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3171 Topic: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3447
Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 01, 2012, 20:14:19

The English and Boks have a similar style of rugby- Big forwards and decent powerful backs. When the English pack is on form they dominate the collisions and control the breakdowns- they are a formidable team- like in the early 2000's and over patches since that time like today.

When New Zealand are blocked at the breakdowns from slowing down possesion, the bigger ball carrying forward packs can beat them. Were it not for the skills of the New Zealand backs they would have scored far less from the limited oppertunities.

Beat New Zealand at the rucks and get strong ball carriers to dominate the collisions and get over the advantage line, and suddenly New Zealands defence has holes all over the place.

The English centres were having a field day. When New Zealand are getting dominated up front and they are on the back foot their defence is not that great. This has happened many times over the years when the boks beat New Zealand. When the pressure is extreme their backline defence falls apart.

The wee New Zealand forward must be beaten in the collisions and clean possesion needs to be maintained at the rucks for quick ball and suddenly New Zealand are very vulnerable. Mccaw was neutralised by the English forwards today who protected their own ball well and cleared out mccaw and co.

Although New Zealand did show how dangerous they are with some excellant quick pace tries. Goes to show with the right mix of loose forwards and tight five the bok can beat them, we just need to protect our own ball and let our bigger and stronger ball carries bash them out of the game, and get our backs into the game after the dam breaks. 

Players like Bismark, Coenie, Schalk burger, Deon Fourie, Flouw are the right type of forwards as they are strong carriers but also excellant at recycling quick possesion from the rucks. 

 


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 504
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 01, 2012, 23:47:51

Congrats to England well deserved win, but funny as when any team beats the AB's bok fans like to claim it as their own. Beaten by a better team on the day, AB's acknowledge this and offer no excuses, unlike the Bok fans who would be crying conspiracy theories and blaming anyone but themselves. Bad day at the office but still number 1 team in the world...it happens.


hakwa

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2308
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 00:00:37

 Congradulations England! You totally deserve the victory!


Arthur John

Status: Squad member
Posts: 597
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 00:58:25

 Well said polyboy.

True but it still hurts.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3447
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 01:48:27

 Very gracious in defeat boys!

I remember 2 years ago when the Wales Defence coach said in the media what the template to beat South Africa was. It really got under my skin, as it did apparently the players.

Thought I would rattle the cage abit! 

Although on a more serious note, I do think the way that England played today was exceptional, and it is also the best way to beat the All Blacks. I do not think the All Blacks played that badly, or that it was a very bad day at the office- rather they played under more pressure than they have been put under the whole year


moolaa

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 626
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 08:14:53

 ABs totally outplayed today by the Poms.

You have no idea how much it hurts me to say that but no excuses!


All Black NZ

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 105
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 09:24:07

Yes I must admit I didn't see that coming was expecting a close game not a thrashing. Well played England that was a totaly deserved victory. 


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 501
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 12:43:00

 The all blacks don't slip often and playin like this next time against them won't guarantee a win. The All Blacks was stuck in an attacking mind set and never allowed themselves time to settle. Huge amount of credit must go to the poms though. What a great game it was worth to watch. They scored one try from broken play, another from a set move and the other from an interception . The all black can be vulnerable when their space is taken away. One thing that stood out for me about the poms is that they actually played with ball in hand and just use simple short passes. What this means is that you have to play with the ball if you want to beat NZ . If the boks can just start to play a bit more with ball in hand I'm sure we can beat NZ next year.


bok2011

Status: Ref
Posts: 8
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 14:17:59

Hey shark bok, when NZ are under pressure the look very average and beatable. England didnt just beat NZ they walloped them and it put a smile on my face and a massive hangover today. But we musnt forget the all blacks had upset tummies LMFAO. They used that excuse once. Doesnt wash this time.


bok2011

Status: Ref
Posts: 8
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 14:21:25

Polyboy this win is englands and englands alone. The reason us saffers are enjoying this mate is because the all blacks were walloped and were shite. Did you see carters face on telly. Looked like his bum had been smacked and was about to cry. WELL DONE ENGLAND FOR THRASHING THE ALL BLEAKS!!!!!!!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12019
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 15:03:00

Polyboy

Don;t get me wrong - I support any SH team playing against NH sides. 

What worries me about the loss of the All Blacks yesterday is the fact that the All Black forwards were not up to requirement.   There has been frequent signs this year that the forwards are not really that awe-inspiring and the signs were clear - one of which is that they give away too many penalties.   The problem appears to be the players try illegal means to get the upper hand and get caught out in the process.   

The concept that forwards must run and handle the balls like centers looks good on paper - but does not work out in tight situations like happened yesterday.    Without the penalty problem the match would have been much more even.   I hope Hansen does something about it.  


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 504
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 15:36:13

Clevermike,  You make an assumption about the AB forwards based on 1 losing game, wouldn't it be more rational to take a look at their season as a whole where they played 13, lost 1 dew 1 won 11 and make an assumption based on that.  I know what your going to say "the signs were there that this was going to happen" but they lost, they were never going to be unbeaten forever, and every now and then the AB's capitulate....like I said bad day at the office. I could make an assumption about the Boks based on their last game against the AB's but that was that game, your only ever as good as your last game.  And I know Bok2011 has been just been waiting for this day , your much more pleasant on the forum than the vitriolic,crap you posted on the "Hansen Hails England" story, but then again some Bok fans are gracious posters some aren't. Would still have preferred to lose to Boks though than England, but then again don't think I could stand to be on the same Cyber planet with supporters like Bok2011.


bok2011

Status: Ref
Posts: 8
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 16:29:27

polyboy, you bring it on yourself mate. you knickers are obviously in a twist over this. i will admit that the boks are nowhere near good enough at the moment and have a long way to go. but hey we are no.2 at the same time as being very mediocre. you guys on the otherhand are no.1 with your best ever side and fair play. when you are no.1 these is only one way after that, and that is down pal and the english shoved you of your pedistal with a good beating. i am the way i am towards you kiwi's somoanst fijians tongans on this forum because i have been harrased with nothing but abuse from you lot since day one. remember pal this is a south african website welcomed by all. you and your pals like  nuke and the gang are ten times more abusive towards us south africans, even being racist at times, so dont come crying to me when i lap up your miss fortune on the multi national all black side pal.


clevermike

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Posts: 12019
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 17:41:36

Polyboy

 

The assumption I made is based on what happened the whole season.   In every game they played in the All Black forwards gave away a large number of penalties and were often enough on the back foot.   Their backline saved them from losses - not their forwards.   It is not for the star backline performances - the AB's would have been in serious trouble - especially against the Springboks where their forwards struggled in both the games played.   The Springboks had a rubbish backline and that gifted the AB/s victory in both tests..

 

 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5823
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 19:40:38

while i agree the All Blacks backs are almost in a class of their own, it would be silly to think that the forwards havent own any parity and held their own, u dont accumulate 12 wins from 14 games in a season cos of ur backs alone.

there needs to be a balance, but the current laws of the games are very pro attacking, so IMO forwards need to be more mobile then traditionally powerful like the teams of yesteryear. but the Boks have always had that mentality of bigger is better, but u need to only look at the Boks record in the pro era and some of the monster forward packs that they have had to know that it really means bugger all.
they more often then not gain parity against oppoistion forwards and they are definately alot more skillful then any other team ive seen. but with the likes of o franks, romano, woodc0ck and hore, theres pretty of grunt to get the job done and if u dont believe me then just ask the Boks.

what happened against england is what happens when england plays well & the All Blacks dont, but how often do the All Blacks not play well and kick well and lose the breakdowns, and fail to compete on every level??? fudge all thats how often, its why they have only lost 1 game in 14 tests in 2012 and IMO thats not going to happen again any time soon.


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 504
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 02, 2012, 23:26:59

Clevermike I think we will beg to differ over this you have your opnion I have mine. There seems to be an assumption that Bok forwards are the template for rugby, big and bulky playing bash football. You seem to think that AB are playing seven a side rugby against 15, by saying its our backline that wins the game. Crap, our forwards still have to win and retain possession in order for the backline to use it. ( I know your going to mention illegalities in here)  It also is disrepectful to say the Springboks gifted the AB the last 2 games, In SA the AB's dismantled the Boks and you mean to tell me that over the last 20 years since your admission that the huge win ratio the AB's enjoy over the Boks has not been because the AB's have been and at the moment are better than the Boks. You know in order to win those games the AB's had to have backs AND forwards earning those wins.

Bok2011  at your invitation its being brought. The fact that you celebrate a English win demonstrates I suppose that your celebrating by proxy but seeing as the AB's have beaten the Boks twice and even spanked your guys in their backyard in front of your home crowd, I'll settle for that cause I can live with 1 loss, 1 draw, 11 win season. By the way what was the Bok record.? And go check out the trophy case before you think of a witty reply. Other kiwi posters  maybe so called racist pricks, but I keep my posts to defending why I support the AB's on this site because the Boks are the traditional foe and respect their rugby but don't paint us all with the same brush. If you have a specific post where I have made racial epitaphs, slurs against any SA fan then please mention it cause I resent being lumped in with racist.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3447
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 00:16:13

 I have seen All Blacks forward packs much more physical than this one.

This current pack reminds me of John Mitchells team around the 2003 time.

The Sean Fitzpatrick pack of Zinzaan Brooke, Michael Jones and that really good lock whos name escapes were far stronger than the current pack. 

The passing ability of the All Blacks inside backs is what is giving them the points. They are able to create space even with limited front foot ball. 

I think England showed that if you beat the All Blacks at the breakdown- especially ensuring that your own possesion is protected and Mccaw and crew are not able to slow down possesion on the ground, then strong ball carriers can dominate the advantage line. Quick recycled ball from multi-phases and the All Black defence opens up gaps.

The passing ability of the AB inside backs and their ability to find and create space is maybe the best I have seen from the All Blacks and the boks and other teams cant keep up with this skill set. 

The way that the All Blacks scored 2 quick tries against England, was the same as in Soweto against SA earlier this year.

No other team in the world can do this.  I have seen some good Australian backlines like Larkham and co, but none scoring with such ease as the current All Blacks. 


clevermike

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 05:47:18

polyboy/Sasu

Ir is clear that we differ on the issue of forward play - I believe in a strong and mobile pack - whilst you place a much higher mark on mobility.   The problem that you apparently ignore is that the mobile pack of the AB's are penalty machines - because they try to overcome their deficiencies by playing borderline rugby.

The sum total is that a team - like the miserable POMS - who lost a series against the Boks and also lost against the Wallabies - beat the All Blacks by dominating up front and by very good defence.    That game will be studied by opposing coaches and will form a basis for utilization of techniques in future games against the All Blacks.  

The game also exposed some real weaknesses starkly.   Pressure on Aaron Smith exposed some weaknesses on his part and confirm the doubts about Conrad Smith's ability to defend.

 

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 09:02:32

to be fair the AB had a lot of off the field issues with a rampant stomach bug ext but the poms went out to attack certain areas like the forwards and the rucks they did it very well and executed very well.

 

that being said if the AB on the day did not have all this issues it might have been a different ball game. the AB forwards did not match up A much.

 

@mike i agree with you on the issue regards to a forward pack. the forward pack in my view needs to still be able to slip between being mobile and still have the strong mongrel feel to it. that is why its so important to have a balance of more agile players and big strong burly ball carriers. being lobsided in either of the departments will lead to either the pack being to slow to be effiective or too light in the tight exchanges.

 

the AB pack is build for high intensity up tempo rugby so in that lays there biggest strength and can be exploited. the poms really retained the ball very well and attack the AB where most teams tend to try to outkick them or just give up the ball to there attack. which is the biggest mistake that one can make is to just give them the ball.

 

the AB did not get that type of momentum that they get per default at the ruck and that really upset there pattern and playing abilty


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5823
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 09:51:51

@clevermike,

i believe in a strong mobile pack too, what i disagree with is saying that the All Blacks are mobile BUT not strong. i dont think the All Blacks have the best forward pack in the world, but i do think they work better as team then any other pack out there. the synergy they have let them compete against every team in nearly every facet of forward play. mobilty is very big in the All Blcks master plan.

take nothing away from the poms well deserved win, but their win was an anomoly, something that happens very rarely, but when u do beat the All Blacks, theres a reason why it is the talk of the rugby circles world wide. its why beating the All Blacks is hailed as the best achievement outside of the RWC, cos it is the hardest thing to do, its also why the UK media are now hailing the english as the world champions, but whatever. O_o

in order to beat the All blacks u almost need the stars to allign to ur cause, eng had their best game of the year both physically & tactically, while the All Blacks had their worst, which included worst perofrmances of their career from our usual go to guys like aaron smith, carter, conrad smith. how often do players have their worst game of the season & continued to get picked??? not very long IMO, but i consider it a one off and too much is being read into englands win. if u dont believe me, wait till this time next year, cos the All Blacks last loss before neg was to the wallabies and that sparked a 20 game unbeaten streak run which netted us the RWC and a clean sweep in the IRC where not one team including the rank No2 & 3 teams could even get a single championship point.
one must wonder what will happen in 2013 after this loss??? im quitely confident as usual that the All Blacks will dominate next year like they did this year.


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5823
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 09:51:54

@clevermike,

i believe in a strong mobile pack too, what i disagree with is saying that the All Blacks are mobile BUT not strong. i dont think the All Blacks have the best forward pack in the world, but i do think they work better as team then any other pack out there. the synergy they have let them compete against every team in nearly every facet of forward play. mobilty is very big in the All Blcks master plan.

take nothing away from the poms well deserved win, but their win was an anomoly, something that happens very rarely, but when u do beat the All Blacks, theres a reason why it is the talk of the rugby circles world wide. its why beating the All Blacks is hailed as the best achievement outside of the RWC, cos it is the hardest thing to do, its also why the UK media are now hailing the english as the world champions, but whatever. O_o

in order to beat the All blacks u almost need the stars to allign to ur cause, eng had their best game of the year both physically & tactically, while the All Blacks had their worst, which included worst perofrmances of their career from our usual go to guys like aaron smith, carter, conrad smith. how often do players have their worst game of the season & continued to get picked??? not very long IMO, but i consider it a one off and too much is being read into englands win. if u dont believe me, wait till this time next year, cos the All Blacks last loss before neg was to the wallabies and that sparked a 20 game unbeaten streak run which netted us the RWC and a clean sweep in the IRC where not one team including the rank No2 & 3 teams could even get a single championship point.
one must wonder what will happen in 2013 after this loss??? im quitely confident as usual that the All Blacks will dominate next year like they did this year.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12019
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 13:35:24

Sasue

Though I in the main agree with you about issues - I must admit that McCaw remains as the strong point amongst the All Black forwards - Reid definitely is good as well.

If I can select a combined forwards team from the Springboks and All Blacks - there would only be the above two players that would feature in such a combined forward pack.     The rest of the pack is just not up to standard.

Lets look at the different positions in the team forwards:-

   *  No 8     -      Reid        -       Vermeulen

   *  Flanks     -  McCaw and Louw

   *  Locks     -   Etzebeth and Bekker

  *   Props     -   Beast and Du Plessis 

  *   Hooker  -    Du Plessis

Of the All Black forwards I think that -

  *   Messam is a good Super `15 player - but questionable on test level;

  *   Whitelock and Romero are above average locks - whilst  Retallick is sub-standard;

  *   Franks is a good prop - nothing else to write home about;

  *   There are no New Zealand hookers that really impress me ar all.

I would be very worried about the chances of the All Blacks beating the Springboks in the Championship if I was you.   In the EOYT  the All Blacks had an easy ride against weaker teams and when they came up against the POMS they failed rather badly - their forwards failed badly and that could be the main problem next year.

The All Blacks main benefit would be if  Meyer fouls up again insofar as selections are concerned and that he keeps his hopeless assistant - coach setup in place.     

 

         


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 504
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 14:01:32

Clevermike, agree in part with your forward picks except at prop, Beast is past his use by date and Bismark is no where near the form he had last year, where Meleamu has stood up to 100 caps. Again I think your cherry picking in the hope that the AB loss means that they are on the way down. Yes the Boks beat the English as did the Wallabies but neither team beat the AB's and have worst 2012 season records, if we go purely off 2012 records you don't have a leg to stand on. The Boks have lost in past to teams like Scotland, lost regularly to Ireland and have a loss to Wales, so does that mean the Boks are were a bad team, yet they remain #2 in world. Your last paragraph again shows that you have no respect for NZ as a winning rugby nation, and rather that their wins were purely by luck or coc-ups by the Bok coaches. Again you totally ignore history, have the boks had 20 yrs of bad coaches, inadequate players or the AB's just been better. You can keep harping on like the Mayans the "doom and Gloom" prophecy but guarentee this loss will go in the bank and be motivation for further games, it's the Boks I think who need to be wary, cause if there is one thing the AB's excel at its adapting its game esp. after a loss.


Henrynz09

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 26
l;hjljkhlk
December 03, 2012, 14:12:12


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12019
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 14:35:57

polyboy

Sorry - that last sentence was a jibe against Meyer and his selection strategy - but poorly put.  The word "only" is out of place and shpould never have been included.

I am genuinely worried about rugby in general and am effectively an AB supporter - after all they are the number 1 rugby team in the world and give all rugby lovers something to admire.However, I am also somerimes the worst critic of players and teams - as you may have notied what I wrote about the Springbok team.

Please don't get me wrong - what I wrote basicallly amounts to some potential problems as to the All Black team that must be thought about and attended to as I see things.  

I grant you that Du Plessis played in only a  few tests this year due to injury - but my second hooker choice would be Strauss ahead of Meleamu or Hore for that matter.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 16:21:02

www.youtube.com/watch

 www.youtube.com/watch just have the look at how farrel hit the line and the speed of pass that created the space for barrit. barrit hit the pass with speed and ran into the space

 

englands mentality and approach was the biggest decider. they moved the ball into space and ran at the AB. the rucks was won by the english and the AB was on the backfoot.

 

the english did not try to outkick them but they outrun them.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2708
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 03, 2012, 16:48:26

CM, the Eng/SA and the Eng/NZ games were indeed contrasting but at the same time similar in some ways.

England's kicks from hand were the same in both games, even though they played different halfback combinations. Twenty nine kicks in both games. SA and NZ did not kick the ball considerably more though. SA kicked 33 times and NZ 31 times. The differences did come in the running game though, and I might be mistaken but I think it might well be because of our defence as well as the fact that they had more possession than in the game against us. Here is the catch though. The did not outrun them in that they ran more against them. They probably ran with more commitment against NZ and more effectively, but they ran less against NZ than what they did against us.

 

Against us the ran gained 433 metres with ball in hand, and from 119 runs. Against NZ they gained 446 from 91 runs. Their clean breaks were the same in both games, i.e. 5. Aginst us they beat the defenders 15 tims and 18 times against NZ.

 

Have a look at the match stats from the two games:

 

www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2012/rugby/match/153976.html

 

 

www.espnscrum.com/new-zealand-tour-2012/rugby/match/153977.html


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 04, 2012, 08:21:44

if you look at the target areas they attacked 5 to 10 meters away from the ruck and the ruck speed was far greater than against us. against us they kept it closer to the point of contact but they did not run of the ball so quickly like they did.

 

they had more speed and width on attack and that was there biggest strong suite. the AB after there virus doing the rounds looked jaded but they still managed to at least compete.


Beeno1

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 04, 2012, 14:25:09

Mike I am glad you have finally come to see the ab weaknes at forward. Hence my contention that this is NOT a great side - also for the other many reason mentioned before.

The kiwis can bleat on about the lack of respect from some posters but they had better heed the warning signs. 

As for always supporting every SH side. Nope the abs are the exception and until the they clean up their act no support whatsoever from me. In fact I cant think of a single time when I will support the abs. The BL saga was the very last straw.

The Kiwis fans here are great guys but to me nz rugby ethics suck big time. The warm feeling re the abs have long gone. Hence I really enjoyed the Poms comprehensive win and was supporting them all the way.
 

Sorry but until we get straight refs from NZ and no more mcaaaws (alias mccheat) nothing will make me respect nz rugby. Their get the yarpie campaign does not endear them to me either. Plonkers like Naas should wake up and smell the pong!  

Muncher mcaaaw said the virus did not efffect them. The abs were in fact playing some of their best rugby of the match at the end of the game. So would all ab apologists drop that one. Thanks.

Beeno very jaundiced by abs approach to the game. Fair go mate.

 


clevermike

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Posts: 12019
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 04, 2012, 18:41:16

Beeno

You are wrong here - I have been a constant critic of the New Zealand play over the last 5 months - ask Sasue about the long debates we had about that one.   I always maintained that the pack is too old and that McCaw is showing signs of decline compared to his play two years ago.   I have been constant in the relevant regard over a perios of time and what I said above is nothing new.

It is not the mistake of the All Blacks that Bryce Lawrence buggered up.   I have been constant about one issue - I support the Springboks - and in their absence any SH team against any NH team.   I support the Argentinians against ant NH team as well.   Some people may like it - others won't.   This turnaround resulted from the test a few years ago - when I met some Aussies  (all wearing Springbok attire) in the beer tent after a test between SA and Scotland at Murrayfield.   There were also some New Zealanders doing the same.   Just one question - if they do it in Springboks games - why should we not respond in kind?

Incidentally that test on 27 November 2004  was won by the Springboks who struggled against the Scots up till half time and let 6-3.   The worst player (you won't believe it - but it was Fourie Du Preez)  was replaced at halftime and afterwards the Springboks played like real champions and won by 45-10.  


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 504
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 05, 2012, 02:29:16

Beeno1, if the AB's had not lost it would not have given you anything to hang your hat on. Like I said Bok fans have been praying for the AB's to lose because it gives them an opportunity to say "I told you so" based on one game. You ignore the 11 wins and judge the AB's on 1 game, but then again I shouldn't be surprised because it seems most things kiwi irk you so realise the AB's and kiwi's will never get a fair shake of the stick fom someone like you but it's always entertaining to read your skewed comments. With Lawrence I can understand the venom, McCaw is loved by the media and wider rugby public so your remarks seem to stem more from jealously, that Boks are unable to produce a player of his caliber.  The fact that you support a NH team playing the AB's really shows your distaste for all things AB,(I really thought SH fans supported each other when playing England) but hey like I said your entitled to your opinion, but seeing as the AB's are going to remain number 1, and their trophy case is bulging with everything the Boks want I suppose we face a few more decades of Beenorisms.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 05, 2012, 02:53:47

Lets take a look at some of the AB's wins this year.

2nd test vs Ireland - Should have lost. Ireland saved all their courage for this one and they were spent for the last test but the fact is, that very average Irish team almost went over the top of AB in their back yard.

Aus in championship opener - Aus were absolutely pathetic yet they finished within 5 points...

Aus return match in NZL - 2 tries against an excuse for an Aussie team (SA put more tries against Aus in 1 game than you did in 3 this year)

Aus in 3rd test - draw - not even a solitary try from this "awesome" attacking team

SA in Dunedin - ha ha we can go on all day but we only have Morne Steyn to thank for not handing NZ their first loss (hammering actually) at the new Forsyth Barr stadium in Dunedin

SA in SA - What can you expect when Elton Janjties plays more than 2 mins. Attacking from 10 metres behind the advantage line is never going to get you on the front foot. Pat Lambie to replace Goosen that day and things might have been so different as when Goosen was on (similar player to Lambie but Lambie is better imo) SA were dominating. We went flat when Elton took over as he was out of his depth!

Argies in Wellington - Argies cant play with the stadium lights off guys but nice touch to halt the momentum ;-)

 

That is 7 games right there out of the 14 where NZL were not in control of their destiny. As fate would have it, they creeped out with the win. Much like the WC where fate came in the name of bryce lawrence. As the kiwi's would say, "bryce, good on ya mate!" ;-)


moolaa

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 05, 2012, 08:28:51

 Logic, have you and reality ever crossed paths? I wouldn't think so.....


Beeno1

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 05, 2012, 09:12:07

Mike I dont necessarily blame the ab players themselves re BL as looke to be a NRFU job 0They coul dno tbea r not to win the WC at home in nz - desparation) as was their honouring the guy after  the job on the Boks was done. I dont honou rmccaaaw becasue of his illegal play..Neither do I accept that as yarpies we deserve to be blown out of games by bent down under refs who often show a nauseating bias against our sides.

Normally one would support other SH sides, However in the circumstance it is impossible to support nz. How can you support  nz when they stab us in the back? Seriously think about that. Naas being all gleeful re the abs wining the wc seeing it wasnt us made me want to puke! Then there was our own Craig handing the abs a world cup win and denying France -  the decidedly better team on the day - it was disgusting to putit mildly.

Kick us some more some bok fans ask the the NZRU and we will love you all the more. Its sick really.

No nz must clean up their act and things can go back to how they should be - an honourable rivalry. The NZRU nees to offer an apolgy to the Boks re BL. That could be a start. Then they must clean up their ref side of things and their play on the field.

Excellent sumation Boklogic.  My assssment is that they abs have been a good team, above average etc but I would not go as far as to call them a great side for all the valid reasons I and Boklogic mentioned.

End of story

 


polyboy

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 05, 2012, 13:36:49

As I have mentioned in past but always conveniently ignore by SA fans. SA has never been short of a bias ref. As When AB toured SA prior to neutral refs and they would tell you in test matches in SA with SA refs they were playing against 16 not 15. 1976 series being the most obvious. Probably accounts for why it was so dificult to win a series in  SA prior to readmiitance. Funnily when neutral refs now used the AB have dominated....coincidence or a return to rugby cosmic balance. But hey we let 1976 go in 1976, continuing to blame Bryce Lawrence for a Bok loss still....is just  looking for someone to blame for the bok loss...if anything they have been playing to the same consistency since the RWC.


clevermike

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 05, 2012, 16:40:44

Since there is nothing much else going on worth discussing - we are - thanks to Beeno - back to the seemingly endless debate on referees.   There were very good reasons for the introduction of a system of neutral referees - since in the main the referees from ALL COUNTRIES were often biased in favour of their countries of origin.     It is useless to argue otherwise - it was so in the case of the Springboks and it was so in the case of the All Blacks.  

The introduction of neutral referees in the main was supposed to solve the issue of bias and to a substantial extent it did happen.   What it did not solve was the issue of INCOMPETENT referees.    Referees are human and like all humans do make mistakes.   However, the term incompetence has a wider implication - one or two refereeing errors do not normally has an impact on outcome of games - but constant errors throughout games can really influence outcomes.

There can be no argument about the fact that Bryce Lawrence was an incompetent referee - so much so that he was removed from the IRB panel.   That was not the first time it happened and would certainly not be the last time.

We can  talk and debate this issue endlessly and becuase it relates to the past - we are going to get nowhere in this case.   So why not bury the hatchet and rather look at the future.   There will again be cases of incomptenet referees and we then can concentrate on those referees and will be able to have another debate - at this stage it is a looong YAWN. 


polyboy

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 06, 2012, 01:41:06

Well said Clevermike, must admit replying was a "Beeno reflex" I should know better was pretty bored now no international rugby. As far as I'm concerned dead and buried. Onward to a new banter.


clevermike

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 06, 2012, 11:34:22

polyboy

Not to worry - my friend.   In two months time we will go hammer and tongs about Super 15 - so a bit of dullness gives me the time to clean up some essential wotk I have to do and at the same time concentrate on  cricket.  

The New Zealand cricket team will be here in two weeks time - and I am afraid is in for an extremely hard time.   SA is still the World no 1 test side and can also go back to the top in ODI.s and Twenty 20 cricket if we beat New Zealand and Pakistan in the next three months - that is very likely since both series are being played in SA.   Insofar as cricket tests are concerned we have not lost a single series away from home for 8 years - which in fact is also a record.

 


Papamoa

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 06, 2012, 13:20:41

all right sharkbait, NZ cant win every test thats just crazy, we do lose now and then. England pulled one out there  ass wont change anything they lost the 6 test before that. AB did have one of those games that just dont work out. Hey England had a good win, good on them but cant see them making the RWC final just yet its 3 friggan tears away anything can and will happen before then. Boks need to win more before going into detail of how to beat the All Blacks prove it first.


polyboy

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 06, 2012, 14:11:48

Clevermike hate to admit it but I loathe cricket, maybe the only NZer who does but has never appealed to me. But still know enough to say probably because our cricket team has always sucked as far back as I can remember, shallow I know if your not winning or even win occasionally can't be bothered. Or it may be tha tbecause its non-contact.


Sharkbok

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 09, 2012, 14:35:49

 

 

 It seems that Allblacks.com is in agreement-

 

 

JAMES MORTIMER    10.DEC.2012GETTY IMAGES

 

Some would successfully argue that the All Blacks loss to England was the first time their pack had been dominated in 2012, their first and only Test defeat of the season. (Not really, in Dunedin by the boks and also by Australia)

 

 

 

 

Indeed, while the heroics of centre Manu Tuilagi were noted, it was the ferocity in which the English pack tore into their All Blacks counterparts that may have enthused other heavyweight nations around the world who witnessed a not unfamiliar blueprint.

 

Often the key for beating an All Blacks side is getting on top of them up front.

 

 

 

However the one aspect that could force a slight shift in the All Blacks thinking is that their fast paced game, while reliant on a powerful pack getting quick ball recycled at the breakdown, may have subconsciously stepped away from the classical New Zealand pack attack that has been a hallmark of their game for decades.

 

While the concept of All Blacks forwards running with the ball, a time honoured tradition, has been duplicated by this team, there will be an intriguing response from the Men in Black’s pack next season, who won’t appreciate being challenged so effectively up front in the final test of 2012.

 

The Springboks may in theory lick their lips at how the English went about their business, one threat to the All Blacks who can duplicate the same muscle in the forward exchanges.

 

Les Bleus, who showed against the Wallabies their desire to impose themselves up front hasn’t dimmed, will be thinking that perhaps if they bring the brutal game seen throughout the fields of France to New Zealand in 2013 they could chase a rare series win in the All Blacks backyard.

 

Even if not, the French could target the second Test of the Steinlager Series as the ultimate party crasher, where the All Blacks will play their 500th Test.

 

All Blacks coach Steve Hansen said throughout the season they were looking to effectively run teams off their feet, and that approach yielded over 120 points against Ireland in three Tests including a record 60-0 romp in Hamilton.

 

During The Investec Rugby Championship the All Blacks achieved significant victories against each rival, blanking the Wallabies 22-0 at Eden Park to follow up on their Rugby World Cup semi-final success, while the 54-15 win in La Plata and the 20 unanswered second half points at Soccer City were among the more impressive victories achieved by Test sides this year.

 

Rivals may have seen what could be interpreted as a chink up front in the All Blacks armour. (Stop the All Black forwards from playing the ball on the floor to slow down opposition possesion, and their forwards are not strong enough)

 

 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5823
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 09, 2012, 15:54:19
New Zealand   South Africa
61 from 68 (89.7%) Rucks won 60 from 64 (93.8%)
0 from 1 (0.0%) Mauls won 9 from 9 (100.0%)
Set pieces
6 won, 0 lost (100.0%) Scrums on own feed 4 won, 2 lost (66.7%)
12 won, 1 lost (92.3%) Lineouts on own throw 13 won, 5 lost (72.2%)


here are some important numbers from the duendin test & as a christmas present for my SA brus, i wont post the McCaw vs Springbok loose forward stats, cos that would be depressing if ur not a McCaw fan.

but more importantly, our forwards dominated the Boks at the set pieces & gained parity at the breakdown, where is this myth about domianting the ABs in dunedin coming from, oh right a case of the one eyed blues.
numbers dont lie, Boks did not dominate us in dunedin, im sure ive watched that game a lot more times then any saffa here, so rewatch it & count the n umber of time from 60min mark onwards u see big Bok forwards huffing & puffing their way around the feild, or is asthma impersonations part of meyeres plan???


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5823
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 09, 2012, 16:17:39

this whole eng debacle really is much ado about nothing, yes the All Blacks lost to eng, but the way the All Blacks played that day, they should count their lucky stars they werent playing italy, scotland or ireland, cos they would have lost to them too & histroy would have been made as NZ for the first time would have lost to them.

 

by far it was the most shocking performance ive ever seen from the All Blacks, we were completely outplayed & outgunned and the best team won on the day, but anybody foolish enough to think that its as simple as  beating the All Blacks forwards has no grasp of the concept that its a team game.
All Blacks wernt just dominated for the first time upfront, but we were dominated all around the park, not efficent with our ball, a ton of unforced errors & no urgency except for the last 20-15 mins when all teams trailing usulaly up the ante.

in order to beat the All Blacks the way england did, u will need the following,,,,

-dominate the AB forwards everywhere on the paddock (not like the saffas illusion of dunedin dominace)

-be very efficent with ur ball in hand

-have a better all round kicking game then the ABs both goal & tactical kicking

-hope that key players in the ABs have the worst game of their careers, like aaron smith, dan carter, keirean read & conrad smith

-for no All Black to put their hand up & be counted, in other words the All Blacks entire 15 to be weaker in every aspect of the game

despite it all, both team still ended up with three trys a piece the only silver lining in the All Blacks dak cloud.
but importnatly if teams can replicate the above mentioned, then they will have no problem in beating the All Blacks, but how many times has anyone seen the above mentioned to the All Blacks in one game??? o_O

the stars were alligned for the england cause that fateful day, but i have evry faith in the All Blacks to bounce back from the twickneahm disaster.

what im wondering is the last time the All Blacks lost before england was against australia in the TriNats, they then went on to win the RWC, a whitewash series victory over ireland, a clean sweep of the IRC which consists of 2 of the top 3 teams in the world & where they didnt concede ONE championship point and a 20 match unbeaten rugby streak.
the question u should really be asking is whats going to happen now after this loss, cant wait to find out but as usual i will be cheering,,,,

THE MIGHTY MIGHTY ALL BLACKS!!!
 


Sharkbok

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Posts: 3447
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 10, 2012, 20:18:03

 @sasuke. I have downloaded the Allblack vs boks test in Dunedin again. I am going to evaluate the performance of the All Black forwards and will update accordingly. 

 

As for your other notes"  ABs have the worst game of their careers, like aaron smith, dan carter, keirean read & conrad smith"This is what pressure does- with little time and space anyone starts to look average.

This is what I am saying about the model to beat the All Blacks. It is not relying on them to play badly, it is playing in a way that puts pressure on the All blacks and hence resulting in them not playing well. 

If the All Black forwards are prevented from slowing the ball down at the tackle situation, suddenly the team in possesion can use their strong ball carrying forwards to dominate the advantage line and recycle quick ball. This is when holes in the All Blacks defence starts opening like Moses parting the red sea. 

 

 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3447
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 10, 2012, 21:39:10

 Sasuke- I just watched the Dunedin test again. I am sure that if Goosen or Lambie had started instead of the useless Morne Steyn the boks would have won the game. Also Dean Greyling was a complete waist of space dropping the ball on the try line. The boks easily dominated in the forwards and just needed the backs to have some direction to score. 


hakwa

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 11, 2012, 09:23:45

 This is the Pom's Letter to Santa!


Beeno1

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 11, 2012, 09:30:14

Sharkbok the Dunedin game and the Poms splendid win show how one beats the abs.

How saSUE can try to maintain the Bok forwards did not dominate is a mystery. Lets hope the nz brains trsut thinks likewise.

It was ada ywhen we simply coulnt goa a kick and where we fluffed scoring opportuitie. Other tham that it wa saver tsound display that deserved another outcome. abs were extremely lucky to win that one but such luck cannot be relied upon. Engand on the other hand goaled their kicks and took their try scoring opportunitites.


hakwa

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 11, 2012, 09:43:30

 


sasuke uchiha

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 11, 2012, 10:33:52

@sharkbok,

ive watched that game plenty of times & i wouldnt be surprised if ive watched it a lot more times than any saffa boys here, but this all im saying if the Springboks dominated the All Blacks in dunedin, explain the follwing stats,,,,

 

New Zealand   South Africa
61 from 68 (89.7%) Rucks won 60 from 64 (93.8%)
0 from 1 (0.0%) Mauls won 9 from 9 (100.0%)
Set pieces
6 won, 0 lost (100.0%) Scrums on own feed 4 won, 2 lost (66.7%)
12 won, 1 lost (92.3%) Lineouts on own throw 13 won, 5 lost (72.2%)


when u look at the numbers how anyone can say that the Boks domianted the All Blacks in dunedin is beyond me. our forwards dominated the set [piece and we gained parity at the breakdowns bar the mauls.
did the Boks do enough to win??? they sure did, but im not going to play Bok fans favourite game would have should have could have, end of the day the Boks left dunedin without a single championship point, whcih according to u could have been saved if goosen was playing, yet how did goosen work out for u in sowetto??? and im talking about before his injury.


Sharkbok

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 11, 2012, 16:14:27

 @sasuke. These numbers do not include penalties given away in kickable positions. When a forward pack is being dominated they typically give away more penalties especially at the breakdown area. This is how England initially led the All Blacks 15-0 through 5 penalties. 

 

Morne Steyn just waisted most of the kicking and given that he has been so out of form should never have been in the team. 

Richie Mccaw is a serial offender and it is well documented that he should be penalised more. It is rumoured that Mccaws sabaticals timing with the introduction of a more vigilant video referee is no co-incidence. When the All Blacks pack gets dominated Mccaw lives on the floor and loves to slow down opposition ball even if from an offside position whilst lying on the floor. 


Beeno1

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 11, 2012, 16:31:09

"It is rumoured that Mccaws sabaticals timing with the introduction of a more vigilant video referee is no co-incidence"  You have to hand to mcaaaaw h ehas hi sfinger on the pulse!

Nice ones hAkwa!!!! 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5823
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 11, 2012, 17:12:13

@sharkbok,

 

LMAO, :oD

sorry buddy, but ur wrong again and let me post u the numbers and penalties involved in the dunedin test.
 

New Zealand   South Africa
Discipline
11 Penalties conceded 16
0/0 Yellow/red cards 1/0


total penalties from forwards,,,

All Blacks - 6 total
t woodcock - 3
l romano - 2
k read - 1

Springboks - 11
beast - 1
f van der mewe - 3
f louw - 3
d greyling - 3
a bekker - 1

the numbers again beg to differ with ur arguments bro, & u must forgive me for taking so much glee in proving this (quotation marks) Boks domainant performance argument wrong, :oP

SA education has let a lot of u boys down big time in the math department, especially with the winning percentage argument on another thread ( not u sharkbok BTW), but if u can possibly wrap ur head around it the butterfly effect makes mornes missed kicks arguments redundant.
end of the day, i dont really want to debate about hypotheticals, u said earlier that goosen would have made all the difference, sowetto test begs to differ.

i do concede that eng nailing their goals made a huge difference, but did ur Boks dominate the All Blacks from No 1 to 15 that day??? no they didint. our backs were far better than urs and the numbers i have provided prove both ur arguments about the Bok forwards dominating the All Blacks wrong.


Sharkbok

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 12, 2012, 04:09:31

 sasuke I must admit you are a good statician. It seemed like the boks got more penalties even when watching for the 2nd time. Not sure but it did seem in the whole match that the boks had more oppertunities.

It was just the useless Morne Steyn kicking the ball away aimlessly. Also Dean Greylings stupidity was beyond belief- he dropped the ball with an open tryline and anything he did turned to crap. When I watched the game for the 2nd time it did not appear that either team played very well.

The Springbok backline was totally clueless. Zane Kirchner cant pass and kills every movement going to the ground. He should easily have put Habana in for the try, and his other touches were rubish.

I still feel that if the bok backs could have played a half decent game and the kicking was ok it should have been in the bag easily. Goosen against Australia in Johannesburg was the most funtional backline in years. He did get injured very early on against the All Blacks and did not really get a chance to ignite his backs prior to this as it was mostly held within the forwards or tactical kicks. 

I think we are going to see closer games in 2013 and with the right combinations in the pack, with some more experience in the backline will see the boks more clinical and convert oppertunities into points- yes hypothetical but I am sure they will be better next year than this year. The tournament with Scotland, Italy and Samoa will be a low pressure oppertunity to get the backline functional and play more expansive. 2012 was a tough year as first up was the English with a new team, and England are good. Then straight into the 4 nations. Then the overseas tour. Some home games against some easy teams is a great oppertunity to get Lambie and Goosen experience at 10, and Frans Steyn should be back. 

I really enjoyed the Frans Steyn hand off of Conrad Smith, as well as his overall game. I reckon next year if he gets back into form and combines with a more experienced game time flyhalf of Goosen and/or Lambie we are going to see the backline of the boks play closer to their potential. Given the way our forwards have been progressing games like Dunedin will be put away as wins to the boks, Time will tell


Beeno1

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 12, 2012, 08:22:03

ou saSUE really tthinks his stats explain away the good thumping the ab forwards got. Please saSUE keep it real.

I suppose you are also in denial about the thumping the poms gave the wee ab pack. Head out of sand saSUE!  Boks sho ld have won comfrotably. As with the poms it was men against boys in the forwards.

As forthe penalty count well when do we ever get more penalties than the abs. Always remember Bob Dwyers stats. Abs 43 penaties to 1 yellow. Oz 7 penaties to 1 yellow and Boks 6 penalties to 1 yellow. Explain that please. abs get away with murder.


clevermike

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 12, 2012, 10:45:04

Sasue

I always have a problem with stats issues and that becomes more evident as is the case with the penalty count in the Dunedin test.   What count to my mind more heavily is the number of penalties given away when a team is under pressure.    On checking the stats the isue became clearer.   The Springboks kicked at goal 8 from 11 penalties conceded - whilst the All Blacks managed to kick at goal five times only.   Of the five two was silly bugger penalties given away by Greyling and Van der Merwe - and cannot really be ascribed to pressure by the All Black forwards.  

The differences come in with penalties conceded by the team under pressure - ie penalties kicked at goal. .   The latter is a much clearer issue ro my mind.   You mentioned 6 penalties given away by forwards - where did the other 5 came from?   You mentioned that Reid gave away only one penalty - but I can clearly remember that his penalty count on the day in question was in fact 3.   McCaw also gave away one penalty that was not recorded as such by you.   ASs to the forward penalties given away by Greyling and Van der Merwe not one resulted from forward pressure - but rather from silly bugger play that should never occur in international games.    In any event Van der Merwe is not a Springbok front line player and the All Blacks were lucky that Etzebeth did not play in that game.   Louw's penalties all came from attempts to recover opposition ball 9in tackle situations - not from concerted All Black forward pressure. 

My contention is that the All Black forwards in particular was under more pressure than the Springbok forwards were - especially since they blundered when in a rather vulnerable position.   Take for instance two mauls during the game where the All Blacks were pushed back at least 20 meters - something never done by the All Black forwards.   Both cases resulted in penalties against the All Blacks.

You left out some telling   stats on the issue of mauls, rugs and turnovers that basically was all in favour of the Springboks.   Also left out are stats on territory and possession - which also favour the Springboks.

We all know that the All blacks backline was vastly superiror to the Springboks and that is reflected by the fact that all the points scored at the Dunedin test was by backline players.   On the day the Springbok forwards were definitely substantially superior to the All Black forwards - whether you like it or not.   The Springboks poor backline performances and the poor goal kicking record of 22% converted penalties was a major impact and a negative that could not be overcome by the Springbok forwards 

 


sasuke uchiha

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Posts: 5823
RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 13, 2012, 21:45:04

@clevermike,
its important that posters realise that im not saying the All Blacks were dominant in the dunedin test, only that the Boks were not as dominant as some are making it out to be.
the england forward pack that beat that All Blacks is what i would call a dominant performance, but the Boks in duendin, i would say that was a strong perforamnce and they laid enough of a platform that they could have won the game, or at the very least walked away with a championship point, but as we all know they didnt.


but excllent point there mike about penalties given away due to pressure, but before i address some of the finer points of ur post, the other 5 penalties that were conceded by the All Blacks were from the backs and they were from dagg, jane, savea and two from from conrad smith.
All Blacks gave away a lot of penalties for holding onto the ball, well over 50% of the penalties given were for that and that was due to good pressure from the Bok forwards, but two of the shots at goal that the Boks went for were not forced from pressure, one was conrads obstruction whcich francois steyn milked for all he could and the other was for taking a lineout jumper in the air, neither of which i would put down to good Bok forward pressure.
the last 20mins of the game saw a change in momentum with the forwards where the Boks literally seemed to be out of gas and running on fumes, cos the All Blacks won the lions share in the battle upfront.
BTW after watching the game again i couldnt find theother 2 penalties on read that u mentioned or the one on McCaw, if u have the exact time in the game in which u are referring too i would be more then happy to watch it again, but McCaw not getting penalised and read getting pinged once are accurate as far as i know and according to the espn stats.

i never mentioned the stats on possesion and territory cos they were pretty much 50/50 but they were in favour of the Boks
 

New Zealand   South Africa
49% Possession 51%
46% Territory 54%


as u can see neither possesion or the territory stats paints any kind of picture of who was domiannt.
but i did post the stats on the rucks and mauls if u look at my above posts??? o_O,,,but here they are again and IMO it dosent potray the dominance of the Springbok forwards,,,
 

New Zealand   South Africa
61 from 68 (89.7%) Rucks won 60 from 64 (93.8%)
0 from 1 (0.0%) Mauls won 9 from 9 (100.0%)


as u can see the ruckes were very even but the mauls were a one way street, but add to that the set pieces and again i say the Boks were not dominant.

again chaos theory/butterfly effect says the penalty kicks dosent really prove that the Boks chance of winning would have been greater, but as sharkbok correctly pointed out the england test begs to differ, except heres another way of looking at those penlaty goals that the steyn boys and goosen missed.
when morne landed his first penalty goal for the Boks the All Blacks scored a try straight away, so what if the Boks converted all their penalty goals and the All Blacks scored trys straight away after every kick, of course its a hypothetical imporbability, but so is saying that morne kicking converting all his goals, but i will leave the would have should have could have.
one can also only really wonder how much of an influence ezebeth would have had on the game, but if the sowetto test was anything to go by, then the All Blacks wouldnt have to worry about a thing, cos ezebeth was president kak in sowetto.

i still maintain the Boks didnt dominate the All Blacks and reading some of the articles on supersport, some of the saffa journos agree. i will say that the Bok forwards did enough to win, but then so did the All Blacks, end of the day each to their own and we can agree to disagree, but now to get back to writing my thank you letter to the All Blacks and steve hansen for a great season, LMAO, :oD


clevermike

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RE: Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms
December 13, 2012, 21:57:51

Sasue

Thank you my friend.   I never really believed that the Springbok forwards dominated the All Blacks - but they had some really bugger-ups as well.   Greyling was a very good player for the All Blacks  - he definitely do not play for the Springboks - and I thinl the absence of Etzebeth was also a negative for the Springboks.   Not too happy with Kruger as well - and the absence of Bismarck was also a problem.

Bearing in mind the above - I think the stats on territory and possession probably more or less reflect the strength of the two forward packs -   something like the All Blacks being about 47 and the Boks 53 out of 100 

Domination would be sonething like 60:40 - not 53:47 

 


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