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2862 Topic: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
mozart

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Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 15:16:38

I would like to have seen Fourie get a chance.....I'd prefer van den Heever to some of these smaller wings. Certainly Jordaan is a surprising omission, although de Jongh did rather lower his sails.

 

So I see a lot of comment about how stupid Whineke is. But then I hear Kitshoff, Malherbe......Steph hahahaha du Toit. Frankly I think it's a terrible squad, but that's the state of our game right now. I wouldn't have selected Brits, Captain Confusion, Juandre Kruger....but who are the alternatives. Not players you would wish for the bench, let alone the starting team.

 

Whineke made lots of mistakes, he is creating too many new Boks....but creating a few more, who are struggling at CC level will only hurt us and them.


Ek

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Posts: 1464
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 15:23:58

 Moz alot of the Selectionsand the selections during the year so far are because of Injury or unavailibility of the followiing players wheither they are better or not, Heyneke would have liked tham there and nees to adjust to the situation:

Schalk Burger

Coenie Oosthuizen

Bryan Habana

Andries Bekker

Juan Smith ??? Maybe not really he has been off really long term but still

Fuorie du Preez

Jacque Fourie

Pierre Spies

Bismark du Plessis

Johan Goosen

Frans Steyn

I might have missed a few but these are the major one's that i think Heyneke has an interest in.


mozart

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 15:29:40

Absolutely!  We have a poor squad and that list of injuries is a big part of it. There are  6 or so starters on that list. Dinging him for that is not productive.


Ek

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Posts: 1464
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 15:38:48

Exactly, the guy is doing the best he can with what he has, picking players to complement each other and what he expects of them.


Saffex

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 15:41:13

Players that are better than some of those selected include:

Ludik, v/d Heever, JJ.Engelbrecht, Jordaan, Whitehead, F.Venter, Catrekilis, Fouche, Reinach, Groom, Kitshoff, M.v/d Merwe, Malherbe, Frik Kirsten, Bresler, Steph du Toit, JA Marais, Willemse, CJ Stander, Daniel and D.Fourie.............good to see you are in tune with our players as per usual Moz............no doubt you see the likes of Kirchner, de Jongh, Jean, Morne, Vermaak, CJ, Cilliers, Steenkamp, J.Kruger and Franco v/d Merwe being better than my list above.......sigh, sigh!!

I am so going to enjoy rubbing your face in it when Steph du Toit partners Etzebeth for years to come. Remember this day


Ek

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Posts: 1464
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 15:48:14

 Saf, some of the players above you mentioned are not good enough, It however is up for debate as all selections are and people have diffenrent points of view. On some other selections like du Tiot for instance he has not had so much gametime at CC level this year, so how can you validate is current inclusion. Some other players you mentioned may not have the Psychological mentality to make it at such a young age, not all u19 player irrelevant of talent will make it if you throw them into the couldron. 

Some players are needed to be left to mature first with some patience and some players are not good enough or might be but it is up for debate anyway.

 


Saffex

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 15:56:11

Ek stop speaking kak......the players I mention are all better than the players included in the squad.

I have seen more than enough of Steph du Toit to know that he is a far better player than Kruger or Franco v/d Merwe.............no contest at all. Neither of these locks are test standard, Steph du Toit has the credentials to make the same impact Etzebeth has.

Its about selecting the best players.......Steph du Toit and a number of others are far better than the likes of CJ, Steenkamp, Franco and co


Ek

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 16:06:24

 Bull[removed] Saf,

they are better because you think they are better, not because they are clearly better. You are very impatient when it comes to young players and consistently want to pick them above others older players. Impatience SAf is not a Virtue. du Tiot Might potentially be a better player, but it's madness to select him now, Yes i agree the kid has talent, but give it time, added he is still injured so don't know why you would select him now, for the future possibly yes, now no. Franco has been selected as he is a hard grafter and a team man. there are more things to consider than pure talent.  This is your oppinion..Where on earth is Wepener better than anyone in the squad, no way Saf, Marais, better than kruger, Bull[removed] Saf. Willemse didn't even finnish the CC now you want to select him, madness. CJ Stander is going to Ireland, what is the point in selecting him, he has pplayed his cards. Malherbe is too inexperienced a scrummager, as well as van der Merwe. Daniel has been shown up at this level, Kitshoff better than Beast or Guthro, don't Joke. Reinach or Groom, give them a chance to mature, maybe they are one seson wonders. Fouche, the kakest Flyhalf in the country is mentioned by you as bieng better than Steyn, Bull[removed] Saf.

The only players you mentioned that are worth even looking at are:

Jordaan, Vd Heever, Ludik the rest are eithr not good enough or too young or too iexperienced or ay other reason. 

Be Patient.


mozart

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 16:22:49

Funny thing is, a few years back Steenkamp was a huge Sapp favourite. Likewise CJ.....wait long enough, a year or two, and he'll be moaning about Jantjies, Coetzee and Taute.  My guess is, barring a bit of conditioning Steenkamp is probably better today than ever.

 

Problem is Sapp thinks he is a visionary.  But this year apart from Etzebeth who we all picked....every one of his picks, like Mvovo, crashed and burned. So now Whineke is a fool if he doesn't buy into the next group.  It's a regular pattern of delusion.


clevermike

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 16:45:14

Mozart

There are in fact two issues here, namely -

*   Who did Meyer left out that should have been selected; and

*   Who are in fact the duds in the team that is there despite the fact that they have no form whatsoever ad has underperformed for this whole year.

Insofar as the players that should have been on tour who has performed well over a lonher period are the following:-

   Lu[removed], Jordaan, Catrakilis, Fourie, Malherbe, Kitshoff - I would add a few more that to my mind should be considered if there were vacancies.

The duds who had terrible performance records or were average - but below par for selection because they were poor throughout Super 15 and in tests and subsequent CC Games are -

  Kirchner, De Jongh, De Villiers, Morne Steyn, Jantjies, CJ van der Linde, Ralepelle, Kruger and Cilliers, 

Kirchner was average at best and useless in the Dunedin test - where he really was totally out of position and his defence is at the best of times really poor to non-existent.

De Jongh scored two tries in 2012 in Super 15 - both in the game against the Rebels - after he was passed the ball withan open tryline in front of him.   The alternative question is how many penalties did he give away - because he clung unto the ball after being tossed  in tackles and how many balls he lost under such cir[removed]stances.   He put in some tackles - but have never been really sucessful in that regard on higher level than CC.   On attack he is as harmless as a paper doll - and not clever enough to outwit the  opposition.

De Villiers is sad to say past his sell-by date - also really not effective in attacking play at all and he missed some crucial tackles in games in Super 12 and on test level.   His game has deteriorated marked;ly during the past two years.   His absence in the CC competition - where he was replaced by a 20 year-old rookie - actually helped WP and the WP backline functioned much better without him and De Jongh.

Morne Steyn - horribly out of form and the latest CC performances was mediocre at best.   Meyer was forced to replace him in the SA legs of the Championship - basically because the public was sick and tired of his poor performances - but Meyer keeps him in the team despite his atrocious performances this year.

Jantjies has displayed serious deficiencies in performances - his kicking at goal being the only positive.   His defence is a joke and his passing game is as Stranski said "manufactured"   Under the high ball he chickens out.   Bad news that one.

Hougaard - had a series of bad performences  both as scrummie and wing and he showed how really bad he is in the CC semi-final.   Would do with a break and some good coaching.

Cj van der Linde has not played a full game this year and where he did he was a serious joke.   He is way past his sell-by date.

Ralepelle was off injured for months and only returned from the bench in the CC semi.  It was plain to see that he was miles away from being matchfit.

Cilliers came from the bench in a number of tests and when he came on the Springbok scrum disintegrated.  He also showed Zilch in driving forward play and the same in defence.   Not Springbok material at all.

Kruger was Meyer's original selection at lock - did nothing and was subsequently dropped from the squad.  Now he is back after putting up a poor display on CC level.   He is worthless in line-outs as well.

You can also look I what I said about Meyer's Bulls favourites elsewhere.             


Saffex

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 17:15:11

Yes Moz, Steenkamp and CJ WERE our best props a few years back - but hey they have grown old, are past it, its called natural regression or does this fact not feature in your world?

As for my calls being flops - bull[removed], has Meyer selected my calls and we had failed, then you would have been in a position to make this call. Meyer [removed]ed up by not selecting my calls.......I dont recall Lambie at 15, Taute, JP or JJ at 13, Jantjies at 10 ahead of Morne when Goosen was injured, Hougaard retained at 9 and the likes of Coetzee retained in the starting line-up.

So Moz, dont make it up - Kirchner, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, J.Kruger or Alberts were never my calls..........had the Meyer selected some of my youngsters, the same youngsters that shone in the S15, we might have made a better impression.

None of my calls failed as they were not selected


mozart

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 17:37:18

Mike not one of your incremental suggestions would make the bench. You can't be serious:

 

"Lu[removed], Jordaan, Catrakilis, Fourie, Malherbe, Kitshoff".....apart from Fourie who I also think deserved a nod ahead of Brits, none of these guys are ready. Hell Lu[removed] had the game saving movement in his control and he blew it. No brains. The rest are nice provincial players, they wont worry Ireland.

 

Dave every one of your calls Etzebeth a concensus pick aside, ....bombed.


Saffex

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 19:00:49

Yeah right so Coetzee, Goosen and Taute bombed - what bull[removed]. The rest did not get selected


mozart

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 20:26:21

Here Dave....suck on this:

 

1) Kirchner your passionate pick from last year was an ineffective robot.

 

2) Mvovo a great favourite of yours was dropped after playing a big part in our poor away test against the Bargies.

 

3) Taute makes 3 crucial mistakes leading directly to AB tries, blowing our lead....and asks to play fullback.

 

4) Jantjies inherits a second half lead against the ABs.....and becomes irrelevant to proceedings....test lost.

 

5) Hougaard is dropped from scrumhalf by his erstwhile coach who believes in him....the consensus is Pienaar is an improvement.

 

6) Greyling the guy you touted heavily against my advice.....blows a test.

 

7) Flip Flop remains adequate, no more.

 

8) Your man Burden fails to impress and is left out of the NH tour.

 

9) Coetzee is dropped for Louw....the Boks immediately improve.

 

10) Daniels is shown to be provincial class....not test class. He is smeared in the CC final by de Jongh the man you crucify at every turn.

 

11) Spies another of your heroes turns in another weak S15 , gets hurt and nobody even talks about his return.

 

12) JJ Engelbrecht can't even perform well enough at practice to stay in the squad.

 

Does that list of your picks help? I'm sorry to be so crass, but you only get when you are hit between the eyes with a two by four.


clevermike

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 20:30:53

Mozart

The players mentioned by me won't make the bench - I accept it because despite consistent form  over a protracted period - they were not selected.   Those selected by Meyer showed no or abysmal form this year - but that according to you count for nothing. 

Why not comment on what i sadi and motivated about the selected players?   That really is the point I am trying to make - pick players on form not on reputation only with no form to speak of.  

The abysmal selections of Meyer will cost us dearly and the losses are mounting and will continue to do so.

 


mozart

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 21:44:59

Mike with all respect, I sometimes find myself skipping your stuff, not because it's not valid, but because it's so long and frankly emotional. I am much more persuaded by logic. Try to send a telegram and not a book please.

 

With respect to selecting players who aren't in form....here's my thought. Any player who has at one time been succesful in tests has a form pass for a few games. But players who flop in tests, right out the box, like Mvovo.....almost never make it.

 

Then there is the team thing.....Jake played Habana, Bakkies, Smit, CJ, Butch, Monty and Danie through some low patches....kept them as part of the team. Newbies struggled to get their caps, but by the time they did they had at least outplayed a Bok in[removed]bent to get there. These days a good game against Griquas and you're in......give the team the benefit of the doubt, and the team will discipline itself.

 

It's a different philosophy than the discredited form players approach.


sasuke uchiha

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 30, 2012, 22:01:12

LMAO, i mike and i must be bloggin twins, cos my fellow kiwis are often saying the same things about me on my regular blogging stomping grounds.

but to the topic at hand, those players who have had regular gametime but IMO have let down the Boks in 2012 morne, krichner, beast, j du plesiss, JDV still have pelnty to offer and while it might just be SH arrogance, im expectin all SANZAR teams to win their games.

the only players i would have selected in the squad, would have been deon fourie, jj englbrecht and possibly a bressler, but franco is a solid player and have no problem with bressler missing out due to francos selection.
deon is IMO quite simply the best SA player out their at the moment, i think his non selection is right up there with meyers biggest errors in his inaugral year, right beside his desperate inclusion of goosen who was IMO, never physically ready for the challenges of international rugby.
jj englebrecht has not has the most promising start, but we all know hes a talent, and while he wouldnt make my starting 22, i would have no problems picking him on the bench if an injury was to occur. i would definately pick him over lionel mapoe whose selection is the most [removed]ed IMO.


mozart

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 00:09:07

Despite all the hand wringing and recriminations,  I still haven't heard one name that is likely to make a difference. We have pretty much all our best available players in the squad. Maybe a few that aren't our best, but they aren't starters or even bench candidates. So it's mostly hot air.

The starting 22 is not controversial......now it's mostly about avoiding silly selections within the squad, coaching and the will to win.


clevermike

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 00:14:22

Mozart

I will ask three questions bluntly aand briefly:-

  *    How can anyone select a player who have never played test rugby and failed on lower level to play for the Springboks - or is lower level failures not important in Meyer's book?

  *    How many times must a present or previous Springbok fail in tests and coninue to fail on lower level - before he is not selected?

   *   Do you really believe that once a Springbok - always a Springbok - is a criterium for selection and a substitute for performance-based selection?  

There are quite a lot of players proposed by Dave - that I would not have near the Springbok team - in other words I agree with you on thosse players - yet Meyer picks some of them.  Both Meyer and Dave is to my mind totally off thee rails.  LOL

Anyway - I would not be overly happy - like you seem to be - about Meyer's team.   They are going to get a whacking - that really is what is worrying me.


clevermike

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 00:36:25

Sasue

South Africans have always managed to shoot themselves in the foot by some means or other.   Part of the selection processes are political - some of them are weak and just given passes to be in the team for ulterior reasons.   Engelbrecht had a series of very poor performances on CC level - and has - I heard - been shopped off to the Queens - Mapoe to take his place in the Bulls team.  Whether that is a wise move is indeed questionable.   

Anyway - I still think that Meyer was forced into selecting Goosen by the public.   Morne Steyn was just not acceptable to the public anymore and is still not acceptable.   Further losses will be totally unacceptable and all hell will break lose then.  


Saffex

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 11:47:49

Here Dave....suck on this: Sucked and spat out as usual!

 

1) Kirchner your passionate pick from last year was an ineffective robot. Wrong have NEVER picked Kircher as my starter, it has always been Frans in the days Jean and Fourie were our centres and has been Lambie ever since - FACT. I like Kirchner, but Ludik deserves the call up ahead of him as Lambie's back-up.

 

2) Mvovo a great favourite of yours was dropped after playing a big part in our poor away test against the Bargies. Your take on Mvovo has always been inaccurate, you have him down as passive, rubbish the lad is quick and a useful squad player. Rhule has emerged as the one to watch.

 

3) Taute makes 3 crucial mistakes leading directly to AB tries, blowing our lead....and asks to play fullback. Rubbish Taute missed one crucial tackle that led to a try, your take on 3 mistakes is nonsense, in particular a miss touch kick by a 13, so bloody what. All the Boks were poor against the AB's in that second half including your hero Jean. Taute had a great test against Oz the week before. To say he is a flop after the NZ test is pathetic and naive

 

4) Jantjies inherits a second half lead against the ABs.....and becomes irrelevant to proceedings....test lost. Jantjies had a solid test against the AB's everyone acknowledged that, go back and read the reports. He had nothing to do with the loss at all - FACT

 

5) Hougaard is dropped from scrumhalf by his erstwhile coach who believes in him....the consensus is Pienaar is an improvement. Pienaar has not been an improvement at all and we know nothing of the relationship between Meyer and Hougaard. Moving Hougaard to the wing was a mistake and the results speak for themselves.

 

6) Greyling the guy you touted heavily against my advice.....blows a test. Greyling was never a starter for me, was always a squad choice. Based on ability he was up there with the best of the looseheads a year or so ago, but he blew it this year. I concede on this guy, we have better youngsters about

 

7) Flip Flop remains adequate, no more. Flip has been good all year - FACT, far better than pretenders like Johan Muller, who you were a fan of. Flip gets stuck in, is a physical asset

 

8) Your man Burden fails to impress and is left out of the NH tour. How did he fail, he never got a start and I have never sung his praises as a hooker, you are making this one up. There are at least 4 or 5 better hooker about

 

9) Coetzee is dropped for Louw....the Boks immediately improve. Coetzee is not an openside, he is a 7 or 8 and how have the Boks improved, we lost to the AB's?

 

10) Daniels is shown to be provincial class....not test class. He is smeared in the CC final by de Jongh the man you crucify at every turn. Daniel was played out of position at 8 in that test, a test that all the Boks were poor in. Daniel got flawed by de Jongh, Schalk got flawed by Lambie - whats your point?

 

11) Spies another of your heroes turns in another weak S15 , gets hurt and nobody even talks about his return. I have given up on Spies and said as much, man has no mongrel. Read my posts Moz!!

 

12) JJ Engelbrecht can't even perform well enough at practice to stay in the squad. That's a pathetic call made by Meyer and his results speak for themselves.

 

Does that list of your picks help? I'm sorry to be so crass, but you only get when you are hit between the eyes with a two by four. Moz what you dont get is that until Meyer starts to win regularly against the likes of Oz and NZ while excluding the players I say he should select then I'm afraid my take on selections or non selections is vindicated. Meyer has it wrong and the reason for this is that he is too conservative and invests in hasbeens who are long past it like Jean, Morne, CJ, Steenkamp and the likes, not to mention the poor calls made regarding Cilliers, de Jongh, Franco v/d Merwe and Liebenberg as test or potential players. If Meyer invested in the young players that did us proud in the S15 and adopted a current game plan, we would not be having this debate. Etzebeth, Goosen and Coetzee have vindicated the youthful selections, Meyer needs to take this investment further and select the other worthy youngsters to blend in with the core of experience he has in JP, Habana, Frans, Pienaar, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Jannie, Bekker, Brussouw, Louw and Alberts


 


clevermike

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 12:44:44

A girl

I am amazed by some of the statements made by Mozart and has asked him some really pertinent questions - which I hope he will answer precisely as asked for.

I agree with you more frequently than you might think.   I have some differences with both you and Mozart though.   Mvovo was on the field of play for 10 minutes in one test - made a serious mistake and is now condemned for life by Mozart.   That certainly is not a norm for player evaluation and I pointed that out to him previously.

Mozart always referred to Taute missing three tackles - when it was proven that one of those was missed by Hougaard and not Taute - he accpeted that version - now he is back to the three tackle statement.  However, Taute does prefer to play at full back and I believe he did really well in that position when he played  for the Lions.   If he wants to play at 15 - he should not be forced into a position he would play in to get selected - but not really excel in.

You are dead wrong about Jantjies - he buggered up bdly in the second half of the Soweto test and it was a fact that after a number of seriously-flawed plays by him - his teammates cut him out and did not pass the ball to him.   Look at he second half of the match again and you would find the trurh of this statement.

I have come to agree with you on Morne Steyn, De Villiers and particularly De Jongh.   They are way past their sell-by dates - but Mozart will not accept that.

Mozart is off the mark with Van der Merwe.  he had a good test in Dunedin - and was solid whenever he came of the bench.   One penalty mistake  when he came on - was also used to condemn this guy.

I think that Daniels i a top Super 15 player - but he had two rather averages last two matches in the CC.   Maybe he needs a rest.   He is an excellent impact player and should be in the squad.  

Both you and Sasue likes Engelbrecht - I thought he was - and probably still is - a reasonable proposition - but he fouled up badly in the CC series after he was sent back by Meyer.   However, the whole Bulls team was a shambles - in particular the backline.

I believe we should watch out what happened in the 2013 Super Series and that thereafter the teams swhould be picked strictly on merit - none of the holy cows wanted by Mozart without continuous top class performances on their part.  

  

 

 


mozart

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 15:03:40

Well just a few points. I have been onto Mvovo since the Crusaders game in London a year or more ago. His screw up against the Bargies was just one data point.

 

I said Taute had a hand in 3 AB tries. He did. He started the rot by failing to kick the ball out when our backs were hopelessly out of position....directly leading to the AB try. He missed Dagg leading to the AB try. And thirdly he failed to either close or drift when presented with an AB overlap....try by Smith. Centres have to defend dynamically....standing and waiting for your opponent to run into your embrace doesn't cut it.

 

As for the rest of that nonsense, we have been over it all before. You guys want a flavour of the day, Destroyli like approach....I prefer the methods of Henry, Clive Woodward and Jake White, the last three RWC winners. All of these coaches put team selection, morale and combinations.....ahead of individual selections.


clevermike

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 15:38:49

Mozart

I accept your point about combinations - and believe those must be developed.   However, where I differ from you is about the composition of the combinations.   If part of the combinations fails over a period of time - should the player responsible for continuous failure not be replaced?   If so - when?

The problem obviously in a team sport is that individuals do not necessarily contribute to the total team effort - but individuals can make a mess destroying the whole team effort.   There has been individual players that destroyed the team effort over a five month period and when sent back to their provincial outfits contributed nothing to those outfits as well.   Should they still be in the team then? 

My problem is there are too many of the older Springboks that is not producing the goods at all - If theyounger players mess up they are dropped from the squad - why is there a need for a difference in approach between established and new players?


mozart

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 15:50:10

Mike....what I don't accept is the herd view. Jean is terrible....Fransie is the answer. And the persistence of that view . Jean had a poor campaign by his standards. He was less effective at 13 than I hoped and ordinary against the ABs at 12.

 

But he was still miles better than Frans and Taute. Check the stats.....those two fatties couldn't even manage 2 metres a carry. And everybody is still convinced Frans is the answer at 12. I would drop Jean if there was a better alternative, but there isn't. He remains a fast experienced player and our only centre who cracks gaps in test rugby.

 

What I don't want to do is drop one of the few players who can help those around him, for a youngster who will simply fail, like Taute did.

 

There are enough open slots.....15, 13, 10, 9, 2, 5, 7 and even 8.........for talented youngsters to contest. In fact far too many slots.


Saffex

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RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 15:56:05

Taute was the cause of one try against the AB's that does not define the player and nor does his great outing against Oz. What the Oz test did show, was that this kid has the aptitude for test rugby and any coach with substance would know that and give him a fair crack at establishing himself at 13 for the Boks.

If he fails after say 10 tests then fair enough. Taute wont fail as he is a class act, much like Fourie and Jean were in their day and much like Frans is now.

Yeah good old Jake with an average record and who was downright pathetic when it came to fringe players - look no further than Albert v/d Bergh and Adi Jacobs.

As for Destroyli he achieved nothing for he could not select or manage people - he was useless on every front


Saffex

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Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 15:57:55

Bull[removed] Jean was nowhere near better than Frans who had higher ratings than Jean in all the tests. Frans and JP were our best backs under Meyer.

Taute at 13 against Oz was better than Jean all year at 13 under Meyer - FACT


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 16:11:16

Mozart

Now we are getting nearer to the mark.   I agree with you whole-heartedly about De Villiers and I have also written repeatedly that Francois Steyn may not be the answer at all.   I think you are wrong about no 2 - Bismarck will be back next year and he is still rated the top hooker in the world.

I still believe that there may be some indications stemming from this tour that could indicate the way forward - but doubt it very much.   What should be done by Meyer should be to keep an [removed]ysis of all potenial players throughout the Super 15 series and then compare the results to see who are the best candidates for the open positions you are referring to.   After that he should assess how they will fit into the combintions and whether they even can fit in - some players may be top level individual contenders - but not able to fit into combinations.

Even though I think experience is invaluable - I am also worried about De Villiers.   He is not getting any younger and over the years his career was often affected by injuries.  It is an establsihed fact that older players get injured more frequently and require longer recovery periods than their younger counterparts .  Will De Villiers be able to survive another Super series without injury - that is the million dollar question?

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 16:29:56

A girl

I like Taute as a player - and has done so since he started playing for the Lions Super 15 team.   However, the kid has clearly stated his preference to play at full back - why try and force him into a position that apparently is not his first choice position?   I think it is normally the first choice position where players perform best.    I think in Super 15 he will play at full back for the Stormers and if he is very good in that position - which i dount not he will be - any idea of playing him at center will not be considered.

Francois Steyn has not impressed me at all - and he has a lot to prove in the upcoming  Super 15 series.   I frankly hope he makes the grade - if he plays crashball all the time - without the ability to off-load balls effciently - something that  happened in the tests this year - he should not be selected for the Springboks.   He will have to compete for selection like everyone else.   Mozart is correct - there are very few players that are clearcult choices - and Francois Steyn is not one of those.  

I stick with my previous argument - the guiding light in selections should be performance based and should eb dependent on Super 15 achievements. 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 17:38:30

Taute at 13 against Oz, was better than Jean all year? Hell he wasn't even as good as Jean against Oz and here are the facts to prove my point:

 

C Taute 0/0 0 0/2/7 15 0 2 0 2 7/0 0/0 0 0/0
C de Villiers 0/0 0 0/10/9 40 1 2 1 1 8/0 0/0 1 0/0

 

Jean made one more tackle, one clean break to none and gained 40 metres to Taute's 15..... at 4 metres plus a carry versus two metres a carry for Taute.

 

Game, set and match.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 17:45:16

Stats mean stuff all, Taute beat his man every time he challenged and then got caught by the second defender, all of this happened in traffic. Its called perspective, something the stats dont tell you. He also defended superbly.

Jean at 13 has not beat a single defender all year, has drifted giving the wings no space and has been porous in defense. Its easy to conclude that Taute was better than Jean at 13, it would not have taken much to achieve that.

Taute had a great debut at 13 - FACT


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 17:52:26

No Dave, Taute beat his man twice and Jea beat his man twice. The difference was Jean turned that into a clean break and metres gained. An inside step like Taute's rarely results in anything. The defender just lets the forwards mop it up and go for the turnover.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 18:15:04

Ah so one would conclude from your take that Jean was good at 13 when everyone knows differently, just like everyone praised and was impressed with Tautes showing against Oz


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 18:34:38

Well Dave the player himself, the coaches at WP and the Boks, and the fans think he should play fullback. You are of course convinced you are right......but I guess you'll just have to live with it. It's just your usual bs, the whole platoon is out of step, but you , Dave the U12 coaching genius, is in step. It would be funny if it wasn't so repetitive.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 19:09:30

He has said he wants to be considered at fullback for the Stormers as thats his only chance of making the starting 15

The fact that clowns like Meyer now want to play him at 15 is hardly definitive now is it? Meyer's record is crap so why should I take his calls seriously.

Taute would be good at 15, but my call is that we do not need him at 15 as we have Lambie at 15 for the Boks with Goosen at 10. Therefore the logical spot for Taute is 13 and thats where I would play him for since Fourie has left, we dont have an answer at 13.

Taute is the leading candidate in my opinion and no-one will convince me otherwise. If Meyer had any brains he would stick with Taute at 13


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 19:18:40

Ek

In response to you post higher up - yes I do believe these youngsters are ready for action and mostly as squad players. I have never said a player like Kitshoff is better than Beast, but he is a better option as a back-up to Beast than washed up Steenkamp is, who to add insult to injury is way out of physical shape playing in France.

Steph du Toit is back from injury and was called up to the Sharks CC final squad. Franco v/d Merwe is at best a CC standard player and 30 odd, so whats the point of investing in him as a back-up. Steph du Toit or Bresler are the answers. Jeandre Kruger has proved to be physically not up to the challenege of test rugby, so yes, I'd prefer to see a player like JA Marais given a go as a back-up. He has been damn good for the Sharks and brings physicality to the equation at 120kg's. He reminds me of Mostert.

So stuff this waiting around for the youngsters and giving them time, if they are good enough, they are old enough - Etzebeth, Coetzee and Goosen have already proved that.

It irritates the [removed] out of me seeing a coach bring back old farts like CJ and Steenkamp, its short sighted and backwards.

Who the hell mentioned Wepner, he is useless??

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 20:10:28

A girl

I know you like to players in different positions to those preferred by them - since you want to ceate space for other playes you like.   taute has gone public by saying what his preferred position is - and it seesm as if the two coaches concerned ahree with him.   Personally I think that you are flogging a dead horse here.    Taute himself is obviously not happy about the 13 position.

In the longer term we have a number of potentially goodplayers to replace the useless De Jongh.   Those include players like Jordaan (already an established Super 15 player), JP du Plessis, Pat Howard and Small-Smith.  All of these are very young players still - even Engelbrecht can up his game and come into the reckoning.

Insofar as the forwards are concerned I agree with you whole-heartedly.   The longer-term future real deal is Du Toit and even Marais.   I think Plumtree want to strengthen Du Toit's body and he used him in the Sharks Under 21 team.   He will definitely be in Super 15 next year and I am really looking forward to seeing him play.   I am sure he will make the grade and will become Etzebeth's lock partner sooner than most people expect.  

As to the props - I have never seen a bigger bugger-up with selections than the one made by Meyer insofar as the back-up props are concerned.   I donot rate Cilliers - but he is definitely better than Steenkamp and Van der Linde.   I myself would have preferred that the back-op props be Kitshoff and Malherbe and the likelihood of that happening next year is very high - unless Oosthuizen recovers completely and continue playing.   

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
October 31, 2012, 22:36:35

So we are going to select a guy at lock for the Springboks.....Steph du Toit, who is the real deal....but needs his body strengthened. I mean have you guys lost all your marbles?t


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 00:27:57

Mozart

Bad choice of words on my part.   The guy is already weighing  118 kgs  and very strong - I should rather have said more experience - he is a 20 year old and that would have helped any p[layer that age.  I saw him playing both lock and loosie in the Under 20 team and he was tops.

He is in the Sharks Super series squad and will get more game time.   Pleasse note that he has already been in the Sharks team - but he had a leg injury during his first game and aggravated that injury in the game against the Bulls - he has recovered completely from that one.

Just a reminder - before injury he played for the Sharks against the Bulls in Super 15 and in line-outs was better than either Kruger or Van der Merwe, whilst on the field of play - not bad at all for a youngster.

I know you really are opposed to most younger players - but this one has top player written all over him.   


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 10:22:46

All I can say Wigboy is that I hope HM leaves the mysterious "ghost cutter" out of his match squad!

 

U know who I mean.... the guy who "cut inside way too early" that led directly to Conrad Smiths try in the last SA v NZ test. Problem is we dont know who he is. We know its not Taute (who "planted") and u said it definately wasnt F Hougaard so I just hope this ghost player that no one else saw doesnt get on to the field and cost us tries again!!!

 

ROTFLMAO!!!!!


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 14:41:34

Mike you go one about the "useless de Jongh" when he probably won the CC. You appear to suffer from Dave's disease of not allowing what happens on the field to upset your preconceived notions about a player. .


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 15:32:18

That was probably de Jongh's only good game of the season - for the rest he has been a non entity.

And to think, Meyer is stupid enough to now want to start him at 13 for the Boks - its back to the bloody Adi Jacobs days.

I have a ticket for Twiickers on the 24th, I am not going to bother


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 15:40:56

Mozart

Any no 13 who manage to score 3 tries in 20 games and made no contribution to tries scored by other players - is defnitely not a house on fire - is he?   De Jongh is acceptable on CC level, inadequate on Super Series level and totally out of depth on international level.   I say adequate - since when he did form paty of the WP CC team - their backline scored less tries than when he did not play.

I give him credit for the try he scored in the CC final - but where was the rest of tries scored by him?  Against the Lions in the semi - he knocked on two balls that could have led to tries.   in 15 games on Super Series level - he scored only 2 tries - both in the match against the Rebels - one of the weakest teams in Super 15.   He in both cases got the ball with an open tryline in front of him - no real defenders in sight.

The only opportunity he had to score in the Aussie test he fluffed badly.

He never once in Super 15 made a line break - was tackled easily and in most cases there were  either a handover of the ball to the opposition or a penalty against the Stormers.

The term useless is perhaps putting it too strongly - he is downright poor in attack and not adeqaute to play on international level.  Perhapos I should rather use the word inadequate.

I fail to see how anybody with real knowledge of rugby can state otherwise after they have actually carefully [removed]ysed his performances  on Super 15 level in particular.

My only advice is - watch him carefully against the irish - [removed]yze his performance and then consider it yourself and see whether you are really satisfied with what he produces.  


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 16:05:03

"clever"mike u better add me to the list of those with no real knowledge of rugby cuz I think Juan de Jongh is a test quality centre and Im no WP fan. Him and Gio Aplon are both underrated and they both gutsy defenders and great attackers.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 16:23:17

Jalap

Everyone has a different idea about players - and you are obviously entiled to your own ideas and at liberty to post them.   I always try and explain why I have some ideas about specific players - based on how see the performances in games - but others have  different outlooks - and that is what nakes discussions worthwhile.   If everyone thinks alike - the world would be a very uninteresting place. 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 17:07:50

So Dave, you are not going to Twickenham to watch the Boks, because you think Juan de Jongh is  playing centre.  Not much of a Bok fan are you?


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 17:39:05

No, cant be asked travelling all that way to watch a Bok side with Pienaar at 9, Morne at 10, Jean at 12 and de Jongh at 13............I'd rather endure that pain in front of the telly. That side is not getting my monies worth - stuff it.............it reminds of the days when we had to endure the likes of Braam at 10 or v/d Bergh at lock.

Meyer is on the road to nowhere and its pisses me off given the talent we have at our disposal


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 19:20:43

Well I guess you're right Dave....it is a long trip from your shack back to civilization.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 19:23:28

Yep am not paying £100 to watch that sideshow. My shack will do the trick


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 19:33:38

So you think the Boks will lose...even be humiliated?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13133
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 22:03:32

Mozart

We very nearly lost the game in PE - thanks largely to some established players and having a dud as prop on the bench.   Meyer has learnt nothing from that fiasco p remember how the crowd boo-ed Norne Steyn - because of his atrocious performance.  The only saving grace was a brilliant piece of work by Pienaar - cut out all the duds on display in the backline and pass directly to Pietersen,

If Meyer plays the out-of-form Steyn, the seriously inadequate De Jongh, and the average De Villiers in the backline - it would indeed be a "dead" backline.   We will be able to compete with the POMS on the forwards performances - but the moment the bench players are brought on - espeially the props - we are dead and buried. 

Yes - a loss is on the cards - I only hope it is not too bad a loss,


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 01, 2012, 23:50:34

Okay so I have you Mike and Dave betting on a Bok loss at Twickenham. Noted.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 11:16:32

Yeah good chance we will lose this one, given the poor squad selected and the fact that Meyer is a one dimensional coach


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12194
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 12:53:31

Noted.

Are these three pessimists expecting us to lose all three games then as England maybe the toughest?


chiproll

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 28
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 14:23:15

no i think the boks will wen 3-0 against the north. whe have good players to do that and i belief in the squad


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 14:52:22

Mike and Dave.....what a mournful combo...hahaha.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 16:16:16

Rich coming from you Moz given how negative you are about 90% of our players


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8893
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 16:55:07

But never negative about the Boks Dave.....there's the difference.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9473
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 18:44:31

I'm negative about their prospects given the coach and the poor squad selected. Its extremely frustrating watching a man with the record he had coming into the job, do our cause the injustice we are witnessing.

How on earth do you deliver so little when faced with so much talent? Hell we had 3 of our S15 sides end up in the top 5 of the log. The only players missing are Habana, Frans, Goosen, Bismark, Coenie, Bekker, Kolisi, Elstadt and Brussouw.......of which Frans, Goosen, Bismark and Bekker are vital.

The man has no excuse and how he produced the results with the Bulls as he did is beyond me. Says more for the players he had at his disposal than his credentails as a coach........it would have been difficult  getting it wrong with the younger versions of Habana, du Preez, Steenkamp, Bakkies, Matfield, Russouw and Spies


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 22:02:05

Clevermike, if u r as enlightened as u claim 2 be & if u so tolerant about other ppls opinions then u shdnt say stuff like “I fail to see how anybody with real knowledge of rugby can say otherwise” (where "otherwise" means an opinion diffrent 2 yrs) cuz that makes u sound very intolerant & arrogant insted.


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Who did Meyer leave out....that will make a difference.
November 02, 2012, 23:36:43

STF up Jalapeno. You know that Maaikie is the sherriff of the board. And he was asked to deliver papers for the UN. Watch out, just now he gets you banned.


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