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2855 Topic: Form players
Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
Form players
October 30, 2012, 00:55:56

How on earth did form players like Ludik, Jordaan, Reinach, Kitshoff, Malherbe, M.v/d Merwe, Deon Fourie, CJ Stander and Bresler not get a look in ahead of the likes of washed up hasbeens or neverbeens like Jean, CJ, Steenkamp, Cilliers and Franco v/d Merwe


Arthur John

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 650
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 01:07:03

 When you have a coaching team/selection crew looking at players...you need them to be objective and select the best.

Unfortunately when you have a bunch of P#*&^s performing that task of selecting you end up with a group of P#*&^s being included in the squad.

Old story garbage in = garbage out.

HM is showing a side that we were not aware of earlier...........


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 01:47:28

Agreed AJ, I really thought Meyer was the real deal - he is anything but. Hell even PDV made better calls!!!


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3709
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 04:05:02

CJ has long since past it. He would not even finish a test without getting injured. CJ cant even play curry cup level let alone test level without getting injured. 

Cilliers should never have been in the team. I thought the reason that both of these players were selected as they can play on both sides of the scrum. However this is no longer needed as two props are now included on the bench as part of the 8 reserves. 

The WP front row(kitchoff and Malherbe) should be in the team not these 2. 

Steenkamp I think was the best loosehead prop in the world a few years ago, I am not sure what he plays like now though.

 

Franco van der merve is taking Breslers place,

 

 

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8748
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 04:12:09

The WP front row? Hell as a WP fan I couldn't support that. When Jannie and the Beast were giving it a go, they decimated Kitshoff and Malherbe. What are you thinking?


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3709
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 04:39:17

 For the bench. (For all of my starting xv- I allways have Beast and Jannie in the starting team)

I would have the Sharks front row in the starting XV.

I would have all of the WP front row on the bench. 

Deon Fourie can cover both open side flank and and hooker.

If Bismark was fit I would start the whole Sharks front row, and have Straus on the bench. Deon Fourie would stil be must reserver number 6 in this instance.

 

The Sharks front row is stronger, but apart from a couple of scrums the Stormers front row did allright. They even had scrums in the 2nd half when they gained parity and even slightly got the better shoulder. They are still kids and will get stronger. I would still rather have them on the bench to get experience.

No point having the broken down CJ who will never be around for the next world cup. I would rather choose the form players, especially if their opposite number is never going to be around for the next worldcup


mozart

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Posts: 8748
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 05:33:18

That assumes Jannie doesn't get hurt. I think these guys have to prove they can take the pressure....Malherbe in particular looks way too easy to fold.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12964
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 06:07:23

Mozart

Talking of "folding" did you actually watch the CC Final?   It happened on two occassions that the Stormer forwards folded in the scrummaging as you put it.   I think Peyper caused the one situation by insisting that WP forwards must go into the scrum higher than they would have done under normal cir[removed]stances because the scrum collapsed twice.   That after Peyper refused to penalize the Beast for not binding and pressing with one hand on the grass.   The second time was not so obvious.

However, towards the end of the game the Stormers won a tighthead by pushing back the much-vaunted Springbok forwards.   On the whole I would not call it folding.   In any event we saw much more of Malherbe in particular and also Kitshoff in ball carrying in tight phases and in legal tackling.  There was only two cases of tackling by Du Plessis  - both leading to warnings by the referee, whilst there in fact was virtually no tackling by the Beast.    No ball carrying by Du Plessis and only two cases  involving th Beast.

I think forward play was in fact where the Sharks lost the game - so I think you are merely looking at the two scrums mentioned - not the game as a whole.

      


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 13:21:59

The issue with the WP scrum in the final was the inclusion of 99kg Skara at hooker and the lightweight de Kock Steenkamp at lock.

To Kitshoff and Malherbe's credit, they still took the heat pretty well, especially as the game marched on.

As per usual Moz's take on prop play is way off and he never takes perspective into consideration at all.

Kitshoff and Malherbe have been good for WP all season and far better bets than hasbeens like CJ and Steenkamp or a neverbeen like Cilliers.

But good old Moz has to take the contrary view, only he would want to see CJ and co on board - its figures. Why not call BJ Botha that would have made Moz's day.

I just dont get the logic here. We have in[removed]bents in Beast and Jannie who are damn good. The obvious choice for back-ups on tour would be our young props coming through like Kitshoff, Malherbe and Marcel v/d Merwe.............how on earth a coach can select CJ, Steenkamp and Cilliers is beyond comprehension.......that selection in itself sums Meyer up to a T - the guy has no idea, much like the Moz mindset


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11999
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 13:59:49

Can anybody tell us how good Steenkamp is these days. If he is playing well then his selection is okay. Marcell van der merwe is I believe injured. Franco is about equivalent to Bressler and is better in the lineouts. 

I fully agree with Sharkboks take and Mike as well. Snapster is correct re the lightweights scurra and Steenkamp and hence my comment that with Bekker and Liebenberg our scrum will be pretty good. Scurra played well however as did Steenkamp and our scrum was more competent than I had hoped. Certainly Kitshoff and Malherbe had very good work rates outside the scrum. They will be challenging Beast and Jannie hard next year for sure.

Personally I do not mind that Malhebe and Kitshoff are not going as they will benefit hugely from the rest period and be set up for a big 2013.  That we only have 4 in the squad is due to injuries to Bekker, Liebenberg and Schalk Burger and players deemed too young. Al lgood for the Stormers!

Etzebeth is being overplayed and one hopes he is not played in all the NH tests.

I heard Louw may miss the tour? That would be another blow but also another opportunity for Meyer to select Deon Fourie. There was also also be a 32nd squad member - that must be Jordaan.

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 14:05:39

Steenkamp looks like he has been eating everything that moves in France.

Bresler is far better than Franco, no contest - not to mention the fact that Franco is now an old man


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 14:06:41

he has been playing well in the french top 14 beeno. but in my view not more so than joe van niekerk, bakkies or the other overseas. brian mujati for me has been on a great form but yet he does not get lured back to SA.

 

louw's injury is not major. its not as bad as thought so they accourding to gary gold will monitor his workload. he will be ready for the irish tests i am quite sure. fourie would be a logical choice until brussouw is ready to take up his mantle again


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 14:07:35

he has been playing well in the french top 14 beeno. but in my view not more so than joe van niekerk, bakkies or the other overseas. brian mujati for me has been on a great form but yet he does not get lured back to SA.

 

louw's injury is not major. its not as bad as thought so they accourding to gary gold will monitor his workload. he will be ready for the irish tests i am quite sure. fourie would be a logical choice until brussouw is ready to take up his mantle again as the premier open sider.

 

@beeno really glad to see you have come around to the idea of a true open sider in a team. glad to see some things in this world change :P


clevermike

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Posts: 12964
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 14:14:47

Beeno

I think you are correct as to your assessment of Kitshoff and Malherbe - but also agree that WP needed a stronger player at Hooker.   However, I dount very much whether Etzebeth would be rested at all - if he is it would lead to another disaster in the Meyer mindset.   He will have to play - whether there is hell or high water insofar as Meyer is concerned.

If Louw is to be replaced it will have to be a loosie coming on board.   What will happen virtually automatically is that Coetzee will be moved to the starting line-up and there would be a vacancy on the bench.   Whether it will be Foruie is really doubtful - Meyer is not known as a coach that would make logical selections.  The likely selection would be Stander - especially in view of hi Bulls background.

The 32nd player was supposed to be in place of Habana.   Again the selection would be based on Meyer's view on players and that is bound to be either Basson or Engelbrecht.   Definitely not Jordaan.   I personally think that players are indeed lucky if they miss out on Meyer's selection strategy - bad performance by the crazy team of Meyer can ruin their careers.   They should rather wait until we get a coach that knows what he is doing - not one that is all mixed up. 


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 15:05:02

carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 881
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 14:06:41


brian mujati for me has been on a great form but yet he does not get lured back to SA.

 

 

 

Brian Mujati will only play for SA again when he goes back, completes his time and gets an SA passport. SARU and the govt has closed that gate. Remember when Beast could not play because they have decided that he has to have passport? Mujati played for SA when he had a work permit, and even that was dodgy. He has a Zim passport.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8748
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 15:08:55

Oh so now the WP front row suffered because of a light weight lock? But Etzebeth was behind Malherbe who the Beast folded like a paper carton. My guess is there is no harder scrumming lock in the game.

 

No the only time WP looked comfortable in the scrums was when Jannie left and the Beast started running out of steam, as he does after 60 minutes. This wasn't WP showing they were at parity...it was the Sharks losing their edge.

 

It's ironical that a Brits supporter should complain about a small hooker causing a scrumming problem. Just the usual confused, inconsistent thinking. Here's the real truth....scrumming in NH tests is a real contest. We have found that out in the past eg when BJ rescued our catastrophic scrum of few years back. Malherbe may look the part and Kitshoff does nice things outside the scrum. They aren't ready for NH test scrumming. And we had better hope we don't have to play a half with Brits at hooker....that would be another disaster.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 15:52:36

Yes the WP scrum suffered as they had a small hooker and lock. Man Moz your ignornace is shinning bright..........so you think one physical lock like Etzebeth nullifies the fact that the other lock is a liability in the scrums and therefore Malherbe should have stood firm because Etzebeth was behind him......last I checked a scrum was made up of a 8 man unit........but hey you are an authority.

Fact is the WP scrum has stood firm all season, in particular when Liebenberg was at 2 and Bekker at lock, so bang goes your theory and assessment of these two young props scrumming abilities. Kitshoff stood firm all S15. These two kids are our future. Hell its plain to see you know stuff all about props, hell you told us Mujati was suspect, Steenkamp and CJ in their day were no good in your eyes and useless BJ was our saviour........sounds much like your take on centres.......Fourie was crap in your eyes, but Adi Jacobs was the real deal!!

As for Brits, my call has always been to play him off the bench - FACT.......so yes the current WP hooker is a liability physically and that was evidenced by the WP scrumming performance........the same scrum that stood firm against the Sharks with Liebenberg at 2 - you getting the picture here? I guess not  - but as I keep saying you know stuff all about props, locks, centres and the likes - Adi Jacobs, BJ Botha - need I say anymore?

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8748
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 16:31:34

No Dave, you need to say less. For example, the phrase is "shining bright". The catastrophic irony of somebody who says another's ignorance is "shinning through" is too laughable to leave uncorrected.

 

Let's talk about Kitshoff. He is a loosehead prop, on the side that applies pressure. I saw a bit of the CC action and most of the S15 games. I never saw him apply pressure once. Compare him with a young Heinke van der Merwe or Coenie. Those guys had games where they hurt the opposing scrum. Young blockbuster looseheads do that. Kitshoff will never be a big scrummager, that leaves him as a scrumming neutral. Not good enough in a scrumming world where looseheads are the destructive force.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 16:55:12

Heinke v/d Merwe - say no more

And for the record its the tighthead that applies the pressure - good one Moz

Kitshoff is 19 and has stood firm all year - that is prospect for you at that tendure age.

Your ignorance is shinning bright


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12964
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 16:59:30

Mozart

I wrote previously that throughout the final there wer two scrums where the Stormers forwards scrummed  badly - the one where Peyper intefered and forced the props to go into the scrum higher than usual.  You based your whole assessment on those two scrums it seems to me.   In all other scrums the Stormers stood firm and got good balls.   There was a number of occurences where Beast did not bind and pushed his one hand on the ground.   That really showed some difficulties encountered by him - even the commentators said he should have been penalized for that.

Your asessment once when CJ van der Linde came on for 10 inutes was to praise him outright - but he cannot play for even ten minutes.  I would rather play Malherbe and Kitshoff  ahead of the useless Van der Linde, Cilliers and the grossly overweight Steenkamp any day.

It is no use to keep on believing in pasy Springboks way past their proime and at this stage not performing at all as if they are the future of SA Rugby.   You seem to think like Meyer in such a case - and if the tour is unsuccessful - the chances of Meyer getting the boot is very, very good.   The real reason would be his crazy selection norms.

  


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12964
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 16:59:31

Mozart

I wrote previously that throughout the final there wer two scrums where the Stormers forwards scrummed  badly - the one where Peyper intefered and forced the props to go into the scrum higher than usual.  You based your whole assessment on those two scrums it seems to me.   In all other scrums the Stormers stood firm and got good balls.   There was a number of occurences where Beast did not bind and pushed his one hand on the ground.   That really showed some difficulties encountered by him - even the commentators said he should have been penalized for that.

Your asessment once when CJ van der Linde came on for 10 inutes was to praise him outright - but he cannot play for even ten minutes.  I would rather play Malherbe and Kitshoff  ahead of the useless Van der Linde, Cilliers and the grossly overweight Steenkamp any day.

It is no use to keep on believing in pasy Springboks way past their proime and at this stage not performing at all as if they are the future of SA Rugby.   You seem to think like Meyer in such a case - and if the tour is unsuccessful - the chances of Meyer getting the boot is very, very good.   The real reason would be his crazy selection norms.

  


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8748
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 17:29:11

Dave you moron, you are confusing "getting right shoulder" with applying the pressure. It's true that a right wheel is sometimes an advantage to create space....hence the "right shoulder". But in modern rugby loosehead dominance is the ticket. That's why playing tighthead is  the hardest of all scrumming roles. Malherbe has zero chance of surviving against a big scrumming team.....and Kitshoff has the same chance of applying pressure.

 

Mike honestly, just because you are tired of an older player like Steenkamp,  is no justification for leading a lamb like Kitshoff to slaughter.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9311
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 19:05:49

Ah so in your wonderful rugby brain, the tighthead does not apply pressure, its only the loosehead - what team you been coaching lately?

As for Malherbe and Kitshoff - I recall you saying the same about Jannie a few years back - you changed your mind then?

Malherbe and Kitshoff are still babies and better placed than many of our previous props at the same age. I have every faith in these two plus a host of others to take us forward - if only our clueless coach would select them instead of making pathetic calls like washed up CJ and Steenkamp. These guys are about as useful as Jean is at centre or Morne is at 10 these days. They are done


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12964
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 20:16:40

Mozart

Although I do watch a lot of games in France and saw one in which Steenkamp played - I cannot remember him doing anything special- even in scrumming - and he was not as fit as he used to be.   I consequently accepted  Dave's comment about the fact that he is overweight and not really fit.   CJ van der Linde is not even fit enough toi play for 30 minutes - him I saw when he came on a number of times - definitely not tp to standard.

It is not an ahe issue at all - it is their capacity to perform on international level and in the case of Van der Linde on Super 15 and CC level - that indicates they are past it and not really up to standard.   Age is one issue - physical ability another one.  If they don't perform  adequately - that remains the key.   Nobody would say those two perform adequayely to qualify them for higher selection.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8748
RE: Form players
October 30, 2012, 21:59:00

Dave I hope you haven't been coaching your U12 looseheads to not apply pressure. As for Gurthro being overweight......you old kettleblack, I'm sure he would crush Malherbe. Did you ever think about playing prop?


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