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3173 Topic: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
mozart

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Posts: 7867
Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 01, 2012, 21:06:59

The Bok tour looks just a little better this week.....having now seen all our FN rivals crumble up north. The physicality of our back row last week, and our iron defence.....was underestimated by many. C'mon Heineke appoint an attacking coach and this Bok team needs to step back for nobody.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11977
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 07:13:55

Mozart

 

I wish it is as easy as you make it out to be.   I think there are a variety of problems to be sorted our before we  are insofar as backline play is concerned on a better wicket than we are at present:-

 

Assistant Coaches and Technical Support

It is not only the attack coach that is missing - we also need a proper backline coach - one of the best we cn find in the world.   The present ignoramus we have will get us nowhere.

We alsoneed specialist advisors for specific positions that can deal with certain deficiencies that is at present hampering backline play.   These include specifically -

   *    the upgrading of players like  Hougaard to an acceptable level of performance;

  *     passing of balls - but more specifically effective off-loading of balls in tackle situations.

The full back situation

Kirchner is a good full back - but he is not effective as an attacking full back.   We may have to change the full back and replace him with a better attacking full back.   Options are Taute - he was excellent when he played for the Lions in that position,  Francois Steyn and even Ludick.   

The Center Issue

You wrote extensively about the fact that  Jean De Villiers was this year the best center utilized by the Springboks.   However, seen in a broader perspective De Villiers would never even be considered as an acceptable center by any of the other top nations.   His performances are at best average - and from an attacking play perspective even poor.   However, it must also be borne in mind that De Villiers at best is a short term prospect.

Insofar as our centers thus far utilized by Meyer is concerned - I would say the ratings are as follows:=

De Villiers     -     5/10

Steyn                  4/10

Olivier                3/10

Taute        -        3/10

De Jongh          2/10

If we want ro see an inprovement in center performances - Meyer should refrain from picking of players out of position (eg Taute at center)   and also and stop selecting players that showed zilch in Super 15 like De Jongh.

Meyer would be well-advised to study the performances of potential candidates in Super 15 next year - and come up  with the four best available centers

 

 

 


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 10:43:01

Ou Maaikie, how about addressing some of the issues that were beyond the coach/coaching staff's control?


JeromeV

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 213
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 11:09:45

It was a comprehensive performance on defence overall on the tour, although not much to interpret on attack due to poor definciencies in the backline. Regarding the assistant backline coach i don't exactly blame them on the issue, im sure they have a good idea as to how the gameplan should be executed in certain areas in attack. Its the players itself to perform well, they don't have the mentality to do these set pieces well. For this backline to improve on attack they're gonna have to change the centre combination, JP should be shifted to inside centre or outside permanently. Meyer shouldn't comfirm that JDV should remain no12 next year unless he shows great form in super 15 which is highly unlikely at these circumstances.

As for the fullback situation is concerned, if meyer wants to replace Kirchner for a more attacking mindset fullback it should be Aplon and that would be common sense. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11977
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 11:51:37

Bongani

I was talking about the appointment of Assistant coaches and tachnical advisors - I think that is something that he does not have control over - and furthermore the full back and center situation.   There were no real problems insofar as the full back selection is concerned and Meyer presumably had a free hand to select one.

In the center position Francois Steyn got injured - I grant you that - but the whole issue is that the centers shouldbe selected with due regard to sustained performances in Super 15 next year - and not to get stuck on players that we had this year - but never really produced the goods.

Anything wrong with that???. 


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 12:47:16

Eish ou Maaikie. Let me help you a bit.

 

"The full back situation

Kirchner is a good full back - but he is not effective as an attacking full back.   We may have to change the full back and replace him with a better attacking full back.   Options are Taute - he was excellent when he played for the Lions in that position,  Francois Steyn and even Ludick."

 

It is easy to look at the players in isolation, but you also have to bear in mind the entire context. First of all we have the luxury of sitting in our couches speculating, in or massive expert opions, about who could have been used in which positions. Taute was injured for some time IIRC, and he is an untested youngster who has not been a fulltime fullback. Say what we like, there is one thing that HM has not done, and that was mucking around by playing players "out of position" like we have seen previously. The only one really was JDV, anb he was more or less forced to do that. He was his choice for the captaincy and he obviously had Frans Steyn as his first choice for 12. The only other ones were Habana from left to right wing. The Hougaard one has been under discussion for two years or more and there are as many people seeing him as a wing as there are that see him at 9.

"The Center Issue

You wrote extensively about the fact that  Jean De Villiers was this year the best center utilized by the Springboks.   However, seen in a broader perspective De Villiers would never even be considered as an acceptable center by any of the other top nations."

 

I fully agree that we have an issue at center but when you look at the ratings that you yourself has allocated for the centers, and bearing in mind that those are amongst the best that was available, don't you agree that the center is more an issue with SA rugby in general?

 

 


clevermike

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Posts: 11977
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 14:50:51

Bongani

I think the full back issue is only my personal opinion.   I think Kirchner is on the older side and will probably not  make the 2015 WC.   We should actually look for a better attacking full back joining the line to create overlaps and space.  In London Kirchner tried that repeatedly - but it did not work - because De Jongh was out of position constantly.  I am perhaps laying the blame on the wrong shoulders here - but then I also believe there will be players at full back competing with Kirchner (who no doubt should also be considered)  that could come to the Super Series next year.   

The center issue remains a major problem that refuses to go away.   At the star of the tests this year everybody - me included wasshouting hurrah because Steyn came back and was available for selection,   However, *I was disappointed with what  he actually produced.   De Villiers is the oldest player in the team and unlikely to last much longer.   There is no way that we really have run out of center optoions and I feel that hopefuully the Super 15 nrxt year will provide the way forward.   

I whole-heasrtedly agree with you about  "the center is more an issue with SA rugby in general"


mozart

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Posts: 7867
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 15:56:39

I agree centre is an issue with South African rugby. But then I also think Jean de Villiers is superior to any of the NZ centres and any of the Aussie centres. Nonu is a strong man, but not a subtle link....and his tackling in space is not the best. Conrad Smith is damn ordinary physically, in a South Africam backline he'd disappear. He certainly doesn't have Jean's ability to ride the tackle. He is a clever player feeding off NZ's ability to create opportunities, without that I don't think he'd be much.

 

As for Aussie.Ashley Cooper and Tapuia are pretty ordinary, and Jean shredded the injured McCabe at the RWC.

 

Mostly what we are missing at centre is combination and tactics.....even when Fury was playing, our centres didn't support each other well.


SS-Mole

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 59
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 16:28:28

. Nonu is better than Jean- better at passing and creating space for those outside him


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11977
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 02, 2012, 17:25:35

Mozart

With due respect I differ from you on the Jean De Villiers issue - he used to be a super player - but what  has he shown this year to justify your very high opinion of him.  I think he lost something in his career - and that is how to play wih ball sense - he used to have it - but some things have gone out of the window insofar as he is concerned.    Let me explain - I have never this year saw and major backline movement that De Villiers played a major role in - bar that movement that ultimately result in De Jongh buggering u a real try-scoring opportunity.

De Villiers and De Jongh was the center combination for the Stormers this year - they suffered from a "dead" backline because of their center combination.

I cannot agree with you about the NewZealand and Aussie centers - they constantly outplayed our centers this year.   Maybe he should learn how to off-load balls effectively in tackle situations to start with.  De Villiers can learn that art from the centers mentioned by you - to start with.

I have nothing against De Villiers.   He should  to my mind  - like all other centers - show in Super 15 that he deserves further selection   We have had enough dunces that was selected by Meyer without regard to performance.   They should earn and deserve selection - not be in the team because of past history or reputation.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 03, 2012, 08:46:23

@mike and moz just to appoint a attacking coach seems a bridge to far for the meyer company. its normal practice over the world for a team to have  dedicated attacking coach but it seems there is some massive short sightedness on behalf of the boks as per normal.

 

if the boks add a new attacking dimension to there game play then they will be unstoppable.

 

we should not overlook the AB performance as they all had a massive stomace virus that they had tao deal with this week but we need to be honest with ourselves and make sure that we are up there with the best in terms of attack.

 

the off the ball running options the speed the width on attack the decision making your name it has been nothing short of diabolical. we need a overseas based attacking coach that understands how a attack is build and can improve the cohesion that the boks have in the back. its not just certain players that is at fault but rather the attacking system on a whole that is the problem.

 

 


Beeno1

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Posts: 11070
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 03, 2012, 09:33:07

Well said Moz but unfortunately the adage re the empty barrels pertains! Hahahahahahahaha

Now ou muncher thinks the appointing of an attack coach is beyond Meyer - much like everything else - as Meyer can do nothing right. By the way mucher the abs threw the kitchen sink at the abs in the final 5 minutes so there was not much wrong with their fitness. They were just badly munched by the English pack and the English backs more than had their number. No excuses please for your ab side!!!!

I wonder how these anti Meyer oaks explain his 70% win ratio - eliminate draws as being neutral..(Seems to me we won 7 lost 3 and drew 2?). We all know as well both the OZ and Ab game could as easily have been won if Morne had his kicking boots on.

Lucid Aplon is now thirty and is slowing up a tad. Taute is the next man to have a shot at 15 - where he will play for the Stormers. Wha tou snapste doesnt realsie is that these days given the number of games played the Boks need 2 competent flyhalves and on the evidence so far Goosen and Lambie are thsoe two. This simple fact eludes him.

Like Mike I am impressed with Allende and will watch his progress with great interest,. Jordaan is also a class act as is Frans Steyn. We also have Jan Serfontein and others coming up. I see no problem at center whatsover.

Our real problem is we need a competent backline/attac coach to get our backline goingetc. I see nothing too much wrong with this backline:

Hougaard, Lambie, Habana, Frans, Jean, JP and Taute. If any of these are notperforming you have Reinach, Jordaan, Allende, Rhule, etc etc. If possible leave Goosen out of it or perhaps at most cameos off the bench or games against weaker sides.

 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5822
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 03, 2012, 10:13:15

Beeno1

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 3970
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 03, 2012, 09:33:07

 

I wonder how these anti Meyer oaks explain his 70% win ratio - eliminate draws as being neutral..(Seems to me we won 7 lost 3 and drew 2?). We all know as well both the OZ and Ab game could as easily have been won if Morne had his kicking boots on.


BAWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:'D


OMG, ben10 at his finest, meyers amazing 70% winning streak, as draws a neutral, (LMFAO BIG TIME!!!!)
i guess theyre not really test matches, they are just figments of everbodys imagination, :D wow, that is freaking hilarious!!!
the Boks 58% winnin ratio looks so much cleaner once its done a full cycle in ben10s washing mahcine calculator, 70% cleaner according to ben10, BAWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

damn u ben10, u just gave me some serious stiches, but i shouldnt mock ur washing machine calculator, infact if u dont mind, i might take steve hansens record and give it a quick wash, is that ok my bru???

 

ok lets see now, i will take steve hansens record and multiply by the circumference of an apple pie and carry the two, now i will insert record into ben10s washing mashine calculatorm and presto, All Blacks 85% record is now 92%, thanks brother benno, u never fail to cheer me up.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11070
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 03, 2012, 11:14:35

saSUE I understand that you are having a nervous breakdown of some magintude but if my figures are right then my calcualton is correct. We have to eliminate draws when doing the calc as they are neutral.

Now if you take of the two games we really should have won re abs and Oz (but for unusaully poor goal kicking) our win ration climbs to 90%. and a rugby Chanpionship title. So sorry saSUE, especially after all your trials, but given some context we can clearly see how well Meyer has done in spite of all the bleatings here and calls fo this head. Try and see the whole picture saSUE!

Lets allow poor saSUE to recove a bit more. Hahahhahahahahahaha. Think before another emotional outburst saSUE.

I hear the shrinks are working overtime in nz. You should have let them know Beeno was expecting this and it wouldnt have been such a shock. Bwahahahahhahaha


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 03, 2012, 11:36:05

@beeno for my AB side ???? mate i will shout for any other SH team when they play a NH team.

 

there was no excuses but if a team had a rampant virus running in the camp as i am sure the poms might have a hand in that pie i am sure. it does make a difference at the end of the day. the english tactics were spot on on the day and they deserve the win. old beeno is as one eyed as they come dear heavens.....since when is a draw in your one trick pony words a neutral ???? WTF is a neutral so by the way ?

 

@beeno you and the rest of the media hores are obesessed with stats and win ratios/rehashing points made by the coach but you dont look at the bigger picture of how are boks are playing and the game pattern going forward. the type of game and method wont bring us the domination we need to be the best. in short its flawed in terms of creating attacking play but your poor inablity to look beyond your durban july horse like blinkers cant envision the greater picture. all the boks supporters wants a progressive way of playing as they know this country will dominate if they get that aspect of there general play sorted out.

 

i have never doubted meyers techincal abilty he can coach but its playing vision and his tought process on how the game should be played that worrys and bugs me to no end. basic rudamental coaching appointments that is common practice seems to elude us.

 

NO OTHER MAJOR RUGBY POWER IN THE WORLD BEENO HAS  ATTACKING COACH THAT IS A FORWARDS COACH. the attacking coach role is singelar in nature and that is taken as his primary role. he has no other roles or responablitys. but them again it does not help me harping on about it as you dont understand that concept nor cant grasp its simple idea and implementation.

 

 

 


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 03, 2012, 13:57:53

Can you name the attacking coaches of the "OTHER MAJOR RUGBY POWERS IN THE WORLD"?


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5822
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 06:46:50

@ben10,

 

all good brother ben10, i know that ur not seriously saying that meyers record is 70%, cos the fact is its not. Boks played 12 test matches in 2012, but they only won 5, nobody can choose and pick which games they want to include in a winning percentage, unless u were educated at the same 2 bit school that PDV went too, :oD
 

yep ur expectations were correct, but if u blindly fire a gun enough times, ur always bounf to hit something and after ur swing and misses with stormers spXV champs, Boks vs eng 3rd test, pumas 2nd test, wallabies 1st test, ABs sowtto test & picking the welsh to win u finnaly hit something with eng. might be time to take that prediction winning ratio of urs through the ben10 washing machine calculator, :ob
 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7867
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 07:02:58

Well the Boks losing percentage is 25%. Not bad really considering the opposition. But the fact is when you have draws in the mix, the winning and losing percentages are depressed. Pick your own number. You can make a case for a winning percentage  of  58%, 67% or 75%.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5822
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 07:34:46

pick ur own number??? o_O

let the facts speak for the case.

Boks played 12 test matches in 2012.

Boks won 7 test matches in 2012.

now by using simple childerens math that we all should have learned at school, we use the formula to work out a percentage.
7 divided by 12 multiplied by 100 = 58%.


after all that numbers witchcraft (:ob), Boks and meyer have a winning percentage of 58% in 2012.

the only way u can get 75% winning record is by pretending that the Boks 3rd test against eng and the 2nd test against the pumas never happened and if u do that, then u lose all ur making fun of PDV privileges.

Boks do have a 25% losing percentage though, cos they lost 3 of their 12 matches, but dont start making up numbers, meyer has only won 58% of his games, FACT!!!


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 08:46:49

a draw is like making out with your sister. a draw is not a win. to draw with the likes of the pumas is and should be considered a loss in my book.

 

@bongani google it buddy do some homework if you want to. scotland has hastings england has mike cat and farrell. the japs has eddie jones that is attack minded the all blacks has the masterfull ian foster that took the chiefs to there first title. wales has howley. the list goes on that is those names are what i am just thinking of out of hand. the common practice to have a attacking coach or a assistent coach that was employed in that role. the wallies has nick scrivener ext ext the lists go on. if one looks at the wallies game play nick is very lucky to have a job in my view

 

we have van graan....WOW. i feel better already please note the sarcasm

 

 

 

 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5822
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 10:26:16

@carpetmuncher,

half right with the All Blacks my bru, ian foster the former coach of the chiefs is the attacking coach, but it was dave rennie and wayne smith who coached the chiefs to their first spXV title.

fosters selection was of big concern to most AB supporters, cos of his failures with the chiefs who have always had a decent team, but like i told my kiwi bros, playing with the chiefs and playing with the All blacks, NZs creme of the crop are two different things completely.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 10:44:20

ian foster from what i heard is a tough task master but he knows his stuff. one can just look at the chiefs game patten under his coaching and see how they have evolved. the chiefs was inconsitent and was there and there abouts but in one season ian has taken them to the next level or rugby performance. ian is the man in charge of the AB attack and looking at the stats its shows ian has the right stuff.

 

while you guys have ian we have die mickey mouse van graan. feels like renting a kia picanto while your best mate has a audi . i dont for one moment think van graan can even compete on the same level as ian foster sorry to say. as a bok supporter that for me is a bitter pil to swallow


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5822
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 11:06:50

it might sound a bit obvious and im sure theres areason why it wouldnt work, but what about the attacking coach of the cheetahs, plus the defensive coach of the stormers??? IMO cheetahs were SA best attacking team and stormers defnesive prowess speakes for themselves>

under meyer that could be a lethal coachin combination, but meyer needs to get his no bulls phobia.

 

van graan is kak, but meyer is ultimatley responsible, cos he wants the team to play that way.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11070
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 11:37:29

saSUE we won 7, drew 2 and lost 3. It could be argued that  a draw is neutral - it is neither  a win nor a loss. So exclude it from the universe. We therefore won 7 out of 10 where there was a result and lost 3 out of ten.

 i.e our win to loss ratio is 70% and our loss to win percentage is 30%   Who can deny this!

I am glad you now realise Boks won 7 tests and not 5 saSUE that is helpfuland represents progress. Hahahhahahahahahaha

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11070
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 11:40:15

Muncher said " NO OTHER MAJOR RUGBY POWER IN THE WORLD BEENO HAS  ATTACKING COACH THAT IS A FORWARDS COACH. the attacking coach role is singelar in nature and that is taken as his primary role. he has no other roles or responablitys. but them again it does not help me harping on about it as you dont understand that concept nor cant grasp its simple idea and implementation".

 Beeno has said on numerous occassions we need to improve our attack, we need an attack coach, we need a backline coach. Loubscher looks like a quota appointemetn etc etc etc etc.

munche read what I say before making ludicrous statements. Bwahahahahaha ou muncher has reading problems!!!


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5822
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 13:01:56

Beeno1

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 3986
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 11:37:29

 i.e our win to loss ratio is 70% and our loss to win percentage is 30%   Who can deny this!



OMG ben10, u are so insanely biased its made u crazy stupid. just because u suffered a draw it dosent mean the game is neutral just cos u said so, jeebers!!! o_O


simple dacts are beyond u and anyone who thinks the same, but the numbers are irrefutable, no matter how many spin cycles u put meyers winning percentage through.

Boks played 12 games.

Boks won 7 of the 12 games.

winning percentage 58%.

the only thing worse the meyers coaching is the south african math education, i am now starting to understanf PDV a lot more, especially as it seems his clown college education is not and isolated case like i fist thought.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7867
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 16:03:12

You seem very hot and bothered. But if the losing percentage is 23% and the winning percentage is 58%....then I guess you would say the Bok's drawing percentage is 19%? Does that make sense?

 

No it clearly doesn't....nor does 58% describe the propensity of the Boks to win in a season with two draws. If you were dealing with league tables....you would give 1 for a win and 1/2 for a draw. Seven wins and two draws would give you 8 points out of a possible 12.....or 67%.

 

As I said, pick your number....as long as that number isn't 58%.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11070
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 04, 2012, 16:32:35

Thanks Moz. Anything but the most obvious eludes ou saSUE!

Case closed.

 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5822
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 10, 2012, 00:42:50

i have clearly overestimated the level of intelligence of some on the percentage topic at hand (obviously im not talking about ben10, cos i keep him around for entertainment value).

but moz i never said a Boks drwaing percentage, cos that is just stupid, i said the Boks winning percentage is 58%. this is not up for debate, its FACT.
but this percentage dosent take into accounts losses & draws, it only takes into account one thing, the games won from the total played.

and FYI, the Boks losing percentage is 25%, they lost a quater of the games they played, again cos it obivously needs to be mentioned, this percentage only takes into account games lost from games played, hope i havent lost u so far boys (again obviously ben 10 got left behind at the first word with more then 5 letters, LMAO)

u made the mistake of thinking that a 58% winning ratio means that it encompases or factors what the losses and draws are, in which case u might as well do a ben10 and just pretend the the two draws never happened, cos they are as he wishfully sugested were netural and dont really count, LMFAO, :oD
in simple terms, the winning percnetage reflects wins only, it does not reflect the draws or losses.

oh look i can say case closed too, guess that means its case closed??? o_O LMFAO AGAIN, :oD
 


nukefreekiwi

Status: Squad member
Posts: 441
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 10, 2012, 07:59:36

 Lol @ sasu for trying to explain SIMPLE arithmetic to the deluded fanboys. Bro, there is no other way to formulate Meyers winning percentage other than the way you described. The bokke played 12 games ( not 10) but only WON (why we call it a winning percentage) 7 games. That gives Meyer s boks a rather ordinary 58% WINNING PERCENTAGE. Whilst bean brain and co' choose to cherrypick and selectively delete the draws as a way to artificially inflate Meyers success ( or lack thereof) , anyone with a basic understanding of arithmetic will recognise beanbrains numerical contortions  for the retarded nonsense they really are. Oh we'll, looks like those UN numeracy figures on SA are dead accurate.  I won't bother repeating them here and risk another desperate attempt by the mathematical quacks to distort the numbers in SA's  favour but I will say their findings have been perfectly illustrated in this thread. 

Mind you, if we use bean brains logic and ignore draws completely then the ABs must have broken the record for consecutive wins.  

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11977
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 10, 2012, 09:35:26

I don't want to get into the argumemt on percentages - but rather on the issue of performances of the Springboks as a team.   Lets face facts and see whether there are positive signs or not in their performances over the past year and see what was produced by the team itself and the Super 15 squads as a basis for the performances to be expected in 2013.

 

Super 15

As to the franchise performances in 2012 a critical analysis of the situation is as follows - especially in those cases where these performances impacted on what happened in the case of the Springbok performances later on in the year:-

*    The Sharks was the best all-round team ofthe SA Franchises.   They started off the season badly by losing critical games early on.- matter of fact they were poor and their losing ratio in those games did not indicate the true strength of the team.  Fundamentally there was a serious flaw  in the team performances and one wonders why what happened to make them a force to reckon with later in the series.   There were in reality no major changes in the team selections - but one notable change was in backline performance and efficiency improved drastically later in the season.   One wonders why that happened and what brought on the improvement in performances.    In the early games Plumtree used Pietersen at 13 - where his performances was average and he was ineffective.   After he was moved back to wing - he was a changed player and back to his normal high standard of performance.    His replacement was Jordaan - who performed twice as well as Pietersen  at 13 and added an attacking value to the backline - which became an effective weapon in the process. 

*    The Stormers performed well in the whole Supr 15 series - but for the fact that they managed to score the fewest tries of all franchises.   Their defence was excellent.    On the whole their backline attacking was really below par and even non-existent.   In analyzing that situation the main problem was a very ineffective center combination.   That deficiency was the main reason for the three losses - the semi-final one being the most critical.

*    The Bulls were not the team they were in the years prior to 2011.   Although there were some downward trends as a result of players who left the scene - the main problem was that two key players started to under-perform and as the season went on the performances of Morne Steyn and Hougaard became progressively worse.     Unlike in his earlier performances as to goal and strategic kicking - Steyn became less of a weapon as the season went on and in the last few games - he combined with an under-performing Hougaard - became really a problem.

*    The Cheetahs were average throughout the  season - but really not a house on fire in any Department of their game.   Their backline performances at times were good.

*    The Lions was bottom of the log and poor.

 

Tests

The  Springboks had on average a questionable performance record - even in games where they won:-

Good Performances  -

  ^    Second test against the POMS;

  *    First Test against the Argentinians

  *    Home test against the Wallabies

  *    Twickenham test against the POMS 

Average Performance

  *     Dunedin test against the All Blacks 

Poor Performances

  *     First and Third tests against the POMS

  *     Test in Mendoza

  *     Away test against the Wallabies

  *    Soweto test against the All Blacks

  *     Ireland

  *     Scotland - even Tonga performed better against them than the Springboks did.

In the average to poor performances categories arre included 3 wins for the Springboks - 3 losses and two draws.

 

What can be expected in 2013   

Looking at the above there were some good signs as to future performances in 2013 - as well as some serious deficiencies noticeable.

On the positive side the Springboks are developing a forward pack that would be more formidable than they were in 2012.    There are still some gaps and the return of injured players can be of massive help in their performances.  

On the negative side is the malady of bad backline performances.    The main problem throughout 2012 was in critical positions - mainly insofar as scrummie, flyhalf, centers and full back is concerned.

Scrummie

Two players were tried with poor results in respect of one and mixerd results in respect of the other.    Hougaard was consistently under-performing and Pienaar played up and down in all tests.  

This is still a critical problem position.    Pienaar is at present the only real option - but Hougaard apparently is going to concentrate only on playing at scrummie in future.   Du Preez may come back into the mix - but that is not entirely sure and if he does - the results would be unpredictable insofar as performances are concerned.  Of the younger scummies Reinach seems to be the best prospect for 2013. 

One can only hope that Hougaard gets his act together and that a scrummie like Reinach start to show up in the Super 15 Series in 2013.   After all neither Du Preez nor Pienaar are really prospects for the 2015 WC.

Flyhalfs

In 2012 most of the tests had Morne Steyn at flyhalf - as the series went on - he became progressively worse - resulting in the final fiasco in Dunedin.   He was not playing any role subsequenrly - bar for 10 minutes in the Irish test.   Goosen replaced him - but after one good test performance - he was injured early in the next test.   Jantjies - who replaced Goosen in the Sowero test - was a rank disaster.   Lambie played well in all three tests he played at flyhalf on the away tour.

In summary - the flyhalf berth can be occupied by Goosen and Lambie and for 2013 that may be a positive sign.

Centers

All the centers utilized in 2012 was average to poor and none showed any attacking flair whatsoever.   De Villiers was the best of the lot - but that does not say much either.   Steyn showed zilch in the games he played at center and Taute wants to play at full back in future.

The starting line up for the intitial tests would in the absence of injuries be Steyn ar 12 and De Villiers at 13.   That would be a repeat of the "dead" center combination of 2012 and I don't think it would really have a positive impact on the attacking play of the backline.   Matter of fact that combination will merely mean that we continue with a mediocre backline for the Springboks.

One can only hope that the 2013 Super Series showed us the way forward to getting some really talented centers to strengthen this critical component of future Springbok teams 

Full Back

Kirchner was very average in 2012 - but the situation can improve in 2013 if Taute shows class in that posirion.  There are other players in contention as well so i don;t think that a solution cannot be found in this case.

SUMMARY

I think that  2013 would be a better year for the Springboks than 2012 was - but the  issue that needs to be addressed is deficient backline play and essentially the issue of center selection.    


moolaa

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 626
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 10, 2012, 11:04:23

 I can't fathom the tripe Beeno & Mozart are dishing up here!

7 wins out of 12 = 58.33% winning percentage as Sasue & Nuke correctly stated. 

Now Beeno, get back to Broederbond Primary School; this time for a Maths lesson! It's obvious you need remedial action pronto.


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 867
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 10, 2012, 11:13:56

Moola, Beeno is a CA, what you see here is a creative way of working with the figures and a prime example why creative accounting is almost always a crime in most countries!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11977
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 10, 2012, 11:43:30

Percentages are bullshit in this case - irrespective of how we try to cool it.    The end result reamins the same, namely -

Wins     -      58%

Draws   -      17%

Losses  -      25%

As far as I am concerned there is nothing to be cocky about draws - it is like kissing your sister - and it canot be regarded as a positive.   It rather shows poor eprformance of the Springboks than anything else - especially with regard to the teams played against.

My rating of the performances as a whole is much better norm to determine progress of the Springbok team in the broader context and that means that the team as a whole cn be given the following ratings:-

Good/average         -     5,5

Poor                         -     4,5

Not at all acceptable   - but there really are posibilities for improvement in 2013.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11070
RE: Undefeated Boks and Meyer loom larger today.
December 10, 2012, 11:49:06

Thanks Draad I am far too modest to have brought it up. It is clear to see we are dealing here with simple rural nz oaks and one that is boadering on mong status!! I dont mention this becuase I know how dorkie and his p[edpan used to get in a froth etc over this. Hahhahahahahaha that was side splitting at times. It also gets rooitwit and snapster going as well with unseemly uncouth comments about yours truly. Sad but true! Its the green eyed monster at play of course.

As for Moz, his doctorate is inthe maths /stats field so any hope of the nz oaks/mong understndung him is very remote.  The nz oaks/mong understand the scoreboard but not much more. Hahahahahahahaha

We will just have to humour and coach them in the hope of a glimmer dawing some day!

Bwahahahahahha


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