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2853 Topic: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3800
Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 29, 2012, 17:41:20

Is it already time to replace Meyer? The year started off with so much optimisim, that we finally had what everyone or most thought to be the best coach in South Africa. After 4 long years PDV we now had a coach that was of international standard.

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 However it seems that Meyer should have become coach in 2008 after White lost the job. This is when he had all the Bulls players in their prime. Now Meyer has become coach most of the Bulls are retired, playing over seas or hopelessly out of form.

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Was Meyer overrated? DId his success in the SuperXV just come down to having the best pack of forwards in the SuperXV that had more first choice internationals than any country? 

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Having the best lineout forward in the world in Matfield that made a kicking game work in the Superxv because of so many turnovers at the lineouts.

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is Meyer just stuck in his own way of doing this and just to stubborn or incapable of doing anything else? " This is how we done it at the Bulls" Even his player selection somehow manages to be more Bulls players than the current teams getting results- Sharks and Stormers.

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The defensive system at the Bulls has not been good, and instead of using Nienabaar the best defensive coach in the world, we are stuck with another bulls approach of John Mcfarland. 

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Is it to early to make a judgement? Or is the end of the year too early to get a new coach. John Plumtree would be the best coach to manage the boks. he is also foreign so would probably not get tagged with the racist card when making selections like Jake White was. He could be the first foreigh coach for the boks but he understands South African rugby so he would be well suited making a game plan that works and selection the players who can achieve this.

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allblacknblue

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 233
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 29, 2012, 18:16:47

I agree, bring back PDV while your at it!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9507
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 29, 2012, 19:09:28

Yeah if we lose one test on tour sack him and give the job to Mallet


allblacknblue

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 233
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 29, 2012, 19:12:47

Beano for bokke coach?


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 29, 2012, 19:13:38

Yeah right, and then if we lose the next test, fire Mallett and appoint Plumtree, and if we lose the next test, fire Plumtree and appoint whoever. Maybe we should have a team of coaches with a bench of coaches ready to take over as well.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13151
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 29, 2012, 19:53:23

I enjoy this discussion.  Can remember how Mallet and his clique carried on after Du Plessis was in charge for two months  and the Boks lost four tests and then won two with record scoring results - so as to get Mallet as coach.  Mallet made a remarkable success of using the team put together by Du Plessis to win 15 tests in a row and his luck ran out when he - as clueless as Meyer - he had to start making changes to the team he inherited.  I said he was clueless - he had no idea about backline play and that is where he ultimately flopped as badly as Meyer did.

Now lets face facts - Meyer is really clueless on selection of players.   If he is to continue the results over the next 18 month will be catastrophic.   I would think that of the SA coaches - Plumtree is by far the best.   I think chances are that Meyer will be fired sooner than most people think - and then we may get a decent coach.  


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 29, 2012, 20:10:21

And Plumtree understands backline play? Lambie - fullback, centre, flyhalf. JPP - fullback, wing, centre. Brent Russel - wherever. Ruan Pienaar - scrumhalf, fullback. Ludik - fullback, wing. Terblanche - fullback, wing, inside centre, outside centre. Michalak - scrumhalf, flyhalf. Viljoen - flyhalf, fullback. Etc etc tec


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13151
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 00:23:06

Bongani

I do believe that Plumtree did experiment with backline players on rare occassions - but he was largely consitent in his selections and the Sharks have an excellent winning record.   

Meyer did not experiment - he was too clueless for that. 


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 00:28:44

Bongani, that just shows the versatility of the players. They play where needed. All those players you just mentioned are all class acts. You would not do that with guys like Whitehead, Mvovo and the likes but those players above are all internationals (with exception of Ludik who should be a Bok) because they are "special" players and they understand the game well enough to make an impact from almost anywhere in the back line. The switch between fullback and wing is hardly worth a mention though. It is a relatively easy transition.

 

Mallett was not all he was cracked up to be. The men we need were fired after 2007..White and Jones..2 forward thinkers that brains are no doubt shaped like a rugby ball. With those two at the helm, I guarantee we would have seen bok rugby go from strength to strength since 2007... When it is not international season, they should be involved with super rugby franchises and mentoring the up and coming coaches to think like them and instill total rugby back into SA rugby. Heyneke Meyer was never going to be the man to do this. We compete with the AB's all game until their backs get the ball. We do not have the right players or coaching to change that now.

 

Goosen throws the ball around for the cheetahs (who let me add lost the majority of their games in super rugby) and all of a sudden he is the best thing since sliced bread...He is a good player and needs to be in the Bok set up but as back up to Lambie. He has too many flaws at the moment that make Lambie a better all round player. Lambie's kicking out of hand is by far the best of any other SA pivot (he doesnt just hit and hope, he has a big boot and tactical brain) and he attacks the advantage line when it is on.

Hougaard should be in some high intensity training camp with Joost, Gregan, Du Preez or Justin Marshall because we dont have the talent in the country to coach him. Its clear he is a number 9 but he needs direction..From Loubscher??He couldnt even teach a school boy fullback..

 

What happened to that inside ball that Eddie Jones instilled and the Aussies use to great success. It cut england open for 36-0 and Argentina in the Semi's.. Now its gone. Big guys like JP Pietersen, Frans Steyn (12), Taute (15) or Habana running that line to an inside ball done in the oppositions face will definately bring big metre gains and ultimately tries. Our backs are so predictable and just shovel the ball to their outside until they run out of space and winger has to kick or cut inside to be met by 3 defenders. Absolutely no thinking going on there. That is a coaching blunder. With Eddie and Jake, the field looked 200m wide. So much space. With Heyneke, it looks like a Sunday church congregation..No space. Just people everywhere and defensive teams are licking their lips...

 

With an inside ball stopping defenders just drifting with our line it creates so many options. The inside man may be tackled well over the advantage line but then he has options of either shoulder. Defenders will need to come inside creating space outside. If they dont come inside and carry on drifting, they create space for attack through the middle. Look how the AB's keep the ball alive. They are doing simply that with straight running.. When are we gona wake up. It took an Aussie in Eddie to show us how and we fired him!!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9507
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 00:47:40

No Bong, we just need to select a coach who can as a minimum get the basics right - that starts with team/squad selection and moves on to being in tune with modern day structures and patterns - Meyer seems adrift on both levels


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 05:47:08

Besides Bongani, Plumtree has got the Sharks to a few finals in his time so I dont think he is too bad in his understanding of the game. On average, I would think the Sharks have been the best performing SA team since he took over.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13151
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 06:37:55

In summary - I am convinced that Carel Du Plessis was fired for less and after a shorter term as coach than Meyer would have.   At least Du Plessis had too content with the Three-Nations and the British Lions.  The Boks lost five matches - the one loss against the Lions entirely due to the fact that Honeyball could not convert the three tries scored by the Springboks virtually from in front of the posts and missed two easy penalty kicks as well.   He ended with two record wins against Australia and the British Lions.   At least he did not have any easier teams like Argentina to contend with.

Now lets look at Meyer.   Two rather narrow wins against a weakish POM team in a rebuilding phase and a draw.   A win against Argentina and a draw, followed by a two losses against the All Blacks and a win and loss against the Wallabies - the latter definitely not by a record breaking margin.

I still maintain that Du Plessis had a much better basis for team selection - as was proved by the performances  of the team basically put together by him when Mallet was coach.    Compared to Du Plessis insofar as team selection is concerned - Meyer is completely clueless.

If Du Plessis was fired - why not Meyer?          


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 10:01:34

Bongani, that just shows the versatility of the players.

 

The standard excuse of the Sharks fans.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 10:32:29

@mike yes old carel was fired for way less and in those days he progressed more that what old meyer has done now to be honest. if carel was given the type of support that meyer and jake was given than things would have been a lot different.

 

i really want meyer to get the boot


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5868
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 21:03:55

wether u like it or not, it will take a season worse then 2012 next year before questions start to be taken seriously about meyres tenure.
but heres something that i do find a little baffaling, there has been sooooooo many arguments about the RWC being the be all end all of rugby, so if this is the case and given the nature of injuries that the Boks have suffered this year, hasnt it really been a godd year for the Boks??? after all these results are mute compared to the results in 2015 that the Boks are building for.

now this isnt my point of view BTW, cos IMO the RWC is overrated and i would be devestated if the ABs produced results like the Boks have the last 10 years, because for me, every test is a RWC final, but hey each to their own i guess.
all im saying is give meyer a chance, cos if he wins the RWC which is a very real possibilty, then all will be forgiven and he would have done more then break even.

 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8923
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 21:33:52

Well what is Meyer's record? Blu Bool coach from 2000 to 2007....they were about as bad as any team through 2004. In 2005 and 2006 they made the semi's on the back of Matfield, Botha, F du Preez and eventually Habana. They won the whole thing in 2007, with NZ teams out of it because of their RWC rest period.....defeating the Sharks.

 

Then he had a half season at Leicester and this disappointing start at the Boks.

 

One might conclude he succeeded when he had a great team.

 

But then there is Mallett....who was gifted strong Bok momentum, road it the remainder of the way to a 17 match streak. Then he lost  the plot and had two very poor seasons.....what is he going to add 12 years later?

 

The fact is Meyer has had a lot of serious injuries to contend with.....he will stay on at least until the end of next year. I hope he gets some help in the assistant coaches area.......he hasn't got state of the art colleagues.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 22:05:59

Bongani, I am actually starting to doubt your knowledge of the game. Seems all you are about is disagreeing with other bloggers. In what way is my comment about versatility an excuse? An excuse for what? Sharks lost the Super final and Currie Cup final and I said fair play to both Chiefs and Province. Sharks didnt deserve to beat them on the day.

 

I have read your little one line reply and tried to make sense of it but I just cant. Please point out the excuse? Is the excuse that we may shift players in position when necessary but still make two finals in one year? Your point has been squashed right there!

 

The Lions play Taute at 13 and 15, James at 10 or 12, Coetzee on the wing or 15 and they were almost finalists for the 2nd year in a row. You dont know what you are talking about man. I am yet to see you agree with anyone.

 

Sasuke, you are right in respect of the RWC. The tri-nations / Rugby Championship has much less hype around it but that to me is the real WC. The best 3 teams in the world, home and away, no easy matches there and thats why it pisses me off when SA send a "b" team to NZL in the year of the WC to wrap our "a" players in cotton wool. If you look at the WC in 07" and 11", SA only realistically had 1 game they could have lost and that was in the final against England but judging by the pool game, that was unlikely. NZL in 11' only really had Aus in semi-finals that should have been a threat to them in Southern hemisphere conditions. The Northern Hemisphere teams just arent up to it, especially in NZL and judging by the pool game against France, they did it a little harder in the final than they should have but they got the job done.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13151
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 22:22:33

Mozart

My problem is not with Meyer the person - it is with two issues, namely -

*   his coaching staff that he picked himself - it was not forced onto him; and

*   his insistence on picking incompetent and out-of-form players - mostly with Blue Bull connections.

I wrote elesewhere about the issue of his preference for Blue Bull players and provided a list of them.   In six months he picked a full team of Blue Bull players - all had a chance - most of them failed badly.   I say he did select all Blue Bull players that virtully made up the full Blue Bulls team.   Lets look at them again:-

15   -   Kirchner

14   -   Hougaard

13  -    Engelbrecht

12  -    Olivier

11  -    ??? - if he ws available Basson - would have been in like flint.

10  -    Steyn

 9  -     Vermaak

 8  -     Spies

 7  -     Potgieter

 6  -     Botha

 5  -    Van der Merwe

 4  -     Kruger 

 3  -     Kruger

 2  -     Ralepelle

  !  -     Greyling

If Basson was not injured he would have been guaranteed selection as well.

This while the Blue Bulld showed average form in the Super 15 series and poor form on CC level.   His whole support staff also came from the Bulls.   The real question is - is he the Bulls coach or the Springbok coach?  Be it as it may some of the above is not in the present squad with 8 Bull players - because of injuries.   Basson - Potgieter and Spies would have been in the squad - but for thir present injuries.   Only three was omitted because of rank incompetence (W Kruger, Greyling and Engelbrecht).   Olivier left for Japan and is out of the present crowd.   Despite gross incompetence and poor form of virtually all the players - most are still in the squad.   

Is the franchise with a average to poor record in the Super 15 series and CC compeititon really worthy of being the top feeder of players for the Springbok team??????

Most of the above players made a huge mess as was to be expected and none of them was definitely really selectable.   Meyer used the injury excuse regularly - but why did he stick to the Bulls and not chose other inform players from other franchises instead of his Bull favourites?

When he looked at other fanchises he showed poor selection tendencies as well.   The only other franchise with major representation in the squad are the Sharks.   here he for flase reasons refuse to recognize as a top player and kept him on the bench with virtually no playing time allowed.   I must admit most of the other Shark players are in on merit and they did not really let the team down.

The Stormers whose performance was top of the log in the Super Series, they won the Vodacomn Cup and the CC - yet they have only four players in the squad.   Two of them was absent from the CC campaign - but when they returned backline attacking performances  in fact declined.   The two was really not the form players in any of the competitions and their selection is also subject to serious questioing.

Aside from that - his selection of poor and out of form players are virtually guaranteed.

His selection policy is as clear as mud - his game plan virtually non-existent - since it depends on the performance of incompetent players selected by him in the first instance and the performances are in fact deteriorating - not improving.  I nelieve he is only relly interested in high kick and charge - not any form of attacking back line play in any event - hence his "love affair" with Morne Steyn. 

Further losses in the forthcoming tour will as far as I am concerned  be the final nail in his coffin.   The whole mess is entirely his fault - nobody elses.   In any event the whole thing stinks to high heaven and the sooner the circus stops - the better will it be for SA Rugby.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13151
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 22:22:34

Sorry - Duplication


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3800
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 22:43:18

 The Worldcup is only good for the purpose of cycles.

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It is about peaking every 4 years, which is an ongoing process of improvement.  It should not be used as an excuse for losses.

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Peaking is about a cycle of improvement which means a higher win to loss ratio each year. 

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The PDV and Straeuli quotes of "judge me by my world cup performance"  is crap. 

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Teams should go out to win everygame and improve until peaking at the World Cup. 

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New coach at the start of the 4 year cycle- if the previous coach did not win the world cup or/and not improved enough every 4 years.

If a coach is not enough improvement they should be removed much faster, to allow time for the next coach to build and peak for the world cup. 

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Also retiring of older players in the squad.

I am not in favour of chosing a player who  is like 35 years old, one year after a world cup unless they are in exceptional form.

The 1st year after a world cup should be the rebuilding year as many retirements, new coach etc

However if after the 1st year the new coach has not got to a decent standard where they team will continue to improve, it is time to consider a new coach.

Meyer I think is just to stubborn in his way of thinking and will allways choose Bulls players in 50/50 situations or even when other players are clearly better than Bulls

At present winning the 4 nations is a better achievement than winning the World cup.

This is due to the depth in world rugby compared to the Football Worldcup where many countries play of a high standard.

William Webb should also be disposed off, and the whole format of the world cup should be changed to ensure that who ever wins beats all the strong teams at least once.  

France made the World Cup final in the last tournament and their form in the World Cup and the last 4 years did not justify this. 


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 23:17:46

Boklogic

Status: Squad member
Posts: 242
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 22:05:59


Bongani, I am actually starting to doubt your knowledge of the game. Seems all you are about is disagreeing with other bloggers. In what way is my comment about versatility an excuse? An excuse for what? Sharks lost the Super final and Currie Cup final and I said fair play to both Chiefs and Province. Sharks didnt deserve to beat them on the day.

 

I have read your little one line reply and tried to make sense of it but I just cant. Please point out the excuse? Is the excuse that we may shift players in position when necessary but still make two finals in one year? Your point has been squashed right there!................................................................

 

 

Ou Visbok, the few times when you asked for something more, and I gave it to you vanished into thin air. The Brits story for example. Djy het gehol soos 'n klein hondjie met terpentyn in sy hol. Now you are challenging me on my stance after a tongue in cheeck remark about the Sharks. Are you denying that players have been shifted from pilar to post at the Sharks on a regular basis over the years? Do you want some more examples? Why did Ruan Pienaar move to Ireland? Go read his advice to Pat Lambie a few days ago.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3800
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 30, 2012, 23:23:58

 Bongani, you have copied and pasted another bloggers comments- But you are addressing them to me?  Can you not see the bloggers comments is from Boglogic? 

Are you possibally drunk or something?


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 31, 2012, 10:38:33

Ou Visbok, everybody makes a little mistake from time to time. It was my turn this time around. I beg your forgiveness. Please do not run to the ed and have me banned for that. I ask you with tears in my eyes. My sincerest apologies to Boklogic for confusing the two of you just because you use the same type of wishy washy arguments although you both seem to think that you have a wealth of knowledge and insight in the game of rugby. More than the average poster on the forum. OK, maybe not as much as the clever one, who has addressed the UN.

 

BTW. How about Schalk Brits, while we are at it.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1978
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 31, 2012, 10:46:07

 Bongani, I have never argued with you. You are not worth it..You dont have your own opinions, you are stat googler and try pass yourself off as being so in touch with the game. You just disagree with everyone even though you are very wrong most times!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13151
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 31, 2012, 10:47:53

Bongani

Please get your facts right.  I never addressed the UN - I was invited to deliver papers at two conferences organized by the UN - one in Engalnd and one in Germany.   Huge difference.    

Get that thing right - please.  

I always apologize when i am factually wrong - but otherwise I am entitled to state my opinion - hope that rule applies to everyone on this Board.  


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 31, 2012, 11:44:49

it will be a great day if HM just gets ejected from the bok setup


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 31, 2012, 11:50:10

Maaikie, is that what you said? Wish I can remember which thread it was, but fron the way you talked yourself up, I was under the impression that you addressed them, now it appears that you were a glorified newspaper delivery boy. No wait, you were invited to be a newspaper delivery boy. LOL. My humble apologies if I got that wrong.

 

See, I also apologise when I am wrong, or have you missed my apology to ou Visbok as well?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 13151
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 31, 2012, 12:11:50

Jalap

Mozart and Beeno is correct - you just betrayed yourself as Rooinek.   So why not use your initial nom-de-plume?   Rooinek was an absolute  idiot and irrespective of what name he uses - he will always be one.

Listen - doos - I am always civil - but Rooinek got so far out of hand with his insults that he got what he deserved - dressing downs by his  betters with some brains and ultinately banned form the site.

Question is - how did you betray yourself?   Rooinek was the only weirdo that used the term Maaik when he addressed me.

If you cannot be civi and reasonable on the site - bugger off - and don't come back until you have learned some manners.

 


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Fire Hieneken Meyer if the Northern tour is not successful?
October 31, 2012, 13:29:58

Hahahahahaha. I used the term Maaik, and now I am a doos and I am somebody called Rooinek, if I understand that correct. And then the self-proclaimed sherriff of the site tells me to bugger off after calling me a doos. You have yourself so confused now. Jalap, Rooinek, Doos.......................... This is more fun than Boswell Wilkie circus.

 

I am sure that you guys seem to have some kind of fobia or something. Beeno is forever asking people who they are/were on other forums. Some of you have a kind of fixation with this guy called Rooinek. Some are searching for someone called Dork under every rock.

 

Mad, I tell you........ mad.

 

 


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