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Beeno1

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Year of the Rookie
December 27, 2012, 14:02:13

Ex Rugby 365

The year 2012 has seen a host of talented young players burst onto the international rugby scene; we take a look at the best rookies of the year.

The year after a World Cup often signals the passing of different generations, with many sides in a 'rebuilding' phase, and 2012 was no exception with a few young players making a massive impact on the big stage.

It is one thing to stand out at age-group level on your way to the top, but the players we have selected have all shown their class by adjusting quickly to the demands of Test rugby and imposing themselves at the highest level.

So without further ado, here are the rookies who made us sit up and take note this year.

Eben Etzebeth:
Those who were worrying about who would fill Bakkies Botha's boots in the Springbok No.4 jersey had their concerns eased by the rapid rise of this behemoth from the Cape. Etzebeth's hulking frame ensured that he caught the eye in 2011 playing Varsity Cup for UCT and in Dawie Theron's junior Springbok side, and he had little difficulty stepping up to the next level this year. It is quite rare for a tight forward to blossom at such an young age, but Etzebeth has defied the accepted wisdom by stamping his authority as an enforcer of the highest quality at both Super Rugby and Test level. Whilst he may have come in for some criticism for carrying the ball too often and not hitting enough rucks, his value in the set-pieces is undeniable and he certainly makes his presence felt on defence. At just 21 Etzebeth seems to have the rugby world at his feet, and his biggest challenge now will be to build on a remarkable break-out season.

Michael Hooper:
Hooper is the latest player to roll off the Wallaby openside flank production line, and took the gap presented by David Pocock's knee injury incredibly well. The dynamic loose forward was one of the stars of Jake White's competitive Brumbies side, terrorising the opposition with his seemingly limitless energy. Whilst his skills at the breakdown are very valuable, Hooper's greatest strength is his work-rate which sees him top the tackle count consistently and score more than his fair share of tries. Having signed for the Waratahs, Hooper will be intent on continuing his encouraging form under the guidance of Michael Cheika in Sydney.

Aaron Smith:
With former New Zealand Under-20 skipper TJ Perenara sidelined through injury the nippy Highlanders scrumhalf with the bullet pass grabbed the opportunity to establish himself in the All Blacks side. Although facing competition from the combative Tawera Kerr-Barlow and veterans Piri Weepu and Andy Ellis, Smith made the No.9 jersey his own with a series of convincing performances. His pace around the fringes makes him a considerable threat with ball in hand, whilst the speed and quality of his distribution makes life much easier for his backline. He will face some stiff competition for his spot from both Kerr-Barlow and Perenara in 2013, but they will have their work cut out for them if they are to unseat the All Black incumbent. (How good is his temprement is a question?)

Johan Goosen:
Few players begin their professional careers with as much hype and expectation as the former Grey College star. The Cheetahs playmaker started with a weighty reputation thanks to his achievements as a schoolboy, and proceeded to give everyone a taste of what all of the fuss was about. His pinpoint goal-kicking saw him scale the points-scoring charts in Super Rugby, and impressive tries against the Crusaders and Highlanders showed that he is far more than just a reliable boot. That try against the Highlanders also saw him sidelined with a shoulder injury, which he recovered from in time to make his Springbok debut in the Rugby Championship. Another injury soon afterwards has raised questions of how injury-prone the committed young flyhalf will be in the coming years, but there are few that deny his considerable potential. (NOT TO BE RUSHED PLEASE MEYER - resist the calls by snasper and company for his being made number 1 flyhalf this year - at the most allow him to understudy Lambie and Morne)

Owen Farrell:
There were more than a few raised eyebrows when Farrell was nominated as IRB player of the year, but his composed performance in England's victory over the All Blacks showed exactly why he is rated so highly. Although his father is the assistant coach, there is no doubt that Farrell deserves his place in the starting line-up and looks set for a long Test career. Having made his professional debut for Saracens at the tender age of 17, Farrell is used to dealing with significant pressure which is a skill he will have to draw on as England coach Stuart Lancaster looks to build a team around him ahead of the 2015 World Cup. (Looks to be a very good find)

Julian Savea:
As Test debut's go, scoring a hat-trick against Ireland is a fairly solid start, and Savea did not slow down from there either, crossing the tryline 12 times in his nine Tests so far. The 2010 IRB Junior World player of the year and former New Zealand Sevens ace made his presence known in a prolific Super Rugby campaign for the Hurricanes, using his balance of pace and power to get over the whitewash regularly and force his way into All Blacks contention. There are some doubts about his ability under the high ball, but there are few who can match his finishing ability, and at full steam there is not much that can stop this freight train who will have to prove that he can survive as a marked man next year. (Well Lomu never scored against us and the Boks will contain him)

Wesley Fofana:
The Six Nations might have been one to forget for France, but one major positive was the emergence of Wesley Fofana who scored a try in each of his first four Tests. The explosive centre, who is also comfortable on the wing, has shown that he has both the speed and physicality to take on the best. Nicknamed 'Cheetah' in France for his speed off the mark, Fofana has what it takes to become a top-class backline player, and should be a key player for France in 2013

Okay so who is missing?


clevermike

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RE: Year of the Rookie
December 27, 2012, 15:48:16

Beeno

Have you gone ballistic?   Goosen to understudy Morne????????  Blaas my siel!!!!!! 


Beeno1

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RE: Year of the Rookie
December 27, 2012, 16:34:35

Mike may your soul indeed be blessed - with wisdom and understanding - hahahahaha.

Please understand what I am suggesting. The point I am making is this kid is not physically ready for senior rugby  -two injuries ar ean indication of this. Mike he needs time to harden up. I would like to see him stick to under 21 rugby.  Even Super 15 rugby is a worry.  Goosen is potentially our best flyhalf and too valuable to rush.

If Morne regains his kicking prowres I would prefer  him to Jantjes right now. Jantjes though can prove me wrong in the Super 15.

This trashing of Morne is totally rediculous. he is a decent enough flyhalf and can playing a running game if required as we have seen a number o time swith the bulle. Any kicker or golfer can find his stroke going awry. Now Morne has the Super 15 to show he is back. If he woes with the boot continue he will not feature. Remember this is another player played into the ground.

Lambie right now is our flyhalf and I am happy with him till Goosen is ready.

Another one to watch is the cool Cat. He will have a very difficult time with the queens. If he does well there then he may come into the picture as well.

 


clevermike

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Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 27, 2012, 20:10:17

My grading of present flyhalfs are as follows:-

1 and 2   -   Goosen and Lambie - both are basically on par

3             -   Morne Steyn

4             -   Grant

5             -   Ebersohn

6            -   Catrakilis

7            -   Swiel

8            -   Pollard

9            -   Van Aswegen

10          -   Jantjies

 

 


Saffex

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Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 27, 2012, 22:45:12

What complete bullshit

The flyhalf ranking is:

1. Goosen

2. Lambie

3. Jantjies

4. Grant

5. Catrakilis

Since we have Goosen as our best, we would certainly not want to waste Lambie on the bench and therefore we would select him at fullback instead of Kirchner - its that simple.


Saffex

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Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 27, 2012, 23:12:22

If Meyer had had more balls we might have had a few more rookies on that list - investment in the likes of Lambie, Rhule, Mapoe, Jordaan, Taute, JJ, Serfontein,Whitehead, Jantjies, Reinach, Kitshoff, Marcel v/d Merwe, Malherbe, Fourie, Steph du Toit, Bresler, Kolisi, Coetzee, CJ Stander, Elstadt and Arno Botha might have seen one or two of these worthy rookies make the list.

Meyer needs to wake up and use some of these rookies next year along with the likes of Goosen, Hougaard at 9, W le Roux, Pat Howard, F.Venter, de Allende, JP du Plessis, Sadie, Mjekevu, Sithole, v/d Heever, v/Zyl, Coenie, Nkanyne, Mellet, Frik Kirtsen, Rossouw de Klerk, Callie Visagie, Chiliboy, Quinn Roux, JA Marais, Peet Marais, Paul Willemse, D.Potgieter, Rhodes, Brussouw, Daniel, v/Wyk etc


clevermike

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Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 05:05:31

I agree with you about Goosen and Lambie - where I disagree is on the full back issue.   Taute has proved it - he really is to my mind our top full back.   If Meyer had the balls to pick him at full back he would be near the top of th rookie list - at center he does not make it.

I disagree about the one further  issue - we really need two flyhalfs to be ready to play and guard against injuries.   Much better to have one playing with one on the bench and the other in the starting line-up giving both sunstantial playing time.

All the players mentioned by you - bar some older ones who cannot be regarded as rookies - need further experience on  Super 15 level before they really can move up to Springbok level.   Hougaard needs to get rid of his deficiencies he showed this year - he is no rookie in any event - before he can come in at scrummie again. 

Of the others I may mention I was very impressed with what I saw of De Allende on CC level - but I would like to see how he plays on Super level.   Jordaan thus far was vey good at Super level - but he needs more game time on that level.   

Earl Jantjies the no 3 flyhalf in SA - what a joke.   He is a poor replica of Morne Steyn - playing even deeper in the pocket than Morne Steyn - with the difference that his manufactured hospital passes are legendary.       I don't rate him at all - he is in my book lucky to make no 10 on the rating scale.


clevermike

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Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 05:48:41

Let us look at the future a bit - say to 2015 and see which players can be in contention by then:-

Full back

I think the really top contenders will be Taute and Swiel - I have never before seen a player with more ball sense than the latter one.   Would like to see how he develops in future on Super 15 level.

Wings

Habana and Pietersen is likely to be still the main contenders - with Habana nearing the end of his career.   Like what I saw about Rhule and we may have some other youngsters coming through as well   All need more playing time at Super level before we can really make a replacement pick

Centers

De Villiers is past it and Francois Steyn may - unless he shows much better than he did this year - not make the grade.    Of the younger crowd only Jordaan has shown real class on Super and CC level and De Allende on CC level.    The other promising youngsters have not made any or very limited appernces on CC level and in the main played on Under 21 level.   I like what I saw of Serfontein, Howard and Small-Smith on junior level and hope to see more of them on Super 15 and CC level.   In the meantime the top contenders remain Steyn (huge question mark), Jordaan and De Allende/

Flyhalfs   

Goosen and Lambue - no further discusion necessary.

Scrummies

Hougaard - subject to him getting over the serious deficiencies he showed this year - Reinach and Groom.

Loosies

Sad to say - but some of the older players will not make it.   I think of the existing loosies Vermeulen, Coetzee  and Louw would still be around.   Add to that Arno Botha, Elstadt,  Stander and Liebenberg and we will have it made.

Locks

Etzebeth plus I think Du Toit are destined for greatness.   There are a number of younger players coming through that will need game time on Super 14 level to identify back up players  

Props

Oosthuizen (if he gets over his injuries) - Malherbe and Kitshoff

Hookers

Du Plessis ad Strauss - no further discussion necessary

2013 and 2014 will have more rookie names added - so watch out for the future.


Beeno1

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Posts: 8839
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 09:00:26

Meyer has a huge amount of talent available. If only it  stays available. We are having far too many injuries which cause huge dusruptions. It is vital the Super 15 franchises manage their players professionally. Again we come back also to central contracting.

The guys who will be in the mix next year:

Beast, Coenie, Kitshof, Jannie, Malherbe. Marcell, CJ Van Rensburg

Bissie, Strauss and Liebenberg (Very underated)

Etzebeth, Flip, Bekker, Du Toit (One hopes he steps up) Elstadt

Burger, Louw, Vermuelen, Alberts, Coetzee, Elstadt (I deeply regret the departure of Stander) Deon Fourie and Brussouw (Meyer must take note of this guy)

Hougaard, Reinach and Groom (Also able to play at international level are Sarel and Jano Vermaak) What about van Zyl. He looked outstanding at the earlier part of the year. Huge resources.

Lambie, Goosen and Kat ( This boy may be a big surprise. He has BMT , tackles above his weight and is a very cool customer. Guy like Swiel will not be ready.

Habana, JP, Rhule, Van Der Heever and Mapoe (Movo maybe as well - I felt he was upping the physical side of his game)

Jean (Noways is he finnished yet) Frans, Jordaan, Allende and Du Plessis.

Taute and Kirchner and possibly Joe Pietersen.

Regarding the very young players - they have to show they have an edge at Super 15 level AND that they are physically hard enough to play at that level first before we shove them into international rugby. What will 2013 bring for Jan Serfontein? Will Johan Sadie recover the magic he showed in 2011?

To me guys like Kitshof, Malherbe and Elstadt are there or thereabouts now . However a guy like Du Toit, who appears to have a brilliant future, must prove himself at Super 15. Goosen has to show he is physically up to it as well.  Great young players must not be rushed. There is actually little need to do this.

 

 

 

 


clevermike

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RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 09:58:55

Beeno

I was looking at the longer term - not 2013.   Some older players will not make 2015 - De Villiers being one of them.  Also Jannie and Beast unlikely to make that year and Burger will definitely not be in the mix then.  

There are three players I mentioned that will by then surpise you and those are De Allende, Swiel and Du Toit.  Maybe not next year already - but certainties by 2014.  


Saffex

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Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 15:53:32

Mike for a start you speak complete crap when it comes to Taute. You will find he has played most of his rugby anywhere but fullback. He played throughout his school career at flyhalf and centre. Played two seasons for the Bok U20's as a centre and has played much of his 1st class rugby as a centre and fullback - therefore the conclusion one would draw from his rugby playing days is that he has played centre more than he has played fullback.

He is an allrounder who can play fullback or centre. The Boks need him at centre - why for the simple reason we have Lambie at 15 and Goosen at 10 - if you can't comprehend that then you must be plain stupid


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6439
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 16:04:51

So far only Etzebeth has proved his credentials.

 

Coetzee was a tackler, nothing more.

 

Goosen was so nervous against the ABs he almost missed from dead in front.....can he live with the pressure, only time will tell.

 

Jordaan looked promising in the S15 final, but was outplayed by de Jongh in the CC final.

 

Jantjies, Taute, Mvovo, Hougaard at scrummie, Greyling, Werner Kruger, Flip Flop, Daniels.....all failed to greater and lesser extents.

 

The year of the rookie? Pshaw!!!!!


Beeno1

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RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 16:19:32

Mike if you read my post I mention Allende and Du Toit. Please note Beast i s 27 and so could make the team. Jannie at 30 might not - especially given the amount of rugby he plays. Burger is 29 so maybe - we shall have to see how he goes.

Jordaan Dr Moz was certainly not outplayed. What was amazing about that match was how the sharks pack folded against a second string WP pack!!! 


clevermike

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Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 16:21:39

Saffex

I frankly am not interested where Taute played on school level - for me it counts for nothing - zero - zilch.   Think a bit about it - Etzebeth played as a wing on school level - not so?   Taute played at flyhalf and center on school level.   That was followed by SA Under 20 where Taute played at center for 10 games - and that is where his center career ended.

As an adult he played 64 games for he Lions - of which he played 61 full games at FULL BACK and then followed by 6 full games at center for the Lions and Springboks.   He was a brilliant full back and an average to poor center.

Your approach is simplitic and unprofessioal - you want to see three players in the Springbok backline - so you must find positions for them.   The only one to play in his natural position is Goosen - Lambie must go to full back - wher he does not want to play and where the does not perform on the same level as he  does at flyhalf - Taute must play at center where the situation is the same as is appliable to Lambie.   By doing that you turn top players into second class  players in positions they do not want to play and do not perform up to standard.

There is really no way professional coaches will fall for that type of scenario.   Taute will play at full back for the Stormers and his future career is that of full back.   I think he will perform excellently at full back and will be selected as Springbok in that position - Meyer shall not move him to center on a whimsical basis that he must make way for Lambie at full back - thus losing his expertise and good performance as a star full back.   The case with Lambie is similar - he will play at flyhalf for the Sharks - end of story.

You better start to accept it that your ideas about the three players are still-borne and will not materialize.

 

        

 

 

  

 


clevermike

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Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 16:35:26

Mozart

Welcome back - a wonderful Xmas and New Year to you and your family.   Sorry - but saying De Jongh outplayed Jordaan in the CC final based on a try as a result of space created by Catrakillis for him - is really not the case.   That try resulted in De Jongh being selected without regard to his abysmal other performances in 2012 as Springbok Center.   He was a massive failure in that position - that being the danger of selecting players on a rather unprofessional basis based on one try.          


Saffex

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Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 18:02:13

Mike stop bloody lying you fool, Etzebeth played lock for the Bok U20's fuck me.

As for Taute playing that many games for the Lions at fullback - bullshit.

There is nothing unprofessional about doing the obvious and that is play Goosen at 10, Lambie at 15 and Taute at 13.......why because wait for it Taute has actually played plenty of rugby as a centre and guess what Lambie has played plenty of rugby at fullback.

Only an ignorant twit would leave one of these three on the bench in the name of stupidity and shortsightedness.

 


Saffex

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Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 18:14:11

Typical negative bullshit from you Moz.................it should have been the year of the Rookie.

Morne was a complete disgrace all season, Goosen stepped in and was a revelation against Oz and solid against NZ.

Jean was pathetic at 13 all season, Taute stepped in against Oz and put in a far superior performance than Jean all season.

Hougaard was moved to wing, Pienaar brought in and proved a complete flop.

So in the backs we had complete flops from the old guard in Pienaar, Morne, Jean and Kirchner........and Meyers 57% reflects this.

In the forwards its gets worse with pathetic selections in CJ, Steenkamp and co. Meyer completely cocked it up here as he never even tried the young props we had sitting at home.

Etzebeth set the standard and showed why dumbass Meyer should have invested in more of our bright youngsters.

Take Coetzee who offered more than the crash bash stuff Alberts offered and he was relegated to the bench and we wonder why Meyer ended the year on 57%

Had good old Meyer ended the year on 87%, your snigger at the Rookies might have been worthy but fact is we were as crap as we were because we had far too many washed up hasbeens in our Bok side and not enough rookies and the results confirm just that.

If we start winning with your old farts on board I might start taking your anti our youngsters seriously until then your take on our youngsters is just the usual bullshit


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6439
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 20:53:25

Dave I see you never got any brains for Christmas. Let me help you:

1) Morne was fine, he simply lost his kicking form, which opened him up to a lot of mindless attacks. Lambie's general play was no better, but ironically his goal kicking was.

 

2) Goosen was about as solid against NZ as a wobbling jelly....he was scared out of his wits....and was run over for a key try.

 

3) Jean was our best centre by a mile....the stats prove that....even if you are too stupid to see his contributions.

 

4) Pienaar was much better than Hougaard at 9, and Hougaard had lots of chances.

 

5) Kirchner was always your man, never mine.

 

6) Steenkamp was wayyyyyy better than your back up Greyling.

 

7) We only came right after Louw replaced Coetzee.

 

8) Meyer won 7 matches....lost three. Two matches were indecisive.  Even if you give him no credit for the draws and charge him for the matches his ratio is 58.33% wins. But if you exclude the draws. His success ratio is 70%. Or you can just turn your dumb argument around and say his loss ratio is 25%.

 

Dave you are one stupid bugger.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 21:51:05

Saffex

Can you read English at all?   Etzebeth at school played at wing - and he was told clearly he should be a forward and after school moved to the lock position.   He played under 20 afterwards at lock.   School game means zilch and that is not even a consideration.  

The only bullshit on Taute playing at full back is spouted by you.   I gave the stats elsewhere as to games played since 2009 - as well as points scored and am not going to repeat it here other than to say during the period he playedfor the Lions at full back he scored 109 points - in the games he played at center he scored ZERO points,

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 22:01:35

One certainty Moz is that you are about the only clown who would conclude that Morne was ok, he has never been ok, always been a poor player with a good boot.

At what point in the test against NZ did Goosen wobble?

Jean our best centre wow, now thats just complete bullshit - the consesus was that he was poor. He was diabolical at 13 and marginally better at 12 all in all a complete and utter flop and Meyer blind faith in the lad was part of the cause of that 57%.

Pienaar was NOT better than Hougaard dont lie, hell we even had you banging on about how poor he turned out in the end. We achieved little with Pienaar's poor kicking, he added nothing on attack.

Kirchner was NEVER my starter, Lambie has always been.

Steenkamp was a disgrace, name a single post where I called for Greyling - keep it real if you want to debate these issues - my call was Kitshoff, Marcel v/d Merwe and the likes.

Coetzee was never a 6, good old Meyer got that wrong shock, shock

Meyers win record is 57% thats all I'm interested in and the very record shown against his name - he was a complete failure in his first year, thanks to the investement in has beens like Kirchner, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Steenkamp and CJ - not to mention the out of touch kick and chase game plan

But hey you keep kidding yourself that Meyer was ok and that the likes of Morne and Jean were ok, the joke is on you and our results back that up.

We did not fail because we used rookies, we failed because Meyer failed to use our rookies


Saffex

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Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 22:05:36

Mike you thick plank you said Etzebeth played centre for the Bok U20's

And dont give me that shit that school rugby counts for nothing - are you that bloody stupid, rugby at school is where you learn the art its your formative rugby years. If a player like Taute played flyhalf all his life at school, it would mean he would be pretty comfortable there at senior level - how bloody stupid are you - these points are so obvious its scarey.

I thought Beenkop was stupid but you take the cake


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 22:07:25

Mozart

Please - I expect more from you than you wrote above.   Morne Steyn was NOT FINE.   His whole kicking game - not only goalkicking - fell apart and Morne never was a really attacking flyhalf.  This year he was worse than before - he stood so far back behind the gain line that he might as well have been in the car park.    Really I know you defend only previous Springboks - but Morne this year was crap of the worst order.

Sorry Mozart - your take on Goosen was also rubbish.   There was no evidence at all about the jelly story and as for th tackle on Whitelock you missed the target completely.   You my have lost sight of the fact that at the time Goosen was behind the tryline receiving treatmnnet for his injury - when Taute failed to kick out the ball and the All Blacks started to attack.   Goosen - lieing on the ground receiving treatment - saw what happened got up and ran over to tackle Whitelock but although he tackled Whitelock effectively beforehe line - the latter stretched out and was able to score.   Your whole take on th issue is really crap.

I agree with you on De Villiers - he was better than yhe other crap centers - but he still was only barely average - nothing to write home about.

You are correct about Hougaard - but Saffex will never accept that.

Steenkamp was poor in the Edinburgh test and just about average in the London test.   There are much better props than him and the crap CJ van der Linde and Meyer fouled up badly in selecting them

 


Saffex

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Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 22:16:48

Fact is Goosen should never have started against the AB's - he got injured in the Oz test and was playing under an injury cloud, it was apparent early on in the AB test that Goosen was limping


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6439
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 28, 2012, 23:03:41

Dave you got one call right, the one everybody got right....Etzebeth. But for the rest Steyn at 12, JJ at 13, Taute at 13,  Mvovo on the wing, Hougaard at scrummie, Jantjies at 10, Goosen at 10, Greyling at loosehead, Daniels on the flank, Coetzee at flank, Flip Flop at lock. All bombastic, I'll brook no disagreement calls, from the original klip kop.

As I said many a time....nobody gets it more wrong.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 00:45:36

Actually the only one I have got wrong is Greyling but that was not down to his ability more down to his own stupidity.

Steyn at 12, was by far our best option, far, far superior to Jean and everyone will tell you that - you are the only one who thinks differently as one cant count stupid Mike - why do you think you are alone on this - I'll tell you why, because you are wrong as always.

JJ has not played 13 for the Boks so not possible to judge him there. He is the current Bulls 13 and his one performance of the season, was the best I have seen of any SA 13 all year. Meyer had him in his sights then stupidly dropped him after a 20min stint on the wing for the Boks where he got no ball - another poor Meyer call.

Taute was by far our best test 13 this year - far better than Jean who was pathetic at 13 and de Jongh was a complete non-entity. Taute had 3 tests at 13, two were good, one was poor - the difference between you and I is that you sadly define the guy by his poor test, I define him by the two good ones he had. So Taute has not been a flop at 13 at all.

Mvovo has always been good on the wing, go check his Super 15 stats, more metres gained than most our wings.

Hougaard has always been a scrummie and at times the worlds best, he does not just lose that over night and you are pretty naive if you think he has. He was poorly treated by Meyer and will return as our scrummie as Pienaar was a flop.

Ooh now all of a sudden Goosen was a flop at 10 was he - I am not even going to bother with that for its so pathetic its not worth the effort.

Jantjies has yet to start a test, was good against the AB's so has anything but flopped at test level.

Daniel never played flank for the Boks was wasted at 8 and discarded for no reason other than Meyer's shortsightedness, something he displayed all season.

So Coetzee failed at test level did he, again not worth a comment.

Flip has always been on the mark and had a great year at test level - we all know that and even you conceded that after one game

Fact is Moz, none of my calls have been flops simply because they have not been used. Instead we have Meyer following your pathetic course selecting past it hasbeens and delivering in the process a wonderfully inept 57% win rate for the year.

But only a fool like yourself could see the positives in 57% much like the positives in selections like Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Steenkamp and CJ.......you really do know how to pick the winners - you and Meyer must be so proud!!!!


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6439
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 00:53:26

Thick as a brick.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 01:03:45

The only thick prick here is the one that thinks Meyer did us proud - Moffie the brick is in your corner for you are the only stupid fool who thinks Morne was ok, Jean was our best centre and wait for it Steenkamp and CJ were good.

You are one stupid rugby supporter


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 03:07:20

Saffex

When anyone disagree with some of your odd-ball suggestions - you consider him as stupid - so I would not care at all what you think.

You made some sweeping statements in superlative terms how good Taute's Super 15  stats for this year was compred to other players who played at 13 - never realizing that Taute only played 3 games at center this year  in 2012.    Despite this the team sheets was wrong and in your  imaginatio Taute played at center.

Let m ask you one thing though - which game did Engelbrecht seen by you performed so well that you saw and mentioned above?    I saw every match he played in and cannot remember a single outstanding performance.   After he was released from the Springbok squad he played on CC level for the Bulls and the best description one can give of his performances in the matches against WP and the Sharks was piss-poor - the rest of the games was not much better.  So poor that JP du Plessis and Jordaan played the fool with him in the respective games.    The result was he really damaged badly his chances of future Springbok selection.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 03:24:22

Mozart

There are a number of youngsters that I am going to watch with great interest  in Super 15 next year.

Taute at 15 :  The experiment to play him at center backfired badly - but was such a good full back that he was nominated as player of the year in 2011.   I believe he is going to be one of the best full backs we can dream about.

Jordaan    :    He already had top class performances at Super 15 level and I want to see if he maintains momentum

De Allende :   Excellent on CC level - would like to see how he performs at Super 15 level.

Goosen     :    He was brilliant in Super 15 in 2012 nd I would like to see what happens this year 

 Du Toit      :    I believe  he will be the top rookie next year in Super 15.

Elstadt       :    I liked what I saw of him thus far - very good prospect

Players that performed below par this year and players coming back from injury to watch to see whether they can up their performances or are still reasonable performers are :-

Francois Steyn 

Morne Steyn

Hougaard

Burger

Oosthuizen 

 

 

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6439
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 07:02:08

Let's watch them, but let's not anoint them until they prove themselves. Poor old Dave so desperately wants to be this rugby brain who can see talent years in advance. This year he got one right and 10 wrong.....what a laugh!


Denny

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1514
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 13:54:31

"Poor old Dave so desperately wants to be this rugby brain who can see talent years in advance."

 

:36_11_6:


Denny

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1514
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 15:08:08


Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 2426
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 00:45:36

Actually the only one I have got wrong is Greyling but that was not down to his ability more down to his own stupidity.

"...the only one I have got wrong..."    Fookit, Shotgun is delusional as well......:36_11_6:


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 18:56:40

 Moffie, its not possible to get it wrong when the rookies are not selected. The only fool who got it wrong was Meyer who failed to select the rookies and his record to date backs up what a fool he was.

You are equally the fool for backing his selection. In conclusion you are as stupid as Meyer is

Mike I dont give a flying toss what you think about me and he one has to be bloody stupid if you would want to leave a player like Lambie on the bench.

Denise good to see you back, you had a facelift yet?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 20:23:49

Saffex

Come now - we are old friends and do not need to squabble on an unseemly basis on issues.  In fact I think we agree on more issues than we disagree on   and it centers around a few players only.  

Agree

We both think that Kirchner is not up to standard

De Jongh is a joke in bad taste

De Villiers at center was really not good enough

Morne Steyn was a poor selection

Steenkamp was a rubbish selection

Van der Linde was rubbish of the worst order

Meyer made serious selection errors and also made serious stratergy determination errors  thus far.

Disagree

After studying carefully his performances since 2009 and the fact that he played 90% of the games at full back - I believe that Taute should  play at full back - whilst you see him at center.   Actual future performances will have to indicate his career propects

I believe Francois Steyn did not have a good enough year at center - I think his performances were average - you think otherwise.   I believe he should feature in the Springbok team - but wants him to buck up considerably to get the best out of him.

I think there was a problem with Hougaard's performances this year - and hope that he can get over it,   You think I am wrong and that there was nothing wrong with his performances.

Jantjies is one player we seem to have irreconcilable differences on - I do not rate him at all, you think he is a good prospect. 

Summary

Insofar as Taute, Steyn and Hougaard is concerned - I do rate them as very good players - but I believe they can do better than they produced this year/ 

On the issue of experienced players  I think we are moe in agreement than we differ on them.   On the issue  of younger players coming through - we are basically on the same wave lengfth - even thoigh their may be some names where we differ.

I do not like personal arracks on the board and feel bad about what I said.   Lets agree to deal with differences on a gentlemenly basis, please. 

It is so bloody hot here - I have to get into the pool at least once every hour to cool down - and it is not necessary to get hot under the collar as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 29, 2012, 22:56:59

Agreed Mike


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6439
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 30, 2012, 07:13:39

 "Moffie, its not possible to get it wrong when the rookies are not selected."....says the squatter in the hut. Well let me help:

Mvovo played and dropped after he nearly lost the Bargie test, bottling out of taking a kick.

 

Taute played and dropped after he lost the NZ test and looked terrible against Ireland

 

Jantjies played and dropped after he went awol against NZ. So much so that his mates just stopped passing him the ball.

 

Goosen replaced after a nervous first half against NZ and another injury

 

Hougaard played and moved after a near disaster at scrummie against Oz 

 

Greyling played and dropped after some of the dumbest foul play ever.

 

Coetzee sent back to the reserve bench after the away tests, because other than tackling he wasn't much of a factor. And even the tackling is suspect as De Jongh bounced him for the CC winning try.

 

Daniels played and dropped when he couldn't handle the Bargies. As was that other great prospect Jacque Potgieter....a robotic lump of meat.  Somewhere along the line Pat Cilliers also disappeared.....and poor JJ Engelbrecht was apparently so clueless that 5 minutes was enough.

 

These guys all played and then were dropped. They never solidified their test places, not because they weren't given chances, but because they failed to take advantage of them. As I said before we had a rocky start, not because rookies weren't played, but because they were and turned out to be uncompetitive with our SH opposition.

 

The notion of a team of rookies is a pipe dream.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 30, 2012, 11:08:39

Mozart

I do not think that we must ever play a team of rookies and I also think that we should not play non-performing experienced players.   Performance should be the key in any case.

You are not obhjective in your assessment of two players though and those are Goosen and Coetzee.   Goosen in his time at Dunedin (20 minutes) and against OZ was ten times the player Morne Steyn was in all the tests he played in.   He did nothing wrong in the All Black test and he did not really have the opportunity to show much in the test because of injury.   In any event - he was carefully marked by the All Blacks - since they viewed him as a serious threat - something that never was necessary in the case of Morne Steyn.   Goosen has star quality written all over him and he will be back next year.

Whether you like it or not Coetzee will remain in the Bok set-up and he will play in the team and off the bench for years to come.   He was rated by the New Zealand commentators as the top floosie in Super 15 - beating even McCaw in their team selection for the Super 15 team of the year.   There is no way rthat anyone can say he is a weak selection.

Where I do agree with you is that Greyling, Jantjies, Werner Kruger, Engelbrecht and Daniels was not up to standard.   Daniels is a top player in Super 15 - but his size seems to make him ineffective at test level.   Taute should never have been selected at center - he is a top class full back and his future lies in the latter position.   Hougaard is no rookie - he played for the Springboks previously.

Of the rookie failures Greyling, Kruger. Jantjies and Emgelbrecht were never selected for the starting team.   Greyling, Kruger and Engelbrecht  had one thing in common - they all had Bull contracts - one of the weaknesss of Meyer was to pick Bulls players ahead of everyone else - making a complete hash of selections.   The bench playes concerned had limited playing time - the longest stretches onthe field was Jantjies (in the Soweto test - where he really was a negative) and Gryeling (which single-handedly destoyed the Boks efforts in the Dunedin test).

Seriously now - it is not realistic to pick on the bench players with limited playing exposure and single them out as failures - while not admiting that the players in the starting line up - who showed real weaknesses in performances are not mentioned.

There are only sicx rookies that made the starting line-up more than once and those are Etzebeth, Coetzee; Goosen, Vermeulen, Strauss and Taute.   Of those only Taute under-performed - there were no problems with the other five.   Matter of facr Etzebeth was probably our best forward this year. 

You conveniently left out that Vermeulen and Strauss were also rookies - in fact playing their first tests this year.   I rate them as above-average,

Rookie Summary

Result -  out of 6 :   1 excellent,  4 above average, 1 under-performer

Excellent ; 1    (16,67%)

Above Average  :  4  (66,67%)

Under-performer  :  1  (16,67%)

Experienced Players

When we look at the experienced playes we had the following:-

Poor (Under-performers) :   Morne Steyn, De Jongh and  Hougaard, C J vand der Linde. Stenkamp 

Average : De Villiers (at 13), Francois Steyn, Kirchner, Kruger, Jannie Du Plessis, Beast,

Above average  :  Bismarck, Bekker, Louw and Alberts,

Excellent Performances :  Habana and Pietersen 

Experienced player Summary

Result out of 15 Players - 2 excellent,  4 above average,  6 average,  5 underperformers

Percentage wise the result is as following:-

Excellent -  2 players  (11,6%)

Above Average - 4 players (23.2%)

Average     -       6 players (34,8%)

Under-performers -  5 players (30,4%)

SUMMARY

The above summaty indicates that 11 of the experienced players actually are rated average and poor (65,2%)  and only 34,6% showed above average abilities.

In the case  of the rookies more than 83,34% performed above average - whilst there was only one poor player (16,67%).

In essence I stay with my original assessment - the bad eggs are percentage wise more evident in the experienced starting line-up players than amongst the so-called rookies.   At least some of the average and poor players may show some improvement in 2013 - but one thing is evident the experienced players (even the average ones) needs to get their act together and get some improvements to their performances.     

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 31, 2012, 18:10:37

Moffie its the usual crap from you much of what you have written is a bunch of lies and more importantly one would swear given Meyer's pathetic record of 57%, that he was an authority on the choices he made this year.

The fact that he selected or dropped any players counts for stuff all given he got it wrong so often. Fact is he, like you called for the washed up old farts to be selected and we wonder why we came up short at 57%.

Mvovo never nearly lost us anything and remains part of the squad, the only reason he never played is because our wonderful coach decided to waste Hougaard on the wing. Check Mvovo's stats for the S15 and thats why he should always be in the equation.

Taute looking terrible against Ireland is a complete lie - Meyer said it was Taute's best test for the Boks to date - he was not dropped, de Jongh was always going to play against Scotland according to Meyer and then good old Meyer got it wrong retaining de Jongh against England where he was sorely exposed. Your Taute take is a complete and utter LIE.

Jantjies was solid against NZ and the reports said as much, so bullshit he was never dropped, he was never given the chance to start and remained on the bench against England.

Goosen was by far our best 10 this year, if missing the odd kick for goal has you concluding that nerves got the better of him then what the hell was Morne doing all season - what complete bullshit. He got replaced because he was injured, it had stuff all to do with nerves - again complete bullshit on your part.

Hougaard's move to 9 by Meyer accounts for why he has a 57% record - pathetic move and shows how out of touch he is with man management. Pienaar replaced him and provided nothing new bar valuable possession being kicked away - another Meyer cock up

I never called for Greyling you dunce - I called for Kitshoff or Marcel v/d Merwe - try wake up

Coetzee was a shining light only to fall foul to another Meyer blunder - here we had a loosie who did more than just bash it up. As for de Jongh bouncing him - yet another lie, Coetzee was never near enough to get a good grip on de Jongh, de Jongh handed Daniel off - so yet another LIE.

Ah so Daniel playing out of position at 8 suddenly has him down as a failure, not the fact that the stupid coach had a 100kg player playing 8 - good one Moffie - again another cock up by Meyer.

As for JJ he had all of 15min on the wing receiving no ball but according to you he was clueless - now what do you base that on - I'll help you, that's just another Moffie LIE - you see the pattern here Moffie - LYING is your forte, one would swear making it up somehow carries bunch, it just exposes you for the fool you are.

Pat Cilliers is useless, next you will be telling the world I called for his inclusion - much like J.Potgieter - good one Moffie, try get it right from the start.

Bottom line is, Meyer got it completely wrong, evidenced in that pathetic 57% record. And only a stupid clown like yourself would conclude he got it right by investing in washed up hasbeens or neverbeens like Kirchner, Jean, de Jongh, Morne, Pienaar, Steenkamp, Liebenberg, CJ, Wian du Preeze, Cilliers and J Kruger.

What he should have done was invest in our rookies, those very rookies who landed 3 of our S15 sides in the top 5. He had all the material to work with but was too stupid to invest accordingly - instead we had him calling on all the old farts based in Europe - talk about out of touch and finger off the pulse - something you are very familiar with - no wonder you are such a fan of Meyer.

Moffie I did not know your standards were that low - 57% good enough for you then?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 31, 2012, 20:25:56

Saffex

Mozart was cherrypicking here.    The only rookies that shouldbe considered are those in thestarting libe up in tests and played two or more tests as starters.   He also ignoted two rookies who did very well, namely Strauss and Vermeulen.

I would not even look at the bench players - most of whom gort less than 20 minutes playing time - so why make a song and dance about them    Meyer should have looked beyond the Bulls team nefore he picked them/ 

As to Taute I looked at the stats to see how he did at center - based on his stats he was below par in the Pretoia test, poor in the Soweto test and - and as Meyer said, he was satisfactory in the Irish test *it was in fact his best performance as a test center,

I musr add that I said before that none of the centers covered themselves in glory - I think they were average to poor.   Even if Taute was the best 13 - the rest was so bad - it really counts for very little .


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
December 31, 2012, 20:34:13

Mike catch a bloody wake up, rugby is not about fucking stats. Taute was excellent against Oz and Ireland and was average against NZ - FACT

And that is based on watching the bloody games not relying on pathetic stats that provide no context at all.

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10233
RE: Year of the Rookie
January 01, 2013, 11:58:01

Saffex

Lets agree to disagree on Taute.  I have seen nothing in Taute's performance against the Australians in the Pretoria that even by any stretch of imagination can be called excellent.   I would agree with Sharkbok - he actually had a below-par game.

In the Soweto test Taute put up an unsatisfactory performance.   His best test was against the Irish - where he showed enough to justigy an average rating.

I agre substantially with you on the stats issue - the only value of stats can really be accepted as of value is over a longish period - defoinitely not on a one match performance basis.   Over a nearly 3 yeqar period Taute had extra-ordinary performance records as a full back - in the 6 matches he played at center he showed very little of real substance.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7557
RE: Year of the Rookie
January 01, 2013, 13:22:41

No its not a case of agreeing to disagree for its complete and utter bullshit that Taute had a below par game against Oz...............he was damn good against Oz and thats a fact anyone who concludes he was below par knows stuff all about rugby and has clearly not watched the game!


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