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3230 Topic: Player Performances 2012
clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12596
Player Performances 2012
December 12, 2012, 05:31:23

Whuilst there is no international rugby at present and very little to discuss on Super 15 or CC level - I think it give us ample opportunity to evaluate the Springbok player performances in 3012 and see what careerwise  could be expected from them in 2013.    In dealing with the issue one has to take into account performances on Springbok, Suoer Series and CC level - as well as age where that aspect could impact on their future selection.   In the ginal [removed]ysis one also have to look at potenial candidates who threaten their future selectability.

 

FULL BACK

Kirchner

Kirchner was virtually the only player that can be assessed insofar as Springbok performances is concerned and there was no real differences between his performances as a Springbok and as a Super Series player are concerned.    The best way to describe Kircher;s performances objectively in 2012 would be as solid.   He was in general good in following up strategic kicks.   His joining of backline attacking moves was average to poor - eg the fluffed pass in the Dunedin test to Habana in the Dunedin test.   In general he tended to crashball ineffectively in joining the backline  since his passing game  in general was deficient.    Generally solid in defence - but in that respect occassionally out of position - eg the Dagg try in Dunedin.   His positional play in receiving kicks was good and his carching of high balls under pressure was acceptable.

Assessment      -      6/10

Did not really damage his career through deficient performances - but at 29 his age could become a factor - especially after 2013.    Would still be in 2013 - but cannot be said to be a certainty in selection.

Lambie

Did not play at full back for the Springboks long enough to justify during any tests an assessment for performances on that level.   On Super Series level he played at full back in about half of the Super Series matches  - mainly because of injury.  During he times he did play at full back in the Super Series level - he was solid in all aspects of the game.   Has good ball sense.   

 Assessment      -      6/10

Lambie played in three tests at flyhalf and does not intend to play at full back in future.    He can be a back-up full back - but that is also unlikely in the broader scheme of things.  A young player with massive potential - but more likely at flyhalf than at full back.

Potential full backs

Aplon

Came on for a short while as full back for the Springboks - but was very average.   Joe Pietersen was the Stormers first choice full back.   Already 29 years of age and unlikelyto be a real choice as future Springbok selection.      5/10

Taute 

He played ar full back for the LIons in 2011 and performed extremely well in that position - but in 2012 was moved to 13 by that team.   He played for the Springboks in 3 tests and his performance in those tests was average in attacking play and below par in defence (eg the Soweto test).   He clearly stated that he in future will concentrate in playing at full back and will playin that position for the Stormers in 2013.   Excellent potential full back - likely to be the main contender for the full back position in 2013 and subsequently.       6/10

Lu[removed]    

Did not play any tests and was at full back for about half the Super Series games - also play at wing for the Sharks.   Was the standout SA full back on Super Series level and showed very good defensive and attacking abilitities        5.5/10.

Francois Steyn

Started off his senior career at full back - but then moved to 12.    He played in half the tests this year at 12 - but his performances in that position was very average and he will have to show much more if he wants to remain at 12 in 2013.    If he continues in present vein as a center - he may move back to full back.    5/10

Summary

The likely candidates for 2013 to play at full back for the Springboks are Kirchner, Taute and Lu[removed]    No real problems in that position.   Based on potential I would say Taute is the top choice.

 

WINGS

Pietersen

Pietersen played at wing for the Springboks and a few games at 13 for the Sharks.   H is and remains one of the top wings in World Rugby.   At center he was clearly not playing well at all - his performances for the Sharks can at best be decribed as average.   He can realistically only be played at wing,         8/10

Habana 

One of the top wings in World Rugby and the SA Player of the Year in 2012.   Although he is already 29 years of age - he is showing no signs of decreasing ability.                                                                  8/10

Back Up Players

But for Mvovo  - who had some disappointing playing time for the Springboks - the other players to be considered on Super Series and CC level are Rhule. Basson and Van den Heever.

 

CENTERS

Much has already been written about this major problem in Springbok selection and I am not going to repeat what was already raised previously,   

De Villiers   

At 12 he is asssed as 6/10 - at 13 not really good enough at 5/10

Francois Steyn

Played in the number 12 jersey in half the tests and can at best be assessed as 5.5/10.

Taute

Performed average at center - 5/10 - and wants to play at full back in future.   Not a future candidate as a center and is unlikely to play in that position in future.

De Jongh

At 13 he can at best be assessed as 4/10 - 3/10 in tests and 5/10 on other levels.

Future Candidates

Jordaan 

Showed class on both Super Series and CC level and is by far the best potential candidate.   Is very young and showed exceptional ability already  -   6/10

Other candidates

De Allende, Serfontein, Howard, Small-Smith and Howard.   They are all still very young and the only one really showing class on CC - level was De Allende.   The other candidates played only in the Junior WC and the age group competitions or as bench players on CC level.

There is indeed hope that the younger candidates will ultimately end the present  "dead backline syndrome" the Springbok team is suffering from.

 

FLYHALFS

Much has been written about this position as well - so I will basically jsut give an assessment of the candidates based on performances on test and Super Series level:-

Goosen             -    7/10

Lambie              -   7/10

Morne Steyn     -    5/10

Jantjies             -    5/10     (3.5/10 on test level and 6.5/10 on other levels)

Future selection

Goosen and Lambie are at present the only two real candidates for future selection

 

SCRUMMIES

This issue was also discussed repeatedly in the past and only an assessment is fiven for performances on test level:-

Pienaar             -     6/10

Hougaard         -     4/10

Future selection

Pienaar remains the top candidate - but at 29 is also on the elderly side.   Hougaard intends to upgrade his game in 2013 and remans a top candidate if he can overcome some deficiencies that became evident in 2012.  Of the other candidates Reinach and Groom could come into the picture in 2013 and later.

 

FORWARDS

The Springbok forwards in the main select themselves and there are very few changes expected.   Players like Bismarck Du Plessis, Burger and Spies would be back from injury and could be in the frame for test selection next year.    Du Plessis is an automatic choice - whilst the others would have to show real class to be in contention.

Daniel proved that he really is top class on Super 15 level - but average when he had limited playing time for the Springboks.   Probably too light in weight to be competitive.

Oosthuizen   had major injury problems in 2012 - but hopefully would recover and ba abe to continue with his career in future.   If so he would become a major contender for selection. 

New Candidates 

The younge candidates are indeed promising and the following need special mention - based on both Super 13 level, on CC level and in the Junior WC:-

Arno Botha     -      6/10

Elstadt            -      6/10

Kolisi              -      5.5/10

Du Toit           -       6.5/10

Malherbe        -       6/10

Kitshoff            -      6/10

Hopefully there would not be a repeat of the nonsencical selections like Greyling, Werner Kruger, Van der Linde, Steenkamp and  H van der Merwe in future.

PLEASE LET US HAVE COMMENTS ON THE ABOVE ISSUES.   

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3603
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 12, 2012, 06:13:55

 some good ratings, although I disagree about Frans Steyn. In the 1st two English tests he was good, also in the Dunedin test. I reckon if he has a good flyhalf that is in form, and the gets over his ankle issues we shall see Frans as the top inside center in the world or one of the best. He is a good passer, he can offload in the tackle, strong runner, tackler etc. I do admit although he is a good passer, he rarely uses this skill. However his new flyhalfs are still kids getting experience and 2013 they will come of age with the out of form Morne gone.

Really optimistic about Frans with his combination with Lambie at the Sharks and Goosen and Lambie a bok level. Watch this space, I reckon the backs are going to fire next year in comparison to 2012

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12596
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 12, 2012, 06:57:21

Sharkbok

I always was a big admirer of Francois Steyn and thought he would be the answer at 12.   I was disppointed in his performances in two of the POMS tests, In the Mendoza test and in the away test against the Wallabies.   His good performances was in the Dunedin test - after Morne Steyn was replaced - in the second test against the POMS and in the Cape Town test.

I thought the big disappointment  in all the tests he played in was Morne Steyn - he got progressively worse in each test he played in.   However, there can be no argument - Morne's poor performances as a backline pivot in 2012 must have had a serious detrimental impact on the whole backline performance and could have had an impact on Francois Steyn - as stated by you.   It could also have had an impact on the performance of De Villiers when he played at 13.    When the latter played at 12 he performed better with Goosen and Lambie at flyhalf - but was also poor in the Soweto test after Jantjies came on.

Francois Steyn has had a very average record because of two basic deficiencies - namely his inability to break the line and his serious problem in drawing in defenders (ie creating space for other players to continue with attacks) and  off-loading of the ball effectively in tackle situations.   He basically crashballed 80% of the time he got the ball without ensuring quiick ball recovery.   Maybe that was the result of Morne Steyn standing so deep in the pocket and him receiving the ball so far behind the advantage line. .

I feel that Francois Steyn was not in prime physical condition when he returned to SA.   He seemed to carry too much fat and was slower than we were accustomed to.   However, a strict training and dietary regimen could take care of those two issues.

I really hope he makes the grade in Super 15 in 2013    I said previously that all players should be assessed on their performances in Super 15 and the same applies to Francois Steyn.     In that respect the Sharks had a very good attacking backline in 2012 and if things go wrong in that regard in 2013,  the finger would primarily be pointed at Steyn at 12,

Be it as it may - I hope that Francois Steyn comes through and proves my assessment wrong.

  

 

    

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 12, 2012, 12:19:40

Mike there are an abundance of players of international quality.

Forwards
Beast, Guthro, Kitshoff, SJ van Rensburg.
Bissie, Strauss, Liebenberg
Jannie, Malherbe, Coenie, Marcell
Etzebeth, Bekker, Flip, Kruger, Elstadt. Quinn Roux, Du Toit, Bresler
Louw, Duane, Alberts, Burger, Brussouw, Kan kan, Botha Deon Fourie, Elstadt
Backs
Hougaard, Pienaar, Reinach, Groom (Kolbe is one to watch?) Van Zyl Vermark and Sarel
Lambie, Goosen (Use sparingly) Jantjes (Super 15 - will see how he goes) and the unflappable Demetri Katrikillis (Underrated methinks)
Habana, JP, Rhule, Mvovo, Van Der Heever, Mapoe, JJ, Jordaan. (How about that big sevens wing?)
Jean, Steyn, Jordaan, Allende, Du Plessis, De Jongh (Jan Serfontein is still under 20 leave him be) Howard.
Taute, Kirchner, Joe.
Some ofthese guys are younsters and the Super 15 shoul dgive u san indication as to their readiness. Some emay only be ready in 2014 etc.
If all were fit and well my team would be something like this:
Coenie, Bissie, Jannie (Coenie is the best loosehead we have if fit)
Etzebeth, Bekker, (Problem is to keep Bekker injury free)
Louw, Vermuelen and Schalk (Capt) (7) (not a show pony in sight)
Reinach, Lambie, Steyn, Jordaan (Banking on sharks duo Reinach and Lambie making a great halfback pair – otherwise Hougard. Ditto Steyn and Jordaan)
Habana, JP and Taute.
Reserves: Beast, Strauss Malherbe, Elstadt/Alberts, Hougaard, Goosen & Jean/Allende
This is a great deal better than what was available to Meyer in 2013.


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 12, 2012, 15:38:18

Hey Beeno.

Just on a note of interest. You say you believe Coenie is the best loosehead we have when fit, Have you also noticed that he is the worst scrumming loosehead we have when either fit or unfit..

Coenie does not bind  his outside hand to the opposition player or either binds it too late, He is plenty strong enough but has a nasty habit and it has been going on for a while now. Becuse of this he either bninds late or weak or anything along those lines and then he eirhter drops to his knees as he is not binded well enough or he slips out or plainly just get blown up.

This is one of the main reasons I believe that both Naka and Heyneke wants to move him to tighthead.

If he does move to tighthead he will not have to rely on the outside arm too keep his bind stable as he has 2 oponents shoulders to use. and he can therefore bind slightly later.

Just a thought. He is a monster in the loose, but there are some really bad habits in his scrumming which don't seem to disapear. Thus I am with Naka and Meyer on this one, move him to tighthead and eliminate the problem, while still having him on the field. Tighhead won't be an issue as he is plenty strong enough.

 

Just a though, use it, don't use it.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8382
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 12, 2012, 16:02:49

A few comments:

 

1) Kirchner is a hopeless open field tackler Mike.....he is in the Pierre Spies school of Zombie tacklers.

 

2) Frans Steyn is not new to 12. We should judge him as a mature inside centre, having started there for the Boks in the RWC07. In that sense he was extremely disappointing this year. His problem is upstairs where he gets locked into a course of action and doesn't adjust. Hence the charge downs. All those long, unsuccesful, kicks at goal, also cost us hugely in terms of territory.

 

3) We have no depth at scrummie. Pienaar is quite capable of losing confidence.....there aren't any other international class scrummies around. Ditto at tighthead.

 

4) Juandre Kruger is not the answer, but way better than his critics would say. The laugh here is giving Steph du Toit a 6 based in part on his callow performances for the Sharks. He may have pedigree and potential, but he has to prove it on the field of play.

 

5) Vermeulen and Kankowski strike me as an ideal set of 8th men. Vermeulen providing a huge work rate and Kankan the explosiveness we could use in the last 20 minutes.

 

6) Coenie is likely done. Test scrumming is brutal, and I have never rated Coenie technically......but to expect him to succeed in this jungle with a compromised neck, the very part that takes all the strain, is naive.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12596
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 12, 2012, 16:43:07

Mozart

I am not argueing with you on the issue of Kirchner - he has his deficiencies and I would rather want to see either Taute or Lu[removed] as full backs.   As to Francois Steyn - I have doubts as well, despite all the haloo's people give him.   Would want to see what he produces in Super 15 in 2013.

Insofar as the forwards are concerned - I did not mention all the potential players that could come through.   Only some of the younger players that have played Super 15 already and worth watching next year in that competition.  There are others also worth watching.   I personally do not rate Kruger as an automatic Springbok selection and thinks their are better candidates.

I know you do not rate Steph Du Toit - but I think he is the next Etzebeth.   Just wait and see what happens next year - you may yet have to change your mind.  

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8382
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 12, 2012, 17:25:01

Mike the benefit  of judging things on the field of play, is you can change your mind. I'm not trying to be like the Sapp, who predicts 10 superstars, and is lucky if he gets one. These guys have to prove they belong and keep on proving it....being objective makes things easy.


Apollo

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 29
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 13, 2012, 12:18:23

Quote from ou Maaik: "I always was a big admirer of Francois Steyn and thought he would be the answer at 12.   I was disppointed in his performances in two of the POMS tests, In the Mendoza test and in the away test against the Wallabies.   His good performances was in the Dunedin test - after Morne Steyn was replaced - in the second test against the POMS and in the Cape Town test."

 

Jirre ou Maaik, maar jy kan kak praat... So, his two good performances was in Johannesburg and Cape Town, when Morne played.... And in the Dunedin test after Morne was replaced at 8 all... But you say his good performance was AFTER Morne was replaced? Was that in the 20 minutes, the All Blacks scored 13 points and the Boks scored 3?

 

And then you come to the conclusion that Morne Steyn is ACTUALLY the culprit that must be blamed for his performances...

 

Logic is defnitely not your strong point! <--(And this is a VALID conclusion, you see the difference!)

 

Regards,

 

Apollo


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11707
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 13, 2012, 12:55:02

Mike I have to agree with your basic argument that  Steyn was not at  his best this year. He was overweight and he also got married.

He needs to do the hard conditioning work and he will be a great asset to the Boks.

I look forward to seeing his partnership with Jordaan developing. The Sharks have a prertty potent backline in the making:

Reinach, Lambie, Steyn, Jordaan, Movovo, JP and Ludik. Not bad at all.


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 13, 2012, 13:47:19

again, Apollo, you are wasting your time mate. this is not the first time that ou Maaikie has come up with his crap argument about Morne and the Dunedin test and it is not the first time that he has been flooded by the facts either. He will probably wait and see if it won't go away and then wait a month or so before using it again.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12596
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 13, 2012, 15:44:30

Apollo

Morne was brilliant throughout the year - is that what you think?   Why was he replaced in Dunedin after only five kicks at goal - one of which was converted?    Why is he only used for ten minutes in the irish test?   What is wrong with the Springbok managment that they don't appreciate the value of Morne?

Just for your information that later in the test of Dunedin - after Goosen came on - Grancois Steyn made two significant line breaks - whilst Morne was standing 10 meters behind the gain line - nobody could achieve anything like that.

Wherher you like it or not Morne Steyn was a problem in tests this year and it cost us dearly in more than one match.   


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 13, 2012, 18:05:53

Before Goosen came on in Dunedin, we were in the game, despite Morne's poor kicking. After Goosen came on, we lost the game......................


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12596
RE: Player Performances 2012
December 13, 2012, 22:09:51

Bongani

I accepted your version of when Goosen replaced Steyn and apologized about that before - so why keep on repeating the issue?

By your comments I accept that you believe Goosen lost the match for the Boks - is that a fact?   


oimatey

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1210
RE: Player Performances 2012
June 11, 2013, 21:53:22

Uh oh. "The likely candidates for 2013 to play at full back for the Springboks are Kirchner, Taute and Lu[removed] "

 

 Gotta get back to work now  and quit pot stirring !

 

One thing I did notice was how many stinking posts over that time period revolved around player weights and heights, haha.

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8382
RE: Player Performances 2012
June 11, 2013, 21:58:33
"Based on potential I'd say Taute is the top choice"......and Lambie listed among the potential fullbacks although today the OOM denies he ever suggested Lambie as a fullback. You'd better stop this Matey, the tally of Ou Maaik lies is mounting by the minute.

Have I proven my point, can we move on?


Rooinek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1575
RE: Player Performances 2012
June 11, 2013, 22:08:09

"One thing I did notice was how many stinking posts over that time period revolved around player weights and heights, haha."

 

Oimatey, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that for every one thread you find regarding player weights and heights between September 2012 and March 2013, I'll be able to produce at least two threads about posters weights and heights!


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