meyer did - or they are on the same level.   They appointed technical advisors to help players develop their skills - BUT THEY DID NOT APPOINT SUCH ADVISORS TO DEAL WITH BACKLINE PLAY.   The latter should have been the first area that technical advice was needed.   The latter confirms my statement - that SA Coaches are hell bent to knock ball sense completely out of players.

Now back to the players concerned - I still think that Francois Steyn is not a ball sense player - the more Saffex made generalized statements to the contrary  - the more I think Steyn is deficient in the relevant regard.  Over the last few years De Villiers lost much of his earlier promise he showed and although he is less-predictable than Steyn - he is still a vey average center - with very little shown in ball sense.   De Jongh has shown that he never knew the term and he has been an absolute dud now for two years.

Meyer picked Taute - a full back - in crucial tests to play at 13.   Taute who played 3 games at center in a period spanning two years - was picked by Meyer to play in a position that he lost contact with and the result was a serious dent in Taute's performance record.   Taute over a two year period developed an excellent full back skills set and his performances were excellent.   Meyer apparently realized he made a mistake and selected Taute as a full back for the EOYT.   Because De Jongh was so bloody hopeless Meyer used Taute at 13 in the Irish test and when that did not produce positive results - used the even poorer De Jongh for the last two tests.

Be it as it may - throughout last year - the  backline selection was a joke - and a bad one at that,   The fact is that most of the inside backline players and the full back  selected by Meyer  failed miserably in any reasonabl assessment and evaluation of their ball sense capacity - and it is no wonder the backline failed to perform,

If De Villiers was not so old - I would pick him at 12 - play Lambie at 10 - select Jpordaan at 13 and Taute at full back.  However, De Villiers is not a future investment and Steyn could be used as a stopgap until the younger players like Serfontein and De Allende got more experience on Super 15 level and in the process prove that they can manage to play on that high level .

Now that would be enough to give Saffex a seizure.  

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8554
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 17, 2013, 14:00:52

 Meyer's gameplan stifled creative backline play - FACT

 

Meyer's first year as Bok coach was poor - he did nothing for the young players we have at our disposal, because he ignored them in favour of washed up hasbeens. 57% is poor - FACT


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 17, 2013, 16:53:54

Saffex

There can be no arguments about Meyer's deficient backline selections.  He stumbled from failure to failure.   Just one further question - did Meyer have a game plan at all??? 


KalaedFreddie

Status: Squad member
Posts: 397
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 17, 2013, 21:00:25

 Man, ball sense is something a player has or does not have.  People with no ball sense normally do not last in ball games, they fall off early in their years.  Skills is a thing that can be taught or trained into a player.  In South Africa there is a shortage of skills-coaches and especially in the Bok team.  That brother is clueless sowaar.

 

Mike I do not think one should place all the blame on meyer, but then again the buck stops with hm nê.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12007
RE: Players with Ball sense and Skills
February 17, 2013, 22:04:14

KaleadFreddie

You are indeed correct - players have ball sense or they do not have it.   I must add that one of the players  with real ball sense - Paul Jordaan - comes from the Eastern Cape/

The problem is that in SA the issue is not taken into account when elections are made - and those players with it are often regard punished by never being in contention.   Not being sure what the real criterium for backline selection is - but it seems size and the ability to kick balls is really th deciding factor.

Even when those selected players fail to deliver - they are kept on for years, without reagard to their axctual performance.    TSome players have massive media hype and that means that they can hang on to their positions in the Springbok team.

 .


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