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3466 Topic: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 05:44:12

Myself and Saffex cant seem to agree on who should be the Bok flyhalf based on past season/s efforts. We both agree that they are fine players but I think that if Lambie was afforded the opportunities Goosen is, his natural talents will come through.

 

Cheetahs play to a very helter skelter game plan. All out attack. Dont worry that the opposition will score many tries against you due to lack of defensive structures, just make sure you score more than them as was evident in the Cheetahs v Hurricanes last year. No defence going on there. Just all out attack from both teams hence the ridiculously high scoreline. Goosen is given free reign to play a natural game and he thrives in it.

 

Lambie on the other hand plays to structures that the Sharks have in place and he has gotten them to many finals/play off games in both CC and Super rugby. He is a natural talent but for the Boks, it was evident that he was made to play to a "Morne Steyn" game plan that did not suit him.

 

Goosen was gifted free licence to run the depleted Aussies ragged as the whole nation was calling for Morne to be dropped and a running game plan to be implemented. Had Lambie started that game at 10, I predict the score would have been much the same and even 1 or 2 more tries being scored.

 

I simply dont believe Goosen would add the value Lambie does in a structured game plan. At least not yet. I do not want Goosen coached out of his natural game plan but he needs to mature a bit more. As is evident with Cheetahs fluctuating results, everytime they play a team with exceptional defence and equally good attack, they seem to come unstuck.

 

My vote is for Lambie to continue on and Goosen to get slightly bigger and stronger and mature a bit. At the end of all this, SA will have two world class flyhalves!

What do you all think?


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7799
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 07:32:16

 Lambie is a much more proven test player. Goosen is a brilliant runner and has a longer boot, but his defence isn't as good, nor is his goal kicking. For such a young player Lambie is very mentally strong.  Both these guys are best at 10, so for once we could have alternatives at 10. If things work out right they will push each other to higher levels.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10904
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 09:05:18

Spot on Boklogic and Moz. One cant emphasise enough that Goosen this year is again under 21. He was injured twice last eyar and was I believe not yet ready, as an under 20, for senior rugby. 

I would do what the abs do with Cruden- give some time off the bench at best but no more than that. I only hope he gets through 213 unscathed. Personally I would limit his senior rugby  this year and let him work on his conditioning. He is a huge prospect  so why risk it when we have the very talented and match ready Lambie available.

Given the amount of rugby played via Super 15, test and Currie Cup it is ideal that we have two class flyhalves around. Something ou snapster cant grasp.

I don think Goosen will have problems playing to a structure as he has a good rugby brain on his head. Given his huge boot he could play a kicking game if needed. However one hopes that we get  a better balance in our play this year and that our attacking skills improve.

The point is simple - Lambie is able and ready. Goosen needs another year. Like a few other youngsters he will really come on stream in 2014. The year the Boks take charge of world rugby. Please prepare yourselves for that ab fans - you revert to your traditional role of second best to the Boks - the natural order of things. Bwahahhahahaha

 


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 09:08:47

 Exactly Moz. Well said. Nothing wrong with having 2 world class 10's. NZL have 3. Aussies have 2. Boks need to get with the times.

Lambie is currently a better option I feel which will do a world of good for Goosen as now he can not rest on his laurels and what ppl say about him. He needs to work harder than ever to prove he is better and this means working on his physical condition and defence.

Competition keeps guys sharp and thats what we have lacked for so long. Lambie was the epitomy of composure in his first season. Rare for a kid to come in and be that cool and calm under super rugby pressures. I want nothing more to see him get an extended run at 10 because I believe he will make that 10 jersey his own.


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 09:14:47

Actually ... it's a no brainer. As talented as Goosen is and for that matter Janjties, Lambie is the man to take the Bokke forward. He is aggressive and plays on the front foot. He get's his backline away nicely and is ellusive with good footwork, great balance and vision.  

His little out of hand chip kicks around the fringes and to touch is a definite advantage, especially if the coach wants to play that moron Hougaard at 9.

He has it all.

The Bokke haven't had a decent 10 for quite some time. Steyn never did it for me and was just filling the gap till the coach saw the light and gave Lambie his rightful jersey at 10.

I just hope that the new coach doesn't force his Bulls style of play down upon Patrick ... smothering his awesome talent.

Now if we could only convince those in charge to go fetch Kockett and bring him back for the 9 jersey.. I'm sure, with a little pressure we'll get the right guys selected eventually. 

Awesome though to have backup like Jantjies and Goosen.

 

 


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 09:36:03
The danger is that Pat Lambie pays the price for his versatility and becomes the next Brent Russell or Gaffie du Toit.

I think young Goosen looks an outstanding talent but right now Lambie is our best flyhalf. Unfortunately he's also our best fullback and potentially our best inside centre as well. I'm also sure Pat Lambie is good enough to excel in any of those positions and he could be our very own James O' Connor but I'd much rather see Lambie settle in one position and I do think his best position is flyhalf.

Having said all that, one also has to look at the alternatives and there aren't too many SA fullbacks (or inside centres for that matter) putting up their hands so perhaps it makes more sense to play Lambie at fullback while we at least have someone as gifted as Goosen to fill in for him at flyhalf. I do think Lambie is our best flyhalf but there's also a case for getting all your best talent onto the pitch which is why you'll see the Aussies chop and change their team to accommodate Kurtley Beale, Quade Cooper and James O'Connor.

I don't think this choice is as clear cut as some seem to think and while I would like Lambie in his best position, I'll be happy enough with either Lambie or Goosen at flyhalf . . . as long as we don't have a plodder like Zane Kirchner at fullback or a non-tackling nancy like Wynand Olivier at inside centre. I'd rather have Lambie out of position at fullback or inside centre than either of those scenarios.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11906
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 09:57:57

Personally I don't think anybody should play around by forcing players into positions they perform less well in than in their preferred position - the key here is that you must play the best player in each position.    Examples are virtually endless since experimenting with players frequently occur in 2012 and just to name a few -

*   Pietersen is an excellent wing and an average center - in the latter position his talents are wasted;

*   Taute is a top full back and a very average to poor center;

*   Lambie performs well at full back but he is an excellent flyhalf; and

*    Despite a slump in form in 2012 - Hougaard is a potentially good scrummie and a useless wing.

I definitely prefer Lambie as flyhalf and am one of the member that has all along supported the idea of having two top flyhalfs in Lambie and Goosen competing for selection.   Despite all Saffex's ravings i think you can play them on a rotational basis and when one is staring - the other can be on the bench.  

As to the issue of full back - the question that will have to be settled in Super 15 will be who would bethe top full back candidates.    Based on his performances since 2009 I believe that it would be Taute - but am also an admirer of Ludick.   I do agree with Kirchner being a plodder - but we must wait and see what happens and don't play players on potential. 

Problem is that Lambie would get no playing time at full back this Super Series - so he would only have had some minor game time from the bench for nearly a year.   How can his full back play be evaluated objectively under such circumstances.

So my vote goes to rotqte Lambie and Goosen at flyhalf  as starting players or bench players. 

 


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 10:19:01

Nicely put, Jalapeno!!

That’s not perhaps on a “stieek” is it?

Chumps like Kirschner, Hougaard, Olivier and even Spies should not be playing in the green and gold.

Nor  should the likes of Greyling and his Bulls tight head mate (I forget his name now) come anywhere near the Bok camp.

I’ve always thought of the Bok jersey as something special. The best in the country should be wearing it and only the best.

Too many second rate players have been brought into the mix of late. I understand that we were riddled with injuries and that selections weren’t made easy because of it … but let’s face it, playing the likes of Hougaard at wing instead of Mvovo was stupid. Chalking up Kirschner instead of Taute at fullback really annoyed me … and then … playing him at 12/13 had me muttering all kinds of profanity by day’s end.

Getting the best of our boys on the park, even if slightly out of position is a darn sight better than having these  other bozos embarrassing us and themselves.Obviously within reason.

The idea of possibly playing Patrick at 12 is an interesting thought. It would allow Goosen in at 10 and with Kockett at 9 … that would be exciting.

Having an additional kicking option on the flyhalves outside is always something I fancied.

I like Kockett as I'm sure you've noticed and wouldn't hesitate to chalk him up in my starting 15. .

Who would you have at 13 … I have never really been a fan of Jean De Villiers. I always thought of him as the cause of a lackluster Bok back line.


 


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 10:36:32

"Who would you have at 13 … I have never really been a fan of Jean De Villiers. I always thought of him as the cause of a lackluster Bok back line."

 

Capone, at the risk of upsetting the likes of ou Maaik and Saffex, I'd go with Juan de Jongh as my Bok #13 while Jaque Fourie is unavailable. De Jongh has a good step and he has great thrust. Not entirely convinced by his defence but I have no idea why he gets so much stick on this board.

 

I always liked Rory Kockott but he may well be lost to us now. I see he's muttering about playing for France if he gets the chance. I like the look of the new Sharks scrummie Cobus Reinach and if he continues to improve he'll be a strong candidate for the Bok #9 jersey.


PS I think you meant Werner Kruger? Yes, another of Meyer's Blue Bull pets who's been found at at the top level. Jannie isn't the world's greatest tighthead by any stretch but he's the best we've got.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 10:58:15

 Jalapeno, I reckon we have some good prospects at 15 without needing to play Lambie there. Taute and Ludik are very capable manne..

 

What about JP at 15? Not sure I would wana take him off the wing as he is good there but he did start his rugger at 15..

 

What about:

 

15 JP. Pietersen / 22 J. Taute

14 R. Rhule

13 P. Jordaan / 22 J. Taute

12 F. Steyn

11 B. Habana

10 P. Lambie /  21 J. Goosen

9 R. Kockett / 20 C. Reinach

Taute can cover centre wing or fullback. If a centre or wing is injured, JP can shift there and Taute cover 15?? Hopefully Hougaard will go away and find the form he had in 2011!! We have so many others that are knocking on the door but cant find a place like Ludik, De Villiers and co...


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11906
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 11:38:28

Capone

A bit late - but welcome to the Board.   I like what you wrote very much and debates with you will be a very good expereience.

 I am delighed by the level of discussion here - and share a lot with what Capone and Jalap said.  

Taking inot account performances at center last year - Jordaan was way ahead of other contenders for the no 13 jersey.   It was not only the tries scored by him - but also the tries he had a major hand in that counts.   No problem on defence either.

Looking at the other centers I am really worried about the situation.   Steyn played only two games for the Sharks and produced very little of note.- in the tests he played in he was at best average.   I dislike intensely the selection of players on reputation and not form - and if Steyn wants to make sure of future Springbok selection - he will have to up his game considerably in Super 15 - otherwise he would be a bad selection at 12.   I have my doubts about De Villiers as well - at 32 he is about on the upper age limit for competitive rugby and he is also getting injured more frequently - common amongst older players who need longer recovery periods as well.   Be it as it may - De Villiers was our best 12 this year by a considerable margin, but really ineffective at 13.   Of the younger guns I am impressed by what I saw of De Allende on CC level - so he seems to be eventually a contender for the no 12 jersey.   

I look at Taute as a top full back in future.  I would add Ludick to that list as well.

Insofar as scrummie is concerned - Saffex will have a seizure when he sees what was written about Hougaard above.   I am not sure that he would be able to up his game in Super 15 - if he does - so be it.   I have a sneaking regard for Reinach and Groom - and they should be considered if Hougaard keeps on failing.

However, I still think the Super 15 will serve another purpose - the series will separate th wheat from the chaff insofar as Springbok selection is concerned.   Top grade  performances would soldify claims of players to be selected. 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 11:48:19

Its an easy one for me. While I think Lambie is a great flyhalf, Goosen is better and he does not have the versatility to play anywhere else as flyhalf is the only position he plays. Apart from his prolific talent, his real strength is his nerves of steel. Goosen could go down as one of the best Bok 10's ever, he is that good.

 

Lambie is equally good at 10 and 15, if we are to challenge the world we need Lambie and Goosen on the field, not wasting one of them on the bench - thats just a poor use of the resources we have at your disposal. So Lambie would be my 15 and he would specialise there with the ability to provide cover at 10. Lambie is not physical enough for 12, much like de Jongh is nowhere near physical enough for 13. Its a big mans game in the centres at test level.

 

Modern centres need to have skill and the ability to impose themselves physically - these days the tight defences and lack of space dictates that the physicality plays a greater role - hence the fact that de Jongh will never make a test 13, he cant impose himself in contact both on attack and in defence. He can dance but he cant bash. 80% of test rugby is bashing - thats why de Jongh went awol against England.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10904
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 12:06:37

Taute has the makings of a very good fullback, better than Lambie in my book. Taute, Ludik and Kirchner and possibly Joe are the fullback options.

Centers in the mix for Bok selection will be Jean, Frans, Jordaan and I think Allende could make a statement. Du plessis might break through as well. Next year you might have Serfontein, Howard, Small Smith coming through. Then we have Sadie - can he reignite his career? De Jongh will need to improve his distribution skills to get a Bok spot but hopefully he will do better in a more attacking Stormers backline.

Wings resources are fine with Habana and JP. Add in Rhule, Allende possibly, Van der Heever, Mvovo and JJ.

Scrummies - Hougaard, Kockett, Pienaar and Reinach. Also nothing too shabby re Sarel, Groom and Vermaak.  Huge competition for this spot.

Flyhalves - Lambie, Goosen, Catrakillis and Jantjes.

As often lamented by many we need a proper backline coach. Can Loubscher perform the necessary? Very inexperienced etc.

Surely out of this group the Boks should have a really good backline.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10904
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 12:14:08

Snapster I agree Lambie is propably not quite physical enough for 12 although it is a possibility if there were no other options for him. Likewise I think at 15 Taute seems to me to be more likely to do damage and to have greater stopping power at 15.

However the die is cast for 2013 and Lambie will play flyhalf for the sharks and the Boks this year. The matter can be assessed again at the end of the year if a wrong turning has been made. Playing guys in their preferred and seemingly best positions looks right for now. 

 


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 12:14:31

"80% of test rugby is bashing"

 

I think Barritt and Tuilagi demonstrated in the win against the All Blacks that it doesn't have to be.

 

Was Tim Horan any bigger than de Jongh?


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10904
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 12:21:28

Horan rooitwit played years ago. Since then guys have got bigger. Today 100kg centers are not huge but commonplace. SBW is 110 kg.

However, as always, its how a guy performs. De Jongh, although he has skills, seldom makes an impact. Now it just may also be because the Stormers backline as a whole didnt make an impact. BUT De Jongh's distribution skills have not been good and he often goes very quiet.

What will be of interest is too see how Jean and Juan go in a team with a greater attacking outlook.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 12:30:18

The Pom performance against NZ was one of those freak tests, a one off. We know full well that Barritt is hardly the creative/flair type of centre, he has built his reputation on sound defence and solid enough on attack. That test showing was a one off for Barritt, for he has made little impression prior to that. He is at best a solid centre. One thing we can be sure of is that Barritt will not be ripping test defences apart, he cant even do that for Sarries

 

Tuilagi is all about the bash, that's what he does at 112kg and why so many of my Pom mates cant stand him - that coupled with the fact that he is not English. I rate him, I think he is great, he can come play for the Boks anyday

 

Horan played ages ago and was an inside centre and weighed over 90kg


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 12:34:23

Baboon-ou, which part of "shut your stupid cakehole" did you not understand?

 

Don't bother answering, I don't expect you've suddenly grown a pair of balls. Just please direct your incessant yapping at someone who gives even the smallest toss about you or your whiny opinions.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10904
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 12:36:51

Thanks snapster that hopefull clears up ou rooitwit little misunderstanding.

He is sounding very petulant today! More so than usual!


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 13:16:53

Thank you Clevermike. Appreciate the welcome.

Your insighful post provokes thought and I too look forward to debates with you and the rest of the boys.

Coming aboard here has me regularly sticking my nose in to see what's been posted ... in turn I'm letting my work fall behind ... forgot how addictive this can be. .

I'll sort the tiresome chores out on my desk and return to chat a bit.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5810
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 14:47:54

goosen or lambie??? i like goosen, but wether hes physically ready is the big question, cos i have doubts about him handaling the physical intensity at spXV level.

but assuming that both lambie & goosen are fit and in form, then i would go with goosen, he has amazing xfactor presence at flyhalf that i dont get from lambie. thats not to say lambie isnt as good, cos i rate lambie big time at 10, but i just think that goosens all round flyhalf game is better. not by a margin that leaves lambie in his wake, but enough to be convincing.

i beleieve that lambie is a world class at  flyhalf and fullback, i would have no problems what so ever playing him at either 10 or 15, but if gossen was available, then he would obviously be my fullback.

i agree with the comments that say lambies not physical enough for the centers, thats not to say that physicality is the most important preresquite for center, cos james oconner aka bieber is the biggest superstar utility i have seen in a long long time, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 he can do it all and betetr then most regulars at that position.
but anyways. lambies set skills and his physivcality are not conducive at making him a good or effective center.

i guess having lanbie and goosen rotate at No10 would have its bennifits, but im sure both players are competitve enough to want to be starting more often than not, so this would drive them more than usual in delivering their best performance.
i also dont think it would sit very well with either of them, especially lambie who is the senior of the two, lambie never looked happy to be usedin  the way meyer and his infinite wisdom saw fit in 2012.

but at the ned of the date, theres not a lot of solid options available for the Boks at 15, so i dont know why lambie and the 15 arent a match mad in Bok heaven.

ive siad it plenty of times before, but jp pieterson would make an awesome 13 and the Boks have enough solid talent to play someone else on the wing.

my dream Bok backline with the current stars if all fit would be,,,

9 f hougaard, 10 j gossen, 11 b habana, 12 f steyn, 13 jp pieterson, 14 j taute, 15 p lambie
20 r pienaar, 21 e janties, 22 g aplon


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 14:59:48

 Goosen will become a better player than Lambie if he is not allready. 

Only present concern with Goosen is that he had to bad injuries last year, so can he play a whole season?

Anyway most teams have 2 quality flyhalfs on the squad. If both were to get injured it would be disasterous, this is why they cant both start at 10 and 15. Who would be called up if their was an injury- Morne Steyn or Elton Jantjies- sorry neither are good enough. 

We have got lots of cover at fullback, even some of our wings like JP and Habana could cover at fullback. Kirchner is solid if not great and then their are others like Aplon, Joe Pieterson etc etc.

-

Having 2 quality flyhalfs, the most important position on the field is essential. 

The boks could have injuries to many positions like in the loose forwards, and it would not effect us given our depth. 

-

Goosen to start, Lambie on the bench.  (This is all dependent on how injury free Goosen is during and after the Suoer15)


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 15:49:33

Not sure I agree with you.

Kirchner’s … a solid / great player?? You're kidding …. right??

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaa. I think not. He’s an average club player at best and should never have been allowed to taint the Bok 15 jersey. He brings nothing to the mix. No more than a quota selection if you ask me.

You seem confused. Aplon doesn’t have what it takes to step up to test level while Habana and Pietersen covering at fullback???  ……… oh dear.

You do know that we are talking rugby here … right?

We forget so easily that a Bok is something special. Accepting mediocrity is a recipe for disaster. We saw that in the last world cup and let’s face it, last year’s picks didn’t exactly improve the situation.   

It’s time to bring all this nonsense to an end and select the best this country has to offer. Cast aside the Pieter De Villiers era and look toward 2015.   

Taute is the right sort ... Jordaan is made of the right stuff ... Lambie is a massif talent and having him sit on the bench would be an absolute travesty.

We should go fetch Kockett before he’s lost to us.

Get rid of the Flip vd Merwes, the Werner Krugers and Frans Hougaards and bring in boys we can be proud of.      


bluebok

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1148
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 16:06:43

I say play Goosen, I don't care how old he is, if he is good enough, he is good enough. He is the more talented player. Play Lambie at Fullback, with Kirchner or Taute as cover. Seriously, when you have the potential of a Dan Carter then why not use it? I know I stand very much alone on this, but while Lambie is very good, I just don't think he is the uber talent people make him out to be. The more exposure Goosen gets at 10, the better. As i have said in other threads, he still has another season of Super Rugby, which is the closest thing to test rugby, to gain experience. And he already has one season of Super Rugga and some test rugby under his belt. He is ready, with proper player management and another 4-6kg's of muscles.....and stand back Dan Carter!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 16:25:24

Sas and bluebok you are spot on, Goosen is the best flyhalf and physically he will be fine at the highest level. He was 88kg last season, chances are he is 90 odd this year.

 

You are spot on regarding Lambie at 15, why on earth would a coach leave Lambie on the bench as a back up 10 when he is equally good at 15 and we are short of a quality test 15.

 

It is beyond my comprehension how anyone could leave Lambie on the bench - it smacks of the decisions made by our Bok coaches and we wonder why we only have a 57% record. We have a poor record because we fail to get the best 15 on the field - leaving Lambie on the bench is a prime example - madness and I just dont get it. Lambie is equally good at 10 and 15, we have Goosen at 10, therefore its obvious to play Lambie at 15 - hellooooooooo, not waste him on the bench


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7799
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 16:53:57

As another citizen of the  Windy City, and another corpse on the Board....welcome Capone.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11906
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 17:15:35

Saffex

We have been over and oer on this one.  I think that we must alwats play our best sustained performing player in any position.   That creates a problem - by June 2013 Lambe would not have played one full game and full back since June 2012 and he would then have to play on reputation and out of the position he wants to specialize in in future.   You cannot select a player on that basis - it would dumb and Meyer for one would no even consider it.

The competition for full back is tough in any event.   If Taute performs like he used to at full back - he would be hard to leave out of the team.   

The question remains - would you play an unknown quantity instead of your top performer at full back if that is to be on performance in that position over a lengthy period - or would you select a player on reputation only? 

   


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 17:17:23

Capone-

JP Pieterson has played fullback for the Boks when covering injuries and he done well. He actually started his career for the Sharks at fullback -and was only moved to wing because his clearance kick initially was not great.

Many wings are able fullbacks, especially ones that can take the high ball and also a good clearance kick- as with both JP and Habana. Having one of them at 15 would allow JP and Habana to counter attack together. Both are obviously strong runners and can offload in the tackle so they are bound to tear the oppositions defences apart.

Either of them running from the back with space, combining with the other would be lethal.

Many fullbacks can also play wing like Corry Jane for the abs.

James Small played wing and fullback as well. It is common practise that wings and fullbacks can interchange.

-

With regards to Kirchner I have been one of his major critics in the past. Although in 2012 he was pretty solid. He is very strong under the high ball, and scored a few good tries. He is probably the only bull that deserved to be in the squad, bar Hougaard.

Although he did not pass a few times to his outside player to finish a few other tries. I think Aplon would have been a better choice at 15 as he is a better runner and can also pass better as well. 

-

With regards to Taute, I am not sure what people see in this crashball. I must admit I did not watch him play for the Lions, because I do not watch the Lions play given how poor they are. However for the boks all he has done was a few crash balls and gained a few metres, so not sure what sort he is apart of.

Are you refering to his form for the boks or Lions that make him a bok candidate?-

What more of a traversty would it be if both Lambie and Goosen are not available at the same time, then we would revert to accepting mediocrity- the recipe for disaster- of Morne Steyn , Jantjies etc.

Ideally it would be good to have both Lambie/Goose on the pitch, but what if both get injured?

Sure if was a world cup final or the deciding game in a 4 nations where victory meant winning the cup then yes, get them both.

But why take the risk with the only 2 top quality flyhalfs playing the likes of Scotland etc.

 

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 19:31:40

Rubbish Mike, Lambie knows the art of fullback and has played most of his Bok rugby at 15, a few months at 10 for the Sharks playing S15 will not change that.

 

As Bok coach you strive to get the best 15 on the field and where they play at S15 level should not dictate where they have to play for the Boks. These players will play wherever they are required for the Boks and will be proud to do just that.

 

Lambie is required at 15 for the Boks, because Goosen is our best 10. Only a fool would waste Lambie on the bench when we have a fullback position to pin down in the Bok side - its that simple


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 19:38:27

Shark your take on Taute is poor and to conclude that all he did was crashball in incorrect.

Watch the first half of his debut and tell me what he should have done differently or what any other 13 would have done in the same circumstances

 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 20:03:51

In the Australian game many of the bok backs had their best game on attack of the season.

Goosen had an excellent "starting" debut and got his backs into the game. 

-Habana on Tautes outside scored 3 tries and was all over the place on attack. 

-Jean on his inside had probably his best game of the season.

-Kirchner scored an was heavily involved and got a try. 

-

Taute's best chance in open space he knocked the ball on. 

Most of the other times I agree that he was in traffic and not oppertunity for anything but crashballs. But that it is what it is. If players on his inside and outside were having their best games of the season, where was Taute? 

Of all the tries scored Taute was on holiday, no where to be seen. 

-

Even if he was unlucky in positional play on the day then at best it could be said that he was given little oppertunity. However in now way can his performance be considered good, especially when players on his inside(Jean and Goosen had their best games of the season, as did Habana on his outside). 

All Taute brought to the party was a few average crash balls and gained a few milimetres

 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 20:05:52

In the Australian game many of the bok backs had their best game on attack of the season.

Goosen had an excellent "starting" debut and got his backs into the game. 

-Habana on Tautes outside scored 3 tries and was all over the place on attack. 

-Jean on his inside had probably his best game of the season.

-Kirchner scored a try an was heavily involved. (and he is not exactly a great player)

-

Taute's best chance in open space he knocked the ball on. 

Most of the other times I agree that he was in traffic and not oppertunity for anything but crashballs.

But that it is what it is. If players on his inside and outside were having their best games of the season, where was Taute? 

Of all the tries scored Taute was on holiday, no where to be seen. 

-

Even if he was unlucky in positional play on the day then at best it could be said that he was given little oppertunity. However in now way can his performance be considered good, especially when players on his inside(Jean and Goosen) had their best games of the season, as did Habana on his outside. 

All Taute brought to the party was a few average crash balls and gained a few milimetres. Not exactly the dream debut.

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11906
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 20:22:36

Sharkbok

I agree with youabout Taute at 13.   After an excelent two years at full back for the Lions  - during which periofd he scored 109 points on Super abd CC levels - he was used for three full games at 13 - because the Lions was in a jam and had to replace their injured centers.

Taute has masive potential and showed it at full back and Meyer fell for the hype and used him for three games as center .   The experiment to use Taute at 13 was a flop and Meyer ultimately realized that as well.   The only person who does not want to see that is Saffex with his refrain that Goosen must play at 10 - Lambie must play at 15 and Taute must play at 13, remains irrespective of whether these players succeed in the designated positions or not..

There is no way that Lambie is as good a player at full back as he is at flyhalf.  He is a far better player in the latter position - whether at the end of the Super 15 Taute does not make it - I would rather have Ludick at full back and retain Lambie as flyhalf - with the latter position rotating between Lambie and Goosen.   Competition would bring out the best in both.

I think a person must look at the Super 15 performances and  then make up their minds about it.  

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 22, 2013, 23:47:07

Shark that first drop pass did not have him in space and give the kid a break it was his first touch on debut. Habana's tries were not scored from line movements, nor were Louw's or Kirchners. Jean had no part to play in the first 3 tries at all, I never watched past 60 min or so.

 

Jean had no better test than Taute, he dropped a pass, and passed the ball to no-one.

 

Taute was on Goosen's inside when he took that break, had Goosen passed inside Taute would have been over uopposed


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 01:09:32

Saff, you cant just say Goosen IS better than Lambie. He is not. Not saying Lambie is better than Goosen as they are both good players but dont write Lambie off.  We have just seen Goosen play at 10 more and he has been given opportunities that Lambie has not been afforded.

 

To cut a long story short, Lambie is better at 10 and his frame and skillset is best suited to that of a 10. He will show his true class if faith is put in him to do the job. He has been tested at this level. Goosen has not been exposed to nearly the amount of pressure Lambie has.

 

Lambie to take the Boks forward and Goosen to play back up at this stage in his career. That is the best way forward for Bok rugby. In the end, we will have two great flyhalves! Fullback is well covered by Taute, JP, Ludik. With Jordaan, Howard, Serfontein, De Allende and co coming through, we dont need to make a good 15 in Taute convert to a position he is less comfortable and not as good at..


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 01:56:01

 @Boklogic-

The performance of Goosen at flyhalf against Australia was the best of any flyhalf for the boks in years.

He not only was a threat with ball in hand, he got his backline into the game as he spearheaded many attacking oppertuninties. It was the first game that he has started for the boks

We have not yet seen this from Lambie for the boks. Perhaps Goosen just ignores the Meyer gameplan whilst Lambie has sucumbed to becoming a Morne Steyn Clone. In the last test of the year against the English , Lambie probably had his best game at 10 for the boks. Meyer still said before the game in the press that Lambie should play his natural game. 

But having either Lambie or Goosen at 10, is a damn sight better than Morne or Elton Jantjies


Arthur John

Status: Squad member
Posts: 597
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 02:35:57

 15 Taute/Ludik, 14 Pietersen/Rhule, 13.Jordan/Serfontein, 12 Steyn/ OPEN,

11. Habana/Hougaard, 10. Goosen/Lambie, 9. Kockett/Reinach.

 

Blend of experience, youth and talent will see us stand tall for the next WC.

 


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 05:18:38

Sharkbok, if you remember the circumstances around that game Goosen started against Aus, it was the perfect situation for him to come into. Pressure was on Meyer to drop Steyn and had been building for weeks/months. Then it finally got too much and the public wanted a running game. Meyer had to succumb to the pressure. It worked beautifully against a misfiring Aussie outfit. Had Lambie been instructed to run them ragged as Goosen was and the fact that the Aussies were nowhere, he would have produced the same performance if not better.

I dont for a second doubt that. Goosens game that day was never going to be replicated the following week...


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 08:41:46

"As another citizen of the  Windy City, and another corpse on the Board....welcome Capone."

Thank you, Mozart!!

This board seems lively enough and from your posts ... so do you.

It has character and I think I'll enjoy the banter, the rivalry, the off topic disputes and name calling.

Sounds like a big happy family and I'm glad to be a part of it.

Soon see who's who in this zoo!!

 
 


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 09:19:03

Bottom line is that we have at least three flyhalves with great potential and they're all slightly wet behind the ears. 

It’s been a long time since we had this last and it’s great to see. Now it's just a matter of managing them properly ... looking after them ... bringing them to realize their full potential..

Exciting times lie ahead of us if our coach would use his brain and dare to select properly.

I favour Lambie however accept the fact that we need to bring all our talent onto the field.

Da Goose also needs to be included in the mix, obviously, however is limited to the 10 jersey which forces us to slot Lambie in elsewhere.

Just as Jalapeno said ... this is dangerous ground for Lambie but with wisdom it could be overcome and the Bokke could be better off for it.

Personally i do not enjoy Lambie at 15. Especially with Jean De Villiers at 12. We need to get as much ball to our play makers as possible and that won't happen with De Villiers in the mix.

I have always been in favour of a twelve with an educated boot and perhaps this would be the solution.

I just hope that time doesn't bring about the demise of one. It usually does. 

My backline would look something like this (with a tweek here and there of course ... )

9. Rory Kockett

10. Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana

12. Patrick Lambie

13. Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen

15. Jaco Taute

What you boys think of that?


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 09:26:17

Capone, I like your Lambie at 12. This solves alot of issues on attack i think. I would however change that a bit.

9. whoever feeds fast and is in form/ Ruan for Tactical Game - Nooo Kockett, not a fan have never been, good player but I don't like his attitude.

10 Goosen

11 Habana

12 Lambie

13 Steyn ( If he loses a bit of wieght. I would like his size and pace on the outside as Lambie and goosen aren't the biggest okes artound and we need at least one big guy there.)

14. Peterson

15 Taute.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11906
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 11:16:11

With repect - if Steyn does not make it at 12 - he will be a disaster at 13.   He is way to slow and too interested in crashball to make it further out from the flyhalf.   Do not specifically like Lambie at insid center as well - but can live with that.

My future backline would be as follows:-

15     Taute

Wings :   Pietrsen and Habana

Centers :   13   Jordaan

                  12  De Allende/Lambie

Fkyhalf   :   Goosen/Lambie

Scrummie :  Reinach

Notes:

*   Pietersen and Jordaan playing together for the Sharks was a deadly combination.  Jordaan would even made Habana looking better than he already is.

*   De Allende has a number of advantages over other contenders - he has speed, a very strong boy and strong runner (can break the line) is a top off-loader of balls in tackle situations and has all those aspects Steyn lacked in this year.

*    I still prefer to see that Goosen and Lambie compete for the flyhalf position and will use them on a rotation basis.

*    Hougaard is not my idea of a scrummie - he has limited ball skills and ball sense and cannot read the game.  I prefer a youngster like Reinach.    He has some way to go though.

I will watch carefully all theaboveplayers in Super 15 and as time goes on comment on the progress of the above players. 

*  


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 11:21:37

Boklog I CAN say Goosen is a better flyhalf than Lambie because he is just that. I dont even think its close, I really rate Lambie be it at 10 or 15, more so at 15, but Goosen at 10 is the real deal. This kid has the x factor and will prove to be the best 10 since readmission I reckon.

 

It would be complete madness and a classic case of letting SA rugby down if Goosen was ever wasted on the bench. No coach would be that stupid and its just not going to happen. No coach would ignore Goosen after that performance of his against Oz.......that performance set the standard and blueprint for what is required at 10 for the Boks.

 

Goosen is a certainty to start at 10 and therefore logic dictates that Lambie should be selected at 15 and not wasted warming the bench. These two selections are amongst the easiest ones to make. Goosen at 10 is one of the first names on my teamsheet, along with Frans, JP, Bismark and Etzebeth.


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 11:29:21

Frans who? Not Frans "dontknowmyassfrommyelbow" Hougaard, I hope.

Not Frans "fatbellygettingintheway"  Steyn either ... surely??

As one of the first names to go on the team sheet???????

Please say it's not so ... PUHLEEEEEEEAAASSSSSSSSE SAY IT'S NOT SOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 11:32:41

Yeah that will be Frans the lad who along with JP achieved the highest player ratings of all the Bok backs against England - maybe there was a reason for this???????????????????????????


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 11:51:44

Well, well, well ... ain't that a kick in the head.

Must confess ... never saw that coming.

You came across as a knowledgeable sombody.

A Hougie fan I'm afraid upsets the applecart a tad.

That is one lad I do not rate at all. Not as a scrummy (no talent what so ever), not as a wing (too small, poor work rate) not even as an orange peeler left back in the change room.

When it comes to selecting the Bokke, his name doesn't even come to mind.

Sorry ... we differ here big time.

Also your comments on the Goose being vastly superior to Lambie. On what do you base this. The test match against Oz? Don't you think that's jumping the gun a bit?

We will see hopefully this season what he can do. He has shown potential. He has talent, sure. Cooper did the same and then he exposed himself as inconsistent. A fraud. Nothing to write home about.

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11906
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 11:58:07

Capone

Those ratings are made by some journalists and if the suit fits them  - liberalluy used by members to augment their imaginary arguments.

Frans Steyn - whose only noticeable contribution in the POMS test was when he had to make a relieving defnsive kick five meters from the goal line and the ball rolled along the ground putting the whole Springbok team off-side nd gving the POMS free reign as a result. Francois - whose only idea seems to be crashballing and doing nothing with the ball and did not have one single game to show he was not mediocre.

Frans Hougaard - who was rightfully dropped as scrummie after his fifth diusaster and went on to disgrace himself on the wing. 

In the case of Saffex both are preferred candidates - after all he prefer mediocre backline performers.


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 12:22:54

I can see that now, CleverMike!!

Some people, even though they have something staring them in the eye, still refuse to acknowledge it and persist with their nonsensicle ignorant comments - it just drives me insane. 

One can't have a discussion with them. They get all emotional and before long a hissy fit overcomes them tipping them over into a complete delusional state. 

Poor dear!!!! I guess we had better be a little patient with the lad. Clearly he's not well.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11906
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 12:39:06

Capone

I do not agree with you about Goosen - he is talented  and showed massive skills for the Cheetahs last year and for the Springboks in Pretoria.   He is no showpony like Cooper - but a brainy player.   In many ways Lambie and Goosen are alike and there are some elements where Goosen has the upper  hand and others where Lambie is better.   Very little to chose between the two of them and I am  delighted that we have two great flyhalfs available in SA.

 


Capone

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 176
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 12:46:22

You are right ... the man has talent ... of that there's no doubt.

We are all writing him up as though he's the next best thing to Dan Carter. I need to see a little more before I jump onto the same band wagon. That's all.

There's more to a class player than just raw talent. You know that.

Let see what this season produces.

I'm looking forward to it - big time.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8505
RE: Goosen or Lambie at 10?? Who and why?
January 23, 2013, 12:58:31

Al pretty fresh coming from a clown who has just exposed his rugby ignorance by declaring that Hougaard is talentless - wow that is almost as bad as Beenkop telling the world that Matfield was crap.

 

Its good to see we have anothe dumbass on board - welcome aboard sir or is it madam, I wish you a bumpy ride!!

 

Your thoughts on Kings of Leon while you are at it?


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