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2833 Topic: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
mozart

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De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 27, 2012, 23:11:24

Man of the match: WP skipper Deon Fourie was given the official award while Demetri Catrakilis and Eben Etzebeth both deserve a mention, but we'll go for Juan de Jongh, who scored scintillating try and was a thorn in the Sharks' side from start to finish.

 

Moment of the match: The Sharks had a stranglehold on the match until De Jongh's moment of brilliance seemed to breathe life into the rest of his team-mates.

 

Say no more!


clevermike

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RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 27, 2012, 23:53:04

Mozart

Blinded by one of three tries he scored in the whole Super 15 series and CC this year.   Yes the try was good - but largely off-set by two converted penalties he gave away.   I think that De Jongh was bad the whole year and a flash in the pan is no justification for sudden pedestal standing.   Let me remind you also of that excellent try scoring opportunity in the Aussie test that he fluffed.   Even lasy week - after Pietersen made a line break and put De Jongh in space - a loose forward caught up with him and ankle tapped him.   Not even a remote attempt to off load the ball.

Problem is that De Jongh can be good and bad in the same game.  The try he scored stemmed from a technicl move - ending up with virtually no defenders in froint of him.   Those who tried to tackle him was not realluy in the position to do so.   As a matter of fact the try stemmed from a move by Catrakillis - who put De Jongh in space.   The problem is that De Jongh cannot create space for others and off-load balls effectively.   Syill  very average center.  


mozart

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Posts: 7805
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 28, 2012, 00:35:55

13 Paul Jordaan
Showed great acceleration off the mark to break down the right wing and link up with Pietersen on his inside but was outplayed by his opposite number.
6.5/10

And as I recall Mike, you like me, think Jordaan is our most exciting prospect at 13. De Jongh cut him down with precision.

 

The fact is Juan has been in the wilderness. Up to this year he had Fury in his preferred slot. Then Whineke had no interest in him. But he remains a professional 13....who plays the position properly.

 

Today he was a little too experienced and skilled for our best young prospect.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11917
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 28, 2012, 05:39:59

Mozart

First of all - Ge Jongh was not Man of the Match in the game yesterday - Fourie was.   I don;'t know where you get that info from.

In the second case - I have to say that you talk about todays match only - you cleanly forget about happened previously.   De Jongh can feed off space created for him in open play - he cannot make line breaks at all.    A decent center must be able to do the latter as well.   De Jongh's problem has been outlined elsewhere by another member more precisely where he said he has a very limited skills set.

One question - did his skills include the two converted penalties he gave away in the game as well?   I saw De Jongh play throughout the Super 15 series.   He managed to score two tries during that whole series - and those two were in one match - ie against the Melbourne Rebels when he got the ball with no defenders in front of him.    Where was his skills the rest of the series?   

The skill set would also have been noticeable in the other try scoring opportunities which he fluffed.    Let me put it to you bluntly.   Was he really any better than Taute - when he came on against the All Blacks in the Soweto test?   The answer is really NO.   The same applies as to the Aussie test - where he fluffed an excellent try scoring opportuntiy.

Let me be blunt - he has more experience in test rugby and on Super Series level than Jordaan - after all he is 29 years old and has been around for four years on that level.   De Jomgh has limited skills .capacity - whilst Jordaan has natural skills.   I am going to ask you a simple question in this regard.   Which of the tries scored yesterday by De Jongh or the one against the Reds in the Super series play-offs scored by Jordaan was a better try?   

I would say the latter by a mile - since Jordaan not only created the space that ultimately let to the try being scored - but he also scored the try aftewards himself.   Huge difference as far as I am concernedand which really illustrated the huge difference in skills capacity of the two players concerned.

Another issue of interest here is - De Jongh is 29 years old and came onto the scene when he was 25.   Where was he before that and what chance is there that he could be a future investment in further development?   No chance of the latter at all. 

Let me ask you one further question - you always said that Fourie has limited capacity as a center - yet a person with far more limited skills capacity is now your favourite - cannot understand that at all.    

 

 

 

  

 

 


mozart

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Posts: 7805
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 28, 2012, 06:39:51

I got it from Planet Rugby....check it out if you like. Also check out de Jongh's age. He is 24....born in Paarl in 1988. I have no idea where you get the 29 years from.

 

And I'm not saying Juan is the answer to our test 13 issue....he has some limitations. But you and Dave have been way over the top about how poor he is....and I knew eventually this moment would come.....because he is a fine player. In fact the only time I remember him being stretched by an opponent is by JP earlier this year. And he has scored tries of this quality before, notably against Wales in 2010.

 

We would be better served with de Jongh at 13 in the YE tour....rather than persisting with out of position players like JJ or Taute. And on today's evidence it's hard to argue Jordaan would be a better choice at this stage either. Down the road quite possibly.

 

Enjoy the crow!


clevermike

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Posts: 11917
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 28, 2012, 08:01:09

Mozart

Sorry about the age issue in the case of De Jongh.   However, that was nver the main point in my argument.   I asked one pertinent question about the try yesterday and the one against the Reds.   No replay on that one?

I really am not over the top about how poor a center De Jongh is - I only look at his all too obvious limiations and realize he is not the answer to selection as a center.   My main concern has always been the fact that he cannot make major contributions to attacking play unless somebody else create space for him - he cannot create space for himself.   The latter aspect is where Jordaan beats him hands down.   His limitations in scoring tries is also to my mind a problem.   He probably in Super 15 and CC this year was ne of the least effective attacking centers on display.

By stating facts about his poerformance is not intending to run him down - it merely serve as a basis for my comments that I do not think he really is the answer to ourprolems at center.

You are barking up the wrong tree insofar as my opinion of Taute and Enngelbrecht is concerned.   I have been consistent in saying that Engelbrecht is not an international center at all.  Saffex was his chief supporter - I never was. and said that he in my opinion is not a center at all.   Insofar as Taute is concerned - I was the first person on this site who said that he performed in Super 15 better for the Lions at full back than he did at center.    I still think that he should be further developed as a full back.

To be quite frank - we have a serious problem at center.   To my mind Jordaan is the most promising of the available players.   Meyer has tried Taute and he failed to meet expectations.  Meyer also thought Engebrecht would be tthe answer  - but he oibviously is weak - even on CC level.   None of th other younger players have shown enough to serve as a basis for future selection.   What is to happen when De Villiers leave international rugby (probably within the next year) or if his performances deteriorate further?   What will happen if Francois Steyn fails to meet future requirements?   You yourself have serious reservations about the latter - and so have I.

Where are we to go then?   Of the available centers on Super 15 level - the answer is very few has any capacity to advnce advance to higher level.   You yourself said De Jongh has limitations.   Other than that - we are in a minefield - there are no players other than Jordaan that thus far showed anything much.   Whitehead (Sharks) has shown some potential - Mapoe (Lions) plays on strength only and not a clever player at all - Venter (Bulls) very average at best.

It is for that reason that I believe Coetzee selected De Allende for yesterdays match.   The number of first time players who ever played practically their first match in frontline selection on CC level must be extremely limited.   I personally think De Allende played well yesterday - he was on par with the performances of Whitehead - his opposite number. 

Fo myself - i would rather say that Meyer may decide to test younger playes on this tour to determine whether there is any scope for future development.  Some will succeed - others not.   The best norm would be to see how the centers perform in Super 15 next year and then make a  more up to date assessment.     

   


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 29, 2012, 08:21:16

 Mike the Point Mozart is trying to make that it seems you are missing, Is that Everyone has been harping on about how bad de Jongh has been this year. 

Where if you realistically look at it. His position in the past has been filled by Fourie, only this year did he become a regular. He has not been what he was when he came on the scene, but he has not been as bad as most of us wanted to make out. 

Secondly Everyone has been going on about how good Jordaan is then de Jongh comes along in the CC Final pressure situation and totally outplays him, Take the try away and the rest of de Jongh's game is still far better than anyting Jordaan dished up on the day. 

Seeing as de Jongh has the experinience and his confidence back, Heyneke should back him to play 13 on the end of year tour, maybe looking past his size obsetion as Juan runs into space like any decent 13 should, that is the forst criteria for 13 play. Plus defensively there is nothing wrong with his game.


Saffex

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Posts: 8516
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 29, 2012, 10:55:19

Yeah it was about time he had a good game, given he has done stuff all, all year in the company of a good side.

de Jongh is a good rugby player, just not physical enough for a test 13 - yes he handed Daniel off before you all get too excited, but then again Lambie handed Schalk off


clevermike

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Posts: 11917
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 29, 2012, 13:36:03

Saffex

Mozart is "married" to the idea of if you have been a Springbok in the past - you are good enough to be one now. Agree wholeheartedly with you on this one of De Jongh - he scored a good try on Saturday - but he also gave away to converted penalties by mindless play.   Anyway - he did stuff all the past 2 years and I agree with you about him being useless - especially on attack he brings nothing to the game.

On average on Saturday he made one good tackle and scored a trie - but gave away enough penalties to off-set those.   I do not think he really had a good game on Sayurday as well.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7805
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 29, 2012, 14:38:14

The moaning  of the endangered crows as Dave and Mike enjoy their seared bird. You guys sound like you need a pallet cleanser.......hahahahahaha.


Denny

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1636
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 29, 2012, 15:39:48

Mike, you've been whining on about De Jongh to the point where it's become sickening....name me a better 13?...tx.


Saffex

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Posts: 8516
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 29, 2012, 16:23:56

I dont dislike de Jongh at all - my point with him is that he is not physical enough for test rugby and his exposure in this regard gets confirmed on a regular basis. Hell he ran a good angle and handed Daniel off, it was a good try. He is a good rugby player - he is just 10kg's too small for test rugby.

You dont get 87kg outside centres currently playing test rugby for a reason.

Better 13's are Taute, JJ Engelbrecht, JP and Jordaan for those that asked. I'd add Pat Howard and JP du Plessis when it comes to test candidates.


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7805
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 29, 2012, 23:12:46

Dave you must be the only person who thinks JJ is a better 13 than de Jongh, apart from his family.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11917
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 30, 2012, 00:14:50

Mozart

Bliee me it is not difficult to find a better center than De Jongh.   I think we have to look at what happened when De Jongh was out of the WP team - the backline functioned much better in his absence.   JP Du Plessis performed much better than De Jongh.

I do not agree with the full list of Saffex - but I do agree about Jordaan, Du Plessis and Howard. Being much better than De Jongh.    


Saffex

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Posts: 8516
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 30, 2012, 00:21:07

Moz of all the young 13's out there JJ and Taute are my favourites and I think JJ may just have the edge. This kid glides with ball in hand.

Without a shadow of a doubt JJ is a better 13 than de Jongh. I would NEVER select de Jongh for a test - he is just not big enough, plain and simple.

You bang on about JJ not being able to tackle, well that is just plain rubbish - this time 3 years down the line you will still be banging that drum.

Reality is, JJ, like JP has had to adapt defensively at 13 having moved from the wing. JJ struggled at times but that was months ago........during this CC he has been defensively sound.

JJ's strength is that step and swerve, much like Jordaan - JJ just brings the physical edge, something Jordaan lacks.

Taute and JJ are our futures at 13, with Jordaan a possibility and Howard another bright young prospect.

Taute and JJ would be my touring 13's, forget de Jongh who will never impose himself physically defensively or on attack at test level. The days of 87kg outside test centres have long gone - the stats speak for themselves and given the nature of the modern game, I can fully appreciate why small centres are history


clevermike

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Posts: 11917
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 30, 2012, 00:32:09

Saffex

Jordaan may be shorter than other contenders - but he is tough and weighs in at 96 kgs - 9 kgs heavier than De Jongh.   In any event - Mozart is always on about how good a defender De Jongh is - but have you ever seen De Jongh tackling a forward coming at him?  Never.   When he tries to attack - the opposing players toss him aside and take the ball from him without any bother.   Du Jongh a test center - my ass.  


Saffex

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Posts: 8516
RE: De Jongh gets the MOM and the MOM
October 30, 2012, 00:44:35

That is the very issue with de Jongh, technically great with openfield tackles when he takes his man around the ankles and give him space on attack and he is effective as he steps well.

Probelm is and its a big problem, space is at a premium at test level, much of the rugby is played in heavy traffic.......it is here that de Jongh gets exposed. He is just too light to impose himself physically - he gets bashed backwards in the tackle and on attack is not able to take contact and gain forward momentum.

The modern centre needs both skill to beat his man in space and the physicality to make an impression in traffic. de Jongh is handicapped at 87kg's - FACT


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