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2959 Topic: The Meyer Game Plan
clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10276
The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 03:31:59

I am getting very suspicious about what is really happening  as to performance of players when they play entirely differently in provincial level and become robotic when they play for the Springboks.   Let me explain - taking the fly half position as an example.   

Any objective person will agree that in the tests played this year  Morne Steyn became worse and worse. His  goalkicking regressd constantly and eventually in the Dunedin test was down to 20%.     His strategic kicking game collapsed completely and it was a major tool for handing over possession.   His passing game - never his strong point in any event - became even worse,   Meyer said more than once he would coach his problems out of him - bu that never materiaiized.

Whilst persisting with Morne Steyn - persistent failures during games could have been solved by bringing on a replacement from the bench and by changing the goal kicker.    No such change was ever made umtil the tests in which Goosen was on the bench.   Insofar as  goalkicking was concerned - Steyn got worse as the tests went on - but Pienaar or another player never fot a chance to kick at goal.    Even if they got a 60% success rate it woiuld have bee a vast improvement on Steyn.

However, it was the other aspects of Steyn's performances that were even more problematic.   Never an acceptable attacking flyhalf - his performances under Meyer went from bad to worse.   The question can rightfully be asked - why this obvious decline?

Meyer eventually allowed Goosen about ten minutes of game time in the Dunedin test and there was a marked improvement  in the performance of the backline during that short period.   I think public opinion ultimately forced Meyer to change Morne Steyn and Goosen took over.   The game played by Goosen in Pretoria was like a breath of fresh air and I believe Goosen was playing his natural game in that test.  Within the next week something got to him and in the Soweto test Goosen - before his injury - was nervous and obviously under stress.   Jantjies came on to replace Goosen and he was disgracefully poor - so much so that his teammates effectively ignored his presence on the field of play.

The search was on for a new flyhalf and again it was obviious that Lambie was selected after two brilliant performances in the CC games.   Meyer then came out with a classic remark -  Lambie's kicking  game was not acceptable - hence his refusal to play him at flyhalf previously.  Be it as it may - Lambie was eventually selected at flyhalf - and there was a notable change in his style of play in evidence.   To his credit - it must be mentioned that Lambie had a resonable game on Saturday despite the fact that he really did not play his natural game.

The above summary brings me to one very real question - what is the required playing style Meyer requires from the Springbok flyhalf in particuar and from the backline in general?   I believe that Meyer is stuck on a speitic strategy that makes it impossible for the flyhalfs to function properly.

Let me explain - thoughout the tests played there are real indications that soemthing really problematic is in evidence.   The real reason for that is -

*   the fact that it is evident that Morne Steyn (Meyer's apparent favourite to play at fyhalf) showed a gradual decline in efficiency this year whilst being coached by Meyer;

*   The fact that in the cases of Goosen and Lambie there was a change in their normal/natural  playing styles and have noticed that they certainly were nervous and unsure of themsekves.  What is the cause of that change?

I think that Meyer insists on a very precise  playing style that is not working and he is trying to force that plan down the throats come hell or high water      Ia that plan workable?  I for one think it is not and is basically the result of a technical theory - requiring a removal of natuyal playing styles.  Steyn came nearest to achieving what Meter requires from the flyhalf - but that later went into a substantial decline on his part.

THE ABOVE ADDS TO MY SUBSTANTIAL RESERVATIONS AS TO WHETHER MEYER IS REALLY AN ACCEPTABLE COACH.  

       


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6474
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 03:53:26

 Why would anybody want to be Bok coach? Jake faced the same rubbish week in and week out...and then when we won the RWC all these moaners couldn't even enjoy the experience, they had to make up a poor opposition excuse. 


Lucid

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 194
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 04:37:04

I believe Meyer doesn't understand his role as a coach, its relatively hard to determine whether to seek for a new coach in the making. Its substantial that the realistic chances of getting another coach is far from it, i would say about 4 or 5 years by then. Its important to note that our players such as Goosen and Lambie are good fly halfs, they don't seem to play their own natural play style at a international level, that could indicate that Meyer indeed has something to do with that prior to the games we saw in the past. If a coach gets too controllable with players they will change as a player that can not play their natural play style like they did in the past, in this case i think that is where the problem is. Players should evolve on their own and they should develop fine, they have their own unique play style no need to change that as a coach.

He did mention tactical kicking is important at a international level, which is not necessarily true unless ur in the 22m line is where it should be taken seriously and other areas. Meyer needs to implement a game plan that will gain us good ball to work with, the set peices was not orginized correctly. Meyer is running out of options fast, he needs to make changes else we are in for a hard time against England.
 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10276
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 05:49:27

Mozart

There is a vast difference between what White was doing and what is at present being done by Meyer.   White had a selection policy that could hardly be questioned by ralistic observers and achieved goals by objective assessment, White knew when he had to bring in outside help - like in the case of Eddie Jones.   Meyer cjose the worst set of assistant coaches imaginable and there is no indication that he would get exprts to del with inefficiencies.

Matter of fact is that with rare exceptions - like the Pretoria test - there has been a serious declline in performances in tests since Meyer took over - both in individual performances and in the team performances in general.   The question is why?   

This is not answered by a comment like you made above  - so it in fact is unanswered.  Lucid gave a really onjective analysis on the issue - so lets hear your comments on the issue.  

 

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6474
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 06:34:50

I have already commented on Meyer's record ad nauseum. He inherited a team which lost the core of the players who carried us since 2004. Of those that remained injuries removed Bismarck, Schalk , Fransie and JP.....now Habana. He also had a flyhalf, Steyn who lost his kicking confidence during the S15. If only the latter point was resolved and Steyn kicked as he has in years past.....two tests could easily have flipped.

 

In light of all that, and the fact that we have been in with a good shot in every test we have played....I feel he has done better than many infer. I don't agree with some of his selections....but that's par for the course with almost any Bok coach.

 

As for the vast difference between Lambie in the CC and last Saturday, I don't see it. In fact his play in the CC final looked very similar to his play in the Irish test....largely a kicking performance.

 

So I don't find this line of reasoning persuasive. Changing to a more attacking style takes much more than just changing the flyhalf. I always thought so, and so I'm not surprised that things haven't altered much.


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 07:39:06
mozart

Status: Senior player
Posts: 1708
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 03:53:26

Why would anybody want to be Bok coach? Jake faced the same rubbish week in and week out...and then when we won the RWC all these moaners couldn't even enjoy the experience, they had to make up a poor opposition excuse.

Thank you, could not have said it better myself..

and noone noticed that this was the best result we have had against Ireland in 6 Years...


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 08:26:48

EK, we beat Ireland in 2010, a  full strength Ireland. This was a very bad Irish side.

Please do not compare Jake White to Heyneke Meyer, Jake was part of the Bok setup before he took charge. Heyneke is completely out of his depth. White built a team from scratch. Yes he made his mistakes( Jaco van der Westhuizen). But we played a good ballanced game when he was in charge.

People called for Whites head a few times, but personally you could always see that he had a gameplan that will let you beat anyone. he made the tough decisions. After Barry and Joubert destroyed teams in 2004, they were horrible in 2005, especially Joubert. The Test in Aus Joubert was falling off tackles left right and centre. Jake made the call, he selected a young Fourie and Devilliers at centre and they destroyed AUS in the home test.

 


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 08:27:00

dup


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 08:32:16

to be fair this irish team is as second string as they come. they dont have the depth not the talent but we managed to beat them by 4 points....i am not quite sure that the AB or even the wallies would have kept the scoreline so close. sorry to say but once again mike hits the nail on the head....

 

from what i heard as insider rumours is that old meyer handed out playbook bibles to every player to carefully explain how and where a player should be in regards to a phase play which is great to understand in a role understanding context but generally leeds to this type of robotic play. the boks were nothing short of lacklustre but that might just be a effect of a long season as well but there is nothing about the boks nor meyers one trick pony approach that wets the thighs of the majority of the SA rugby men.

 

that being said the irish should have taken it there first half perfomance was not great but the boks had no answers the first half. i left the game feeling very much between a rock and a hard place. a win is a win but i do fear if the irish was at full strength then the end result would have been a lot different.

 

 


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 08:37:55

A full strength Bok side beat a full strength Irish side by 1POINT in 2010.

An understrength developing Bok side beat an understrength developing Irish side by 5 POINTS on Saturday. before 2010 we lost to Ireland 3 in a row.

Whisch to you looks to be the better result.

I say two sides at the same stage in their deveopment on won by 1 POINT the other by 5......

be realistic, face it. This was the best result we have had against Ireland in 6 years.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 08:46:49

valid point ek but alas those other irish teams that we have been playing against has been far better than this one. to be fair a country like south africa should not be strapping it against the likes of ireland in the first place but due to our playing style we keep them close and those who knows irish mentality they do tend to lift themselves it the game is a good scrap. a win is a win but i am just being honest saying that the irish game was decent or world champ quality is as one eyed as they come.

 

louw's fetching ability kept us in the game.....and that the same old meyer that flip flopped on the role of a fetcher so i reckon old meyer should really buy louw a beer as he has given him some breathing space to keep his job


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 08:47:14

In what world were we at full strenght against Ireland? We had Kirchner at 13.....Aplon at 15(where he gave them two tries) Bjorn Basson at 14. Adi Jacobs on the bench? Deon Stegman in the team!

We were not missing 12 players, but we were not a full strength side.

Ireland has no depth. the difference between their starting 15 and the rest is massive.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 08:52:25

the irish has no depth to speak off that is why they are poaching players form all over to play for them to boost there ranks...

 

for the irish to lose a o driscoll or any of there main 15 is a massive blow as for us its not as massive blow due to the fact we can pretty much turn out a decent side with the super rugby depth we have. the previous boks sides were a lot better than this side so the mere fact that we have lost is even more a alarm for me.

 

the bok playing pattern of defence forward play and kicking is flawed and if we dont change our ways this type of performances will not change. we need to change our ways and fast.

 

 


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 08:53:23

Missing 3 players can be constituted as full strebgth as you will rarely have everyone avaiable.

 

Don't be so negative, Heyneke is still building a side dammit, He will also replace Jean de Villiers next year some time, we will have a new captain by the end of next year. Imagine he made all the changes wholesale. How many games would we have lost by now.

My the realism rarely sets in sometimes..


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8954
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 09:17:01

Ek thanks for pointing out the obvious to Rubgy 101 and muncher 101 page 1  that we are misisng a host of players from our match 22. 

The fact of the matter is this we had a poor first half. As Meyer said he gave the Boks the story at half time and we saw a dramatic improvement in performance. So who was falling short the players or the coach- quite obviously the players

Muncher actually gets something right for once when he says fatigue could be a factor - how could it not be given the amount of rugby these guys have played? We will always suffer from player burn out and injuries until meyer gets his way re centralised contracting - something the  SARFU boneheads are unlikely to do anything about given the past record of their abilty to deal with issues. They will flog the donkey till it drops.

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8954
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 09:27:01

Mike a word of caution about Jake. H ewaited until one minute to midnight before bring in Eddie Jones. Why was that- was ou Allistair - the Bok backline coach who had flopped - a quota selection. Of course he was.

I think the WC provided Jake with an opportunity to add to his staff and he brought in Eddie Jones and the improvement in our backline play was immediate.
What I would love to know is why did Meyer pick the bulle Vodacom coach to be his Bok backline coach. That is the million dollar question.

However to be fair we saw the Boks running the ball quite well against Oz. However I still cannot believe a sane man like Meyer  takes a Vodacom coach and makes him Bok backline coach whilst ignoring the best backline coaches available in the world.  Smacks of quota selection to me ala Alistair.

Bok backline play problems are a long standing issue and the mind boggles that it is not being addressed. We need a top backline coach  - end of story.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8954
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 09:30:05

Mike if Meyer insists on a precise playing style then why is it we have never seen it. It has varied a lot suggesting he is not as rigid as you are making out.

And please do not go on about our kicking game we do not kick too much and only the effectivenes of the kicking game can be questioned - ie execution.

 


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 09:36:42

EK, its not abbout making wholesale changes, the approach is a problem.

I would agree Beeno. Meyer needs a good backline coach to help him.His assistant coaches are far worse than what he is at this level. Meyer is very good at managing a team and to motivate them, but he needs help when it comes to the technical stuff.

After the Pdivvy fiasco we all wanted a coach with a good gameplan, Heyneke has not delivered in this regard. Our stupidity in our aproach is there for all to see. The NZ pundits keep on hammering on this and it is OBVIOUS to all that our gameplan is very very dull and not effective.


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 10:29:48

clevermike

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 2129
The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 03:31:59


I am getting very suspicious about what is really happening  as to performance of players when they play entirely differently in provincial level and become robotic when they play for the Springboks.   Let me explain - taking the fly half position as an example.   

Any objective person will agree that in the tests played this year  Morne Steyn became worse and worse. His  goalkicking regressd constantly and eventually in the Dunedin test was down to 20%.     His strategic kicking game collapsed completely and it was a major tool for handing over possession.

 

 

 

I haven't posted for quite some time, but I have been reading the posts fairly often. Once again, Mike you are coming out with half truths to suit your own little theories. Consider this when you talk about the Dunedin test and your theory that Morne Steyn's kicking game was "the major tool for handing over possession in that game.  This is factually how the possession was given away in that particular game:

2 Scrums lost
5 Line-outs on own throw
11 kicks from Pienaar
4 Rucks lost
16 penalties/free kicks
9 more Kicks from hand (apart from 6 by Morne and 11 by Pienaar).

Possession lost 47 times by the rest of the team against the 6 from Morne's kicks. Bear in mind that some of those kicks were defensive kicks from inside his own 22. Something else to consider about that test is the fact that the scores were level at 8 all when Morne Steyn left the field.

 

You can go and have a look at the stats for all the tests this season, and you would probably find a very similar patern.

 

I am not, for one moment said that Morne's form is anywhere near his best. Above all I am also not saying that HM has been perfect in everything he has done so far, but your "observations" are as accurate as many of the journo's who have been looking for a scapegoat for our performances. What nobody want to accept is the fact that despite having to start from scratch, HM has never once been able to select the team that he would probaly have liked to select. There have just been too many injuries and other factors involved.


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 10:38:09
Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 542

 

 

I am not, for one moment said that Morne's form is anywhere near his best. Above all I am also not saying that HM has been perfect in everything he has done so far, but your "observations" are as accurate as many of the journo's who have been looking for a scapegoat for our performances. What nobody want to accept is the fact that despite having to start from scratch, HM has never once been able to select the team that he would probaly have liked to select. There have just been too many injuries and other factors involved.

 

100 % correct.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 10:54:28

injuries are part of the game and as a coach one needs to take note of that and make ajustments according to that. thats a given. i do not think for one second that meyer would play a complete different style even if all his so called 1 choice players was fit and ready. he has his style of play and that is how he coaches.

 

his public statements on the state of backline play and his own choice of the backline coach has in effect thrown himself in front of a bus. he is more obsessed of firing louis koen for the lack goal kicking abilty yet the backline that has not scored a decent try from a structured move in years's coach still remains in place and without and mention in the media.

 

if HM was serious of making the boks a world force he should have forseen the biggest weak links in the boks playing pattern and should have chosen proper support staff to amend and fix the relevant issues. instead he did a 180 and now we are stuck between n brick and a trolley.

 

we had injuries yes but we had 3 teams in the super rugby playoffs with a huge amount of depth. players dont dictate a playing pattern so dont buy that excuse.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8954
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 11:02:40

Names of players not available to Meyer:

 

Since last year, these players were not available today.
Habana
Fourie
Steyn
du Preez
Goosen
Guthro
Beast
Smit
Bismark
Burger
Spies
Rossouw
Botha
Bekker
Brussouw
15 players gone.
Some wise words rom Deans -who actually has less o f a problem than we do.
Deans believes it’s vital that an agreement is made between the two parties when it comes to resting Australia’s elite players during the year.
It has to happen and that’s what we’re spending a lot of time discussing at the moment,’ he said. ‘Just the fact that the Irish have won more European Cups than anywhere else and New Zealand’s won more Super Rugby titles than anyone else and those two groups are the ones that are rotating their international playing group. And it’s not just the international side, it’s the franchises that are thriving.’ In the words of the formerly great coach Robbie Deans.
We have fundamentals that are wrong.
Windpomp I trust you did not get these stats from ou barny who is at best as dubious source! Hahahahhahahaha .
What I cant support though is Meyer's back up coaching staff selections. 
 

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10276
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 11:10:38

Ceradyne

Sorry - but your comments on the score being level at 8 all  when Morne Steyn was replaced in the Dunedin game is complete hogwash.   He was replaced 10 minutes before the game ended.   If he was replaced earlier we would probably have won the game.    Where did you get that 8 all myth from?

You talk about possession lost and then goes on from there as if Morne Steyn is exonerated.   i did not deal with the rest of the team - I dealt with aimless kicking.    When in the 22 the defensive kicking was virtually all done by Pienaar.   It was whilst they were in the All Blaks half - when Morne got the ball and kicked aimlessly to the point where the commentators described to of his kicks as "Bullshit"    In those circumstances Morne Kicked 6 times and Pienaar 4 times. 

However, you missed the whole drift of the discussions completely - by concentratting on one sentence.   There is no doubts that Morne Steyn's performances went backwards this year under Meyer.  It was not only his goalkicking that went from bad to worse - other parts of his game also went downhill.    When replaced by Goosen - the latter played one good game and the next one he was nervous and ineffective.   Same with Lambie on Saturday - a complete contradiction of his previous performances.   Granted he got poor balls from the forwards because of a piss pot poor selection by Meyer of Van der Linde and Kruger - that caused poor scrummaging and slow ball wins in mauls by the forwards - but he rarely displayed anything of substance in that game.

The question in fact was why is our flyhalf play in particular and our backline play in general robotic  and totally ineffective?  I say it is because of the manual given out to them by Meyer and the inability of his poor backline coach to produce anything at all.   End of story.

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10276
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 11:35:02

Beeno

Is Ceradyne the new name for Aristocrat and the Cat?  You seem to know.   

As for the one comment - where we are in full agreement - the replacement of the backline coach or the appointment of a backline technical advisor that needs to do the actual backline coaching instead of the present dummy - should be urgently done.   If that is not done - Meyer is definitely on the road to nowhere.

The other issue to be addressed is Meyer's selections.  He should watch who are the top players in Super 15 in 2013  and pick his team accordingly.   His tendency to pick rubbish like Van der Linde and Steenkamp is a major embarrassment in any event.   That after selecting with two exceptions the whole Bulls team  for the Springbok squad at one time or another during the past year.

I do not always buy into the injury story - if players are injured and have to be replaced - the best alrternatives should be picked.   This is really where Meyer buggered up badly - he picked th worst alternatives often enough.

What I am driving at is that Meyer should do some serious adjustments in his approach - nothing esle. 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 11:40:06

Mike, get your facts right and then we can discuss the rest of your thesis. Steyn was replaced in the 59th minute when the scores were 8 - 8. Cruden score just after the replacement. I am now also not going to try and say that Goosen was to blaim for that try, but the fact is that it came just after MS was replaced, 21 minutes before the end of the game. In that 21 minutes the AB's put on 13 points and SA added 3 points.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 11:43:45

i agree beeno with those 15 players being a massive void but from that list i would say there about 2 or 3 that cant really be replaced. brussouw's fetching ablity is second to none and we are sorly lacking in that department. louw has done a great job but louw played second fiddle to brussouw when he was playing. jacques fourie is another massive loss but in that same vain we have players like jordaan waiting in the wings. offcourse smit's captaincy is the biggest loss but this was well known so we sit at the end of 2012 and yet there has been no planning for the future. i dont think burger is bok captain material anyways as i do think his place in the starting team is not assured. a player like juan smith has that massive aura around him and is a true captain that leads from the front.

 

its another team that you have there beeno but the team that was on the park saterday was by no means poor. one thing that we have now that was not there pre jake white era is depth. i am just being honest and we cant have the cookie cutter approach. we need to active/progressive and stupid things like game pattern and player selection should not even be a issue.

 

the english are even more forward thinking the us they have appointed a attacking coach aka mike catt (i wont have sleepless nights about his attacking coaching abilty) but at least they show some form of forward thinking...what on earth is wrong with us ?????

 

@mike the flyhalfs have being told what to do on every aspect of there play and the overcoaching is causing the lacklustrue type of play. it destroyed the likes of peter grant, braam van straaten louis koen and morne steyn and i dont wont to see the likes of lambie and goosen to become the modern day donkey of donkeys aka mister van straaten and co. if one looks at the timelines ext HM is indirectly the main reason why morne steyn is so one dimensional

 

 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 11:49:19

clevermike

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 2131
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 11:35:02


Beeno

Is Ceradyne the new name for Aristocrat and the Cat?  You seem to know.  

 

Why don't you just ask me?


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8954
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 13:04:34

Mike, Cera is Vlagman. Certainly nothing to do with the intelligent Aristocrat but considers Ceraconsiders himslef a sage and a deep thinker on the game.  Loves his rugby but can get long winded and confused (has a circular style - i.e. goes around in circles at times and you begin to wonder if the earth is flat etc) - so I call him windpomp.  Hahahahahahaha. Is a die hard rabid bulle supporter  - frothing at the mouth sort but hiding it as best he can.  Not too bad an oak as oaks go! 

Muncher the picture is confused by the dislocations all this stuff has caused.  To those 15 add in then Juan and Coenie. 17 players out. Players droppoing like flies and moving overseas etc. 

Only logical solution is central contracting and joining the NH. Adoption of merit as the ruling principle would be the third pillar.

 

 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 13:21:36

"..........................himslef a sage and a deep thinker on the game."  More than Mike with his lengthy essays?

 

"........i.e. goes around in circles at times and you begin to wonder if the earth is flat etc...."  See above

 

 

".........Is a die hard rabid bulle supporter  - frothing at the mouth sort but hiding it as best he can." More than what you are a die-hard frothing at the mouth WP/Stormers supporter?

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8954
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 14:16:51

windpomp you obviously have forgotten about the balanced Beeno approach! Your claims are outlandish.

Mike's contributions are as you say essays. Essays are worth reading - you can conclude on the subject windpomp.

 

 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 14:33:23

"Worth reading",  you say, when most of them are about having a bash at either HM or Morne Steyn, and then the rest are not quite that accurate either. But while we are on the topic......... you have also always been known as one who can be very careless with the facts. No wonder you value the essays.


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 454
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 15:21:31

 I still expected better from Meyer, yes the schedule has been tough and that the provincial coaches have a lot of pressure on them to perform, but I expected more from him. I think that his thinking is very old. The game has moved away from playing in your opponents half and kicking into corners. It is all about posession and numbers. One thing that really stood out for me this year is how the All Blacks respect the ball. One try in particular was when a poor clearance kick get received on the 50 m line near the the touch line. The all blacks shifted it to the part of the field where we had fewer numbers. One off load in the tackle by a tight forward and it was lights out for the boks. 

This is dynamic play where as the boks seem always want to take route 1 with the forwards and try to crash up, thus rendering posession. due to lack of numbers on the ground. We don't have great interplay between backs and forwards and with the big guys we have. Imagine if we did the same. Guys like Bekker, Vermeulen, Louw and Alberts taking on a backline player and off loading to a pacey back that can exploit the gaps. 

No, I'm sorry, our game is stuck in the dark ages. 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 15:45:57

@ Kingcorn, If you go and analyse the stats, you will see that we simply do not have the off-loading skills that the NZ teams have. Our teams are always lacking in the numbers of off-loads, and that is not something that can be taught in the short space of time that the National coach have the players at his disposal, compared to the time they spend at their unions/franchises. They should be in the Bok team because they have these skills in any case. They should not be there to learn or aquire them. Even against Ireland, we were beaten 5-2 in that dept. We did not have a single clean break against Ireland's 2 and we have beaten their defenders on 8 occasions, but they have beaten our defenders 10 times. We conceded 11 turnovers to Ireland's 9. That is because of certain skills, or lack thereof, which should not be something that the national coach should be concerned about, under normal circumstances.

 

Those skills are more often than not improved by players playing together, but it has just not been possible this year. How many different back-line combinations have we had? How many different centre combinations alone? Off the top of my head we had Frans Steyn/JDV,  Olivier/JDV,  Steyn/JDV again, JDV/Taute. Then we had four different flyhalves. Two different scrumhalves, etc, and not all these changes were do to HM's stupid ideas. They were mosty forced changes. The same happened with the forwards. How do you get continuity and a set game pattern together, and even start addressing the lack of basic skills. Skills that the players should have when the arrive at the Springbok Camp?


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 15:55:02

its because the players play one brand of rugby at the unions now suddenly they are fed a complete different style of rugby under meyer.

 

you make a great point about the offload skills but this has been a issue since the england series yet 6 odd months down the line the same school boy errors are there. there is nothing wrong with the offloading skills. just have a look at the super comp. the sharks cheetahs and co and masters of that play but its a mind set and approach and a bit of practice is needed to perfect that brand of game pattern. creating space and placing a player into that space is a art not a the potgieter style donkey ram rugby we are seeing.

 

but once again meyer knew the hand he was dealt with and why then has there not been a skills coach or at least a consultant involved if that area of the game needs to be fixed ???? and a offload is only as affective as the support is that backs the players up. please have a look at how the sharks used alberts during the super rugby comp,. that will give you a fair idea how a real playin enviroment is builded around a certain type of game.

 

as the saying goes you cant polish a turd but meyer as the the head coach/manager needs to take the blame for what we are seeing.


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 16:18:15

The Sharks, the Sharks, the Sharks. The Sharks only really came to light in the latter part of the S15. They had a crap start to the competition. The Stormers' was useless in attack and could not score tries. These are the players that was available. They have been down the drain for some time now, and their coaches could not fix their basic deficiencies. HM had them for a week before the frist England test. Then he had them for a short while before the RC, and then he only just got them again. Where do you get six months from? The flippin frnachises had them for how long, during which they gelled together in units. Now we are expecting the national coach to sort out these deficiencies, get the palyers to gell into a unit, do training, etc etc etc and achieve better results than their coaches who had ful time access to them?


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 16:29:06

offloading and support play is rugby that is taught in high school so the argument that the union coaches are to blame is very much far fetched. your points about meyer having one week to prepare for the english is a fair one but that was the same for everyone invovled. the AB and wallies for that matter. he had his training camps ext to that was to be expected. all the fans knew that the enligsh series would be a noddy series. the real issue is that the same errors that was made int he english series was made through out the 4 nations and in the first half of the irish game. running of the ball should be a given


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10276
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 16:40:21

Ceradyne

i think that your statement about the fact that we do not have the skills to off-load balls effectively in tackle situations is in fact a repreat of what Meyer said about the issue.  I think he was talking crap in that case and said so previously.   There are two issues at stake here - namely selection of players that hs the ability to do that and the further development of those abilities through coaching.   You really add something I fail to understand and that is tat the deficiency is not the responsibility of the coach.   If that is the case - what is the responsibility of the coach then - is it not to refine and development of player potential at all?

The problem I believe is that th capapcity to off-load balls effectively is not a criteriom of Meyer to select players - if you look at the main players selected by him this year:-

Hougaard    -    Not in evidence at all - his passing game under normal circumstances is bad in any event.

Pienaar        -   Has the ability and he made some effective off-loads - need further refining.

Morne Steyn -   Zero abilities in the relevant regard - improvement by coaching highly unlikely

Goosen        -   Good off-loader 

Lambie        -    Good off-loader

Olivier         -     Zero abilities 

Francois Steyn  - Never in evidemce but could improve under proper coaching

De Villiers   -    Used to be a capable off-loader - need to be coached to get it back.

De Jongh   -     Zero abilities

Taute        -     Same as Francois Steyn

Kirchner    -     Zero abilities.    

I took the above 12 players as examples:-

   *   Bad and probably uncoachable    -   6 players

  *    Coachable                                    -   3 players

  *    Good off-loaders                         -    3 players

There are a number of players - especially in the Sharks, Cheetahs and WP teams that are very good in the relevant regard - but ignored by Meyer.

 

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 16:45:05

spot on mike as always

 

what a lot of people tend to forget is that a offload is a 2 part system. you have a off loader but you more importantly need a support runner to complete the offload. i dont agree with you ceradyne that we lack that skill set but if players are micro managed to only look and think for the next phase (then the ball goes to ground) then things like creating space with offloads tend to fly our of the window. it gets over looked and that mindset is also a cancerious after effect of a forward obsessed mentality


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 16:57:01

Warra warra warra. Round and round and round we go. One essay after the other to display your dislike for HM. If our players do have all those skills sets, then why did we have the same problems in the S15. How many off-loads have Goosen had in the S15? The same goes for Lambie. Yes, I agree that he has done it a few times, but he is no SBW, or Dan Carter or Conrad Smith or something. When was De Villiers an off-loader. He has always had tow arrows in his quiver. He either tries to intercept, or he bashes into the first opponent. Has been doing it for years now, and he is 31 years pld. Do you really expect HM to get it out of him in a few weeks. We have no off-loaders of note in SA. Your selection and opinions of those twelve players are nothinhg more than that. Your opinions, and you are entitled to it, but you do not like it much if somebody disagrees with you. You also do not like it when you don't have your facts straight.

 

BTW, have you checked up on Goosen/Steyn and the Dunedin test yet?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10276
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 18:08:57

Ceradyne

In the first place - I did check on the replacement issue and found you were correct about it.  Thanks for the info and many apologies.  

Now back to De Villiers - in his early career he really played very well as an off-loader - i recent years it was not in evidence.   In any event De Villiers is really on the way out and is not a consideration at all.

Goosen did very well for the Cheetahs and he did one effective off-load  in the Pertoria test as well.  Lambie you reluctatly agreed with me.  Pienaar showed it frequently enough to justufy mu comments on him.

Can I ask you one honest question.   In the past year have you seen even one case of effecive off-loading of any of the other players mentioned by me?   

 

 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 18:48:02

No, I haven't seen effective off-loading, but then again I have also mentioned that there is a lack of off-loading skills all over the South African show, didn't I? And that was exactly my point. The lack of certain skills by our "top players"  when they arrive at the Bok camp. One of them being the off-loading skills that the AB's have,

 

IMO, there should not even be a kicking coach. The players who are the "known kickers" should be in the team because they can kick, and if they go off the boil, they should go back to the basics and work on it. As I have said, I do not believe that HM was perfect in everything, but at one stage, he and JDV said that they discussed Morne's kicking in during half time and they decided that he should keep on taking the kicks. What kind of captain is JDV? why did he not make an on-field decision to cahnge the kickers? Many other captains would have done that and lived with their decisions. Jphn Smit and Victor Matfield would have. Naas Botha even relieved himself of the licking duties in a game and handed the ball to Johan Heunis.

 

The butchered tries because of poor passing between JDV and Habana, and a few others............ was that due to HM's poor coaching? For Goodness sakes both of them have been playing at the top level for longer than five years.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6474
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 19:48:58

What rot Vlug....now it's JdVs captaincy because he never overturned the coach's kicking preference. Do you seriously think in modern rugby if Meyer wanted to make that decision during the half he had no way of communicating it? You should rather be thanking JdV for Habana's try in that game that he created with a piece of brilliant handling....or thanking him for his brave captaincy against Ireland.

 

We have all this Meyer bashing by posters with no alternative ideas, and you substitute Jean bashing as an offset. What utter rot. These Boards really flag up(no pun intended) some silly stuff.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2936
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 20:15:08

 The Sharks game plan is better than the Boks game plan. It is more expansive, as is the Cheetas game plan

The Sharks are also the best team at offloading in the tackle than any other team in South Africa at present.

The Stormers have the best defensive game plan.

Although I do agree in general that our inside backs skill levels are not up to scratch in general.

To many crash ball specialist and not enough creators.

Nonu and Sunny Bill Williams, along with Carter on their inside offers much more variation to the game plan that is possibale. So is is a 50/50 situation.

Our inside backs lack the skills of New Zealand and often Australia.

The passing by some of the backline players of the All Blacks in the Soweto test was sublime.

Some of the passes were probably longer than most of our players could throw a ball.

The skills of our inside backs is not great. Meyer has made an interesting observation- that many tries are scored from offloads, not just turnovers.

Offloads usually break the defence from structured phase play, other than the typical counter attacks from broken play.

This seems to be true. Bobby Skinstad was the best offloader in the tackle, but some of the current crop of players can still do this. Lambie can do this, Goosen is very good at this. Frans Steyn is actually very good at doing this when he is not hogging  the ball. Cotzee is good at offloading in the tackle in the loose forwards. Habana also has a good offload in the tackle. 

So we do have skills shortgages, especially within the inside backs who sometimes resemble looseforwards trying to crash over the gain line more than backs. However I would still question the game plan when we can create anything- like having a blind side wing run onto the ball, or the fullback cutting the backline, etc

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10276
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 20:18:23

Ceradyne

There are two comments made by you -

  *    that off-loading is an art practised by schoolboys - by implication they an do it, but most of the present players gave completely forgotten how to do it;

  *    that the Springboks arrived at the training campp totally unprepared to ball handling skills.

The first point I support based on what i saw in the Under 20WC - some of the players were still in chool and ohers barely out of it  - yet they knew perfectly well how to off-load.   The two best examples was Jordaan and Du Toit.   Probably the best one was the off-load of Jordaan that led to the bonus point try getting us into the semis.   Based on the Super 15 games and the CC Fames - Jordaan still retains his capacity in that regard.

Yes - the ball handling skills are often enough sub-standard and they need special attention by the Springfboks backline coach - not the ninny at present used as backline coach.

There is one missing element in both our arguments on the issue and that iis the support play of other players in the bacjline in particular and the issue of clever play in general.   The more intelligent players are proficient in ball handling and off-loading,         

 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 21:29:20

Yes - the ball handling skills are often enough sub-standard and they need special attention by the Springfboks backline coach - not the ninny at present used as backline coach.

 

So, we agree about it, The one thing that we seem to disagree about is the role of the present back-line coach in all this. I do not agree that he has to be saddled with it. OK, yes, he is the one to fix it if it is not up to scratch, but the point is that they should be up to scratch and it should not be necessary for him to have to waste important time with it. He has a fraction if the time with these guys, compared to the franchises.  In addition, we are talking about flippin international standard players. I think the fact about the sub-standard skills should be a slap in the faces of the different coaches at provincial rugby. WTF are the guys at the franchises doing then?


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 13, 2012, 11:55:46

Silence


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8954
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 13, 2012, 12:37:32

To me we have seen very good attacking rugby from the Lions, Cheetahs, Sharks and WP in the Currie Cup. We saw great attacking play at the loftus test against Oz.

I have been saying like you windpomp that Meyer has been badly hamstrung by injuries and departures etc and quite possibly this accounts for much of the shortfalls we are seeing. However he has blundered in not getting in a top backline coach - that is qualified by a question mark regarding an enforced quota requirement - how in the world does an inexperienced vodacom backline coach leapfrog the best backline coaches available in the world.

It is a muddied picture and hence the debate. Meyer knows the value of offloads and so should the franchise coaches where it appears it is being done to some extent.

I give Meyer the benefit of the doubt and look to 2013 for tangible improvement and 2014 where we should be hitting our straps. Of course patience in not part of a typical Bok fans makeup. How anyone can expect great performances with the departure of those 17 players mentioned baffles me. Yet dispite all this had Morne kicked as well as he normally does we would have won the Rugby Championship. The Boks had two great games - at Dunedin and Loftus.

 


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 13, 2012, 13:00:43

Do you know for a fact that no other back-line coaches were approached? We do know that the first one that he did approach was Allister Coetzee, who turned him down. How do we know that there were not others as well? Who are the backline coaches who are available? No-tries Fleckie?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10276
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 13, 2012, 15:10:44

Ceradyne

Why only look at SA coaches for the purpose of backline development? Why not find one from New Zealand preferably and even Australia.   Their backline coaches are miles ahead of SA - with the potential exception of the Sharks and the Cheetahs.    Coetzee would also have been a bad backline coach - maybe better than Louscher - but still bad..


Ceradyne

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1957
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 13, 2012, 16:39:40

That is quite a noble idea, but you seem to forget that Meyer was appointed on 27 January, when all the Franchises have already had their coaching staff in place, those in NZ and Aus as well. The NH rugby was in mid-season, and things had to get going. How and when was there going Meyer supposed to have started searching for assistants abroad. That does not even begin to address that outcyr by the supporters, and the comrades in govt for that matter, against Meyer ignoring local coaches, if he did just that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

I have actually come accross a note that I made on Outlook. It reads:

 

"27 Januarie 2012. Almal juig. Heyneke Meyer is uiteindelik amptelik aangestel as die nuwe Springbokafrigter. Ek wonder hoe lank dit gaan vat voor hy die kakste afrigter is wat nog ooit aangestel is........"


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 13, 2012, 23:00:37

clevermike

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 2163
RE: The Meyer Game Plan
November 12, 2012, 18:08:57


Ceradyne

In the first place - I did check on the replacement issue and found you were correct about it.  Thanks for the info and many apologies. 

 

 

Hahahaha ou Maaikie, looks like you have been caught out again. Hehehehahahaha. As if it was not enough that I caught you out on the accuracy on these novels that you keep on writing, another fella rocks up and exposes you as well.


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