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2837 Topic: End of Year Tour Squad
clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 15:14:29

I am not happy with the Squad as announced.   I can understamnd the reasons for the inlcusion of Louw. Pienaar and Steenkamp in the squad - since they are used to play in northern hemisphere conditions. 

I am also delighted by the inclusion of Arno Botha in the team.   Where I have serious reservations are the -

*  inclusion of habitual failures in the squad ahead of other more capable players; and

*  the resultant composition of the backline to take the field.

In the list of habitual failues I will say the worst ones are Kirchner, Jantjies, Morne Steyn, Juandre Kruger and C J van der Linde.   None of the above have shown anything in either the tests they have played in - nor are they likely to contribute anything to the three matches to be played.

In the backline and especially at center, Meyer has painted himself into a corner.   He will be forced to play De Villiers and Taute or De Jongh at center.   De Villiers is showing signs of being past it and De Jongh is medicore.   Taute is an uncertainty in view of his failure in the All Black test in Soweto.    From an attacking perspective that backline is as good as dead.

I think that in many ways the selection of oldies will not serve SA Rugby in future - it can only damage us.   All of Steenkamp, CJ van der Linde and even Kirchner are too old to contriburte anything to the next WC and their inclusion can only be a temporary measure.   The ommission of Fourie is really a joke in bad tatse. Bad player planning is in evidence here.

Bearing in mind the above and knowing by now Meyer's attitude - the team to play Ireland will probably be the following:-

15    -     Kirchner

14    -     Pietersen

13    -     De Jongh

12   -       de Villiers

11    -      Mvovo

10    -      Steyn

  9    -      Pienar

  8    -      Vermeulen

  7    -      Alberts

  6    -      Louw

  5    -      Frik van der Merwe

  4    -     Etzebeth

  3    -     Du Plessis

  2.   -     Strauss

  1    -     Beast

Bench (8)

Bench :

16     -      Rallepele

17     -      Steenkamp

18     -       Cilliers

19     -       Kruger

20    -        Coetzee

21    -        Hougaard

22    -        Taute 

23    -       Lambie

Meyer's excuse for inclusion of Steyn as Flyhlf would be that he is better suited with a kicking game to conditions in Ireland and England than the others are.    

If the team ia as indicated above the players selected will represent the following franchises:-

 

Bulls -          6 Players

 Sharks -      7 Players

Stormers  -   4 Players

Lions       -    2  Players

Cheethas -   1  Player

Foreign    -    3  Players

It is ironic that the team that won the CC - has effectively only 3 players in the above team - De Villiers (the fourth player) did not play for WP in the final.   The losing side has 7 players and the team that barely managed to make the semis and with the worst performance in the semi -finals has 6 players in the team and bench.

I think Meyer missed the boat to continue with a positive renewal program.   I think the Springboks with the team as indicated would maybe win against Ireland - can beat Scottland  - but a  loss against England  is a certainty.    They are lucky not to play Wales as a loss against Wales would also have been a certainty.  

Meyer seems not to learn anything from past mistakes. 

 

 

          


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 15:27:36

Probably the weakest squad we have sent up north in a decade.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 15:38:29

I agree whole-heartedly about what you wrote above.   A very poor seletion policy is ruining us.  


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2949
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 16:01:15

 

Rugby | Springboks

Rhule leads five new Bok caps



 

Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer called up five uncapped players – including rising stars Raymond Rhule and Arno Botha – as he named a young 31-man squad to tour Ireland, Scotland and Wales next month.

The 19-year old Rhule is the bolter in the squad, having started the year as a virtual unknown, but has been rewarded after being a key part of the SA under-20 squad’s success in the IRB Junior World Championships, and having an incredible season with the Toyota Cheetahs, where he ended up the top try-scorer in the Absa Currie Cup competition.

The other three new caps are scrumhalf Jano Vermaak, lock Franco van der Merwe, and utility back Lionel Mapoe.

European based Springboks Schalk Brits and Gurthro Steenkamp were both recalled and join Francois Louw as the overseas-based trio in the squad.

There are also returns for Chiliboy Ralepelle and JP Pietersen, after both missed a large chunk of international test rugby when they were injured earlier this year.

But there was also a tinge of bad news about the squad, as winger Bryan Habana was ruled out of the tour with a knee injury, and joined a long injury-list of players who are all rehabilitating and destined to return for the 2013 season.

The Boks will also name a 32nd player to tour with the squad, but have held off because of the long injury list.

Rhule, who was born in Ghana but schooled in Bloemfontein, has had a meteoric rise, and is the only uncapped player in the squad not to have been involved in Springbok preparations this season.

The winger is clearly being blooded with a good future ahead of him, but with JP Pietersen, Lwazi Mvovo, Lionel Mapoe and Francois Hougaard who can all play on the wing, it will be interesting to see where and when he gets a chance to make his debut.

As expected the flyhalf role will be between Pat Lambie, Elton Jantjies and Morne Steyn, the latter chosen despite the fact he desperately needs a rest from the game.

But one aspect that Meyer should be commended on is the fact the team has 10 players of colour – two better than Peter de Villiers picked in his World Cup squad last year.

LONG INJURY LIST

While there is much talent in the side, it will be a tough tour for the Bok coach, with several inexperienced and young players in a team and an injury list that is one of the longest in Bok history.

Injured players that had been part of the Springbok squad thus far this year, but were not considered for selection, are Coenie Oosthuizen, Bismarck du Plessis, Tiaan Liebenberg, Andries Bekker, Siya Kolisi, Jacques Potgieter, Pierre Spies, Johan Goosen, Frans Steyn and Habana.

Furthermore, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith and Heinrich Brüssow are still out injured. Add to this captain Jean de Villiers who still has to prove his fitness with a hamstring injury, and it leaves Meyer in a tough position.

“We’ve got a settled core of players that did the job during the England series and The Castle Rugby Championship and we decided to stick with them,” said Meyer.

“Obviously losing so many players to injury, the latest being Coenie, Tiaan, Andries, Jacques and Bryan during the Absa Currie Cup, makes it difficult, but this now provides opportunities for other players.

“Gurthrö and Schalk are experienced front rankers who have played for South Africa before and know the conditions in the Northern Hemisphere. This tour provides a good opportunity to assess them as we plan ahead. Arno, Lionel, Franco and Jano have all been part of our squad earlier in the season.

“Raymond put up his hand for the Junior Boks and the Cheetahs and I’m very excited to see what he can do. It’s also great to have JP and Chiliboy back from injury as they bring a lot of experience to the squad.”

Meyer said he expected three extremely difficult tests.

“Although the Springboks won on their last visit to Dublin (in 2010), they lost three in a row before that,” he said. “In 2010, we lost to Scotland in Edinburgh. They beat the Wallabies in Australia earlier in the year, so it won’t be easy there.

“And in June we’ve experienced first-hand how difficult and opponent England are. They will be fired up at Twickenham and it will be a challenging test to end the tour with.

“Our aim is to end the season on a positive note. We set ourselves high standards and we want to improve with every test, but we have a team that is still gaining valuable experience as we strive to constantly be amongst the top sides in the world. We know we’re not there yet, but we’ve laid a foundation in the first nine tests this year and we will build on that.”

“The Rugby World Cup in 2015 also takes place in England, so we will use this tour to see how our players adapt to the conditions as we look ahead to that very important tournament.”

The Springbok squad will assemble in Cape Town on Wednesday and depart to the UK from Johannesburg on Saturday. They will return to South Africa on Monday, 26 November.

TOURING SQUAD (alphabetical order, number in brackets is number of caps)

 

Willem Alberts (The Sharks, 17)
Arno Botha (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 0)
Schalk Brits (Saracens, England, 3)
Pat Cilliers (MTN Golden Lions, 3)
Marcell Coetzee (The Sharks, 9)
Juan de Jongh (DHL Western Province, 12)
Jean de Villiers (captain) (DHL Western Province, 81)
Jannie du Plessis (The Sharks, 39)
Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province, 8)
Francois Hougaard (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 24)
Elton Jantjies (MTN Golden Lions, 2)
Zane Kirchner (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 21)
Juandré Kruger (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 5)
Pat Lambie (The Sharks, 17)
Francois Louw (Bath, England, 14)
Lionel Mapoe (MTN Golden Lions, 0)
Tendai Mtawarira (The Sharks, 41)
Lwazi Mvovo (The Sharks, 7)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster, N Ireland, 60)
JP Pietersen (The Sharks, 45)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 21)
Raymond Rhule (Toyota FS Cheetahs, 0)
Gurthrö Steenkamp (Toulouse, France, 38)
Morné Steyn (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 41)
Adriaan Strauss (Toyota FS Cheetahs, 18)
Jaco Taute (MTN Golden Lions, 2)
CJ van der Linde (MTN Golden Lions, 73)
Flip van der Merwe (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 20)
Franco van der Merwe (MTN Golden Lions, 0)
Jano Vermaak (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 0)
Duane Vermeulen (DHL Western Province, 4)


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2949
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 16:05:14

 not selecting Deon fourie is plain stupidity. Meyer is to Stuborn. If he starts with Morne Steyn he should be removed from his job and go back to the Bulls


Chippo

Status: Squad member
Posts: 470
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 16:07:33

 

You are all a bunch of negative old fannies.

 

There is absolutely bugger all wrong with this squad.

You would have complained no matter who he selected. FACT.

 


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 16:10:29

It doesn't matter who he picks,his gameplan is horrible. The backline not firing is not due to the players, but rather due to the way they have to play.

I'm getting a straulli 2002 chill down my spine.

 

 Would have loved to see Reinach tour instead of Jano(not like jano is going to play), just to learn.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6510
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 16:24:08

You miss the point Chippo. I'm not saying there are superb alternatives. Injury and retirements are playing havoc. But there are better ones and, regardless,  this is the worst squad we have sent up north in a long time. For example:

 

Arno Botha, Schalk Brits, Pat Cillier, Elton Jantjies, Juandre Kruger, Lionel Mapoe, Lwazi Mvovo, Chiliboy and Jano Vermaak would be major liabilities in any test we play. This Schalk Brits thing is typical....the guy has always been good ball in hand. But he is a big liability at scrum time and in the tough and tight loose. We tried this what, four years ago? And now he will be better.....give me a break.

 

Whineke shows alarming Destroyli tendencies to pick the flavour of the day eg Taute at centre.....to  create a multiplicity of new Boks.....and to make selections that have nothing to do with his tactics.

 

The man has yet to do anything impressive, and his record already trails PdV.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2949
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 16:45:29

Schalk Britz is a slow wing playing at hooker. Deon fourie is a much better option. Craig Burden is similar to scalk britz


Arthur John

Status: Squad member
Posts: 490
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 17:05:14

 Dismal selection....HM is rapidly losing favour with the Springbok supporters with his selections.

CJ, Jannie, Franco, Flip, Morne, Jean, de Jong, Steenkamp,Chiliboy, Brits, Pat are all past their prime and will add nothing to depth or standard of Springbok play.

The only thing left for HM to do now is appoint Puke Watson as the Springbok captain for the next WC.

Absolutely pathetic.......going down!!!!!!


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5484
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 18:10:05

i would love to hear meyer thoughts on deon fourie, is it possible that deon was hitting on meyers wife??? cos his continued no selection is puzzling.

 

im not reall surprised by the selection of most of his squad and when u think about it, morne was always going to go along, even if goosen was fit and selected, morne still would have been picked, while Boks fans have lost faith in morne (mozart the exception), he still adds plenty of value to the team with his big game experience and janties being around him and learning some of his tricks will add value to janties and the Boks game.


meyer might seem to lack imagination, but i give him credit for sticking to his guns and selecting a group of players he obviously has faith in, even when knwo one else does.
i think this squad can get the job done and im predicitng all the SANZAR teams to go undefeated during the 2012 EOYT.

 

i will say i think l mapoes selection is one i really dont understand, every game ive seen him play hes been useless, the few things he does right, comes with plenty of errors which has hi in work rate debt by the end of the 80 mins.


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 18:34:28

 I agree whole-heartedly about what you wrote above.   A very poor seletion policy is ruining us.  

 

That's funny, I could've sworn on another thread when you're sticking the boot into the AB's that SA were addressing their selection issues??

 

At least we realize that there is something drastically wrong in our team set-up and we are trying to bring in younger players.

 

 


Chippo

Status: Squad member
Posts: 470
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 28, 2012, 22:21:25

 

You are all a bunch of negative old fannies.

 

There is absolutely bugger all wrong with this squad.

You would have complained no matter who he selected. FACT.

 


Bok -Bef$K

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 216
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 06:33:36

Agree chippo, I am quite exited about this squad lots of young talent.

Although I have to agree Morne, CJ and Juandre should not be there. But there will always be complaints no matter which squad is chosen.


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 07:21:07

 Guys, Schalk Brits deserves this, he has been in great form for Saracens. He iknows the conditions in the North. On current form there are only 2 hookers in South Africa that can compete with him and that is Bismark and Strauss. He should either start or be on the bench. This is a bold call from Heyneke but i have no issues with it.

Rhule and Botha will rpobably only tour with an eye on the future. I had my doubt about Rhule's ability under the high ball and probably still do. But he is a very destructive runner and has made himself a candidate in the CC this year. Top try scorer and that for the bottom of the log team. I hope the Bulls see the selection of Botha and run with it as he has the potential to be better than spies and Vermeulen as he has traits from Both. Physical, hard and has pae as well. Bulls are keeping Spies but they should move him to 7 to accomodate Botha. Or they should have let him go.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 08:20:43

My feelings about the squad as announced remains the same - irrespective of what others say about them.   Meyer select failures and then hope that by some miracle they would suddenly come up with some miracle improvements.    I eally am amzed at some of his selections and the ignoring of other players who showed their true value on a continuous basis.

Arthur John came nearest to reality about his comments on selection of duds for the team.   Although I am convinced that Meyer is clueless about backline play - his selection of failures as forwards leave me speechless as well.    Whay I fail to undestand is his selection of players that has failed on CC level and showed really nothing in Super 15 - also leave me speechless.   Is he selecting players playing overseas because his favourites locally has failed badly or has no trust in them?

The issue here is he selected some players for the future - but these players are in a limited number of positions.   For the rest he sticks with past and present failures.    If he selects the team as mentioned above by me and let them play in a trial against WP - as the winners of the CC - they will lose that game as well.   The only players WP will have to replace would be De Jongh, Etzebeth and  Vermeulen    The latter two players will present difficulties for WP - but the former is so useless - he will be a handicap for the Springboks as he was for WP.

The tragedy is that Meyer is making such a mess of selections.  I had hoped he would be appointed as coach - but am losing faith in him completely.  He is even worse than De Villiers - whom I am really beginning to miss as coach.   His statements were crazy - Meyer's selections are definitely crazy.  

  “We’ve got a settled core of players that did the job during the England series and The Castle Rugby Championship and we decided to stick with them,” said Meyer.

Two nail bite wins against the POMS and a draw at home - followed by 3 wins, 3 bad losses and a draw against arguably the weakest team in the competition is not what I would call successful campaigns.   If that is whay Meyer calls a settled core of players making a success, then I can only add that he is totally inept for his position as coach - a person who live in a dream world should never be in such a position at all.

A coach that select players like Greyling and the Krugers - have no idea about rugby selection at all and the settled players also include a list of bad failures.    .


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 08:30:38

 Mike, The only thing i can say is give Meyer some time, he is building a team, By the look of his team the amount of youngsters in the squad should tell you how he is planning for the future, Keep that in mind before you go all negative on him. I shall remain critical if I think something is way of Like Kirchener for instance, but every single bok coach in history has had reasons for going different that other people think. 

Give Meyer the benefit of the doubt, he has proven in the past that he is a wily old goat. Only time will tell.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 08:51:51

i really do rate rhule but he wont feature in a team or a game plan as i think he will see much of the same stuff from meyer. i see taute is also just listed as a centre while i feel he can add much more value at 15. i am sorry to say but meyer and he narrow minded mindset will cost us dearly. at least meyer is consitent in his selections. there is a lot of pro deon fourie punters and rightfully so he had a great move from hooker to an openside.

 

lambie has been listed as fullback and not flyhalf so that shows how meyer is hell bent on that idea. morne steyn will cost meyer his job so i think lets have him be. i expect a very very tough tour for meyer. he and his idea of rugby will be tested


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 09:04:00

Ek

Lets look at the amount of youngsters that you mentioned.   Liberally seen there are 9 youngsters in the squad announced by him.   Of these I would say that 3 has been established players already - namely Lambie, Etzebeth and Coetzee.   I never had problems with any of those three.   I also have no problems with the selection of Taute, Mvovo and Rhule - bearing in mind there performance on CC level.   We will ultiately need a wing to replace Habana by 2015 - so lets look at the mosy promising youngsters.   However, why select Jantjies and Mapoe who have not really been success stories even on lower level.  

I believe Taute should be at full back - not center.   But will meyer play him there or at center - where he has shown very little    That leaves us in a bad situation as to center selection - matter of fact he looks at Mapoe as the only alternative in that position.   Mapoe is exactly similar in play to De Villiers and  Francois Steyn - namely using power - but without any real brain usage with one-dimentional play in evidence.   De Jongh is after Saturdays try the flavoiur of the month - but he failed miserably for the Stomers for more than a year now - his so-called only asset being defence.   A replacement policy at center is a myth and a bad one at that.

Flyhalf?   Meyer has Lambie at his disposal - but rather used Jantjies in that position and leave Lambie sitting on the bench   Does that show any common sense at all?   Jantjies was a serious flop in the Soweto test and has serious deficiencies - but Meyer sticks to him like glue.

Scrummie - I think Meyer has really a replacement policy here.   Pienaar is getting past it and by 2015 will be well past his best.   The replacements are Hougaard and Vermaak - both failures this year.   

Meyer may be a wily old goat - but the way he identify players the wily is missing and he turns into a goat only..  

  


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8968
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 09:07:45

Schalk Brits (Saracens, England, 3)
Pat Cilliers (MTN Golden Lions, 3)
Lwazi Mvovo (The Sharks, 7)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster, N Ireland, 60)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 21)
Raymond Rhule (Toyota FS Cheetahs, 0)
Gurthrö Steenkamp (Toulouse, France, 38)
CJ van der Linde (MTN Golden Lions, 73)
Franco van der Merwe (MTN Golden Lions, 0)
Jano Vermaak (Vodacom Blue Bulls, 0)

Chilli Boy an dschalk britz before Deon Fourie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PAt cilliers can consider himslef very fortunate to be therebefore Malhebe. I ahve not seen Steenkamp play for a year or two but Kirshoff mus tbe considered unlucky. I thought I had read somewhee tha Guthro -who was playing well before leavinf Sa, was injured?

Where is Jordaan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! H eshould have been in before Mvovo and Rhule. I am a fan of Rhule but he had a shocker agains tthe queens and showed tha the was still a raw talent. Mvovo shoul never have been in before Jordaan either.

Meyer has gone for expereince at scrummie and hence no place for Reinach which is a pity. Pienaar probably got the nod on the basis of NH expereince.  Both groom and reinach showed how o ge tthe ball away quickly to their backlines.

CJ ! Man if you need some one to scrum both sides even Harris would be better! CJ cant last a match coming on as a sub before going off injured. Is he fit?

Those hoping for Bresler getting a shot will be disappointed but the sharks lineout work was not to good for whatever rason - burden?  -an d this may have affected pereceptions about him rightly or wrongly. Franco may however be bit lucky.

The biggest selection blunders in my view are the ommissions of Deon Fourie and Jordaan. What more does a player have to do that that Deon hasn't. 

That said a pretty good Bok pack can be selected and the backline still has some punch. One hopes Taute takes the 15 jersey.

Beast, Strauss, Jannie

Etzebeth, Flip.

Louw, Vermulen Alberts (OR Louw, Coetzze and Vermulen (7))

Pienaar, Lambie, Hougaard, Jean, De Jong, JP and Taute.

The problem comes with the pack reserves and hence Meyer's selection of CJ to cover both loosehed and tighthead and hopefully stay the course. So it has to be Britz, CJ, Juandre and Coetzee.

Backs Mapoe, Kirchner and Morne.

Something like that.

 

 

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 09:11:07

i agree fourie can offer more than chilly boy but dont forget chilly boy is being groomed for captainancy from what i hear in certain circles....fourie has added the much neede fetching abilty that the stormers needed.

 

to be fair i am not very inspired by the selections. happy for rhule and brits but once again the lacklusture below par players seem to get a free meal ticket as soon as they select boks


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10308
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 09:17:56

Carpetmuncher

I do forsee two losses on the coming tour - with possibly even a third one.   That will with Meyer's selection be followed by a dismal failure in next years local tests and the Championship.   A year from now Meyer would be history and they will be hunting for a new coach.   If any sense is to prevail I hope it will be Plumtree - at least he knows something about 15 man rugby and he won't select duds either.

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: End of Year Tour Squad
October 29, 2012, 09:33:59

to be fair mike i hope so too but the problem is not just at the top but the we as a country need to understand that the SA way is not the only way to play rugby. basic player development and basics of backline play is not nice to have its a critical part of play and with out it a team can never have long term success. total rugby is winning rugby and total rugby has always been the South african way. big strong forwards bashing the other team senseless and highly skill full running backs attacking should be the model. i would even go so far as to say the sharks cheetahs playstyle fushed with a stormers defense mentality would render all the teams useless against us.

 

a guy like plums will change the way we play and remove the cancer that has been eating our rugby over the years. people wonder why we are not winning so much even if we produce the players and team but its all down to our primate like game pattern and one eyed tactics.

 

it might sound very unsouth african but there is a part of me that hopes meyer loses and get fired for i know in time a big change now will give us the type of results we need


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