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3330 Topic: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
Beeno1

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Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 08:44:49

Goosen was under 20 last year and playing Super 15 and test rugby he was injured twice. This year he is under 21 but is he ready physically for the knocks a tsenior level. He is a running flyhalf and will take  some hard tackles etc. He is not like Fourie of the bulle who only kicks the ball and seldom takes physical contact.

In my opinion Goosen is a great talent but is not ready. This young genius is being rushed. Ou snapster cannot understand that for  2013 Lambie is our flyhalf. The matter can be reappraised next year.

Is this a too conservative position? Goosen is one more  player that will see the Boks resume their traditional  position as top dogs in the rugby world. Why take any more unnececessary chances with him?


Ek

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 08:53:34

Let's not jump the gun yet Beeno. Give him until June at least. Making a judgement like that on the little he has played at the level is not really called an informed decision.

I get the feeling he is old enough. However...we will have to wait and see.

When is he back?


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 09:35:09

Ek I have not heard when he is back.

Frankly I would rather wait another year for him to come on stream than take any risks. This guy is like gold.

That said I also think Lambie has the making of a very good international flyhalf so why take chances this year with Goosen. Anyhow those closer to the action must make the call and I only hope they do it with the best interest of the player  - and of the country.


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 09:39:26

Actually when I speak of senior rugby I also think of Super 15. Should Goosen even play Super 15. Give the guy time to harden up? Twice injured in one year. Bad luck or not ready?

How can an under 20 be  ready for senior rugby? Can he now in 2013 as an under 21 be ready?  Wonder what Noakes would say!


clevermike

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 09:59:56

Beeno

Personally I think that Goosen has the inherent abilities to be a top class flyhalfs.  He has massive ball sense and can read the game extremely well.

Both his injuries were freakish and I do  believe under normal cir[removed]stances it could happen to any player.

For myself I would like to see him getting his muscular strength up and him wieighing in at 95 kgs.   That would be a better weight for him considering his height and would also be insurance against muscular injuries in his career.

However, there is NO CHANCE for him not playing at fklyhalf this year on Super 15 level.   His projected return to rugby was in fact January 2013 and I doubt not that when the Super series start in th last week of Frebruary he would be abck in the swing.


Boklogic

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 10:32:10

 Couldn't have said it better myself Beeno. Yet another insightful view from Beeno to the blind aka A girl..

 

Goosen needs to be a Hanyani Shimange this year. He needs to be in and around the squad and feeling the culture of Bok rugby but play only if really needed. Lambie is an 80 min player. Let him play 80 mins if injuries allow. Goosen needs to learn and grow this year. Both as a player and physically. 

 

I do think Goosen should play Super Rugby though. We need to treat him how Cruden is treated when Carter is around. Just sit, learn and grow!! You will get your chance and you will be the best! I also think Beeno is right in terms of the u20 squad and all that. He should play for the baby boks. He should not be deprived of that. He needs to come through the ranks properly and form bonds with those players! Dont want him to "grow up" and mature too soon! As the saying goes. Good things are worth the wait. You cant rush greatness. Like a fine wine. It needs time to be at its best!


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 10:34:09

Mike I agree if he is fit Naka will be playing him in the Super 15. If Goosen has pushed his weight up to 95 kg maybe he will be able to take the knocks etc.

I am not convinced they were freakish accidents. Under 20 is too young for senior rugby. Under 21 well its a bit of a toss up but each player needs to be considered individually. A few maybe be ready by then.

Is Jan Serfontein still under 21 ths year. I notice the bulle hardly played him last year and rightly so.


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 10:38:24

Thanks boklogic. It will in fact be a point of great interest a to how some outstanding young players are handled this year. 


Boklogic

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 10:52:25

I like the way NZL handle their youngsters. People cried for Cruden to play, they let him play for the Junior AB's. They cried for Beauden Barrett to play, they let him play Juniors first and Super rugby. Very rare that NZL will rush a young gun in no matter how good he is. He would have to be really exceptional and they would have to have a string of injuries. Players are managed so well here and never rushed into the big time..They are eased in when they are 100% ready!

 

To me, I find it obsurd that you would rush a man like Howard or Serfontein into the big time when they have not been tested on a stage that grand before. What confidence is that showing in men like Whitehead and Ebersohn who have performed consistently well on a higher stage over the years..Surely they are good enough to do the job now and it becomes the youngsters duty to knock them off their pedestal. Its all about depth. Can never have too many good players. Ask NZL!!


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 12:06:11

Unfortunatelyone has to agree the kiwis bring their players in very well. Goosen understudying Lambie is a possibility.

I also like the fact Butch james will be mentoring Lambie. Butch is hugely experienced. Also there will be no need to play Lambie into the ground as Butch is still a capable flyhalf.

Mike wants to take a bet that Jantjes will be out of the flyhalf starting position by May. Well who says he will start unless Grant will not be back in time from Japan. Grant is the man in position. 

Here again it very nice to have an experienced man like Grant mentoring Jantjes.  I see no reason why Jantjes will not do okay at the Stormers. He will play behind a powerful pack. If he could keep James out of the Lions side then why shouldn't he do a job for us? But once again we need to rotate players and Grant, Jantjes and van Aswegen should all play. Van Aswegen was looking good before getting injured.


bluebok

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 14:03:14

Howzit guys, lekker to be back and able to chat.

I don't agree with you guys on this one. Goosen has already had some exposure to the Springboks, and his time on the field was anything but a flop. He now has a whole season of Super Rugby to get more "schooling" in the closest thing to international rugby. He will be ready, by the time the international season starts. And for those of you saying he is too young, then what about Etzebeth? We forget about him because of his size, but he is only a ball hair older than Goosen, so what is the difference? When a player is good enough, he is ready. The one thing that i do agree with, is Goosen bulking up to 95kg's.


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 14:13:15

Greetings Bluebok, trust you had a good break and return rested and in your right mind!

Bluebok there are risks attached to this. I doubt Goosen would have been injured if he had stuck to  under 20 rugby last year. He does need time to grow up. But the die is cast Naka will play him in the Super 15 so we shall see how he goes.

Nice that Mike is at last realising size does matter.


bluebok

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 14:31:19
Cheers Beans, and to you too! What do you say about Etzebeth though? There is such a small difference in age between the two, why are we not having this discussion about Etzebeth? There is a years gap between them, and a year ago nobody thought Etzebeth was too young to be a Bok. As a Bok he thrived and cemented his name in the starting line-up. Yes he's a big guy, but he is more a less a standard sized lock in the modern game....as is Goosen, bar 1 or 3 kg's, standard size for a Flyhalf. When a player achieves a certain level of play, and he is physically suitibly sized, he is ready. Both players are now gaining experience, and experience, is NEVER a bad thing.


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 15:08:36

Bluebok I dont believe you can say all guys mature in the same time frame etc. Etzebeth is something of a freak - hard as nails and ready to go. 

Goosen has had two bad injuries that have put him out of action for months. One has to wonder if he is ready for senior rugby in 2013. No one is doubting he has great potential

Regardless of what I think he will play Super 15 so we shall have to wait and see how he goes. Really hope there are no injuries for him in 2013.

 


Jalapeno!

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 15:14:13

The only thing freakish about the eye-gouger Etzebeth is his capacity for wanton violence.

 

Goosen got up from a few very hard knocks in 2012 and looks a much harder player than the cowardly Etzebeth.


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 16:13:27

rooitwit happy new year to you. If you feel a nervous breakdown coming on at any stage please take a break.

As for Etzebeth he was voted into a world 15 - not bad at all for such a younster.

Rooitwit are you having those bad dreams again? Reality getting mixed up with fact? Crazy 1


Boklogic

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 07, 2013, 22:10:29

Bluebok, I think Beeno mentioned in one of his posts above that this "age" factor needs to be taken on a player by player basis. Goosen does not have the physical size of Etzebeth nor the aggression nor would he be expected to as he is a flyhalf so his transition may take a bit longer than Etzebeth or a player like Coetzee who are naturally (or unnaturally ;-) bigger guys. They have more meat and muscle on their bones to withstand the knocks. I do believe Goosen spends a lot of time injured due to his body not coping with these massive knocks each time he runs.

 

Goosen = great player. All the ability in the world but whilst we have Lambie there, we dont need to rush him too quick. I would like to see him play for the juniors and be eased in when he is ready and more experienced. Look at the breath that Goosen is spoken in by all of us. People are calling him a "great" and he has played 2 test matches and is barely 20 years old. Huge expectation placed upon that kid already and I dont know if his skinny shoulders can handle all that pressure right now..He must be managed for the long term. Not what he can do for us in the short term until all the injuries just get too much and he is not half the player he was "expected" to be then he is just thrown out by SA rugby and their supporters. We need to evolve as supporters. In Taute we have the next Andre Joubert. In Goosen the next Honiball or Botha, in Etzebeth the next Bakkies, in Reinach the next Joost but it all depends how these men are managed!


clevermike

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 03:54:29

boklogic

In essence I agree with you on the issue of Goosen - he is a bit on the light side at present taken into account his height and should actually weigh between 95 and 99 kilos   - as comapartive to his present weight of 90 kgs,   In increase in muscular strength would indeed help in reducing inkuries in his case.

Problems dietary and gym programmes need to be managed with care and a determined effort is to be made to enhance muscular development.

However, there is a problem and thatis that even at a very young age  and that is that Goosen - playing forthe Cheetahs on Super series level - has impressed many people - both here and in New Zealand and it was already evident that even in the Soweto test targetted him in their defensive plan - more so than they ever had to do in the case of Morne Steyn.

Unlike A girl I think that we are lucky to have Lambie and Goosen at flyhalf - it will be better to utilize them judiciosuly in that position in future 


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 09:52:04

Naka has a huge responsibility here and hope he realises this.

Of course having Lambie and Goosen is a big plus for the Boks in the most vital position on the rugby field.

We shall also see how Catrikillis and Jantjes go. The Cat has BMT and that is crucial for top level rugby. Jantjes will pay for the first time in a great outfit. Lets see how he goes.


Ek

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 09:54:57

Mike the kid is 19 going on 20...Off course he will be light comapritive to his height. He will fill out when he becomes a man.


Boklogic

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 10:27:22

 Beeno..I thought Jantjies was playing for the Stormers this year??


Beeno1

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 10:52:22

You thought correctly Boklogic. But please make that the Mighty Stormers as a small token of respect given our preeminent log standing in the Super 15 and thrashing of the Sharks with a severely depleted team in the Curry Cup final.

Its frightening to think what the Mighty Stormers could achieve this year. All we need is an injury free run and some decent unbiased refs. I still remember what that bent nz ref did to us down under when we played the crustacians. Suddenly we were offside the whole game. Never happened before or since that match. Very hard to win against a bent nz ref.

I usually inlcude altitude but I think we have the bulle's number to such an extent that even altitude will not bother us. How will the bulle fair against the might of the Stormers pack! 


Boklogic

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 11:42:47

 Ha ha when you said Jantjies is playing for a GREAT team I assumed he had changed plans to link up with the Sharks. So he is playing for a GOOD team then..Not GREAT ;-)

 

Beeno, I have a lot of respect for you in terms of your knowledge, humour and the way you write your posts but even you dont believe the Stormers are up there with the Sharks do you??

I can see plenty good hearted banter this season. Will be easy for me with the Sharks getting up on the Stormers as they will again this year no doubt ;-) Look forward to it and all the best to your boys in Blue. See them at the top ;-) 2nd is very commendable!


mozart

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 17:49:29

The mental component shouldn't be ignored. Goosen's main problem against the AB's was his extreme nervousness. To me he looked very Gaffie like. Many posters who came to the party in the 2000s weren't exposed to the young Gaffie du Toit. This tyro was the fastest man in the Bok team and could punt the ball a mile....he was a fabulous runner with the ball, with a rugby brain that worked faster than most of his team mates could execute.

 

Unfortunately Gaffie lacked core self beliefs. So when he was rushed into the team, he started to break down mentally with each adversity. He disappeared from the scene for 5 years, only to reappear mainly on the bench in 2004 through 2006. A sad waste of a talent.

 

If Goosen is rushed too fast some variant of the same fate could await him.


clevermike

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 18:05:50

Mozart

I don'tt know where you got that nerviousmness idea from.   I know you accuded Goosen wrongly about a weak tackle he made.   Goosen played extremely well on Super 13 level - he performed well in Dunedin when he came obn early in thes econd half to replace the useless Morne Steyn - he played extremely well against the Aussies In Pretoria, but was closely marked by the All Blaccks and had a more quiet game in Soweto before he was injured early.   He never in the Soweto test kicked a ball aimlessly - he never knocked on a ball - he never made hospital passes - so where was the nervousness from?

By the way you asked anout Taute's performance at full back and you never responded after I gave further information - other than to react to rooi-arse's standard rubbish.   What do you think about that info?


mozart

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 20:34:02

Hell Mike from right in front of the posts he just got the ball over inside the right upright. And that missed tackle for the first try was no more of a dead stop solid, than many Adi Jacobs and Morne Steyn have been blamed for....except it was to prevent a try. Porous at best.

 

On the Taute issue, all I'm saying is there is the presumption he is better at fullback. You point out he has scored more points than Kirchner.....but then again Kirchner is a bit of a robot.

 

Let me be clear, I'm not saying Taute wont succeed at test fullback, I'm simply saying he hasn't been tested there in test conditions. And he looks a bit passive to me.....scared to assert himself. I'm from Missouri on this one....show me.


clevermike

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 20:49:56

Mozart

You spoke overtime about the weak tackle - without regard to the fact that Goosen was treated for an injury - got up while being treated and made an effective tackle - but too near the tryline to prevent a try.   His injury was very severe and the fact that he did what he did showed real courage.   And then because he miseed one kick at goal - he suddenly was nervous.   That is crap - you know.   If that is signs of nervousness then what wass the number of kicks missed by Morne Steyn this year - nervousness as well??????

I saw a number of games where Taute scored tries from full back  in both Super 15 and CC games - and he was anything but passive.   He scored some long distance tiries as well - so at full back he is anything but passive.   Taute is a completely different player when he plays at 15 from what he was at center.

The comparison between Taute and Kirchner was only in respect of Super and CC games - to make it comparable.   I am satisfied from what I saw of Taute at full back,  that he is the best full back we have at present in SA - but we will have to see how he goes this year in Super 15 playing at full back. 


Saffex

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 22:56:57

Who in their right mind would question Goosen's ability or readiness to play test rugby, its a bloody insult to any rugby supporter with substance.

Bloody hell in that test against Oz he proved just what Bok rugby has been missing in years. The kid was a revelation, but sadly got injured in that test and should not have played against NZ, but the kid is made of hard stuff and took the field against NZ

It was clear from early on in that test that he was limping and some clowns want to point fingers at him because he missed the odd kick at goal and for that question his mental stength - what complete and utter [removed]

Goosens greatest strength is his mental strength, playing S15 rugby as an 18 year old proved that.

Goosen will go down as one of the best Bok 10's to play the game. A fit Goosen should ALWAYS start at 10 for the Boks, the kid is special and another of my calls


mozart

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 23:29:41

Who in their right mind would have picked Pienaar at 10 for the Boks, when he wanted to play 9? Yep the same fat man who wants to play Taute at 13, when he wants to play 15. Dave others have forgotten your rabid support for Pienaar, I haven't, if anything it was even more vociferous than your mindless support for this new nervous kid.

 

Nobody gets it more wrong, more often , than Nostrondamus.


Saffex

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 08, 2013, 23:42:51

Pieanaar was good at 10, better than useless Morne ever was. Look no further than that MOM performance of his against England at Twickers - the way a real 10 should play the game. I would have always played Pienaar ahead of Morne at 10.

Who said Taute wants to play 15, he never did, he only said he wanted to be considered there for the Stormers as he wants to start.


mozart

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 00:24:35

"Springbok centre Jaco Taute has indicated that he would like to play full-back for the Stormers in next year's Super Rugby tournament....."....from Planet Rugby

 

Dave you can keep lying and I'll keep quoting the player.


Saffex

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 00:40:29

His words were that he would like to be considered at fullback for the Stormers and goes on to explain why. He said he did not want to warm the bench for the Stormers and saw fullback as his only realistic chance of starting given the Stormers had Jean and de Jongh at centre.

These are the FACTS Moffie, no lies involved at all. At no point has Taute EVER said he does not want to play centre or that he is only to be considered as a fullback. He will play wherever he gets gametime and he sees that at 15 - which is realistic given the Stormers set-up and the fact that they have Coetzee as coach who is not smart enough to play Taute at 13 ahead of de Jongh


clevermike

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 01:05:32

A girl

I indicated reviously that Mozart is talking crap about Goosen and in essence i believe that Goosen is a naural flyhalf with a very good tugby brain.   He is very young and will mature in both the physical and technical aspects uf his game.

As to Taute you are completely off track.   Taute in reality played at full back throughout the period 2009 to Aprikl 2012 and it is clear he prefer to play in that position.   He gave reasons other than those given by you for his preference.   In the end he said he would play at center if he is required to play theire by the selectors.   Whereas he was quite  clearly enthuastic about playing t full back - he was not really so about the possibility of playing at center.   He would play their if he cant get playing time in his preferred position.

Taking into account his top class performances at full back since 2009 and the rather average succeses in the few games he played at center - I am really not surprized at his prefernce to play at full back - and that is where he is likely to play.

To imply - like you did in your assumption - that Taute is to weak a center to keep De Jongh from selecionn - is really an insult of Taute.   His performances at center can best be described as average - those of De Jongh as non-existent,   


Saffex

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 01:07:10

No Mike, Taute is a class 13 and was by far our best Bok 13 in 2012 - FACT


mozart

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 01:42:16

Taute was the worst centre who played for the Boks this year at 12 or 13. He rapidly morphed into wanting to play fullback....and the coaches sang from the same hymn book....fact. 


Saffex

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 01:53:32

More lies, the worst centre was de Jongh, followed by Jean.

Our best 12 was Frans and our best 13 was Taute

Which coaches did the singing, would that be Meyer who only selected him at 13 or would that be nobody Coetzee?


clevermike

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 01:55:35

Mozart

Although I was dissatisfied by the performances of Taute - he was not the worst 12 or 13 this year.   The worst by a mile was De Jongh - and that was by a proverbial mile.


mozart

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 01:58:31

Oh sure he let through 3 tries against the Poms I suppose. De Jongh had a quiet test against the Poms and a good test against Scotland. Taute was a mess against the ABs. This is just your usual bias.


Saffex

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 02:04:06

Taute never let a single try through against the AB's, he missed one tackle on Dagg, Jean and Habana missed tackles that test as well. Taute was damn good against Oz and good against Ireland.

de Jongh was pathetic against England, went AWOL like no centre in history and wow he made one mini break against the wonderfully gifted Scottish side. de Jongh was a joke


clevermike

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RE: Is Johan Goosen ready for senior rugby
January 09, 2013, 02:17:51

Mozart

If De Jongh had a good test against the Scots - I would say there is something seriously deficient in assessment.   He knocked on the first ball he received and thereafter handled the ball only 5 times - messed up three and make 5 meters in a mini-break beating two forward tacklers - but was tackled by the first backline player he ran into.   If he could even be called average in that test it would be a miracle.   In the tests against the POMS he went AWOL and did zero of any value,  

Taking into accpount both tests I must say emphatically that I have never seen such an atrocious display ever by a Sprngbok center.   If I had the option of selecting a 13 and the only players available  to pick from were  taute and De Jongh I would Taute ahead of De Jongh all the time.   Both were not really acceptable - so it would be a choice between which one was the weaker and that would be De Jongh.


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