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Beeno1

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Sharks super 15 squad
January 04, 2013, 11:32:59

Ex Keo

The Sharks will use two pre-season friendlies against Vodacom Cup opposition to prepare for Super Rugby.

Keegan Daniel’s side will play the Leopards at the Woodburn Stadium in Pietermaritzburg on 8 February, before facing the Pumas at Mbombela Stadium in Nelspruit a week later.

The Sharks start their Super Rugby campaign against the Stormers at Kings Park on 2 March. (Not nice for the sharkies t ostart with a loss!)

Sharks Super Rugby squad:

Fullbacks: Louis Ludik, Gouws Prinsloo, Riaan Viljoen
Wings:
Lwazi Mvovo, Odwa Ndungane, JP Pietersen, Sibusiso Sithole
Centres:
Meyer Bosman, Paul Jordaan, Wandile Mjekevu, Frans Steyn, Tim Whitehead, Heimar Williams
Flyhalves:
Pat Lambie, Butch James
Scrumhalves:
Cobus Reinach, Charl McLeod, Conrad Hoffmann
Loose forwards:
Willem Alberts, Jacques Botes, Marcell Coetzee, Keegan Daniel (c), Jean Deysel, Ryan Kankowski, Francois Kleinhans, Lubabalo Mtembu
Locks:
Anton Bresler, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Jaundre Marais, Peet Marais, Franco van der Merwe
Hookers:
Craig Burden, Kyle Cooper, Monde Hadebe, Bismarck du Plessis
Props:
Dale Chadwick, Jannie du Plessis, Wiehahn Herbst, Tendai Mtawarira, Julian Redelinghuys

 

 

Looks like a very good squad to me and one which should be in the top six for sure. Very nice depth as well. Cant really see any glaring weaknesses? This squad can challenge for the title as can the Mighty Stormers. Bull ewe need to see how they go. Cheetahs - hope for mid table finish and Queens bottom of the log seems likely. Sorry Luke but one has to be realistic.


Sharkbok

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Posts: 3783
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 04, 2013, 14:32:06

 dedent allround squad. Is Bismark ready to play yet?

-

 

The area I am most happy with is at center and loose forward.

The sharks usually do well when we have good centres, especially a good inside center. Frans Steyn is the best in South Africa, and Tim Whitehead is also a specialist inside center with Brains and a pass which is good for the Sharks 15man game plan. With Paul Jordaan on the outside, their is plenty reason to spread the ball wide. 

-

We probably have more depth at loose forward than any team in the SuperXV.

We have brains and skill in Daniels and Kankowski, with Donkey power in Deysel and Alberts.

Marcell Coetzee, got the best performing loose forward in the 2012 SuperXV, and he can cover all 3 positions in the backrow, so the Sharks must surely have the most depth at loose forward than any team

Marcell Coetzee, Daniels and Kankowski are all excellant at interlinking with the backs and offloads so we see some great interplay and 15 man rugby in the way that South Africa can do it

-

 

I am a little concerned of the outside backs. Apart from JP Pieterson, none are excellant. 

Mvovo is good for sure but not great, although he could still be improving.

Not sure about Sithole.

The depth at hooker is good. 

 

Our lineouts were not great in the CurryCup final and a major reason for the loss. Interesting to see if Steph Du doit is ready for the 1st game or if he will get better as the season progresses. He has had the offseason to bulk up so hopefullu

 


Beeno1

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 04, 2013, 15:10:37

You can add to that a balanced style of play as well Sharkbok.

Re the lineouts ask yourself how often a side actually loses their own ball. If they do its usually a poor throw in. Sharks  lineout should be good enough. There is nothing at all wrong with Franco's lineout work.

No the Sharks should be there at the business end.

 


clevermike

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 04, 2013, 15:46:02

The players I like in the squad and I am going to follow closely are  -

  *    Lu[removed] at full back

  *    Pietersen on the wing

  *    Lambie at flyhalf

  *    Reinach at scrummie

  *    Du Toit at lock.

The rest of the forward are really the best we have.

Insofar as Francois Steyn is concerned - he had a poor test series - was out of form and did not play up to his reputation.   He has the potential to be a good 12 - but unless he bugs up considerably - he will not be a real asset for the Sharks. 

The wings needs real development before they can aspire for higher selecion.   I think Mvovo has real potential - so lets wait and see what happens.   Sithole is a huge favourite of A girl - but he has not played on Super 15 and may find it too high a mountain to climb 


clevermike

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 04, 2013, 15:46:12

The players I like in the squad and I am going to follow closely are  -

  *    Lu[removed] at full back

  *    Pietersen on the wing

  *    Lambie at flyhalf

  *    Reinach at scrummie

  *    Du Toit at lock.

The rest of the forward are really the best we have.

Insofar as Francois Steyn is concerned - he had a poor test series - was out of form and did not play up to his reputation.   He has the potential to be a good 12 - but unless he bugs up considerably - he will not be a real asset for the Sharks. 

The wings needs real development before they can aspire for higher selecion.   I think Mvovo has real potential - so lets wait and see what happens.   Sithole is a huge favourite of A girl - but he has not played on Super 15 and may find it too high a mountain to climb 


Saffex

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 04, 2013, 16:04:32

Good squad, a side of: 15.Lambie 14.JP 13.Jordaan 12. Frans 11.Mvovo 10. James 9. Reinach 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Jannie 4. Bresler 5. Steph du Toit 6. Daniel 7. Alberts 8. Coetzee 16. Hoffmann 17. Whitehead 18. Mjekevu 19. Chadwick 20. Cooper 21. JA Marais 22. Deysel 23. Kankowski is pretty damn impressive


clevermike

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 04, 2013, 22:25:28

A girl

Got it wrong again - can you read at all?   Lambie is in the squad to play at flyhalf - Butch James is way past his prime and is around only for loyalty for past services rendered - get it?

The team will be the following:-

15.Lu[removed] 14.JP 13.Jordaan 12. Frans 11.Mvovo 10. Lambie  9. Reinach 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Jannie 4. Bresler 5. Steph du Toit 6. Coetzee  7. Alberts 8. Daniel  16. Burden  17. Chadwick 18. Herbst 19. Marais  20 Kankowski 21  McCleod, 22 Whitehead, 23 Hoffman

Don't you know by now that the reserves start with the hooker at 16 and the squad of 23 must include 2 props - ie 17 and 18?  That leaves bench players on the basis of 1 lock, 1 loosie and 3 backline players.

I am slightly hesitant about Francois Steyn though - if he repeats the sub-par performances of the tests he played in - he may end up on the bench or worse - so he better start performing up to his reputation level.  We will soon enough see whether he is able to up his speed and whether he would have lost some of the lard  he was carrying last year,  


 


Sharkbok

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Posts: 3783
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 04, 2013, 22:46:28

 now the sharks team is being re-organised to find a place for Taute at outside center for the boks, he! he!

-

Butch is supposed to mentor Lambie for much of the tournament as his baby sitter apparently. I would be concerned if Lambie gets injured, because Butch will not last long at SuperXV level- he should have come back sooner. Although way past his best , Butch could be  a useful option at 10. I wonder if his pole kicking is still good.

 


clevermike

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 05, 2013, 01:10:57

Sharkbok

Will A girl ever gets it right - I don't think so.

I am sure you are correct about James' roll in the squad.   I think if Lambie is injured - the Sharks may use a number of alternative options at flyhalf by -

*   playing Bosman at flyhalf; or

*   moving Steyn to flyhalf and bringing in Whitehead at center; or

*   playing Jordaan at flyhalf and playing Whitehead at center

The latter two options are the least  likely to happen  - because playing Viljoen at flyhalf is unthinkable and and i can only see James as a potential bench player.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 05, 2013, 08:31:08

 A girl, A girl ,A girl...No no no man!! Ludik was a revelation last year in Super rugby as was Kankowski. Had Kankowski not left for Japan, he had done enough to take the Bok jersey. He, like Ludik, was absolutely sublime in the second half of the comp and you go an exclude them from the run on team.

My team would be:

15 Ludik

14 Pietersen

13 Jordaan

12 Steyn   (If he doesnt shape up, Whitehead in right away but sure he will do great as always)

11 Ndungane (Adds more than Mvovo in my opinion. Mvovo is a finisher and will be brought on when legs are tired)

10 Lambie

9 Reinach

8 Kankowski

7 Alberts (to share the jumper with Coetzee. Both bodies take a lot of punishment throughout the year. Need them well managed)

6 Daniel

5 Franco VD Merwe (hard man. Soften the boys up and ease Steph Du Toit into it. Du Toit is still at least 18 months away from international level. Dont rush him. He will over do it and become a heinrich Brussouw. Always injured)

4 Bresler (Sorry, Bresler 5, Franco 4..Not typing again and cant copy and paste)

3 J Du Plessis

2 B Du Plessis

1 Mtawarira

16 Cooper (Burden cant throw) 17 Herbst 18 Steph Du Toit 19 Coetzee 20 Mcleod  21 Whitehead 22 Mvovo

 

Frans Steyn to back up the 10 position. This is why I leave Butch out and play Whitehead. Butch James needs to take Conrad Hoffmann aside and teach him the art of number 10 so he can become the back up to Lambie in months to come! Should Lambie get injured during a game, Steyn can take over..If he is out for a number of weeks after sustaining an injury, Butch James to come in and start at pivot.. Steyn is not a long term option there nor will I start him in the 10 jumper There will be injuries and guys like Deysel, Bosman and Viljoen will just have to be patient. Unfortunately we can only ask 22 or 23 guys to kit up on game day.


clevermike

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 05, 2013, 08:59:28

boklogic

Nice team and sound reasoning.    I am not sure about the loosies and even locks though - but that obviously will depend on the performances during Super 15  and even in the games leading up to Super 15.     am glad to see you are not illogical like A girl - Lambie must play at 15 and Taute at 13 in his book - what a load of crap.

Incidentally their need to be a second prop on the bench - making he total squad of 23 players.   I think Chadwick should be considered as the additional bench prop.


Beeno1

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 05, 2013, 09:21:08

The big mistake for the sharks is Daniel as captain. This will probably prevent them playing their best loose trio which is of course Coetzee, Alberts and Kan Kan.

Always a mistake to make a guy captain who is not sure of his place in the team.

Some sound logic there Bok logis. Snapster is determeined to play Lambie at 15 dispite all the reasons why this is not on.


clevermike

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Posts: 13133
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 05, 2013, 09:44:06

Beeno

I do not find anything wrong with Daniel as captain - he is a truely good leader and sets a top class example for people in all walks of life.   I personally think that he would play at 8 and Coetzee at 6 - with kankowski as the impact player amongst the loosies.   In some games the Sharks will play Kankowski at 7 - but for the loosies the situation is fairly settled. .   


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 05, 2013, 13:37:44

 I understand what you saying Beeno but Daniel has been too good for the Sharks to leave out. Im not really interested in how he plays for the Boks because how he plays for the Sharks is nothing short of excellent and I think the Sharks will be worse off without him. Some guys are test players and some thrive in Super rugby where things are looser and faster. Daniel thrives in Super rugby and he is a great team man.

Like Jake White's comment on Jaques Fourie at the time Jacques was playing for the Lions and he had not been playing well and people questioned his selection for the Boks and Jake responded, "How Jaques plays for his union is of no major concern to me, how he plays for me is!" Thats how I feel about Daniel. Whilst he is doing what he is doing for the Sharks, he has gota play even if he is not in the Boks plans anymore. Coetzee will play, no doubt but whilst Keegan is fit, he must start..

 

As for Lambie at 15. Not a fan of the idea. Lambie is not exceptionally quick and that is a fundamental of fullback to me. A flyhalf must have deception, eye for a gap, good distribution and the ability to create space for the men around him. Lambie scores highly in all depts. A fullback must be pacey, strong, finisher and a little greedy. Lambie does not queit fit the bill. Taute is more along those lines. Frans Steyn was that before he became a better 12. The strength factor is the reason guys like Joe Pietersen and Aplon were good but not great. Matt Burke, Muliaina and the likes were all that plus strong and they are greats of the game..Taute can be the next Muliaina..You want your men like Lambie more involved in the action so I believe 10 is his best position and to tell you all the truth, I may get some flak from some of you but I believe Lambie is our best option at 10 if we are going to play a running game. I think he gives us everything Goosen can and more with more refined skills!


Saffex

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 05, 2013, 18:29:53

I dont give a toss where Lambie might have been selected to play. If I was coach, I'd play him at 15 with Butch at 10 - Butch might be 30 odd but not past it for a flyhalf at S15 level.

That was my side not Plumtree's. Lambie would play fullback for me end of

 


clevermike

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 05, 2013, 19:16:50

A girl

We are lucky then - Plumtree will play his best side and not one that is manipulated to fit your dreams.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 02:14:57

 A girl..Son of Straueli...Your team/s you select would never win a game...You would be little better than a club side..Taute out of position, wasting Lambie at fullback..I would understand playing Butch if our back up flyhalf was someone who should never be in the mix for Bok selection like Jantjies (U actually like him for some weird reason)or Riaan Viljoen but that is not the case. We have South Africa's best option at 10 at the Sharks and you want to make him play 15 to accommodate Butch who was a good player for the Boks in days gone by but those days are over.. Why would you not want to give Lambie that extra experience at the top level in that position?

 

Same as Taute. Why would you want him at 13 when his best position is 15..If he cant make the team at 15, he cant play for the Boks. Simple as that. In reality, he had an acceptable game against Aus when Aus were getting hammered and out of sorts and he backed that up with two below par performances. Jordaan at 13 against Aus would surely have got us a few extra tries. You keep saying JDV is past it. What are you talking about? He was a rock this year in the centres. He played some really good rugby in an unsettled team and he was easily our best centre this year in terms of running metres and line breaks. If he was poor, Taute was shocking...

 

Im trying to work out why you would make some selections you do but I just cant see it. Nothing to back it up...


clevermike

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 06:57:03

boklogic

A girl has a really good knowledge of the youngsters at Under 20 level - better than most I must add,   However, he has som other elements in his make-up as well and those include the following:-

*    He writes off some older players of the team as past it - irrrespective of form,    At this stage his pet dislikes in this category are De Villiers and Habana - whom he has written off completely.    He slightly softened his tune about Habana sometimes - but despite the fact that Habana was excellent in the test series this year - he wanted him out.   I always said that De Villiers has the age factor against himand his career on test level islikely to be over after 2013 - affex wants him out immediately.

*    A girl has his favourite players - who can do no wrong.   A player like Hougaard - who developed some really problematic deficiencies in 2012 - did nothing wrong and  according to him Meyer's conduct by not retaining Hougaard at scrummie was diabolical.   When hthe deficiencies is pointed out word-for-word to him - he either said they reflect examples of Hougaard's excellent play - or they did not exist.   The fact that Francois Steyn has also not been a house on gire this year is also ignored and according to him Steyn was the best center in SA in 2012.

*     He loves some youngsters - and never sees anything wrong in their performances.   Engelbrecht, Jantjies and Taute are three of those.   He says Jantjies has silky hands - that is why my personal nickname for Jantjies is "Silky Hands"   Engelbrecht has class and is gliding - but the fact that Engelbrecht has both attacking and defensive deficiencies is wrong.

*     He loves to play players out of position - so as to make space fr all his favourites in his "dream" team.   That means there is no problem with playing Taute at center despite the fact that Taute has since 2009 virtually played only six full games at center and was by far a better full back than center.   He also am a great admirer of Pietersen at center - despite the fact that Pietersen was less effective at center than he is as a wing.

*    He has pet hates against what he describe as smaller players.   All big guys are good - all the smaller guys are bad.    Jantjies is good enough at flyhalf  - but Jordaan (a bigger and stronger player) is too small toplay for the Springboks.   He believes that brute strength is everything and speed and clever ball play counts for nothing.   The poor performances of our backline this year are excused because of the "nature of modern rugby" and the tight defences - he in fact is not consistent as Meyer is wrong in using 10 man rugby - but he himself is making out that ten-man rugby and crashnballing are  the only feasible game plan nowadays - provided that his favourite players do it.   Any other player doing that is condemned.

*    He hates stats - if they show up a negative indication of his favourite players - and love grading of players by individual journalists if is gives a favourble view of his favourite players.

*    He looks at games and if his favourites plays badly - he does not see anything wrong and described their performances on a totally delusional basis.

I think A girl has some really good ifdeas - but his main problem remains a totally obscure lack of objectivity, as well as delusionary tendencies  in respect of player performances.   It does not help to argue with him about players - he would always come back with generalized statements to support his arguments.   

In essence he is a nice person though - so don't be too harsh insofar as he is concerned.    .       


Beeno1

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 10:03:34

The thing to bear in mind is that these were differences in opinion. Taute at center Lambie at full back are not bad calls but possibly not the best. I have no doubt whatsoever that JP could make a fine test 13. He showed enough in his brief stint there. However possibly its not the best option given his performances on the wing.

Mike downgrades Jantjes and De Jongh too much and harps on incessantly about their shortcomings in a Goebeles like manner.

As to Jordaan I do not recall snapster saying Jordaan is too small for test rugby  and he certain surpasses to 90 kg benchamrk of snapster. I do recall him saying he made a mistake re Habana. The simple facts are smaller players are not featuring dispite an occassional exception. The guys are getting bigger not smaller - that is the trendline so snapster is correct there and most agree with this.

Snapster also would never argue brute strength is everything and that  speed and skills are not important. Bwahahahahhahahahaha - poor wind up Mike - too obvious.

Re JJ well I think he is more of a wing but he is young and has a lot of talent. Nothing is cast in stone as yet.

In essence Mike is an excellent chap but is battling to understand the current status of Bok rugby. Hahahhahahaha


clevermike

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RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 11:56:41

Beeno

Thanks - but perhaps I understand things better than you realize.   For me size and eperience is not the real norms - the real ones are ball sense and performance.   That is why the upcoming Super 15 is so important.

I looked at the Super 15 and CC performances of 2012 and came to the conclusion that De Jongh was poor and so was Engelbrecht.   Jantjies is a different kettle of fish   He had some good games - but showed srious deficiencies in others - when he is poor he has atrocious performances.   His performance in the Soweto test was abysmal - so much so that his fellow-players stopped passing balls to him virtually throughout the whole second half he was on the field.   I am not running the above players down - they ran thmselves down.  .

But back to PERFORMANCES - we shall soon enough in 2013 see who makes the grade.

By the way I am prepared to lay a bet - by May 2013 Jantjies will NOT be the no 10 for the Stormers.

 

 


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 11:57:17

 Yeah Beeno but for too long now SA rugby has been selecting good players but not the best.. Why play Hougaard if he cant make the team at 9? Yes he is a good player but he is not the best at wing. Why play Lambie when he is good at 15 but much better at 10? Why play Taute when he is average at 13 but possibly great at 15. Same for JP and the wing vs centre debate. 

 

We need our best players in their positions to play in their positions. No space for Jantjies and Engelbrecht and the likes right now. This is why we are falling short on the world rankings. Too much dumb experimenting to be frank.

 

I dont care how big or how small a player is. If he adds value in his position and is the best in the country then he must play. End of story! Conrad Smith, Cory Jane, Israel Dagg, Dan Carter are not big guys but you name anyone in their respective positions that are better than them? Great size is only of massive importance if you need to hide a skill shortage. I am not saying you can be 60 kgs and its fine but guys like Aplon and them would be fine if they were better ball players. Aplon was the real deal but he has now gone off the boil a bit.


Saffex

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Posts: 9474
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 15:17:11

Boklogic, what I dont get is how stupid you are. Where on earth from a start do you get that Taute would be playing out of position at 13 or that Lambie would be doing the same at 15 - I know people like Mike are too stupid to grasp this fact, but come on, do I need to add you to this list as well?

Judging by your take, one would swear Taute had never played 13 or I was asking Lambie to play lock - get a bloody grip.

The art of a good coach is to get the fundamentals right, something Meyer has completely missed and clearly you lot seem to be stuck in the same dark crevice.

The most important fundamental is getting the team selection right. If we are to challenge the AB's for top spot, we need our 15 best players on the field, that does NOT entail leaving Lambie on the bench. If we were to follow your logic, that would mean either Goosen or Lambie would be left on the bench in the name of short sightedness and plain stupidity.

Here is a lesson for you. Goosen is our best 10 and only plays 10, therefore logic dictates we select him as the Bok flyhalf - you with me at this stage?

Lambie plays 10 and 15, we have a 10 in place therefore logic dictates we play Lambie at 15 - you with me?

Taute plays 15 and 13, we have Lambie at 15, therefore Taute has to be considered at 13 - its that bloody simple.

Taute is equally good at 13 and 15 as is Lambie at 10 and 15. We lose nothing by playing them in either position and gain everything by having Goosen, Lambie and Taute in our starting 15 as they represent amongst the best youngsters we have at our disposal. Its that simple, if you dont comprehend that then stick with Meyer for what he dishes out equates with your take on things and delivers chest beating results that have the Boks winning 57% of their tests in 2012.

I really do struggle to understand how people cannot understand the very obvious fact - why oh why would you not want Taute, Goosen and Lambie in your starting 15.........just like you would want Frans, Habana, JP and Hougaard at 9 joining them.


Arthur John

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 665
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 15:51:08

 Guys you have to understand A girl selection plan.

He will reassign players to positions that they are not comfortable or skilled in so that he can keep the #10 spot open for family member/hero "EARL ".

James at #10...A girl get real man.....add more water to what you are drinking or double up on the meds 

PLEASE.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9474
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 16:18:45

AJ try keep it real instead of bull[removed]ting your way through the process........where in any of my posts have I selected Jantjies ahead of Goosen as my 10 you stupid clown?

James at 10, why not last I checked he had played most of his rugby there


clevermike

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Posts: 13133
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 19:53:50

A girl

I never said Taute cannot play at center - even though he had since 2009 only played 10% of his rugby in that position.  I always said he is a brilliant full back and average to mediocre center - he cannot make the center position his own - because he is just not good enough in that position. 

The only logic  applicable is that a player should always be selected in the position in which he performs best.   That component is totally absent from your line of thinking.   Only a real rugby ignoramus would come up with another idea.   Lambie is better at flyhalf than at full back - Taute is ten times better at full back than at center - Pietersen is a class act at wing and barely average at center.    Hougaard is potentially a good scrummie - he was very poor this year - but he is an absolute useless wing.

In the rare cases where a player is equally good in different positions - and those cases are exceptionally rare - it does not matter which positions players play in - but it definitely is not the case in the players mentioned in the previous paragraph.    In fact Plumtree moved Pieterse back to wing - because his play at center was not really meeting requirements and the Sharks backline was disfunctional.   The Taute experiment by playing him at center when the Lions centers were injured was not successful as well.

James at 10 is not going to be best for the Sharks and Lambie would be top choice.   In any event the Sharks has a top class full back in Lu[removed] in the squad - and your idea is based on the issue of future Springbok selection and has NOTHING to do with the functional efficiency of the Sharks backline.

I said it before - and I say it again - I am as a Shark supporter delighted that we have a brainy coach that would not use the A girl illogical madness.

   


Saffex

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Posts: 9474
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 20:14:25

Mike get this into your stupid head, you speak complete [removed] when it comes to Taute's attributes as a centre and therefore your text in bold above has no relevance at all.

Answer this wise man, if Taute was that poor as a centre then why did the national coach select him straight from injury........could it possibly be because he is a good centre and that you dont have a clue what you are talking about.........no need to ponder, you confirmed ages ago that you dont have a clue about what constitues a good modern centre.

The only ignoramus here is the stupid idiot who would leave one of Lambie or Goosen on the bench. My 15 year old son knows more about rugby than you do.

That brainy Sharks coach you have, is that the one that won you the S15 title last year or the one that played JP at 13 and said he was the best 13 in the country?


Arthur John

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 665
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 20:21:18

 James is a has been.

Seeing that your son is so in tune with rugby perhaps its time for him to take over the title and do the blogging for you.

Cheers.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9474
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 20:24:36

Well given you contribute stuff all to this site, I dont see how my sons contribution would make any impact on you


clevermike

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Posts: 13133
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 20:58:57

A girl

Plumtree made the Pietersen statement EARLY IN 2012 - when he actually wanted to justify his selection of Pietersen at center.  He never repeated that statement and soon enough moved Pietersen back to wing - when the experiment did not poduced the desired results.

As to the Taute selection by Meyer - I frankly do not understand yoiur view on Meyer.   According to you Meyer is an idiot that made poor selections all-round.   Taute's selection at center was a mistake and Meyer realized it soon enough and moved Taute to full back in his announcement of the EOYT squad.   Let me get it straight - when Meyer select your favourite players - he is tops - when he does not - he is a fool.  IS THAT THE CASE HERE?


Saffex

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Posts: 9474
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 21:07:42

Mike no need to bull[removed] to make a point............Plumtree would not have said that to justify his selection - it was based on fact JP was damn good at 13. The reason JP moved back to wing, was to accomodate Jordaan who had been playing so well at 13 in the Vodacom Cup - made perfect sense at had stuff all to do with JP's performance at 13.

Meyer was then going to play JP at 13 on the EOYT for a reason - get it?

As for Meyer, well he does not get ALL his selections wrong, I have never said he did - I have said he has got too many wrong.

One he got very right was Taute at 13 and he selected Taute there for a reason - not as your ignorant mind will have down as being a poor 13 - you speak complete and utter kak. Taute walked straight into the Bok starting side at 13 and that was straight from an injury lay off.

To discard Taute as a 13 after 3 tests is just pathetic, especially considering 2 of those tests were good ones


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 22:01:37

Ha ha Saff, if I had a dollar for everytime you have called another blogger "stupid" on here, I would be smiling. Lets get this straight, 100 of us agree, you disagree and 100 of us are stupid? Saff, you are the stupid one!

 

International rugby is not your sons u15 team where the best players play no matter where just to be on the park. Out of thousands of rugby players in the country, we can only select 15 run on players. U follow me?

So , having said that, if Goosen is better than Lambie at 10 (which I dont believe is the case. Goosen just gets more game time there at his union therefore more exposure to the position) then Goosen must play and Lambi bench. Same as any other position. We want Schalk Burger and Alberts on the field. We cant now drop Etzebeth to make way for Coetzee too. Unfortunately, although Coetzee is a fantastic player, he is not the best in his position so he does not make the run on team. Get how that works. This is international rugby man! You off your game for 1 second and you will have 100 people chomping at your heels.

 

Taute is good, he is not that good that we need to make way for him. He is likely to be a very good 15. If he is good enough to make it as our number 1 fullback, he must play. If not, we can not shift him to 13 to accommodate. He is not good enough in that position as has been proven so he can not make the team until he proves to be the best in a specialist position. Competition for places. Keeps the guys sharp. What message are we sending out by "accommodating" guys who aren't good enough at their preffered positions?

 

Yes, its hard to think that guys like Frans Steyn and Lambie do not make the team but if they are left out because there is a better performing 10 and 12 then thats what needs to happen. No accommodating. We have accommodated your Taute and Engelbrecht at 13, Hougaard and all the rest of them out of position this year and where did that get us?

We not interested in names like Taute must play because hes Taute or Hougaard must be accommodated because of what he has done before...We interested in who is gona take us forward and who is performing in their positions now, not in the past or what you believe they can do and from what position. If big names are not better than "smaller" names, they miss out. Easy as that!!

 

Now stop telling people they stupid or talking kak. That is what we believe of you. Prove us wrong and snap out of this "[removed] for brains" bubble you in! 


Saffex

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Posts: 9474
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 06, 2013, 23:42:32

Boklogic - who are the stupid 100 you are on about?

Yes dimwit, its about selecting the best 15 from the 1000 you bang on about. Within the 15, Goosen, Lambie and Taute should be selected as they represent the best at our disposal.

Goosen is a better flyhalf than Lambie and time will prove that and I'll put my house on that fact. So with Goosen at 10, you would be stupid enough to leave Lambie on the bench - its this kind of thinking that has us winning 57% of our matches. Instead of wasting Lambie on the bench the obvious thing to do is play Lambie at 15 where he is equally at home. Its not like we have depth at fullback.

Given the above, logic dictates that I would consider Taute at 13, along with the likes of JJ, Jordaan and Howard.

What the hell you on about dropping Etzebeth, what does that have to do with Schalk and Alberts. Schalk is done, so forget his return, we dont need him, we have better youngsters about, starting with Coetzee, who happens to be the best in his position.

Get this into your head, I am not accommodating the likes of Taute or Lambie, they happen to be equally adept at two positions, so no accommodating required.

Where do you get this complete hogwash about Taute having to play because he is Taute - what the hell is that about? What I dont comprehend is how stupid you lot are. The way you lot are carrying on, one would think I was asking that Taute play lock just so that I have him in my side - get a bloody grip man.

My side has Goosen at 10, because he is easily our best 10. Lambie and Taute are probably on a par as fullbacks, but Lambie cant play 13, so I'd select him at 15, leaving Taute to compete for 13. If Taute did not prove our best option at 13 then nothing stops one considering him at 15 if Lambie was struggling.

Equally if Frans struggles at 12, nothing stops Serfontein, Whitehead or Venter from displacing him. Nothing is set in stone except for the stupid call of leaving an in form Lambie on the bench because of a narrow minded stance that he should only be considered as a 10. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. And thats why I call you lot stupid for it is nothing short of stupid


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 07, 2013, 00:33:56

Wrong again Saff. You making this a habit aren't you ;-)

 

Remember Ruan Pienaar's glory days for the Sharks. He was so talented and playing such fine rugby that the Boks had no choice but to pick him. They didnt really have place for him at the position in which he made a name for himself (9) because Fourie Du Preez was there. What did they do? They accommodated him at Flyhalf and Fullback and nearly ruined the man's career. In fact, to this day he is not the same player he was and he has warned Lambie about letting them do that to him. International rugby is the pinnacle of the game. Everyone in their positions MUST be a specialist. Lambie is in great form. You are right. He is in great form at flyhalf, much like Pienaar was at 9, so why would you put an in form flyhalf at 15? Maybe you have never played the game but as I man that has, I can tell you that the roles of a 10 vs 15 are very different and although he has the skills to adapt, why would you take a real good 10 and make him an average 15?

 

Taute is a real good 15 in my opinion. Why do you want to see the man struggle at 13. He has been struggling and was a weak link in the AB's test this year. It is all about beating the AB's isn't it? How does it go..To be the best we must beat the best!! 13 is a very different role to 15 and it takes time. Look at Jaques Fourie. Once he became a solid performer at 15 for the Boks, he was drafted into 13 in a master stroke by Jake. Taute needs that same management. He is not even close to good enough for a test centre.

 

Coetzee is not the best in his position at the moment and he was rightfully relieved of his starting duties. He will get better for it. He has some way to go before you can make the call that he is better than Schalk dont you think? What Schalk brings to that team can not be seen by the naked eye but can be felt. Players like Bismarck, Schalk, Juan Smith, Fourie Du Preez, Montgomery, Matfield, Bakkies are all special players that can change a game. They lead by example and are disgusted to lose a battle! Alberts is better than Coetzee and Flouw is in better form too. Kankowski offers more at 8 than Coetzee does. Coetzee will get there but he needs to work harder than ever now. All this competition is great for SA rugby. If Schalk is anything like the player he was, put his name on the 6 jumper. No doubt. Same with Juan Smith at 7! If these two have 1 more WC in them, they get my vote. Will be awesome for guys like Coetzee to learn from them!

 

What I meant by dropping Etzebeth for Coetzee was taking the piss out of you because you would queit simply drop anyone, no matter how good they are, to accommodate your ludicrous selections. We should check how Jantjies goes on the wing in place of the "past it" Habana..

 

Saff back line:

15 Lambie

14 Engelbrecht

13 Taute

12 Serfontein

11 Jantjies

10 Goosen

9 Hougaard

 

Score vs AB's = Priceless!!!

Not bad players (except Jantjies) but badly out of position. Good players + preferred positions = Good team.. Good players + out of position = a whole bunch of average..Why would you want average Saff? Get my drift.

As I said before, we only have 15 spots. Its a pity we cant have 10 people in the 13 jersey on match day. We can only have 1 which unfortunately means 9 are going to miss out. Some good names are going to miss out but thats international rugby..No accommodating!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9474
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 07, 2013, 01:21:57

What a load of crap, for a start Pienaar proved pretty good at 10, I recall him winning MOM with an outstanding display there against the Poms - trouble is the coaches never stuck with him and instead we saw the investment in bog ordinary Morne.

The problem with your argument is that its flawed in that you are 100% wrong about Taute at 13. He was not the weak link against the AB's bull[removed], the likes of Jean and Habana were just as poor on the day - FACT. Taute got beaten fair and square by Dagg and you now want to ditch him after one average test - how pathetic. Fact is Taute had good tests against Oz and Ireland at 13 - thats 2 out of 3 and you want to throw in the towel on him?

Coetzee was played out of position at test level another failing by Meyer. He is a better option that the crash ball Alberts or Vermeulen for that matter. Both good players but Coetzee has more skill to him.

Man oh man, so you want to see hasbeens like Schalk and Juan in our side......you are no better than Meyer and we wonder why we dont stand a chance of challenging the AB's with conservative selections like this.

You have it wrong as does Meyer and until we start winning 85% of our tests with these conservative out of touch selections, my money stays firmly with my stance that players like Coetzee, Goosen, Taute, Lambie and co should be starting.

As for your crap on accommodating, I am not accommodating anyone, just selecting the best 15, which includes the players above.

As for my backline, where did you drag that [removed] from - let me guess yours would look something along the lines of:

15. Kirchner 14. JP 13. Fourie 12. Jean 11. Habana 10. Morne 9. du Preez no doubt.......add Steenkamp, Bakkies, Schalk and Juan to the forwards


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 07, 2013, 02:15:30

A girl, I must agree with you re. Pienaar. I liked him at 10 and I believe that could have been his best position. No doubt.

Taute is not bad at 13. He is a good player but he is not OUR BEST 13 and that is all we are saying. If he cant make the 15 jersey his own, then unfortunately, he needs to get better. Dont just throw him into 13 where he is good but not great. We need great. All internationals need to be the best in the country in their positions and he is not the best 13. Just like Engelbrecht. Just like Jantjies at 10. Jordaan is much better at 13 than Taute. Schalk and Juan may be hasbeens but you cant say that for sure. They may come back rested (as McCaw is doing with sabbatical) and their injuries may have preserved them for 1 more WC.

 

A girl, you are too quick to throw good servants of the game out ala JDV and Habana. I will tell you right now, Schalk and Juan may be past it and then they must not be selected but if they are anything close to what they were before their injuries, then we dont have two better loose forwards in the country. As you like to say..FACT!!

 

Taking Schalk and Juan out as we have not seen them play and based on 2012 performances, I would want to see:

15 Ludik

14 Jp

13 Jordaan

12 JDV

11 Habana

10 Lambie

9 Reinach (only because Hougaard sucked this year)

8 Kankowski

7 Alberts

6 Fourie (Coetzee is not really a fetcher)

5 Bekker

4 Etzebeth

3 Jannie

2 Bismarck

1 Beast


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 07, 2013, 07:30:42

boklogic

A girl and I have known each other personally for at least 8 years and he is a nice guy.   From our postings it may not seem like it - but I have a high regard of his knowledge of the talented yougsters in SA.  

I like some of them very much as well - but I cannott support them on the basis of potential - for me they must prove that they are the best in their respective positions to qualify for selection.    That is where I differ from  a lot of members of this site.   I am inclined to be extremely critical when I believe the expereienced players let down the team.    Unfortunately too many players in 2012 diid not play up to their full potential and did not deliver the goods as expected.

Three of the players I am disappointed in were Morne Steyn, Francois Steyn and Hougaard.  

*   Morne Steyn was never my idrea of a great no 10 - he is to my mind really one-dimensional and dependded too much on his kicking game to be really effective    In tests in 2012 his kicking game went from average to  start with to ridiculously poor - I think in some ways it was psychological, but in the end he simply lost the plot completely.

*   Franois Steyn always was one of the best backline players in SA with really full reliance on his physical strength.   When I first saw him in 2007 playing for the Sharks at full back - he a very tall slimmish player at 98kgs.   Like all very tall players he was deceptively fast because he was so longstriding.    My assessment of him was confirmned when I flew back from Australia on the same flight as the Springbok team.   Since then He has put on another 12 kgs in weight and I believe sincerely he lost some speed.   He was carrying about 5 kgs more weight than he should as a muscular backline player.   During the tests in 2012 I believe he lost the plot to some extent and his off-loading of balls in tackle situations became virtually non-existent and way too many times he crashnalled rather ineffectively.    Part of the reason was he iwas slow off the mark and his skills level became extremely limited in scope.   That was not remotely like the Francois Steyn I used to admire - he was about as effective as Marcell Coetzee would be playing at center.  

*    Framcois Hougaard aleways was a good scrummie and he showed it earlier as a 21 yea-old.   However, he lost the plot completely in 2012.   His kicking game became ridiculously poor and his passing game was nothing to write home about.   I believe his problem was due to psychological issues  - his reading of th game deteriorated and he became too self-centered.   He tried too much and was largely unsuccessful in that regard,   Basically his unsuccessful personal efforts impacted on the overall performances of the Boks and that I believe were the reasons for Meyer removing him from the scrummie position.

Now lets get back to the other two expereienced players mentioned by you. - namely Burger and Smith.   Burger to my mind was for many years one of the best lossies in world rugby and there can be no doubt about that.   Smith was to my mind also very good - even though his ball-handling skills at times went AWOL  - it used to drive me crazy when he knocked on balls and his passing game was ineffective.   Burger to my mind was one of aour best ball-sense players amogst the forwards.

However, I am not sure whether Francois Steyn, Hougaard, Burger and Smith will make the grade in 2013.   I have high hopes for Steyn and Hougaard since they are young and can get over the problems (both physical and  psychologic) which detrimentally affected their performances in 2012.   I am not so sure about Burger and in particular Smith in the relevant regard.   Smith in particular played no rugby for more than 2 years and at 32 is no spring chicken.   What worries me most is whether the nature of their injuries would not affect their performances.   The latter aspet is important - older players are more injury - prone and take longer to recover and in the case of both players those are worrying factors.   In any event I doubt very much whether they can make the 2015 WC at all and I do believe we should build up players towards that end in more particular.

No back to the Taute issue.   he has loads of potential - but whether A girl like it or not - since 2009 he played exclusively as a full back - where his performance records were excellent.   In a weakish outfit he was the real point machine and his runs from full back really was spectacular.   He was moved from full back to center by the Lions only in April 2012 and played only three full games in that position and in the fourth game he was injured.  After one come-back game as center on CC level - Meyer plunged for him as the choice for 13 - due to the injury to Francois Steyn and moving of De Villiers to 12.    Unlike his excellent performances at full back - Taute turned out to be very average as a center - in my crticism of his performances i may be over-critical, but to my mind he showed nothing as a center.   That is one of the reasons - I believe - for Taute's expressed preference for playing at full back in future - as well as the actions of both the Springbok and Stormers coaches aboiut his future career propsects.

As you so rightkly pointed out - there are vast differneces between playing at 10 and 15 - as well as playing btween 13, 14 and 15.   These differences are largely ignored by A girl - who implicitly believes that players are physically strong enough to be effective in the various positions.   Basically it may be potentially possible - but specialization is the name ofthe game and in the process a lot is lost in the performance stakes.   That is why positional changes are so dangerous and largely ineffective in the initial year or so.   In most cases the players themselves really do not  adjust effectively and Ruan Pienaar was 100% correct in his assessment of the situation.

Taute MAY develop into a top class center by 2015 - but the emphasis is on MAY and it is effectively a major gamble to go that way.   It could have a detrimental effect on his career prospects  and could detrimentally affect the performances of the team as a whoile.   I would much rather see that Taute specialize as a full back - he is not desperately needed at 13 as A girl made it out to be the case.   We have ample  younger resources than the present centers in players like Jordaan and De Allende and of the Juniors Serfontein, Howard and  Small-Smith have loads of potential as centers.   The best one at present is Jordaan - a better 13 on Super 15 level than Taute and another A girl favourite (Engelbrecht)) ever showed  in 2012.   

However, nothing we wrote will ever change the mind of A girl - he thinks Goosen. Lambie and Taute must at all costs be in the team and wants to force the issue artificially into implemntation.   He does not believe that Taute is a better full back than center - he does not believe Lambie is a better fluhalf than full back and nothing will convince him otherwise.   His reading of their performances is largely illogical and may even be illusionary - as he sees assets where there are very little or even nothing in evidence.

My pick at full back reamians Taute - he was brilliant in tht position throughout the period he played there from 2009 to 12012 for the Lions - much better than :Lambie was when he playe there in the past.   I am a great admirer of Lambie at 10 and equally so of Goosen - they would remain my top picks for the latter position and I believe competition for positions are good and healthy.

In essence there are so many talented players that can make their name in Super 15 this year - |I am looking forward very much to what they can produce and will not be surprised at all if there are players coming to the fore and pushing out of the Springbok team some of the established and experienced players.   In that A girl i correct - the potential players are huge - but utlimately only PROVEN PERFORMANCES should be the norm.     

 

 

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12206
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 07, 2013, 09:10:34

For me size and eperience is not the real norms - the real ones are ball sense and performance.

Well Mike of course performance is the isuue. Its just that small guys dont perform - the exception proving the rule.

Put very simply bigger guys can have ball sense and skills plus the many advatages of size. The piks should stay safely on the stands and watch the game from there. 

Name me the small guys who should be in the Bok squad. To my mind there is only one Deon  Fourie the best number 6 playing in South Africa in 2012 thus far - by far. Possibly one of the form flankers in the world.

Small forwards - under say 105 kg. Small backs under 90kg.

Don't come with Jordaan please Mike - he is NOT small being some 92 kg I believe.

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12206
RE: Sharks super 15 squad
January 07, 2013, 09:28:39

Mike I have to agree with you and Boklogic. Lambie is a better 10 than 15 and Taute a better 15 than 13. In addition they prefer these positions.

For some reason snapster can't see any reason for a country having two top flyhalves! ITs actually VITAL you do have two top guys to call on in this crucial position.

The facts are that this is where things are going  in 2013.


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