The Ruckers Forum

Forum » Rugby » General Stuff » Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
Login to reply
 
 
 
3108 Topic: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 00:46:09

Is he your next Adi?


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6479
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 03:13:08

 Swami I could follow the line you always use....being ball starved......that he received the ball exactly once. But I believe a player needs to find work....so that's a negative. He did make all 5 of his tackles though.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 14:59:54

Difference being Moffie that if that had been Taute doing a no show against good opposition, you would have told us all how average he is.

Fact is de Jongh should never have been considered for a test start, its just another poor Meyer decision......the last 2 tests basically wasted what could have been 2 more tests for Taute to settle in at 13, instead we had the little man playing out of his depth


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10282
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 15:55:27

Saffex

Mozart was the great supporter of De Jongh on this site and still claim that he had an acceptable game against the Scots.   It would have been impossible for Taute to be worse than De Jongh was at 13 - but don't expect Mozatr to admit that.

After all knoking a ball and missing a tackle does not count in this case and vanishing into thin air in the English test is meaningless in this case.

Mozart in the first instance was singing the praises of De Jongh even after I published his stats - which proof to be poor over the past two years.   Would not believe that either - alrhoiugh in other respects he uses it consistently..   My contention is that Meyer made a complete farce of his player selections for the tour - especially with regard to the center position.  De Jongh was poor throughout the Super 15 and was so poor playing for WP in the CC that the backline functioned better when he was not in the team than it did when he was.   

You would never get an acknowledgement that De Jongh as a farcical selection from Mozart - so why not let the matter rest?.   .


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6479
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 16:37:47

Far from not acknowledging anything.....Mike....I said above "that's a negative". But I can't say his defence was poor, when it wasn't, he made all his tackles. It's not like he had a Taute like game, missed his tackles and lost the test. He was mediocre.....not disastrous as you two predicted. Deal with the facts, not your fantasies.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 16:44:46

The reality of de Jongh is that he is not a bad player, he does punch above his weight, has good pace, good step and technically a great tackler - but what Moffie fails to comprehend and what he wont acknowledge is the fact that de Jongh is out of his depth physically.

If de Jongh was the player he is now and weighed 98kg, he would be the perfect answer at 13 for the Boks.

As was evidenced in yesterdays match, space is at a premium in test rugby. By the time a 13 gets the ball, he is in traffic. In traffic, a 13 needs both skill, pace and physicality to beat his man. de Jongh is short of the physicality element and therein lies the problem and why he will never make it as a test player.

Defensive patterns are so structured and tight at the highest level that centres are forced to take contact constantly. You cannot rely on skill alone. You have to impose yourself physically and this is where size counts. You need to take contact and gain forward momentum, de Jongh at 85kg is never going to do this. When he takes contact he is driven back. The likes of Jean, Frans, JP and Taute are able to take contact, drive forward and ideally offload. Its not pretty but its the reality of the modern game, where the league style of play is coming into union more and more. Ultimately the aim is to create enough phases drawing defenders in and creating space for attackers to strike - but we are talking ideal world here - in reality traffic plays more of a role than space. The best exponents of creating space are the AB's, they are the one side that have mastered this and they do this by doing the basics so well. Their 9 clears the ball immediately and has a fantastic pass on him which creates extra seconds for his 10......from there is all about pace on the ball, angled runners, dummy runners, players looping and support players always being on hand to carry the momentum forward.

Conversely traffic plays a part in defence as well. Centres need to be physical enough to drive players backwards or stop them in their tracks. de Jongh is not able to do this. What he is good at is making low technically correct open field tackles away from traffic.

Its traffic and contact that is de Jongh's enemy.......traffic and contact dominate test matches and therein lies de Jongh's misery and why he will NEVER make a test 13

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6479
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 16:57:45

Of course if the same argument you just made is true, then Goosen will never be a running flyhalf. If the 13 runs in traffic, the 10 certainly runs in traffic. And Goosen , in spite being taller, is probably not as strong as de Jongh.

 

That of course is nonsense.....Cooper, Carter and Goosen have found space at 10. So space at 13 is there. But it takes imagination....to see the line, to make the move before the ball is passed. Brent Russell 8 years ago was cutting defences to shreds, and I doubt they were much less stacked than today. He drifted on the pass, by the time he got the ball he had already moved outside his man.

 

De Jongh could do this, and has on occasion. But he has also had long periods of doing little. Why is a good question.....because once in space, as we saw in that CC final, he is as elusive as anybody.

 

I don't totally disagree with your argument, but I think you take it too far. There is still room for a smaller, elusive runner in rugby.....but de Jongh has yet to prove he can do it at the test level.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10282
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 17:06:28

Saffex

There are more deficiencies in De Jongh than size -  he also lack in other aspects of the game - and that includes a wider vision and better reading of the game.

Insofar as the off-loading in tackle situations is concerned - none of the centers mentioned by you showed any capacity in that regard this year.   This applies to Steyn in particular whilst De Villiers and Taute did anything like off-loading in tackle situation.   I would add effective to clarify that description - none of them - except Pietersen showed any capacity in the relevant regard.  


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10282
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 17:16:14

Mozart

I accept that he was mediocre - as he was in the Super 15 series and also in almost all games in the CC competition.   The question remains - how could he be selected with his overall record?   Sorry to say - Meyer made a serious mistake here.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 17:25:48

Wrong a 10 has options, he is the one player who receives the ball in space. On receipt of the ball he has to sum up the situation and execute accordingly be it by passing, kicking or running it himself.  A running flyhalf does not mean he does all the running himself, quite the opposite - its a 10 who's summation and instinct mostly results in a run or pass if the situation allows, its not one who tends to kick when the situation clearly dictates for the ball to be run.

To say that defences are not more stacked and organised now than in the days of Brent is laughable

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6479
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 17:53:51

To say the flyhalf gets the ball in space is really laughable.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
RE: Moffie talk us through de Jongh at 13
November 25, 2012, 18:04:33

No Moffie its a fact and if you don't know that then rugby is not the game you have been watching for the past how many years.

So are you saying that the 10 receives the ball in traffic? Bwhaaahaaaa.........Moffie this is an all time high for you, no wonder you rate players I dont and vise versa, we clearly are watching different games!!


Leave a reply:

You need to be logged in to leave a reply.
 
 

From The Sideline