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3567 Topic: The Bok pecking order
Saffex

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The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 02:03:32

as I see it prior to the S15. This is my pecking order and it will be interesting to see how it changes post S15. Who Meyer selects for the first test is irrelevant as a benchmark as I have little faith in his selections. I am placing emphasis on moving forward, so older players slip down the order.

 

15. Lambie / Taute / W.le Roux / U.Beyers / Ludik / Kirchner / J.Visser

 

14/11. JP / Habana / JJ. Engelbrecht / Jordaan / Rhule / Mvovo / Mapoe / v/d Heever / Mjekevu / Sithole / Helberg / Volmink

 

13. Taute / JJ.Engelbrecht / Jordaan / Howard / Serfontein / de Allende / JP du Plessis / Sadie / Dries Swanepoel / Tyler Fisher

 

12. Frans Steyn / Serfontein / Whitehead / de Allende / Frans Venter

 

10. Goosen / Lambie / Jantjies / Swiel / Pollard / Fouche / Catrakillis

 

9. Hougaard / Pienaar / Reinach / v/Zyl / Groom / Schrauder / Duvenhage / Hoffman

 

1. Beast / Coenie / Kitshoff / M.v/d Merwe / Nkanyane / Mellet / C.Oosthuizen / Chadwick

 

2. Bismark / A.Strauss / Chiliboy / D.Fourie / C.Visagie / Burden / Ntumbeni / Cooper

 

3. Jannie / Mujati / Coenie / Malherbe / M.v/d Merwe / F.Kirsten / R.de Klerk

 

4/5. Etzebeth / Bekker / Steph du Toit / Willemse / Elstadt / JA Marais / Q.Roux / Bresler / Flip / Peet Marais / R.Botha / D.Bulbring / Roodt / J.du Plessis / E.Oosthuizen / C.Wegner

 

6/7/8. Coetzee / Kolisi / Elstadt / Vermeulen / CJ Stander / A.Botha / Brussouw / Louw / Alberts / Daniel / D.Potgieter / Rhodes / v/d Walt / Hattingh / Whiteley / Carr / Stegman / J.Potgieter / Koster / Kriel / Minnie / Cook


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1950
RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 05:40:44

I realise this is a pecking order and is your thoughts on it so there is no right or wrong but realistically, a lot of players you have mentioned will not even come into the equation. A lot will have to go right for them (and wrong for others) if they were to even get a shoe in.

 

Tyler Fisher - Is this the kid from Westville boys who has a brother that is also a decent player? He might be a really good player in years to come but at this stage, he has not even been tested in CC as far as I am aware. Maybe I am wrong. No doubt with his mind on the prize and surrounding himself with the right people we may see him make it all the way but 2013 is about 2 or 3 years premature in my opinion.

 

You have JJ Engelbrecht ahead of Jordaan in both wing and centre positions. Reality on performances dictates Jordaan is in a slightly different league to Engelbrecht at the moment. I dont wana get involved in more name calling with you [removed] because its rugby time now but in all honesty mate, why do you like Engelbrecht this much? He has really been a disappointment since debuting for the Boks.

 

I am not sure how you have structured your loosies but would you really put Daniel under Kolisi at this stage? Would you really not consider Fourie over Kolisi? Would Rhodes really deserve a look in when he is much the same as Jacques Potgieter. I thought Louw was really good for the Boks this year. Would he not be higher up the pecking order?

 

At 9, Hougaard has been a proven failure there this year. Lets hope he turns that around in 2013 because he is definately one of our best prospects but based on form in the position, I dont believe he can be 1st in line to take the Bok 9 jumper. Reinach and Van Zyl are surely playing better than him?

 

at 15, and I realise you mention age factor but Ludik has a world cup in him so he is not that old. Would he not be better placed than at least Beyers to take the jersey.


mozart

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RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 07:35:59

Hardly worth commenting on....close to lunacy really.


clevermike

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RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 07:59:35

[removed]

I really think that there will always be serious debate about this kind of pecking order- - since it can be based on two different scenarios - namely -

*   potential of players to develop in future; or

*  actual performances of players who are already plasying on international, Super 15 or even CC levels.

There may also be a tendency to mix the two scenarios up and that may in fact be another route to follow.   However, there is a diffiiculty with that since potential players may have all the physical requirements - but lack in one major aspect - namely what I call ball sense (skills and reading of games) and instinct.   The latter ability makes the final difference between the level players can perform in - especially in key positions that ultimately determine the success or otherwise of matches.   This means that physical ability can take a player some way to reach the national sides - while others will never reach that level and their careers would probably be ending on Super Series level or even CC level.  Ultimately it is a mixture of physical and skills combined that determine whether a player will be selected to play on the highest international level.

The ultimate test will always be how can potential be translated into skillfiul performances on the field of play.   There is in performances also another factor and that is called fighting spirit (crudely known as mongrel) - some players have all the physical attributes and even the skills - but if they lack fighting spirit - they will never make the grade insofar as performances are concerned.     Be it as it may - the ultimate selection is a mixture between physicality, skills and fighting spirit and that would determine on which level players will ultimately perform.

The other important issue is how can a player progress to the highest level of play.   Most playes starts their playing career on Under 19, Under 20 or Under 21 level and progress from there through CC and Super 15 to  Springbok level.   There are exceptional cases like Etzebeth who played on Under 20 level and jumped the next level and played Super Rugby and Springbok rugby before he ever played on CC level.   There are also late developrs or players that missed the junior level altogether and get their first chances on Vodacom and CC levels - a typical example being De Allende.

Based on the above the potential development of playes will always be influenced by the ultimate determiner for selection - namely sustained performance by players.    This is where we as enthusiasts missed the boat completely.    In some cases the thing is that we abuse the saying "class ins permanent - form is temporary" and justify lack of form over a sustained perfiod as a mirage.   The experienced players are often enough put on a pedestal and regarded as above criticism when their performances are anything but satisfactory.   The list is virtually endless - players like Morne Steyn is heavily criticized for poor performance while players like Francois Steyn and Hougaard are above criticism and do not do anything wong.

Be is as it may - we must realize that of the hundreds of players who start off playing on Junior levels only a very small percentage will ever reach international level.    However, back to the pecking order as provided above.   A very substantial number of players in the pecking order had average or even poor performances in 2012 and will have to show drastic improvement in perfromances in 2013 to show that they can be candidates for selection.    There always will be arguments about performance evaluation - some use stats to determine evaluation - but tha is not really the alpha and omega and not a realistic  indicator in the final [removed]ysis.  

I would not even attempt to do a pecking order at this stage - since in my case the sustained performance criterium will be the final determinator of the order.   This may not in all cases be fair as well - especially in cases like the one of Taute (who for years only played at full back) - where he performed unsuccessfully at center for a limited number of games and then written off completely by some of us.   He may yet have the ability to improve his center performances - but unless he gets more playing time to allow a sound judgement opportunity - he would not ever attain a sound basis for selection in the position he really is not used to play in.   Taute himself prefers to play at full back and it is unlikely that he would get enough playing time to ever determine whether he would make the grrade as a successfull center

In essence the following players on the pecking order will have a lot to prove in 2013 if they ever want to succeed on higher level since sustained high level performances in 2012 was not maintained over a reasonable peropd or they had no opportunity to prove that they can perform on higher levels than the junior level:   In some cases sustained performance was an issue as well - they played well in some games and less so in more games:-

  15.        U.Beyers 

   14/11.  JJ. Engelbrecht/ Mjekevu / Sithole / Helberg / Volmink

   13.        Taute / JJ.Engelbrecht / Howard / Serfontein / de Allende / JP du Plessis / Sadie / Dries Swanepoel / Tyler Fisher

   12.        Frans Steyn / Serfontein / Whitehead / de Allende / Frans Venter

   10.        Swiel / Pollard / Fouche / Catrakillis

    9.        Hougaard / Reinach / v/Zyl / Groom / Schreuder / Duvenhage

    1.         Nkanyane / Mellet

    2.        Chiliboy / C.Visagie / Burden

    3.         F.Kirsten / R.de Klerk

    4/5.      Steph du Toit / Willemse / JA Marais / Peet Marais / R.Botha / D.Bulbring

    6/7/8.    Kolisi /  A.Botha / Brussouw / Rhodes / v/d Walt / Hattingh

One would like to see by May how the pecking order is affected by sustained performances and to measure the order against the actual selections made by Meyer for the June 2013 tests.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8923
RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 12:25:34

KKK I did not expect any comment from an ignorant twat like you. If it was up to you, you would have the Bok side filled with a bunch of geriatrics.

 

 


mozart

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RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 12:28:35

Sure....for example I'd have Louw ahead of Kolisi ....and I'd have Jean ahead of Whitehead. You say Jean is slowing down but Whitehead was caught by Spies in 30 metres with a 10 metre head start.


Saffex

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RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 12:33:49

Whitehead represents the future, Jean proved he was done some time ago. Spies has serious pace, he would have done the same to Jean.

 

Kolisi is better than Louw, watch this space and I rate Louw highly. Kolisi was one of the standouts last year and Meyer leaving out smacked of incompetency, which his results confirmed.


mozart

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RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 12:38:49

Well Spies may run the 100 metres in 10.5 .....but those stats suggest Whitehead would run the 100 metres in15. No serious rugby person would replace Jean with Whitehead.


Saffex

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Posts: 8923
RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 12:44:52

Jean is history and should not feature as a Bok any longer, if he does we will continue to produce the results of 2012.

 

Its Frans for 12, with Serfontein as back-up


Saffex

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Posts: 8923
RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 13:04:17

Boklog, for a start its a pecking order so chances are those down the list will not seriously feature, however they are talented enough to impress enough to be included as the surprise package as it were.

 

Tyler Fisher, the SA Schools outside centre star is a prime example. Yes he has an older brother who was in the Sharks U21 set-up. Tyler is in the Baby Bok squad and good enough to make the impression Etzebeth, Steph du Toit and Serfontein did.

 

I have always liked JJ and the few breaks he executed in the S15 last year confirmed my faith in him. Its a close call with Jordaan. For me JJ has the physical edge.

 

Kolisi was one of our best loosies last year, he was awesome and it was a travisty of justice that Meyer did not select him at any point. Kolisi over Daniel and Fourie anyday - no contest. Kolisi with ball in hand is one of those freaks that always seems to beat the first defender - he has that Bismark about him. Kolisi on last years form, should have been our starting 6.

 

Rhodes offers more rugby intelligence than J Potgieter.

 

The take on Hougaard being poor at 9 last year is the biggest load of crap I have ever witnessed. It was just another poor performance by Meyer in the way he handled one of our stars. Hougaard has played 9 all his life and proved at times to be the best 9 in the game. A player does just not lose that ability.....a few charge downs and a pathetic kick and chase gameplan had Hougaard relegated to wing. It was pathetic player management. Hougaard will rub Meyer's nose in it this S15. Class is permanent and Meyer did Hougaard and Bok rugby a disservice in the way he treated him and we wonder why we only won 57%

 

I like Ludik but at 28 now its almost too late and I am looking for clout at 15. Ludik is very solid, he lacks that real spark.....so I'd rather invest in players who can really set up a counter attack from the back


clevermike

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RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 13:58:02

I really like the debate between Mozart and [removed] in this case.  Who has speed and who not.   They say that Spies runs the 100 meters in 10,5 seconds, that Whitehead would take 15 seconds - but guess who would take 20 seconds?  My guess its a close call between Francois Steyn and Jannie Du Plessis.   It really was a pain to see how Steyn was ambling at half speed when he got the ball in backline play in 2012 - ambling straight to the nearest defender and crashballing.    The way he played a loosie like Marcel Coetzee whould have been better than he was.

Then there was the debate on Hougaard - who had a brain implosion and played like rubbish in 2012 - but [removed] refused to even see where he was rubbish.   Blinkers - blinkers - blinkers.   Only see wrong in players you insist on seeing wrong in.

End result - Hougaard realized himself that he buggered up and started a programme to get better.   Hopefully he does - hence the need that he must prove that he should be considered for higher level selection.   He has a very good chance to come right - since his deficiencies has nothing to do with physicality and everything to do with skills enhancement.   Steyn - the jury is out on that one - he has a two pronged deficiency - he must get rid of the lard that slowed him down and secondly he must revive the skills he had early in his playing career and was totally absent in the games he played in in 2012   Recuperation programme really necessary - but outcome uncertain.


clevermike

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RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 14:19:31

[removed]

Just one question - did you watch any of the CC games Engelbrecht played in after his release from the Springbok squad?


Saffex

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RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 17:52:38

Yes Mike I saw them all and your take on JJ is about as pathetic as your take on Frans's pace.

 

If Frans is that slow, how did he manage to keep up with JP in the sprints in training a few weeks back huh, shows how much you know


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12542
RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 18:29:06

[removed]

Firstly - Engelbrecht put up a patheric show i the CC games he played in and everybody but you wil agree with me on that one.

Good for Francois Steyn - Spencer may just be able to get him to play good rugby again.  Probaby lost some lard whilst he was injured and also did some real running exercises recently.   So improvement noted.  Hope he can improve his game as well.  He was patheric last year and did silch in the tests he played in.  Will be easy to improve on that though.  


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8923
RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 19:57:59

Well Mike given your ignorance on centre play is confirmed by the fact that most will agree that Frans was damn good for the Boks in 2012, evidenced by the fact that he and JP received the highest player ratings while he was playing - which goes to show how much you know about centre play.

 

Any comments you have on JJ mirror the same [removed] you bang on about Frans and Taute at centre. There is no doubt in my mind that you know [removed] all about centre play - I think only Moffie is a darker spot than you when it comes to centres - no-one can surpass telling us Fourie was poor and that useless Adi was great - but you do come a close second


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12542
RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 21:36:56

[removed]

If there is one thing that I like about you - is your loyalty.  You really are loyal to players - once you have decided on them as Springboks and then you stick with them through thick and thin.   They make complete fools of themselves in playing - but you see othing wrong in them - because you have decided that the rubbish they do is in fact good play.  If anyone else does the same they are condemned - but your picks never.  

You read up somewhere that what they doo is best cebnter practice and you then justify tour approbation on that.   That they do nothing as to contribute to constrxutive backline play means nothing to you.

Let me explain further - More Steyn stood deep in the pocket - normally kicked the ball away aimlessly and his team suffers.   So he is useless.  Francois Steyn when he gets the ball - amble along at halfpace straight at an opponent and scrahablled making an average of 1,5 meters beyond the gain line - never draws in defenders - never pass or off-load in tackle situations and accpording to you he is marvelous, whilst I think he is mediocre.

Engelbrecht played like [removed] in the CC games - if he failed on CC level - how the hell can he perform on higher level - yet that is acceptable to you.   He is not a centrs arse - he is a wing.  

Taute is a full back - not a center.    His performances on test level was saitisfactory - whilst he produced nothing substantial other than crashballing -  I forgot he made two ill-timed passes to players in worst positions than him and in both cases we ultimately lost the ball.   Meyer and eveuy thinking person thinks he should play at full back - but [removed] says he is a perfect first choice center for the Springboks.  

In your book I may no nothing about center play - but I am not a bloody fool.   I can see when things are wrong and our backlie play in 2012 was atrocious.   I have a suggestion for Steyn. Engelbrecht and Taaute - they should watch the video clip on Swiel and try to undestand the concept of  skills and reding of games.- because all they have is bulk and they display no skill,  Maybe they would realize that running at pace counts - that effective passing is a key - that off-loading of balls in tackle situations  is a real assett and that in playing rugby you have to use your brain as well.

[removed] and the bulk players with no skills - what a show.


Saffex

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Posts: 8923
RE: The Bok pecking order
January 31, 2013, 23:19:08

Nope Mike you are wrong, I dont show blind loyalty to players. I used to be a massive Spies fan, do you see him in any of my sides today?

 

JJ showed me some class breaks in 2012, his first year of really getting game time. I saw more than enough to be excited by his prospects, I therefore maintain that faith going into his second season. I am not stupid or fickle enough to discard him after one season, especially considering he was one of many to make an impact in 2012.

 

The lad is 23 for crying out loud, is a class act and will prove it and no amount of stamping your feet and feeding me complete bull[removed] about him will change my view of him, just as my view on Taute at centre will not change. If in 2 or 3 seasons time these players have not made the grade at the highest level, then fair enough I'd concede they failed.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12542
RE: The Bok pecking order
February 01, 2013, 03:35:31

[removed]

Your viewpoints are appreciated.  Yes we should watch them play over a longer period - but it is a competitive world they live in.  Often enough they get limited chances to go to the top and they must use them to the maximum.   I must admit I thought that Engelcrecht, Taute and Francois Steyn would really make a difference in the backline and looked forward to their performances.   I really was disqappointed in what they delivered.

A further problem for Taute is that it is extremely unlikely that he would get much chance to play at 13 this year.   I would have liked to see him play next to a player like De Allende - who to my mind showed a lot of skill in the games I saw him play.   That could have helped Taute in his development as a center.   But Coetzee is married to play De Jongh at 13 - even after constant failures over nearly 2 years.  

I really believe that Taute was done a disservice in being moved to center and he did not perform well enough for the Springboks because of lack of recent  experience  in that position.   So his experience as center will be further limited by the present playing environment and that would not help in his development as a center.   Maybe - just maybe the situation could change during the season - but for the moment Taute is going to play at full back.

Despite your perception - Engelbrecht really spoiled his image later in 2012.   He used to play at wing and he was only moved to 13 as a result of the poor performances of Sadie when playing for the Bulls.   I can remember his strength in making some breaks, but those breaks did not really set up point scoring opportunities for the Bulls.   I think in general his lack of experience as a center contributed to the problems he had on CC level.   One only has to look at two important games of the Bulls - where he really becamme unstuck on CC level - namely the one against WP and the one against the Sharks.  In both he was seriously disappointing. 

Maybe this year will work out better for all three players.   I frankly think we need Francois Steyn to perform much better than he did in 2012 - he is young enough to be still an essential player for SA - but he was indeed disappointing.   He produced much less than I expected.    Maybe Spencer will make a difference in his playing style and bring out the best in him.  We desperately need him to perform at the top of his capaciity - and I am looking forward to how he shaped up in the Sharks backline.     After all De Villiers is definitely past his sell-by date and if De Villiers perform better than Steyn - like he did in 2012 - it is no complement to Steyn at all.


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