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2849 Topic: Meyer and his poor squad
Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 14:59:48

I was optimistic about Meyers selection as Bok coach, but this took a beating after the average performances against England and the poor start to the Championship........my faith was temporarily restored with his selections and our performance against Oz at home, but now this latest rendition of a squad has me asking if this guy really knows what he is doing.

He clearly has no eye for the new and is hell bent on taking us forward with a bunch of hasbeens or neverbeens. The guy is just far too conservative and we will never progress under him. He has done our talent a disservice - the talent that was clearly evident given our S15 performances by the Bulls, Stormers and Sharks.

What the hell are the likes of Kirchner, Jean, Morne, CJ, Steenkamp, Cilliers, Jeandre Kruger and Franco v/d Merwe doing in the squad? Talk about backwards!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11933
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 15:09:35

Saffex

I repeatedly said - give Meyer a chance - he will ultinately see the light.   However, after seeing his latest selections - I have given up on him as a coach.   He has no real vision at all.   He buggered up selections previouly - but it is nothing to what he has done now.  

He is apparently clueless about backline play and his assistant coach is even more so.   i think the squad has about 10 good selections - 10 acceptable ones - and ten the worst tht should not even make the Super 15 franchises - leave alone the Springbok team.   

The list of deadwood you mentioned is a real starting point - there are others as well.  

I hope you are not spending money on a ticket to go to Twickenham - I am afraid it would be an utter waste.

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 15:27:26

i for one was a massive pro meyer pundit and believed with his history at the bulls that he was a man with forsight. after meeting him personally just at a formal function i soon realised he is very one track minded/narrow minded. which is a great trait to have if "his way" works. but that same trait can boomerang 180 if things go belly up and change is needed.

 

after reading matfields book it showed how meyers game plan in the past was very player specific and how he based a game plan on certain players ablitys. i remember one passage when the book qoutes meyers game plan as kick the ball out and matfield wins the line out only to kick the ball out again and repeat repeat and repeat.

 

fast forward to his appointment instead of having a decent support team of coaches that has a track record to speak of he went for all the bulls management. which not only but the bulls in a bit of hole in regards to a massive brain drain but none of them have a decent record. they had some super 15 exp but ricardo laubscher is a complete greeny ala allister coetzee like when jake choose him. the one area that he boks really needed a old head that is technically sound in the backs to build a platform for players to develop from. he choose a guy that is not up to standard. pieter rossouw would have been a better pick but it seems ignorance in the backs is par for the course.

 

i for one am all about development and bettement of players and live by the idea that if one wants to improve a team by 150% every player only needs to be betterd by 10% to achieve that goal. under jake he build a great support team around him that were the best in the world in what they do and all that structure that was built was just replaced as soon as a new coach is selected which is just daft and stupid to the extreme. now we are were we are.

 

there is some issues with players not be able to rest ext but that cuts both ways as the tactics and playing style requires the boks to always try to outmuscle the other teams instead of being more smarter and more dynamic.

 

his public statements that he made and his pigeon holled player selections and non selection of a player like brussouw just proves that we are on the road to nowhere and it hurts like hell saying it.


Denny

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1636
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 15:30:33

saffex, I rarely agree with you but this time I do, your statement that Meyer has no vision was clear as crystal the day he signed up all those Bulls superduds and his Bulls support staff. In one fowl swoop he had showed his hand. The best defensive coach in the country is not part of his support staff, Hell, once again WP proved the point by keeping the Sharks tryless but then add to the misery a backline coach who himself was an average player and has no reputation as a backline coach. Ring me when Meyer is gone, right now the Boks are going south.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 15:41:04

lets hope that ring comes very early because i fear the worst until he is gone


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 16:31:14

Meyer is on the road to nowhere - he has learnt nothing from his average performances todate, in fact with this current selection he has taken us a few more steps backwards. What a narrowminded man he is, completely devoid of the current or what is required to succeed.

Its clearly apparent that his Oz selection and gameplan was not his own, for as soon as we came short against the AB's, he has resorted back to that conservative mindset.

The man lacks vision


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 16:45:41

his lack of vision at the end of the day will cost him his job


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11933
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 17:16:34

Carpetmuncher

Nobody can sum up the situation better than you did above.   I agree with you 100% on Meyer's approach towards the game.   It was confirmed time and time again.   He initially tried to get Mattfield back - which confirmed Mattfield's version.   Mow the key is Etzebeth.

He kept Morne Steyn in and I think he is back with him.  Kick the ball- kick the ball - kick the ball Steyn.   I think he will start in the NH games - so gone is any form of backline play.  

Then there is something very apparent - Meyer knows squat about backline play - and his assistant knows less.   That means he keeps on thinking 10 man rugby will suffice.

I know further disasters are coming - but am looking forward to the day we get a decent coach without the blinkers of Meyer.   May that happen asap.  


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3422
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 17:28:39

 Meyer will allways have a job to go back to at the Bulls. 

He has still managed to choose a team with more Bulls than any other team, even though the Sharks and Stormers are by far the best talent pools at present. 

Bulls: 8 Sharks: 7 WP: 4 Lions: 6 Cheetahs 2 EU based: 4

 

EOYT squad the good the bad and the ugly.

October 29, 2012 in Uncategorized

Springbok squad:

Backs: 
Juan de Jongh, Jean de Villiers (captain), Francois Hougaard, Elton Jantjies, Zane Kirchner, Patrick Lambie, Lionel Mapoe, Lwazi Mvovo, Ruan Pienaar, JP Pietersen, Raymond Rhule, Morné Steyn, Jaco Taute, Jano Vermaak

Forwards: 
Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, Schalk Brits, Pat Cilliers, Marcell Coetzee, Eben Etzebeth, Juandré Kruger, CJ van der Linde, Francois Louw, Flip van der Merwe, Franco van der Merwe, Tendai Mtawarira, Jannie du Plessis, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Gurthro Steenkamp, Adriaan Strauss, Duane Vermeulen

The Good:

Raymond Rhule – a youngster with a bright future the boy uses class. Even though the CC hardly compare to test rugby it is nice to see him in the squad.  Esp since Habana isn’t getting any younger.

The Bad:

Selecting seriously out of form players Francious Hougaard and  Morne Steyn they both could do with a rest and starting to focus on next season. The Springboks is hardly a place to built form and HM insistence that he can coach players back to form is worrying.

The Ugly;

This maybe a bit harsh but selecting CJ van der Linde above JC janse van Rensburg (or even Kitshoff) is baffling to say the least. Given that he will hardly get any game time bar injuries. And with next seasons player 23 really removing the necessity for a versatile prop giving younger talent a go would have been better.

Bulls: 8 Sharks: 7 WP: 4 Lions: 6 Cheetahs 2 EU based: 4

This do tell a funny story with the Bulls having the biggest representation yet failing to impress in both the S15 or CC and only escaping a promo/releg match do to a favor by the Lions(who had nothing to gain). I know a lot of WP players are injured but even our second stringers did what the Bulls Boks could not do – Beat Sharks in Durban. Just another proof that HM has not removed his blue tainted specs yet. The constant selection of Morne and Zane really is a puzzle. This while Ludick is a constant performer.

With Flo an injurie concern I would have been tempted to select a back-up fetcher. Derick Minie or Deon Fourie?

Another worry is that Lambie is still being marked as back-up FB to Zane and with HM believing in Taute not sure where Lambie fits in. The semi final between the Sharks and Bulls just showed the gap between the Bulls and the Sharks and their playing styles. HM would be well advised to take of those specs and start seeing what everyone else in SA can see. THE BULLS WERE A SUPER STAR TEAM IN THE LAST DECADE NOT IN 2012.

Anyhow good luck to the Boks hope you make us proud.

cheers


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 18:31:25

The selections of CJ, Cilliers and Steenkamp as our back-up props is pathetic to say the least. Has Meyer seen Steenkamp of late, the guy is overweight.

The likes of Kitshoff, Malherbe and Marcel v/d Merwe should have gone as the back-ups, these kids are the future.

Same can be said of the lock back-up like Franco v/d Merwe - the guy is over the hill, what is the point.

Kids like Bresler, Steph du Toit, Willemse or JA Marais would have made far more sense

Meyer has no idea


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 20:00:52

Steph du Toit....hahahaha. Beating that thin reed again. Wasn't somebody mean to him in his last S15 game? Meyer's squad is a poor one, but not because Steph du Toit isn't there.....more because there aren't enough seasoned internationals to make up a decent bench. Give me CJ or Steenkamp  ahead of these wannabe test props like Greyling....any day.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11933
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 20:19:32

Saffex

You mentioned the forwards - but was there any position on the field - where Meyer's selections are not grossly inadequate.   Take the full back position for instance.   Who with ny brains will select  Kirchner as full back - what has Ludick done noit to get the nod?   He really was ten times the full back Kirxchner would ever be.

In center positions he stuck to two players - De Villiers and De Jongh.   In the CC games WP had mucgh better performances when those two did not play.   Then back came De Jongh and he did zilch in the semi-final but to knock on balls that could have let to tries.   Final scenario after a year of virual continuous bugger-ups - he glory of glories - scored a try in the final after giving away two penalties.   But these two duds remain in the squad.   We have better centers than those two - but they are over-looked.

Meyer will never abandon his absolute loyalty insofar as Morne Styeyn is concerned.   Any potential threat to Morne must be sidelined.   When Steyn was shockingly bad in PE - he had Jantjies on the bench - but never used him.   After an amazing nnumber of failures - he was finally forced to get rid of Morne Syeyn - but he never really let go of the useless Steyn and I will lay a bet he would select Steyn in the starting line-up for the forthcoming tests.

I never realized how bad the squad actually was until the article above appeared.   One of the weakest teams in the CC competition has the majority of players in the team.  Blue-tinted glasses is really the key here.  That accounts for the 8 Bulls in the squad.   I have no problem if the Bulls palyers justified through performance that they belong - but who of the 8 actually jusify slection on the basis of performance?  


Vladim

Status: Ref
Posts: 1
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 20:38:38

Hi everybody,

'Scuse me if i dare submit my opinion to this great forum!

Meyer is a precise type of trainer, call it 'technician'. Briefly, he is outstanding at improving a player's abilities, developping skills, training a team on a daily basis. He is a perfect championship trainer. He has convictions, he deeply believes in his vision of rugby, of how 'it should be played'.

The opposite could be Graham Henry or Saint-André. They are not biaised, does not have any ideal or vision to defend or to support : They are totally pragmatic. They first look at the players they have at their disposal, then deal with it, whereas a 'technician' wants the players to support his own plan. Problem might be that sometimes, they lack consistency and continuity, and constantly switch players.

Truth is, as did Clive Woodwards or many english trainers, Meyer will always favour the players he knows very very well, or more so, the ones he has already formed according to his intimate aim : Kirchner for instance. He has a plan for sure (which is surely not the case with all trainers, Robbie Deans for instance).

Problem is when you coach a national team, you deal with many players already formed, already tuned, supposedly at the height of their skills : you may improve some skills but not completely re-shape him.

So either you have the ultimate plan (Meyer) and you just pick up players to fulfill it, purposely ignoring some stronger who do not fit in; either you come up with a plan only after you have gathered the 'creme de la creme' of your country (Hansen).


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7834
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 23:10:14

That's an interesting theory Vlad......the problem for me is the Bok team looks increasingly like a revolving door.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11933
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 29, 2012, 23:20:57

Viadim

Welcome to the Boatd.

I like your contribution very much.   Do we need a technician with certain fixed ideas?   I don't think so.   His selection of players to match his ideas are way out.   The players molded under his watch - like Morne Steyn and Kirchner are holy cows - not to be abandoned at any cost.   Meyer will coach thhem out of their deficiencies.  Purely the approach of a technician - not a coach.

If we do have a decent coach - with a pragmatic approach we would have done much better.   A decent coach would not have ignored the quality of players like Ludick, Jordaan, Lambie (at flyhalf) and Fourie.   In ny event it is no clearer thamn ever that Meyer's selection is based on those players he knew well from Blue Bulls days - not the best players for each position.

That is why I think this tour - like the Championship - will again be a disaster. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11933
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 30, 2012, 00:03:55

Mozart

Yes it is a revolving door if any younger players are chosen.   What revolfving door is there?   He started off with Kirchner, Habana, Pietersen. De Villiers. De Jongh (mostly on the bench).Francois Steyn, Morne Steyn, Hougaard, Alberts, Spies, Coetzee, Etzebeth, Jannie, Bismarck and the Beast. Pienaar, Lambie and Jantjies were always on the bench. 

Meyer was through injuries forced to make some changes -  Francois Steyn, Spies, Bismarck *those three would still be there if not injured.   

Bad form by two of his players - Morrne Steyn and Hougaard - forced him to make two changes - but Hougaard was moved to wing - as a result of the injury to Pietersen.   Steyn was dropped for two tests because of his horrible form - but remained in the squad.  

To that list he ultimately added Vermeulen (to replace Spies) and Louw - putting Coetzee on the bench.   The only players that was not connected to the squad amounted to four players -  Vermeulen, Louw, Goosen and Taute.

I would not really call that a revolving door.   

Where Meyer really lost his brain capacity was retention of those established players that did not perform.   They remain his favouties and nothing will change his mind insofar as they are concerned.   His main bugger-up selections - Potgieter, Greyling and the Krugers were all Bulls players that Meyer tried to sneak in by putting them in the starting line up or on the bench.   One got injured and the others dropped - but J Kruger is back now.

If you look at the above - was there any player development since Meyer became coach - and in reality the answer is ZERO.

Meyer basically stuck to his original playing core - and only made changes to cater for injuries.   The non-performers he stuck to like a magnet.     

Meyer like non-peforming ex- Springboks like van der Linde

Saffex is in one respect correct - non-performing players should get the boot - but I have yet to see that really happening.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8516
RE: Meyer and his poor squad
October 30, 2012, 00:29:28

Moz got to love you typical warped take on the facts - yes Steph du Toit got injured in his last S15 game, taking a kick off and landing awkwardly. Fools like yourself had us believe he was physically not up to it and was beaten by men.

Yeah this wee lock who stands 2m and weighs 117kg's.

What you and Meyer continue to miss is the fact that our side does not need all these washed up hasbeens and that our bench should be populated by the likes of Steph du Toit, Kitshoff and co instead of long past its like CJ, Steenkamp and co.

Sadly good old Meyer will bang the same drum you beat and we will see the liability in Jean continue at 12 and the reintroduction of the useless Morne at 10 - no doubt your conservatism will find favour in these selections - hell we should have Joe and Joubert on board as well no doubt, what a BJ Botha and Johan Muller???


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