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He was saying that with our talent pool we should be beating the abs regularly and be at number one. Have to agree.

However he says we are destroying our players through bad player mangement and he mentioned Jannie Du Plessis who he thought had played 35 consecutive games in a row!!!  Why dont these twits listen!

Doctor Knokes has had his time in the media, now each year he just states the obvious that the players are playing to much rugby. As for beating the All blacks, well our backline is a shambles compared to them and this has nothing to do with too much rugby. Our Forwards are stronger than the All blacks although our backlines is not end of story- more of a skills problem in the backs than the amount of playing time

I respect Prof Noakes opinion in regards to the Boks but how does quantify that the talent pool in South Africa is better than NZ's?  If we use the U 20's as a a measuring stick then the Baby Boks should be winning this year in and year out but it has been the Baby Blacks that have dominated the tournament bar 2012 where they finished 2nd. If we take rugby in general NZ reigns in 7's, womens rugby not to mention the 15's. South Africa has 5 x as many registered rugby players but I think NZ produces the more talented players because of not only their training methods, but the structure of the rugby environment from 5 yrs up at club and school level, as well as touch football, flag football, 7's play, informal beach play etc.   Poor player management is mentioned and can't comment on this other than to ask why  do they not do what the AB's do and get players in specialist positons of international standard and rotate them or players that can cover several positions(wing/fullback ala Cory Jane) so if one is injured they slot in. The Bok forwards are bigger but stronger...need to see quantifiable figures before I believe this.

poly quota player selection is rife at under 21 level. This also reflects in how few of these black players, who were Bok under 21 selections,  can't go further. Ask Snapster what he thinks about under 21 selections but wear your ear muffs! Sorry the under 21 scenario cant be used as a measure.

Noakes is quite right we obliterate talent here and it tends to survive dispite all efforts to the contrary!  Player management and skills development are not up to scratch and so we have to play second fifddle or even third fiddle to the wee abs!!!!

Please listen to a wise man like Prof Noakes and then also bear in mind the wise Meyer and Rassie said exactly the same thing as have other comentators and of course notably none other than Beeno the oracle!!

This is a MAJOR issue. As important if not more so than any other issue.

Case closed.

polyboy

I think that you are wrong in trying to fault Prof Noakes remarks.   He is an expert in his field and would not make statements like he did., unless he has done some real  research on the issue.   Persoinally I do believe that in the under 20 category of players - the player pool is much stronger in SA  than in New Zealand - especially amongst the forweatds.   In the age group 21-25 New Zealand definitely have some very good players - but not up to the standard of the present team and I do believe that even the up-and-coming players are really thinly spread if one bears in mind the Super 15 performances.

The problem is that New Zealand is in the same trap as SA was after 2007.   We kept  on playing older players without really integrated younger players in the set-up.   That created a void in the player pool and is detrimental to player resources development.   You will argue that I am not correcrt and that there are a number of younger players in the present squad in Eudope - but even some of those are rapidly nearing  30 ywae of age.

The talent pool issue is further highlighted by the average age of the All Black players - who played this year.   The average age of the forwards were 32 years and the backs 27 years of age - with two key backline players already 29 years old.   That confirms that there are not enough quality younger players coming through to seriously challenge the older players for positions in the team.

2013 will be a crucial year for team development in SA - and I hope that there is some more serious steps in replacing especially the older players in the All Black tream.   Unless that is done - there is all the chances in the world of a downward trend in performances of the team as a whole in 2013 and thereafter.

Clevermike, am not faulting his remark, just questioning it. He sounds like he is an authority on SA rugby, if he has comparative data between  AB's and Boks that validate his remarks then I stand corrected. No offence intended. Believe it or not although I am an AB fan 1st, I also follow the Boks (when not playing AB's) and am waiting for them to open up. You know this Saturday against England If in 1st quarter they more than have the measure of the English forwards I hope the back line throws caution to the wind and OPEN up, cause the Boks have a strong enough team that if it goes awry they can close it down and play the conservative stuff, but c'mon chance your arm, and back yourselves. Sometimes with regard to back play I feel that there is some self doubt about running the ball or maybe they have been conditioned to NOT run. I look forward to the game anyway.

noakes and his staff was the master men behind jake's peparations. his background is highly regarded just whished he was used more

I think Poly we all would like to see the bokke run the ball and not be so cautious. However I think Meyer is trying to play foremostly for a win.  However we saw what he said to Lambie so maybe he will try and run the ball more against England.

Next year I want at least a home win against both Nz and Oz. Better than that of course would be great. We have to see definte improvement in the yway we play - more skill and flair. Most rugby fans know we have a rich vien of talent here now so Meyer has to show that we are on an upward curve.

I would also lik eto see all of the Stormers,bulle, Sharks and Cheetahs playing effective attacking rugby while not loosing sight of our traditional strengths. I cannot beleive the Stormers wil lb eas nondescript on attack as we wer e this year. The Young bulle side I beleive will be better next year as well. All this will also help Meyer.

Abs will have no problem in my view of manageing the integration of younger players. They always do this well and will ease them in without a hiccup. Whether they will be as good remains to be seen. However I am not one of those thinking this is a great ab side - so why not. The point is WE have to improve- I doubt the abs will get worse. Finally we have huge scope to impove as we are coming off a low base re skills attack etc. The abs dont.

one thing that one can take note of is noakes passion for rugby.

i for one never said lets trash the bok way but we need to understand were we are and what we need to do to evolve to a stage where we dominate every aspect of rugby. that mindshift needs to happen and the obsession with the forward defense only approah has cost us since badly since 92. the stats prove that our win record since readmission has been very very poor to our pre isolation. main culprit being the way how we approach the game and play it has changed.

we as a nation defend well and have great forwards. so as i have called it on hordes of posts dating back to my first post we need to develop our weak points and the net result will be a perfect mixture of attack and defence. the game pattern and mindshift needs to happen. appointing coaches that are specialists in our weak development areas should not even be a question really. the appointments of players that not specialists like matfield and hougaard suddently elevated to positions that they as players were never good at themselves nor have any track record send alarm bells to everyone involved. we as a country are lacking in attack and dont have the skills nor the finesse to evolve to that higher level.

the quality of our play should be the main concern and if we play to even 80% of the level of talent we have then we should be a sure bet in every game we play.

we have amazing depth but due to lacking foresight and poor game patterns and weak development of skills those talent will not reach a level that they should. a size obsessed gym rat culture needs to work on there skills and running lines

one off the biggest cancers in our rugby has been off the ball running and support play which has not been sorted out at least since eddie jones was in the setup.

Methinks Prof Noakes is simply another Boer Boofhead who believes in the 'master race' philosphy that sadly so many South African white males still ascribe too, despite the Republic now being a Black led and controlled nation. Since neutral referees were appointed the All Blacks have clearly been the most successful international rugby side, including having a significantly better win/loss record over the Boks. Yes, admittedly the Bok forwards are invariably bigger than the All Black forwards, but that's part of their problem - less atheleticism and more focus on simply using their bulk and size to overpower their opposition. Its the same boring game that England have played for decades. This works against lesser opposition but the All Black forward pack's fittness, speed and athleticism will most times beat the Bok's brawn and boofhead attitude to the game. I'm incredibly surprised that Etsebeth has been selected by the Boks - he seems far too athletic and intelligent to fit their standard BORING game plan. There was a time when Springbok teams had exhilirating backs and played exciting positive attcking rugby. How sad those days have gone. I think 'Moolah' with his fair and reasoned appraisal of the game and deadly accurate use of statistics invariably gets it right. Open your eyes Beeno1, read and try your best to comprehend what Moolah says, and then weep. 

 Noakes must be a clown of the highest order!

How does SA having greater player depth than NZ equate to them losing time and time again to them? Farcical!

I've been banging on about this on this website for a while now. SA's player depth is a myth! As soon as you send a 2nd team to Europe you either get beaten or scrape through for a narrow win. When the AB's do it, they still win so where's your depth?

Wake up and smell the roses boys!

Catalina

Welcome to the board - but your start here has really been not of a high order.   We know what to expect from a clown like Moodaa - utter rubbish and now you reach a lower level than that nincumpoop.  

The issue here has nothingto do with bullshit like the Broederbond but has to do with the game of rugby.   In any event do you really know anything about the Broederbond - I live in SA and I don't know what they actually do or even whether they actually exist anymore.    But I suppose then that yoour massive knowledge of SA is so comprehensive that you have factual informaion on everything - but showing complete ignotrance about issues relating to rugby.   Because Prof Noakes said somehing you did not like - you use complete and utter rubbish to try and descredit him personally.

When you look at an issue like this you look basically at two spects -

*   The present player scenario; and

*   The future scenario.

Because the All Blacks won the latest WC for the seond time after a 24 year brek - playing a very experienced team containing some real stars and they continue with that team - does not necessarily reflect a continuance in winning in future.   There is no doubt about the present teams strengths - what is doubtful is how long the present squad can last.    Even the so-called second stringers are in their late 20's - there are little talent in the younger category coming through.

What I have seen from a rugby perspective is that there are definite problems in SA about future team development and team building - but it has started and will continue at a much higher level.   There are major problems in backline play that needs to be addressed and there is no dount as to the superiority of the All Blacks backline.    But lets get back to facts and not fiction.

For th future I would rather have a team with the age average of 25 years than one with an age average of 30 years ro try and use for future development - and that is where the problem lies.    The All Black star players like Ritchie McCaw (in fact the whole forward set-up bar Reid, Romano and Whitelock needs to be replaced within the next yea or sor), as well as Carter. Nonu, Conrad Smith and even Corry Jane are rapidly nearing retirement age and what is there after them?   In any event wih the exception of Cade - there is really nothing frightful about the All Black forwards  coming through.   Romano and Whirtelock are useful locks - that looks good when they run like centers and atrocious in fixed forward play - Retallick is a joke in bad taste.    Behind the pack much is said about Cruden - a very average flyhalf - but what about the replacement of the other "rugby geriatrics"  like Nonu and even Corry Jane and Conrad Smith at 30+  years of age.    As per normal in New Zealand there are some good talent coming through - but to judge what is coming through from the younger generation of players - you have to look ar Super 15 level performances.  

That is where there are signs of future problems.   The top six teams on the log contained three SA teams and two from New Zealand.    The situation is going backwards insofar as New Zealand is concerned.   A few years ago there would have been at least  three and even four New Zealand teams in the top 6 teams - now they are down to 2 - and signs are not good as to future competitiveness on that level.   OK - the Chiefs won the trophy - but the acrual performances were influenced by extraneous factors as well - so will they repeat their win next year?   I think not - since the Chiefs will have to travel next year and play the stronger SA reams in SA and not at home - and they are bound to lose in such an event.   They are the best New Zealnd have - and they are not going to have an easy ride next year.

Then we have the New Zealand Under 20 team this year - as expected showed some good backline play and some cardboard forward play - a bad sign for the future.

Why don't many people in New Zealand ever find anything wrong or any danger signs for the future.   Those who do make valuable contributions to this site and they see things comprehensively.    The rest are the donkey thinkers with bird brains that discredit the image of New Zealand rugby fans.   Some say the New Zealand Rugby forums - where things are discussed are not up to standard and the reason is obvious.  

Members here think differently on the issue and criticize things in SA Rugby to such an extent that we are aoften called to order by New Zealand Members when we go overboard in that regard - in New Zealand it is a mortal sin to even rhink about criticism.   Self-satisfaction without objectivity and sound future planning is normally disastrous and that is where posters like you should wake up and start becoming thinkers - not unthinking psyphofants.

Please get back to sound scientifically based issues - thn there is a sound basis for discussion - and we can then debate pertinent issues and not imaginary rubbish like the Broederbond. 

Clevermike, a nice analysis though slightly skewed. The reason that the NZ public don't see the danger signs that you think are there is because for a good century the AB's have had an outstanding winning record, sure there are cyclic periods where they are knocked off for a season but over the years there have always been players comin through.  You make frequent mention of average AB forward and back ages, but there is no guarentee that in 4 years at the next RWC those same players will be there, selection at the AB level is very cut throat, with very few exceptions (weepu & williams) under perform and your gone. One consistent thing on this forum by SA fans is the perceived forward superiority, which I think is a myth. The AB's have never feared the Bok forwards and have never backed down from confrontation, if they were so superior and laid a winning platform then you would be winning. You also mention the current U20 NZ team yes they finished 2nd, but you neglect to acknowledge that previously they had been unbeaten in 4 years, like I said cyclic. I know SA has 5 x registered players than NZ and you would think that with such a large pool, the AB's would be beaten more consistently, and  maybe Prof Noakes has not taken into account that NZ produces a greater number of talented rugby players even though they have a smaller pool which maybe why the AB's win consistently. Has Prof. noakes done any research in NZ about our rugby players?

 Well said Polyboy but you're banging your head against a brick wall with a supporter like Mike.

He ignores facts and the blindingly obvious! I actually didn't finish his latest diatribe as it's the same old boring crap.

polyboy

Very objective and nice response.   I may be over-negative about New Zealand players and the future developments insofar as their team is concerned.   I think they have outstanding backline players - but am really not impress by their forwards.  I do believe New Zealand can do better with younger players amongst their forwards - bearing in mind that the four mentioned by me are the only All Black forwards under the age of 32 years.   

There is one serious problem in SA Rugby and that is that they have kicked out any idae about effective backline play and introduced 10 man rugby that could have been effective 10 years ago - but is really a serious drawback at present.    The All Blacks may not fear the Springbok forwards - but even this year struggled badly against them and give away penalties in the process.   Where they really beat the Sprinfboks was in backline play - not in forward play.  

The Super series next year will be very interesting and I am really looking forward to that one.  I personally think that it would indicate which players are really the performers that should be in the national teams.   

By the way - is the reason for the retention of Weepu in the team - purely on the basis that he can lead the haka??????? LOL

Heh, heh, you may be right about Weepu...he has passed his use by date.  Enjoyed the Bok/England game, probably the game that sold me on the rise of Eztebeth...had a pretty good game...I think he's the new prototype bok forward having both close quarter and open field skills with a good set of lungs. Close score and hard fought but still the Bok had the more measure of control and composure to win it.  I think the AB's will be in for a torrid match.