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2994 Topic: I am not too small insists De Jongh
Beeno1

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I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 12:46:45

Ex Supersport

Springbok centre Juan de Jongh is eager to prove that he isn't too small for test rugby when he starts against Scotland in Edinburgh on Saturday.

Many pundits have questioned the 1.75m and 85kg centre's size for international rugby but the 24-year-old is eager to prove his critics wrong.

"Everyone has an opinion, but this week I have a chance to prove something to people who think I am too small," he told the Beeld website.

"You get opportunities in life and this one is huge. I have to be at my best to prove all the people who believe I shouldn't be there, wrong."

De Jongh will on Saturday start a test for the first time in the Heyneke Meyer era after missing out to Jaco Taute(who is 10kg bigger than De Jongh) in recent tests.

The perception that coach Meyer only prefers big players also doesn't bother the Western Province star, who dazzled with his game-changing try in the Currie Cup final against the Sharks in Durban.

"It wasn't frustrating to be on the periphery of the team because I always knew where I stood with Heyneke. For me it's just important to work hard, because if you want to keep playing for the Boks, you have to make sure you possess all the qualities a coach looks for."

The test at Murrayfield kicks off at 16:30 (SA time) on Saturday.

Augurs well when a player is highly motivated and de Jongh knows this is very important for him. Lets see some sparkle Juan! Please also try and get in some effective passes.


clevermike

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 15:18:44

I thought that De Jongh was slightly heavier at 87 kgs.  1,75 and 84 kgs is very small for an international rugby player - normally size-wise the smaller players play at scrumhalf - not in the midfiield.   In essence midfield players nowadays way upward of 95 kgs not 85 as is the case here.

I am not surprised that he is not penetrative enough and unale to attack the gain line with those stats in mind.   I have noticed many times in Super 15 that De Jongh tries to attack the gain line and is then tackled with ease  and the ball taken away from him.    A player like him can get away from the problem if he is a slippery player - but De Jongh does not fall in that categort.   On the wing in particular slippery customers like Breyton Paulse can get away with it - but in center position that is very unlikely.

Some smaller players have excellent ball sense and  very clever players that have the ability to outfox their much bigger opponents - but I have never noticed that De Jongh in fact has that capacity.   Smaller players can get away with it - but they also need real strengfh - but that would need at least another 6 extra kilos in muscles.   

Just as a comparison - Paul Jordan is  1,80 and 95 kgs.   In other words 5 cms   talller and 11kgs heavier than De Jongh.  That makes it easier for Jordaan as he is physically  much stronger than De Jongh and hence more assertive in all aspects of the game. 

Where I do give him credit is that he is a good defender - tackling players way above his weight.   De Jongh says he wants to seize the opportunity to prove himself - he desperately needs to do so - because if he does not - he won't see any Springbok team again.   .   

Personally I cannot really see much of a future for De Jongh at center - but will watch him with interest on Saturday.

 

  


Beeno1

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 16:17:21

Mike ho w would you rate de jongh's chances on the wing. He is pretty quick, good defence and a steps well. A winger doesnt  have to have the same degree of paassing ability.  He has the abilty to beat a man

Yes indeed his perfromance along with that of Guthro and a possible outing at 15 by Taute will add interest to the game.


Saffex

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 16:21:00

Playing against Scotland is hardly a test now is it?

And Taute weighs 100kg, so is more than 10kg's heavier than wee de Jongh

 


mozart

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 17:10:31

Ja, but de Jongh wouldn't have missed Dagg


Saffex

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 17:32:45

So how do you account for those instances this year where players have run straight over de Jongh?


Rugby107

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 17:45:58

So he wouldn't have missed that tackle on Dagg? You mean like he didn't miss that tackle on JP in the currie cup final. Didn't lead to a try, but he still missed a open field tackle???

 

Anyway let's hope he does well, if Meyer sees that a smaller player can do well then he will definitely give the" bigger than dejong" Jordaan a chance next year.


mozart

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 17:47:54

Straight over was not the case here. Taute was on his heels ....as he was later when he contributed to the Smith try. Dagg ran onto him, stopped and jinked to his right.....leaving your man Taute eating sod. Juan would have been moving forward, cutting down space as any good centre should.


Rugby107

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 17:54:06

Beeno , I actually always thought dejong will be a very good wing. He is faster than 99% of the centres and some wings, steps very well and tackles very well( my comment about him missing a tackle, is just to point out that players miss tackles, I mean Doppies ran straight over him in last years currie cup semi) Denton ran straight over mCCaw..... its  going to happen

 

 
Give him ball out wide with space and he can hurt teams.
 
 


Saffex

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 18:01:33

No old fart, Dagg beats many a player through skill. He beat Taute fair and square as he will de Jongh on another day - its called rugby you dimwit.

de Jongh is a liability defensively in traffic, he is fine when it comes to open field tackles as technically he is good in the tackle. Technique plays little part in traffic - bulk counts here and hence the questions marks against him.

Same applies on attack in trafic - the wee man cant impose himself physically


clevermike

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 18:31:14

Beeno

To answer you straight out - I think he would do much better on wing than in a center position.   In the first instance his passing game - which is relatively poor - would not be that important.    The problem with him at center is much more difficult - both in attack and on defence.   However, at wing he woulld have to compete for the position with other estblished wings. 

Looking at the Stormers - would he be able to compete for selection with Habana, Van den Heerver and Aplon?   Don't think so - but he would do better in that position.   Problem is centers are there to create space for other players by attacking the gain line and off-load balls successfully in tackle situations - have never seen that ability in his case.

I am not going to get involved with arguments about his defence - there seem to be differences on that score as well.   From what I could gather - he does have some difficulties in tackling heavier players.

De Jongh to my mind would be a very good sevens player = he has speed and can make open-field tackles.   In the 15 man game he has too many liabilities to make him a real center.  . 


clevermike

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 18:49:24

Mozart

You are arguing and stating as a fact that De Jongh would not have missed that tackle as was missed by Taute.  Dagg is a top international full back - probably the best in the World at present.   I do not think it is a disgrace if somebody miss a tackle under such cir[removed]stances.    It should not happen - but it does and Taute is not the only person that missed a Dagg tackle.

The question as to De Jongh naking that tackle is really academic - nobody can say he definitely would have made the tackle.   As mentioned by other conributors De Jongh has missed crucial tackles on much lower level than in the test arena - so it is really not a foregone conclusion that he would have made the tackle 

I would also like to remind you of another potential tackle he never even tried to make.   In the game at Newlands - played in very wet conditions - Michalak made a tactical kick from just outside his 22.  The kick was  followed up by Jordaan - with De Jongh running just about 2 meters behind him.   He did not even make an attampt to tackle Jordaan and Aplon followed up to try and effect the tackle - the latter was outpaced and Jordaan scored a try.   Should at least have tried to catch Jordaan over 50 meters - but did not  

I really think De Jongh has many more problems in other facets of the game than in defence and I doubt whether he would make the grade on Saturday'


sasuke uchiha

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 15, 2012, 21:46:58

smaller players will always struggle to tackle their bigger opponents, its just common fact, but good technique and being in the right position defnsively can helpout big time. good vision and timing to cut the opponents time of building momentum and what have u, something that JDV does very well and something that taute does not, but exepreience helps and every little biut of gametime will soon see taute right up there IMO.

i dont mind de jong, but hes not my first choice for the 13, but the synergy with JDV and his CC form will add tremendous value to the Boks and given that its only the scots, its a great chance for de jong to prove himself.


Sharkbok

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 03:08:15

 Wee dejong tackles well for his size. He is lighter than I am. Maybe it is time to get my Boots out again...


Beeno1

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 09:54:51

The results of a poll on this question ex keo:

Is Juan de Jongh too small to play Test rugby?

Total Votes: 225

So the overwhelming majority say no.

Somehow with De jongh I really feel that his main problem actually is his ability to create for others and mainly its his distribution. Personally I do not like 87 kg centers and they are in fact as rare as hens teeth at test level.

However I am sure that we are all, as reasonable folk (hahahahaha),  open to being convinced and his game against Scotland and perhaps England should tell us the answer. De Jongh has the ability to break a line and somehow Jean and others need to get him into space.

England look to have a very capble backline for once- although I am judging this by their match against a weak Fiji side. How they go against Oz will be telling.

Cometh the hour cometh the man Sharkbok. Let us know when you take the field. Not as a flasher I hope!


kingcorn

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 12:01:33

 Modern centers now a days are tanks and all way more 95+ kg. With the game being so defencive a player really need to be able to stand up their opposite player. Conrad Smith who is 1.87 and weighs in at 97 kg is considered small for an allblack center. If you look at the likes of Nonu and Sonny Bill, Jamy Roberts. All of whom are direct and physical. The only players of the modern game with smaller size that punched well above their weights were Brian O and Matt Gitua, but both had and exceptional eye for the gap, brave in defense and fantastic passing game. De Jongh doesnt have a passing game neither a good off load, when he does the break the line he hardly finds his players on his outside and often runs away from his support. 

He reminds me a lot of AD Jacobs who was a fantastic attacking players but never the passing game nor the defensive game. Both these players bring players to ground by doen't stop the ball and players can quite easily off load in the tackle. 


mozart

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 14:50:42

Sorry Mike at my age I can only retain so much. All I recall is Juan outplaying Jordaan.....cutting down Sharks without any of the problems you and Corn are aluding to. Then I remember him beating Coetzee for acceleration, smacking Daniel with a handoff and stepping Mvovo as if he was a road pylon.....and winning the Currie Cup. Can you remember that?


Beeno1

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 15:02:38

MOz rugby 107 and I think maybe de Jongh would make a good wing? 


clevermike

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 15:31:39

Mozart

I watched the final a couple of times - he did not beat Jordaan once in attacking play - Jordaan beat him by a few line breaks and as a result of one of them Pietersen ran over him.   The two things De Jongh did that stood out was the try he scored - running at an angle away from the opposing backline players and the one tackle on Jordaan.  The latter was very early and before Jordaan had the ball under control.   He did not really tackle Jordaan -  he caused a knock on in the process.   If it was a second later and Jordaan had the ball properly under control there would have been a try under the posts - because he did not make an effective tackle (Jordan was on his feet and going forward - while De Jongh laid on the grass two meters past him) and since there was an overlap - the likely result would have been a try under the posts.   Timing was right - the tackle a joke... 

I have seen all the rest of the problems I highlighted with this guy repeatedly in Super 15 this year - watch out it will happen against the Scots again on Saturday.


mozart

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 15:34:07

Hasbeen, I think 13 is his best position. On the wing he will be targeted, as Breyton was, with high balls. I also think he is more accelerative, than a top speed express.

 

Every player has weaknesses. I have as much confidence in Juan (and for that matter in Aplon) in making a key open field tackle....as I have in any Bok. Juan's weakness, because he goes low, is preventing the offload. That's a much bigger issue at 12. I would never play him at 12. At 13, preventing a clean outside break is the crucial defensive need and he satisfies that requirement. The only bad one I ever saw him miss was on JP in the S15 semi.

 

The power channels in rugby are 10 and 12. Jean has done a great job over the years of making brilliant out wide tackles, like the one on Mvovo in the same semi....and still handling the likes of Nonu through the power channel. A far better defender than he gets credit for. Juan couldn't do that.

 

What worries me is whether Goosen or Lambie can do that in 10 channel. Goosen looks a bit feeble in the tackle and Lambie's tackling style is a dead duplicate of Juan de Jongh's.


mozart

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 15:41:49

Balls Mike. The tackling stats showed deJongh never missed one tackle in the S15 final.....the missed tackle on JP you alude to, was in the S15 semi.....you really are a b.s. artist.


clevermike

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 15:48:36

Mozart

Nobody argued about De Jongh's tackling ability - I think he is despite his size a good defender.   It is the rest of his play which is not up to standard.  I still think he should concentrate on the Sevens game - that would suit him much better than the 15 game.

I think that in Super 15 he is going to repeat what he did this year and by next June he will not even be in the squad.   There was one aspect that I would like to remind you of - when Du Plessis played art 13 for WP the backline functioned better and had more potency than when De Jongh was in that position.


clevermike

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 16:05:05

Mozart

With respect - go and watch the game again.   The Pietersen incident was when Joraan went outside of Pietersen and gained about 20 meters - he then passed the ball back to Pietersen - this move was similar to the one where Jordaan scored that brilliant try against the Reds.   In the process De Jongh was run over by Pietersen.   The other incident was exactly as I described it.   You can look at it again.  

I can remember two other incidents where Jordaan effectively made a line break and off-loaded the ball in the proocess when De Jongh made a feeble tackle on him - am using with respect your decription of Goosen tackle  of Whitelock here as an example..   As a result the movements went further forward and was stopped by other defenders.

You still dont believe that it was the weak Stormer forwards (especially the props) that really was the key to the win by WP?     Anyway that try was a result of an unexpected clever move by Catrakilis and unexpected poor defence by Daniel.    Against the rest of the game  in play against his opposing backline players -he was harmless as per normal.   


mozart

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RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 16:38:28

Mike, with respect, I have more confidence in the official game stats. But let's see tomorrow.....one of us may be proven right.


Rugby107

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Posts: 88
RE: I am not too small insists De Jongh
November 16, 2012, 17:05:28

 Mozart, I don't know how they didn't pick that up in the stats,it definitely did happen. 

 

De jong should be fine against the scots on defence(he is a good defender), they don't pose a threat in that channel. If he puts up a flawless display against the AB's then its impressive.

 


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