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3081 Topic: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
Beeno1

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Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 12:38:13

RYAN VREDE of keo, in London, reports Heyneke Meyer has given Pat Lambie the directive to stand flatter and attack more with ball in hand in a bid to get the best out of him.

There were widespread cries of relief when Lambie was installed at pivot ahead of Morne Steyn for the first Test of the tour against Ireland and then given the backing of his coach through three Tests. However, it was also lamented that Lambie would have to temper his natural attacking instincts to suit the Springboks’ pragmatic method.

Lambie attempted to play that down prior to the Lansdowne Road Test, saying that there was a flawed perception of him as a running flyhalf, arguing that his game was more rounded than that. However, on the evidence of what he has produced tactically in the last fortnight, his kicking game is certainly more work in progress than it is finished article.

Lambie has proven to be potent when taking on the defensive line himself or creating opportunities for his outside backs and this is what Meyer hopes to see more of against England at Twickenham on Saturday.

It’s a huge ask, there’s this perception that when you put a young player like Pat in he is immediately going to be a world beater. That doesn’t happen at this level. The defences are too well organised,’ he said. (Please note snapter and Mike etc)

But I’ve had a long one on one with him and told him to play his natural game. He has always been a guy that takes on the line and plays really flat. He played too deep in Dublin and Edinburgh. I’ve said to him I want more on attack, I want him to get the backline going. Its a test for Pat going forward, but I really need a good performance from him on Saturday.’ (So much for all those blaming Meyer for Lambie' style of play 0 -more red faces!!!! )

Meyer’s instructions to Lambie and the inclusion of Elton Janjties ahead of Morne Steyn (The anti Meyer anti Morne anti group thought Meyer would start with Morne - hahahahaha how they get confounded each week!!!) on the bench suggests the Springboks will seek to keep the ball in hand far more than they have for most of this season. Certainly privately the coaching staff feeling there are a couple of defensive vulnerabilities in the England backline, particularly at flyhalf, where Toby Flood has been exposed against elite opposition. (I wa wondering whether they would run more)

With the forecast for cold but clear conditions at kick-off, the Springboks will be assisted in their cause to ‘play’ more. However, it would be wrong to expect an expansive and open approach from the tourists, who will still be very cautious in their territory, taking minimal risks but then looking to be more adventurous deeper in England’s half.

It is of course a tactical path that has worked well for them at the venue in recent history, with 2008′s 42-6 win achieved in this manner. Peter de Villiers picked an abrasive pack that day and they gave a mediocre backline an excellent platform from which to test their hosts. This mirrors the situation the Springboks find themselves in at present, with a highly cohesive and powerful pack attempting to service a backline that has yet to inspire.

Perhaps it will come on Saturday, with Lambie tasked with playing a central role in any such demolition.

I think the backs must contribute more and hope we see some class work from them. Maybe Pienaar can also be  a bit more dynamic.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 13:31:31

the speed of the ruck ball really needs to quicken a lot. to much slow ball is being generated and to much ball is kept in front. lambie and co can produce some magic but not having great ball to work with all since the irish game may take the backline a while to get that mental sharpness.

 

still nice to see the mentality just hope lambie is allowed to play it as he sees it


mozart

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 14:16:28

I said on another string that I believed that this was more a case of Lambie trying to be a test flyhalf, than Meyer restricting him. Greeted with scepticism by the Meyer bashers. But here we have Lambie himself confirming that:

Lambie attempted to play that down prior to the Lansdowne Road Test, saying that there was a flawed perception of him as a running flyhalf, arguing that his game was more rounded than that

 

What the critics failed to grasp is the young players themselve[removed]pect test rugby to be different....to punish mistakes, and make running more difficult. This caution is understandable, particularly in our rugby culture, which is so traditional and conservative. So I never expected Lambie to hit the deck running.

 

The situation is a little different for Goosen who arrived as a Super Nova.....compared to Cooper as an attacking talent. He was expected to run, all by himself if necessary....he also hasn't had the benefit of a few S15 seasons. But even Goosen managed just one break in his two matches.

 

This is and isn't Meyer's fault. It isn't his direct fault that Lambie hasn't run effectively. He never told Lambie not to run....it appears more the opposite. But he has failed to bring the level of coaching to our running game, that he has brought to our game at the rucks and our defence. We need more of the kind of move that broke Habana free against NZ.....better running lines, more use of the offside wing, double wings, more running toward space by our centres.

 

There are few coaches who can really provide that at test level.....our current backline coach seems behind even the maligned [removed] Muir in this regard.


Saffex

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 14:39:31

This is just Meyer speaking complete crap. My guess is that he has been taken to task for his crap kick and chase gameplan and has now instructed Lambie to play his natural game given how ineffective he has been playing the Morne role.

This is further confirmed in my opinion by Jantjies replacing Morne on the bench. Meyer suddenly is waking up to the fact that rugby tests against the big boys will not be won by kicking the ball away aimlessly.

Sadly Meyers plan for a more attacking game is flawed by his selection of Steenkamp and Kruger in the forwards. We will struggle to achieve parity with this England pack.

Then of course we have wee de Jongh sitting at 13 who will be hopelessly exposed in the physicality department against Tuilangi


clevermike

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 15:04:13

Mozart - wrong here - I am afraid.   There is no way that Lambie changed his natural game withiut instruction from the coach.   That would be detrimental to his career and he won't do it on his own.   I base my argument on Meyer's comments before picking Lambi as flyhalf.  He said that he was not satisfied with Lambie's kicking game - and after the CC semi-final said that Lambie's kicking game has improved and he was now sartsified with that.   If that was not what Meyer had in mind - why all the talk about the kicking game and zero about other aspects of Lambie's performance.

Lambie now got his permission to play a different game on Saturday - and even the heading of the article gave the whole story away - "Meyer gives Lambie more freedom".   If that does not implay geiving permission for a change - what else would it mean?        


clevermike

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 15:12:14

A girl

Jantjies will not be allowed on the field of play - despite his selection as a bench player.   He will only come on if Lambie is forced to leave due to injury.   Jantjies was disastrous in the Soweto test and he is too big a liability to have in the national side. 

He was picked for quota purposes - not at all performance-related capacity.   If the selection was based on performances - he would not be anywhere near the squad.

 


Ceradyne

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Posts: 3369
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 15:12:26

Did Heyneke Meyer actually say: "I have given Lambie more freedom", or did the esteemed reporter put that spin on his article to attract some attention? Just asking.


carpetmuncher

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Posts: 1396
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 15:14:21

meyer is the master of the overcoaching manual as he plan set plays to the tee and players are forced to do rather than think. we will see if he practices what he preaches. we know lambie can play the game its up to meyer and the forwards to give him that chance to prove himself


Ceradyne

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 15:34:59

"meyer is the master of the overcoaching manual as he plan set plays to the tee and players are forced to do rather than think."

 

You know that for a fact? Source?

 

When Derick Hougaard got back to the Bulls after the 2003 RWC, HM was the one who was upset over what happened to Derick. There was an article in Rapport where he heavily critcised the RWC coaching staff. I can clearly remember him saying something like: "The young player who could play with freedom and use his own discretion to dictate a game was gone completely. We had to start all over to get him back to that again."


mozart

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 16:41:03

Those who doubt Lambie is not capable of playing a totally conservative game, without Meyer forcing him to do so, need only look at the CC final.

 

As for the heading....totally deceptive.... a reporter's spin to acheive the ends he was looking for. It happens all the time.


Saffex

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 17:02:01

Moffie funny that you seem to be alone in thinking Lambie was not playing under Meyers instruction - wonder why that is??

Lambie is naturally an attacking player, everyone knows that. He has not been playing attacking rugby - I wonder why??


mozart

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 17:21:02

Then wonder why he didn't in the CC final.....De Fattie.


clevermike

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 18:43:15

Mozart

You constantly talk about the CC - Fina as if there were no attacking moves by the Sharks.   There were quiite a number - one where Pietesen ran straight over De Jongh - but none of the moves let to tries.  thats maybe why you say there was no backline attacking play - there was and the game of Lambie was not one-dimensional.

What you missed is that the WP forwards ultimately got the upper hand in the game and that was the main reason for the win by them.    It ws not th backline that was the main problem of the Sharks.

I think Lambie is bound to play with more freedon - but whether it will work is not clear since there are other questions to be dealt with.   Will De Villiers still crashball all the time? Will De Jongh knock on balls or lose them in tackle situation as is his usual?  Will the balls ever reach the wings - especially since De Villiers played crashball all the time and De Jongh really is a poor ball distributor?  What role will the full back play in the whole system of play?

The effectiveness of attacking backline play will be influenced by the ability of the backline to function properly as an attacking unit -  I think it will have minimal success becaue there are  just not enough player development to make it work.-


clevermike

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 18:55:29

Ceradyne

Living in England I suppose you can read and undestand the English language.  Did you read the article at all?  There is a clear quotation as to Meyer's instruction to Lambie.   The heading was a deduction from what happened in the previous two tests - where Lambie play the Morne Steyn type of game - obviously based on previous directives from Meyer - and what he has been directed to do on Saturday.   

If Meyer's instructions are not followed to the tee - the Hougaard treatment is inevitable.


Saffex

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Posts: 9472
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 19:06:45

Ah so are you saying that Lambie just kicked it all CC final - dont just bull[removed] your way through things you fool. We all know Lambie is an attacking rugby player - wake up man, you are starting to make a fool of yourself


Ceradyne

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Posts: 3369
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 19:25:05

Spin Mikey, spin. You have slipped up with the citing story and now you are slipping up here as well. Let's have a look:

 

1. "There is a clear quotation as to Meter's instruction to Lambie."

I trust that you meant to say Meyer and not Meter. Be that as it may. The term "instruction" was used by Ryan Vrede. Meyer said "I have told him....." and "..I want him to......" If you want to interpret it as an hard and fast instruction with a hidden ultimatum, then so be it.

 

2. "The heading was a defuction from what happened in the previous two tests - where Lambir play the Morne Steyn type of game - obviously based on previous directives from Meyer - and what he has been directed to do on Saturday.   "

Once again, I trust that you have meant it to be Lambie and not Lambir, but so be it. The esteemed Ryan Vrede has made a number of his own assumptions in the article, and you have chosen to jump into the fire with him.

 

3. "If Meyer's instructions are not followed to the tee - the Hougaard treatment is inevitable."

Another assumption, this time your won. You know what is said about assumption, don't you?

 

Let me repeat HM's remarks, according to Vrede, just to prove that I have read it:

"‘It’s a huge ask, there’s this perception that when you put a young player like Pat in he is immediately going to be a world beater. That doesn’t happen at this level. The defences are too well organised,’ he said. (Please note snapter and Mike etc)

But I’ve had a long one on one with him and told him to play his natural game. He has always been a guy that takes on the line and plays really flat. He played too deep in Dublin and Edinburgh. I’ve said to him I want more on attack, I want him to get the backline going. Its a test for Pat going forward, but I really need a good performance from him on Saturday.’"

 

If you tell a player to go out and play his natural game, it does not sound anything like a rigid, no holds barred instruction to me. The way I see it, it actually means something like: "Go out and play the game the way you see it unfold and give us more on attack and get the back-line going.

 


clevermike

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 21:28:11

Ceradyne

Sorry about the typing errors.    Just one suggestion.   If you think that Meyer did not instruct how to play in the Irish and Scottish tests - you must be totally mixed up.   Lambie played the exact similar game against BOTH Ireland and Scotland.   If Meyer was unhappy with the way Lambie played against the Irish - why no "long talk" before the Scottish game?   Why now?

I can tell you outright - Meyer told Lambie to stand deep in the pocket and what he expected from him in both the most recent tests.   

The resuls were not satisfactory and I believe that was the reason why there suddenly was a "long talk" with Lambie.  

 


Ceradyne

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Posts: 3369
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 22:02:14

And in this corner, ladies and gentleman, we have the one and only Siener van Rensburg.........


Sharkbok

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 22:25:45

The Mindless up and unders that Lambie was doing against Scotland was not his natural game. I have watched over 30 games with Lambie, and never seen him do these weak kicks- gain 10 metres and lose possesion.

In the semi against the Bulls it was smart chip over the tops, kicking for the corners, varying kicking with running. A bit like Dan Carter- not our old friend Moaning Morne

I think Meyer has told Lambie- " Hey buddie dont listen to me, go out and play your natural game- and after the game we shall call this the game plan"


mozart

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 22:48:07

Disagree....Lambie described his game as more balanced. And that's about as I see it....he is not, and never will be a great runner from 10 channel. In fact the lunatic fringe might be dismeyered to see how much like Morne he looks in a few more years.

 

I repeat, I see very little difference in his CC final and his displays against Scotland and Ireland.

 


Saffex

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 22:55:48

Man Moffie you are clueless.......Lambie is a running 10 end of......only you will tell us otherwise.......as ignorant as ever.

Lambie like Morne - what an insult


mozart

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 22, 2012, 23:54:34

By his own words Lambie is not a running flyhalf, just like Pienaar said he was not a flyhalf despite your claims to the contrary....and Taute wants to be a fullback, despite the fact that you haveannointed him as our 13. Perhaps you should just listen to what the players say about their own games.


sasuke uchiha

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Posts: 5864
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 04:33:35

food for thoguht, but theres a difference between what people say to the cameras and other media releated scenarios, then what they really think and say behind the scenes.

meyer has stated many times that the main reason lambie was on the bench for most of the Boks games was because he thought lambies tactical kicking game was poor.
on the EOYT lambie has had the opportunity to play in the starting XV, so it is only natural for him to say that hes not really an attacking rugby player, when we all know damn well that he is. lambies not stupid, hes just feeding meyer what meyer wants to hear, its not ego thing, but meyer will see it as lambie listening to his coach and trying to better himself as a player, which in the mong run will not hurt lambies future selection chances.

IMO meyeres meddling with lambies game is going to hurt lambie in the long run, its crazyt but lambie thrived under PDV and has beenvery stagnant IMO in 2012.

and one other thing, what players achieve in the CC and for that matter the ITM meand fudge all IMO, both are lower forms competition and by all rights the stars from both countries should always thrive in that lower tier competiton.
 


carpetmuncher

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Posts: 1396
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 08:48:16

@ceradyne i am not a liberty so say how i know but i for one have spoken to some insiders and people that know meyer.

 

in terms of the derick remark lets be fair the english game tends to breed even more robotic players than what we use to do so it does not surpirse me at all


Ceradyne

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 11:23:35

So, what are we saying? Ignore everything and listen to those who have undisclosed "inside information"...............


Saffex

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 12:19:29

Moffie you really are thick! He is an all round player because he is adept at kicking and attacking. Which is what all the good flyhalves are - Carter, Cooper, Cruden, Goosen, Lambie, Jantjies and the likes. They do it all and are best described as attacking players with good boots.

Morne is not an attacking flyhalf, he is a kicking flyhalf - get it???????


Beeno1

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 15:22:20

saSUE Lambie has been more damaged by the sharks than anything Meyer can have done. What is needed now is what Hougaard is insisting upon. Settle down in a position and specialise - can only be very good for both players. Ditto Taute.

What is pleasing is that they are all moving in the right direction.

 


mozart

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 15:38:23

Well said Hasbeen....Meyer isn't the guy who moved Hougaard to the wing, Lambie to fullback and Taute to 13. But he seems bound to keep Lambie at 10 , get Taute to 15 where he belongs, and Hougaard himself wants another crack at 9. Good stuff.

 

The comments you made above about how Meyer, a patently sincere man, is now  being accused of lying.....when the truth is Lambie has been naturally conservative....hit the hypocrisy on the head.


carpetmuncher

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Posts: 1396
RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 16:23:25

@ceradyne i am sorry i dont understand your post as you asked me how i know this and i answered it so i dont understand where you point of lets ignore everything and listen inside information ??? i am sorry your out of context.

 

the sharks only moved lambie around due to the fact they played him where the relevant SA rugby coaches wanted him to play. he started out at 10 but in the pdv era he was moved to play at 15. its the same cancer that hogged the likes of pienaar, franna steyn and co. there is still some pundits that are hell bent on franna playing 15 due to his boot.

 

its great to see that players are asking to get picked in one area only. will really help them in the long run more

 

 


clevermike

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 17:28:45

Mozart

I respectfully disagree with you on the issue of the CC Final and th tests against ireland and Sctoland.   Insoar as Lambie is concerned - he stood nearer to the action in the CC Ginal and he regularly tried to improve the game by passing quickly and effectively.   In the tests he stood way bacj in the poccket and did not play the same passing game - even when he did pass the ball it caused problems for De Villiers that was largely forced into playing crashball.   That is a natural result of the Morne Steyn and Jantjies way of playing - leaving the enxt recipient in a bad situiation.  

To my surprise Lambie did exactly the same in the two tests mentioned - and the question remains why - since even Meyer said it is not his natural game.

I have no problems with Meyer's sincerity or persoinal conduct - where I do have a problem is certain aspect of his coaching.   I have never attacked Meyer's sincerity - but have frequently said he is makinf mistakes in his job - there is a huge difference in that.

 


Saffex

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 17:41:13

Ah so if Meyer was such a nice guy and knew that Hougaard was a 9 and wanted to play there then why play him on the wing. If it was not Meyer that moved him to wing, then who was it as he has been playing 9 for the Bulls.

Same can be said of Taute, if Meyer knows Taute wants to play 15, then why play him at 13 - does good old Meyer not have the power to play these guys where he wants them to play. Next you will be telling us that where they play for the provinces dictates where they play at test level.

Its all complete bull[removed]. Fact is Hougaard has played most of his rugby this year at 9, Taute has played 50/50 centre and fullback, Lambie probably 50/50 flyhalf and fullback.

What Meyer needs to do if he had any substance, is work out where he wants these players to play, which is pretty obvious in itself and then let them settle in those positions and insist/request that their respective provinces do the same.

Only a fool would conclude otherwise in respect of these players positions, it so obvious its scary. We are talking youngsters here so nothing is given, but judged on potential the following is obvious. If we want Lambie, Taute, Hougaard and Goosen in the starting Bok backline then they must play in the following positions:

Lambie - 15

Taute - 13

Goosen - 10

Hougaard 9

These positions happen to be their best positions anyway and represent their best chance of starting for the Boks - its so bloody obvious as I keep saying


mozart

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 18:17:00

Back old Swami comes like a bad smell to the same old points. Let me help:

If Hougaard wasn't playing on the wing, he wouldn't be playing at all. Pienaar is at this juncture far more reliable.

 

Secondly after failing miserably at centre against NZ, Taute himself said he wants to play fullback. Meyer, no doubt rattled by his awful display against NZ, concurs.

 

Thirdly, nobody is disputing that Goosen is a great talent, but in case you haven't noticed, he has been injured most of the year and isn't available now.

 

Fourthly Lambie desperately wants to be playing flyhalf,  and after Jantjies, who is already slipping from your frequent rants,  tanked against NZ....Lambie is seen as the alternative to Goosen. And given Goosen's fragility and his deer in the headlights look against NZ....that's a wise precaution.

 

There you go Swami, now you can stuff your face with another pastry.

 

 


Saffex

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 18:59:16

Moffie, you really are an ignorant twit aren't you?

The crap you bang on about has stuff all to do with reality and everything to do with your warped perception of reality.

Taute never failed miserably against NZ, you are the only stupid fool who asserts as much. He was no worse than Habana and Jean that day. Fact is he was damn good against Oz and just as good against Ireland - both FACTS. He NEVER said he wanted to play 15, he said he would prefer to be considered there for the Stormers as he saw 15 as his only realistic chance of starting for the Stormers. Meyer said he had his best game at 13 for the Boks against Ireland, if he said that why would he want him at 15? Meyer has [removed]ed up big time by playing de Jongh ahead of him against Tuilangi - pure madness. I'd expect this kind of stupid call from a clown like you but not a test coach.

Goosen is new on the block, hardly had enough time to declare him an injury prone player now is it?

Yes Goosen is injured but Jantjies is about. We need Lambie to specialise at 15 for the very reason I mentioned in my post above, which of course you are too stupid to comprehend.

As for Hougaard on the wing, that will go down as anothet Meyer [removed] up. Pienaar is a good 9, but Hougaard is far better

 

 


mozart

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 19:42:33

No what Taute never said was anything along the lines of : "he said he would prefer to be considered there for the Stormers as he saw 15 as his only realistic chance of starting for the Stormers." 

 

That's your convenient interpretation....the player simply stated he wanted to play fullback. What in[removed]bent Bok centre would make a defeatist comment like he had no chance of playing Stormers centre.

 

Perhaps you can get your new found hero, Jal, who thinks Etzebeth is a thug , to help you. I regard you two as about morally equivalent and equally thick .


clevermike

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RE: Meyer gives Lambie more freedom
November 23, 2012, 19:49:10

A girl

Sorry - but I have to differ from you here.   What you said Taute said in that interview is vasrly different from what he actually said.   The following is actually crap:-

"He NEVER said he wanted to play 15, he said he would prefer to be considered there for the Stormers as he saw 15 as his only realistic chance of starting for the Stormers."   The highlighted part is the crap portion.   Taute in fact gave substantial reasons why he preferred to play at full back and he actuually implied that the center  poition is negatively affecting what he wants to achieve in playing of rugby.  That is why when  he played full back for the Lions he performed better than at center. 

I do not really think that Taute is an option at center in future.   He was very average in the games he played for the Springboks and that is a fact.   If he played top class rugby in those games - it would negate  his reasons for wanting to play at full back.

I think the ultimate  choice where he prefer to play should be the determinaing factor here - since if he is played out of position he would not perform as he himself would like to see and it would damge his playing career.   Frankly - I do not see why you insist on your view that Taute should play at center - while the player himself prefer otherwise.

The other issue is - what has a half-baked player like Jantjies to do with the issue.   Jantjies is definitely not Springbok material - he is the latest embodiment of Earl Rose.   I think that Goosen and Lambie are the Springbok flyhalf cover and that this is likely to be Jantjies last tour with the Springboks - he just is not up to standard and  acceptable as a Springbok flyhalf.   .

 


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