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Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 00:17:48

 

Heyneke: I take errors on chin

2012-10-31 15:17
 
 
 
 
 
 

Cape Town - Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer on Wednesday defended himself against allegations that he been too conservative during his up-and-down first few months in charge of the national team.

He also confessed to having made “a lot of mistakes; I’ll take that on the chin” and said that he was “not a guy who knows everything”.

At a media briefing at the Boks’ Waterfront hotel here, ahead of the three-Test tour of Ireland, Scotland and England, Meyer said candidly that he took great pride in his post and had spoken to many coaches and players in his endeavour to improve the team’s fortunes.

“First you have to put the basics in place, and (it is difficult) when you haven’t always had the same team.

“The one criticism I sometimes feel is unjust is that we kick too much. But in all six Test matches we played in the (Castle Rugby) Championship we kicked less than our opponents.

“When we scored what I thought were five reasonably good tries against Australia (in the thumping 31-8 victory at Loftus) and missed three, everybody said it was a bad Australian side ... then they go out and draw against New Zealand and New Zealand don’t score a try.

“Suddenly I don’t hear that the All Blacks are conservative and they don’t play great rugby.

“But I don’t want to compare myself with other teams. Obviously you have to grow as a coach and a team and obviously you want to play better rugby and score more tries.

“Sometimes I feel that we’ve been together for nine Test matches ... I know it may sound a lot but you get in three days of (preparation) before the Test and have two sessions. So we want to grow.

“I’m very positive, as I’ve been in this position a number of times. I know where we’re going and we’ve blooded a number of youngsters which I’m very happy with ... that they’ll be at the (next) World Cup.”

He said that some these players would still only be around 24 by then, yet have played 35 Tests.

“Then suddenly you’ve got a team, and a lot of depth. But again, I’m never satisfied and have high standards - I want to win every single game.

“And you know, we have been in positions to (do that) ... we could probably have won 90 percent of those (surrendered) games if our kicking was better.

“(Never mind) conservative or expansive rugby - you do have to kick your goals and that is one thing we need to rectify.”
Meyer said he was keen to complete the northern hemisphere tour unbeaten.

“It’s been a long time since we did that abroad, and it won’t be easy. I’m also keen to examine some of the overseas-based players we’ve pulled in, especially forwards, who are still young enough to potentially play the (2015) World Cup.

“I need to see which players are tough enough to win tournaments away from home and in very different conditions.”  


Arthur John

Status: Squad member
Posts: 597
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 00:27:54

 HM you must listen, learn and stop taking the shots on the chin...got it!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 01:21:34

Sharkbok

Meyer has made a lot of mistakes with selections - and would not admit it.  That is where criticism orginated from - but he never mention that one and I assume his reference to mistakes in general covers that one.  I think he was not anywhere close with some of his selections for the coming tour - but perhaps he may just listen and learn from that.

He will probably play the following team in the test against the Irish:-:-

15  -   Kirchner

14 -    Mvovo

13  -   De Jongh

12  -   De Villiers

11 -    Pietersen

10  -   Lambie

  9  -   Pienaar

  8  -   Vermeulen

  7  -   Alberts

  6  -   Louw

  5  -   Van der Merwe

  4  -   Etzebeth

  3  -   Du Plessis

  2  -   Strauss

  1  -   Beast

Bench

16  -   Brits

17  -   Cilliers

18  -  Van der Linde

19  -  Kruger

20  -  Coetzee

21 -   Hougaard

22  -  Steyn

23  -  Taute

I thibk Taute may play the second half as 15.   The real problem case in the backline will be De Jongh - he definitekly is not test material.   The forward selection - and in aprticular the props was a mess caused by Meyer himself.   He will have to improve his selections completely to clear that up.

 

As to the WC - I think that the following players will not make the WC at all due to the age factor:-

  Kirchner, Habana, De Villiers, Pienaar. Alberts, Bekker and Jannie   they are all 29 or older.

He will also hve to find a decent center at 13.

Full Backs

I think that  Taute  will utimately be the first choice.  Second choice not obvious at this stage.

Wings

Pietersen will be first choice -  Alternatives Mvovo. Rhule, Basson. Van den Heever to name a few

Centers

New Centers will have to be found since De Villiers is too old and De Jongh really not up to international standard.   Francois Syeyn was the obvious first choice - but he was not up to standard in the tests this year.   If he cannot up his game - Meyer would have to find at least four centers to fill the vacancies.    I would think that the coming Super Series would help in indicating the better centers available.   At this stage the following centers may enhance their selectability:

   Jordaan, Serfontein, Venter, De Allende, Howard, Whitehead, Mapoe and Small-Smith

Although there are always players showing potential and ultimaately not succeeding - there should be enpough talent there to get four really top notch centers from the above.  At this stage the most promising centers are Jordaan, De Allende and Howard.   However, most if not all will play at Super 15 next year and the picture will be clearer afterwards.

Flyhalfs

  Goosen and Lambie

Scrummies  

Here we may have a problem.   Hougaard is not really performing.   If he can develop further and get over his present problems - he could be one of the scrummies.  The scrummies can in fact come from two of the following:-

  Hougaard, Reinach or Groom

No real alternatives at present and I hope that the situation could become clearer in the Super Series next year.

No 8

Vermeulen and Botha

Flamks

I think Louw would continue - but there really is a lot of other players that could come through - the list really is too long to include in the item.

Locks

Etzebeth plus +++++++++++

Props

Beast will be 29 at the next WC.  He may make the Grade.  Oosthuizen, Kitshoof, Malherbe ++++++++

Hookers

Bismarck and Strauss


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 01:36:58

CleverMike- I like the look of the squad you believe will be selected- at least in terms of squad that will be touring.  

 

15  -   Kirchner- The incumbent, has played better than I expected this year and has shown that he is one of the better fullbacks in SA. Not my first choice, 2nd or 3rd but OK- Taute should get a run in the 2nd half of all matches until he can cement the position as his own.

14 -    Mvovo- I would put Hougaard here, however Mvovo initially played some decent tests before completely falling apart. 

13  -   De Jongh- On this point I disagree with you. He is a specialist outside center with solid experience. Our backline defence this year has been terribale. De Jong is a strong defender, and I also believe a good runner. We can find better than him but for the immediate term I think he is the form outside center in South Africa. We will find better soon, but for the moment his parternship with Devilliers also counts in his favour. The defence against the All Blacks was shambolic and I do not think this would have been the case with a specialist center on the field like De Jong. On attack I think he is underated, no back looked good for the Stormers consistently on attack for the last 2 years.

12  -   De Villiers

11 -    Pietersen

10  -   Lambie

  9  -   Pienaar- The best scrumhalf in South Africa by a mile. 

  8  -   Vermeulen

  7  -   Alberts

  6  -   Louw

  5  -   Van der Merwe- flip flop, ok but must be replaced near the half way mark

  4  -   Etzebeth

  3  -   Du Plessis

  2  -   Strauss

  1  -   Beast

Bench

16  -   Brits- he could surprise me, but I would much rather have played a younger player. Deon Fourie would be my choice to cover the bench because he has speed, strong carrier but also an excellant fetcher.

17  -   Cilliers- crap

18  -  Van der Linde- crap

19  -  Kruger- ok, but I think we have better

20  -  Coetzee

21 -   Hougaard- covers scrumhalf and wing

22  -  Steyn- crap

23  -  Taute- good potential at fullback


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 07:05:10

Sharklbok

My problem with De Jongh is that he must be the no 13 center that had the worst try scoring record in Super 15 and also in CC Games. this year.   In the past ten months De Jongh scored three tries in over 20 matches played on all levels.  The main problem with De Jongh is that he really is a lightweight and I have often seen him trying to carry the ball at center and end up being so easily handled/tackled  by the oppositon defenders that he loses the ball in contact (for instance happened twice in the semi-final against the Lions) - has the ball turned over after being tackled or resulted in penalties because he hung onto the ball.    Look again also at the test in Pretoria - where a try was on the cards - but the opposition tackled him so easily that a try was never scored.

The problem is also that a light wait center can get away with the deficiency in weight - but then he needs a much better technique in attacking play than De Jongh has.   Problem is that both De Jongh and Mapoe are the lightest two centers in SA playing on Super series level  - both weighing 87 kgs - after that the lightest center being Jordaan at 96 kgs.   Of the three -

  *    Jordaan is the speedier of the three and technically the more dangerous player with a very good off-load technique;

  *    Mapoe is the stronger runner with a better ball-retention record than De Jongh and also better in ball-handling and off-loading; and

  *    De Jongh seems to have the lesser capacity than either of the two to create openings for other players to score tries.

Insofar as the issue of tackling whilst carrying the ball is concerned - Jordaan virtually never loses possession after being  tackled - he protect the ball very well and make sure his team retains the ball - some commentators often comment on him being slippery.   Mapoe is less slippery - but the team is more likely to retain the balls once tackled than is the case with De Jongh.   The issue of ball retention is obviously important - but there is another angle as well - and that is hanging on after tackle situations and consequential penalties.   Jordaan has in all the games I have watched him playing  given away one penalty on that account - whilst both Mapoe and De Jongh has given away a very substantial number of penalties under those circumstances.

As to ball handling and space creation - Jordaan is very dangerous and Pietersen and Ludick has scored a number of tries feeding from balls passed to them by Jordaan after drawing in defenders.   Mapoe also have the tendency to draw in defenders and effective off-loading leading to tries being scored (about a third less than Jordaan of similar try-precceding off-loads) - whilst that did not happen at all in the case of De Jongh.  In fact a good 13's contribution is not only scoring tries himself - but also creating opportunities for others to score tries.

The other issue is that Jordaan is also very busy trying to create opportunities.    For instance in the game against the Cheetahs he was onto the attacking player and together with other defenders prevented the player from going down - whilst he also managed to take the  ball forceably from the attacking player.   He managed to get the ball to Pietersen - who got the ball 15 meters inside the Sharks 22 and from their the attack proceeded that ended up in the try scored by McLeod.   Similar actions by De Jongh and Mapoe never happens - they are not physically strong enough to compete for the ball under such circumstances.   A similar occurence I may mention is the try scored by Jordaan in the game against the Bulls - where he himself prized the ball loose from the maul situation.

The latter type of play is just not possible in the cases of light - weight centers like De Jongh and Mapoe.

Insofar as defence is concerned - De Jongh is basically on par with Jordaan in that component of the game - with Mapoe lagging behind them.   Being physically much stronger - Jordaan can tackle attacking players backwards and is generally more effective in tackling heavier players than himself - whilst De Jongh can tackle effectively on the spot or with the attacking player going forward in the tackle.   Where the De Jongh has an edge is his timing of the tackle situation.   Take for instance the tackle made by De Jongh on Jordaan in the CC final.   De Jongh tackled him simultaneously the moment he was on receipt of the ball and before Jordaan could properly control the ball.   As a result of the tackle - Jordaan knocked the ball on - but he was never held and stayed on his feet - the situation could easily have let to a try by the Sharks, but for the knock on.  The timing was the factor here - not the efficiency ofthe tackle itself   The latter could easily have been classified as a missed tackle - but for the knock-on of the ball.

I mentioned the above - and gave examples which can be easily verified by checking the games mentioned - to support my contention that light-weight centers are not the answer anymore and that physical strength is a serious disadvantage insofar as especially attacking center play is concerned.   The physical deficiency can to an extent be overcome by clever play - especially in ball handling and off-loading - characteristics neither De Jongh does not display and Mapoe has - but in a very small number of cases.  

The above accounts in part for the limited number of tries scored by the Stormer backline in Super 15 this year - he was not the only culprit insofar as that problem is concerned - but he did contribute to the deficiency.   It also account for the fact that the backline of the Stormers score more tries per game on CC level when he and De Villiers was away on national duty  - than they did than when the two was in fact playing.

Please note - i am not saying De Jongh is a bad center - I am saying he clearly is not effective at all on international level and on Super Series level.    On CC level he is in fact a good center - not really the best there is around on that level though.          

   


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 09:20:44

"clever"mike, I might be mixing u up with somone else but werent u the one who said he was giving up on the Boks and didnt care anymore? If so, why do u care who gets picked?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 09:34:21

Jalap

Sure I did say that because I was disgusted by meyer's selections.  However,  I have a lot of time on hand (being unemployed)  and like to spek my mind and niggle some people in the process.   Certainly still interested in 2013 - but less so in the present circus. 


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 10:02:07

Dont want 2 be rude but if u unemployed then why arent u looking 4 a job insted of spending all day on a rugby forum?

 

Does xplain y yr posts are so long winded tho!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8498
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 12:14:54

Meyer has learnt stuff all, in fact his latest squad reflects a regression and even more conservative than before. The man is on the road to nowhere - we are going to struggle against England and Ireland with this squad of old farts


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 12:31:45

Jalap

Not to worry - am actually a pensioner - but am still looking around for a job


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5810
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 19:43:20

@clevermike,

 

well that explains ur odd sleeping patterns, lolz, :oP


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5810
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 19:56:22

always good to take errors and not balls on the chin, but i do think that Bok supporters are worrying over nothing with EOYT,,,,,except maybe england which if i was a saffa, i would hold my breath.


t. beast

2 a strauss

3 j du plessis

4 e ezebeth

5 flippty flop

6 f louw

7 m coetzee

8 d vermeulen

9 r pienaar

10 e janties

11 f hougaard

12 JDV

13 jp pieterson

14 j taute

15 p lambie

16 chiliboy

17 p cilliers

18 j kruger

19 w alberts

20 j veermak

21 m steyn

22 z krichner

 

this team is more then capable of beating any of the NH teams, but what is required is something more then crash and bash tactics and no plan B which is what happened in the 3rd test against england.
 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 01, 2012, 22:24:19

Sasue

It is always a pleasure to read what you have to say on the Board = you really are an asset and you remove some of our blinlers that we have about SA Rugby.  Thanks for that.

I do work from time to time for some companies to keep busy - but has often worked through the night - never slept  a lot.

Noow for your team selection.   I have a suspicion that Meyer is very vary about playing Jantjies at flyhalf - the most that can be expected is for him to be on the bench.   He did that in the past - but never brought him on before the Aussie test (when the result was a foregone conclusion) and in the Soweto test - purely because of the Goosen injury.   

If he put him on the bench again - he would not bring him on - unless the result is not in doubt.   I have a further suspicion that he may select Steyn on flyhalf -- with Lambie on the bench.  A leopaard never changes its spots - neither does Meyer in his weird approach to selections.    However, the issue will become clearer next week.   

  

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8498
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 02, 2012, 11:54:24

Sas I like your team, its along my way of thinking. I'd start Flip at 4 and move the more athletic Etzebeth to 5. Your loosies are spot on Coetzee has to start.

I'd play Hougaard at 9, possibly play Taute at 12, with JP at 13. Wings would be Rhule and Mapoe. But your backline is fine, except Hougaard is a must at 9


chiproll

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 28
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 02, 2012, 12:11:49

my team

1.beast

2.adrian

3.jannie

4.flip

5.eben

6.louw

7.coetzee

8.duan

9.hougaart - much beter than pienaar

10.lamby-his in form

11.jp

12.jean- dont really want him in the team

13.de jong

14.luwazi-fast and strong

15.taute- krichner is kak in my eyes and any one is beter than him at fullback

16.brits- great player needs a run in the green and gold

17.cillier- shit

18.kruger

19.albrits-great inpack player

20.vermaak

21.elton

22.krichner- just because we need a backline player on the bench that can go to fullback if taute needs to go to center


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8498
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 02, 2012, 16:24:24

Chip your centres are kak. Jean is past it and de Jongh is far too small for test rugby


blobbok

Status: Squad member
Posts: 553
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 03, 2012, 05:14:33

I'll save judgement until completion of tour but that said,one defeat this month & his first year ends with average minus grade .

Dave, no disrespect intended but your backline scares me .....

 

 

 

 

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10904
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 03, 2012, 09:47:38

Bobbok if the oaks look only at the stats and dont consider the context they - are bound to get it wrong. You will recall how, in vain, I tried to warn a group of bulle herders about the coming demise of the bulle look atthe scorebaoard they squawked aftr a 1 point win!! Chanpions sides know how to win close ames they opined. Hahahahahhahahaha well I do hope they are looking at the scoreboard now. Fact is the bulle are now regrouping and now one should have realistic expectations when this happens.

Meyer has had a large number of injuries much like Straulie did in his tenure. Boneheads are simply unable to consider context.

Hopefully we will do reasonably well on tour dispite having these injures and some pretty exhuasted players (unlike the abs and even Oz who have no domestic ompetition after the Rugby championship) as this will help keep the boneheadsat bay and give Meyer a chance to get things going better in 2013.  Of course there are astute observers who understand these things but they are few and far and betweem and hardly exist in nz apart from a guy like marshall.Bwahahahahaha


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8498
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 03, 2012, 13:22:35

Blobok, its not the backline I would select but its the best I can do with the players Mayer has selected.

Thee is no way I would move Hougaard to wing. Over my dead body would I ever select Morne at 10. Jean is past it and we are wasting time with him at 12. de Jongh is not physical enough for test rugby.................so that leaves me with few options given Meyer has decided to tour with only 2 centres, neither of whom I would select.

I fortgot about Mvovo, he would probably be one of my wings. I am a big fan of JP at 13, he has more attacking clout than any of our backs and playing him at 13, gets him more involved. Playing Taute at 12 is a short term thing, he is not a 12, but would be a better option than Jean.

I have plenty of faith in Jantjies and dont buy into all the shit that gets slapped on him on this board. He is creative and I want that in my pivot.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 03, 2012, 20:55:49

Saffex

I am afraid your faith in Jantjies is misplaced - I have none in him.  I always thought he had serious deficiencies in his game - but he was so poor in the Soweto test that his fellow players would not pass balls to him.   That was the final straw - I have never seen a case where in 25 minutes the sctrumhalf and other players did not pass a ball to the flyhalf.   Don't you think that the players on the field did not recognize the consequneces of passing balls to Jantjies?   

I like many of the playes mentioned by you - but Jantjies (as the modern equavalent of Earl Rose) is to my mind a definite NO.  

 

 

 

   


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Heyneke: I take errors on chin
November 05, 2012, 10:59:34

i agree on jantjies...he is on the path to become the overhyped earl rose that only gets picked for that one magical game in a year rather than showing permanent class on a permanent basis. under carlos spencer he looked a lot more rounded but we will see how he works it at the stormers.

 

 


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