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2745 Topic: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 20, 2012, 15:55:09

Now that NZ have fallen after 15 wins, the question of whether the Boks 97/98 remain the greatest can be answered. In a word yes, they are in my humble view. A clean sweep of the Trinations....bookended by two grand slam Northern tours would have settled it. The Boks sadly fell at the last hurdle against the Poms, but they were close enough....and 17 beats 15.

 

Recalling that Pom loss refereeing played it's inevitable part in Bok disappointment. They were ambushed by a tactically very smart Pom side, that exploited the lack of inches in our wings with high cross kicks. Still we clawed back and finally with the game on the line at 13 to 7, the Bok backline surged out of their 22. Snyman had a potentially match winning pass on it's way to Terblanche when Luger knocked it down diving from behind. At a minimum, Luger should have been carded and penalty given, providing a last lineout close to the line.....nada.

 

No doubt our Kiwi friends would demur, but the 17 match Boks remain the gold standard in professional rugby.


hakwa

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2183
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 20, 2012, 16:14:17

 whatever happened to the 1995 RWC Champions the Boks in 1996?

- ;-)), that's right, the ABs brought their own sandwiches and avoided Suzie like the plague (like the plague lols lols get it?).

I see you're still suffering from that selective memory impairment Mozzie -  lols!


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 20, 2012, 16:37:05

Weak AB stomachs were brought on by nerves Hakwa, the Suzie thing was a face saving deal. Hell in 96 our guys had scarcely recovered from the party.

 

But I'm glad you brought that up....in 95, faced with winning the RWC Stransky nailed a beauty. Today Carter......not so much. Great flyhalf, with a history of not winning the close ones that are historically important.

 

Nice little run though!


Chippo

Status: Squad member
Posts: 468
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 20, 2012, 18:38:26

 Gotta agree with moz re carter and his bmt.... Or lack thereof

That being said.... I wouldn't mind carter over steyn, koen, pretorius, de beer, grant etc....

He is def one of the all time greats.

Every team he has played for has been brilliant. He makes each side he plays for.

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8951
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 20, 2012, 19:02:30

Well what we can say with certainty is this ab team is not. How can it be with such an ordinary pack of forwards? What happened to Read who the commentators were raving about in the first moments of the game. second half he disappered as he did against us in Dunedin. Messam is ordinary and the two locks nothing exceptional. Mealamu and Hore and the blues prop going to highlanders (who name escapes me) are also fading.

Backline is okay but can be shut down. No they have had a nice run with luck and other factors running their way (Beeno being diplomatic). Unless they can renew effectively they will struggle next year against resurgent Bok and Oz sides. If Carter gets injured they are toast.


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 20, 2012, 20:22:19

  Oh I don't know the AB's have been the no 1 ranked side since 21/12/2009 (soon to be 3 full years) and now have won the pretty much every trophy on offer in  that time including the RWC, a clean sweep of the RC and a 16 match winning streak and a 17 match upbeaten run and counting - you do the math, the AB's win every time.

 

 

 

Well done Oz good to see the fighting spirit and passion that is sadly so often lacking from the Boks.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 20, 2012, 22:02:25

Isn't "unbeaten" a bit like kissing your sister?


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 20, 2012, 22:08:30

 Depends, is it your sister we're kissing?


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 00:17:18

Fact remains 17>15. It's shame really and to lose the streak to Oz, doubly galling I'd imagine.


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 09:06:01

 17 is greater than 16, that was the streak, not 15.  Disappointing yes, galling? Not really, in a strange way I'm happy it was Oz rather than anyone else, there's so much NZ about Australian rugby it's hard to hate them too much...


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1643
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 09:19:09

 Well then you are just proving that they are better than you at your own game Poi-e..Ha ha..Australia is unique. They took a third string team and should have beaten your best...Eish!!!!


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 12:21:31

 Wow, could've sworn the game ended in a draw - but your right Boklogic, if that's how close the Wallabies got to the AB's in a dead rubber, the Boks are likely to continue to be the Wallabies bitches moving forward, enjoy 3rd place.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1643
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 12:37:15

 Course it did. Thats why said "should have beaten" not did beat. The fact remains, a Wallaby team without Ioane, Cooper, Barnes, O' Connor, Horwill, Genia, Moore, Samo kept the "mighty AB's" tryless and to a draw. Those men I mentioned are all world class game changers. Similar to the Boks without Bismark, Brussouw, Burger, Juan Smith, Spies, Du Preez, Frans Steyn, Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen and not to mention all our guys that have retired like Matfield, Botha and Smit all in 1 year yet we still run you close and actually snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the "terrorising" venue of Dunedin..Ha ha com on AB supporters..You have merely achieved beating injury ravaged teams this year.. Aussies and Boks will be stronger when the players return as our fringe players would have experience..NO ONE IS SCARED OF THE WEE AB's.. Rather the opposite. Licking my lips for next year and praying we not all injured again..


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 12:41:37

 Ummm so how exactly did they beat us at our own game when it ended in a draw?  But it is our own game, thanks for finally acknowledging the true spiritual guardians of the game...I look forward to hearing more of your excuses in years to come, all the best in your pursuit of 2nd place.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1643
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 12:49:01

 Just like "Boy" you are not bright..You said there is so much NZ about Aussie rugby (coaches and all) that its hard to hate them too much..

I said oh ok so then what you saying is the Aussies are being taught "NZ style" then they are better at your own style than you. I mean, they drew with you with a 3rd string team...Imagine they had a full strength team?? They would have cleaned your pipes..

 

I am just really happy the AB's feet are firmly grounded and I love reading your guys pitiful excuses as to what went wrong..


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 12:53:59

 Umm OK, whetever tenious link you want to grasp on to feel free, if it eases the pain of supporting a team firmly ensconced at the arse end of the trinations I'm happy for you.  Both Bok and AB fans only seem to make excuses when our teams don't win, thankfully you lot have to make them more than we do.

 

Good luck getting out of 3rd place.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1643
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 13:04:10

 No Poi-e, you need the luck..Good luck hanging onto 1st place...As I said, writing is on the wall and its a long drop from the top...


hakwa

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2183
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 13:06:07

Boklogic " I love reading your guys pitiful excuses as to what went wrong.." sure if you call coming up from 15-6 to 15-18 and almost causing the Wobblies to wet their pants with that brave heart scrum call by captain courageous infront of the ABs posts at full time - nek minit - drop goal attempt by Carter at the other end of the field - you could have heard a pin drop, if you call that wrong, then sure ;-))


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 13:11:46

 Please..the Boks need to jump and swing up just the hit the AB's in the knees, lets talk when you reach 2nd, mind you - you'll probably hit 4th before then.

 

The Spiritual Guardians always enjoy 'just wait till next year' threats...heard them all last year as well.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 15:06:23

Spiritual Guardians......sounds a bit effeminate to me.....Brad Thorne in drag?  My mental image of the ABs as "Guardians" is more akin to the bouncer than the spirit.


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 21, 2012, 15:48:23

 Brad Thorn in *cough* drag...thank you for that interesting expose to the mind of Moz....


All Black NZ

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 105
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 06:58:42

Are The All Blacks 1903 - 2012 the greatest team of the rugby Era.

You Decide.

Country Plyd Won Lost Draw Tries Conv. Pen. D/G Mark Pts For Pts Ag. Pts Diff  Win %
                           
All Blacks 494 373 103 18 1687 1083 1035 89 5  12887     6241  6646 75.51
South Africa 413 259 133 21 1156 749 821 96 1 9359 6365   2994 62.71


Ka Mate

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 27
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 08:24:16

Unbelievable! The All Blacks are the RWC Champions, they're the Rugby Championship Champions (where they did the double over the SteroidBoks), they're the #1 ranked side in the world and they've just come off a sequence of 16 consecutive test wins . . . yet there are Yarpies on here still whining that the pathetic SteroidBoks are the better side and "just wait for next year".

 

Funny thing is, that's what we heard last year . . . and the year before that . . . and the year before that one.  We're always hearing how this AB player is crap and that one is too old but the old and crap ABs still make the SteroidBoks their little bitches in almost every game. What is it now, 6 out 7 ass-whippings?

 

Don't lose heart chaps. One day, if you really try hard, you might even be second best! LOL!


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8951
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 12:54:50

Cheer up kate mate. You will still have your pictures to remember I hope you are saving all the ones ou Hakwa posts on here. Always helps to remember better times! Hahahahaha.

kate mate we are looking to the future as the mighty Boks rebuild.  Watch this space.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 13:23:18

to be fair one can only really measure success for me over a longer period of time. in that couple of years we were the best in the world but only due to a change in attitude and change of mentality.

 

the feat by the 97/98 boks was for the better of the word something amazing but that set of wins was to be fair the only highlight for us in that period.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10258
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 14:03:54

I am not sure that anybody can make a categorical statement about which team was the greatest of all time.   If you base the answer purely on the number of consecutive tests won - then that may be a coorect statement.

However, ptior to 1997-98 the record of 17 consecutive tests won was held by the All Blacks.    That happened while th sport was an amteur sport - not in the professional era.   So I assume that with his wording mozart referred to the period since professionalism was introduced after the 1995 WC.

Now lets analyze the situation further.    Successive wins by a team over an 18 months period could be influenced by the situation pertaining to the strenth and weaknesses of the opposition - as well as whether the games were played at home or not.   Lets start with the opposition team situation.  

*    In 1997-98  the All Blacks team was not as strong as the one they developed subsequently 

*    The Wallabies and POMS went through a slump - as they just started to build new teams to contest the 2000 WC.

Now lets look at the games issue.   The run of wins did not include a WC and started off with a record win against the British Lions (35 - 12) ) and  against the Wallabies (61 -22).   After that the number of wins was more or less half ay home and half away..

Now lets look at the present All Black team with their 15 wins in a row.   The started off with six wins in the WC - ie home games.   They then beat the irish 3 times at home - followed by six games in the Championship - of which only three was away games.   In th process they played 12 of the games in New Zealand and only three away games.   However, the fact that they did win 15 games in succession - really shows a great team.

If the argument is about a virtually unchanged team playing over a period of 18 months winning 17 consecutive tests - and that is th only norm applicable - then the answer is yes they were the best team during the professional era - since they did manage to win at home and away.

However, if there are other norms applicable like performances of  teams over a protacted period of time - then the All Blacks must be rated as having had since 1995 the  BEST TEAMS n the world during the periods they were ranked as no 1 in the world.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 14:11:16

i agree mike the true messure of success can only be done over a extended period of time......that couple of years was amazing for the boks but when mallet depleted carel du plessis structures that he created it all wend downhill from there....

 

the only way to have true long term success is to have a constant management team and coaches at the top and to rotate that over a period of time without changing at wholesale is and seems to best way to go


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 14:35:33

I was referring to the professional era only. It was a contiguous period and still in memory.

 

If we were going for the best team of all time, I would nominate the Boks of 1938 to 53. In this magnificent era, with  backline  stars like Flappie Lochner, Dai Williams the Boks won 4 tests out of 5 in NZ and Oz in 37, beat the Lions in 38......then came back after the war and beat NZ 4 to nothing, still the most decisive dominance in the long rivalry. The team then went on to tour Britain and France winning all five tests, and losing only one match with the mid week team. The era ended with a three to one drubbing of Australia.

 

So NZ were thrashed twice, Australia twice, the Lions once and all the Home Unions at home. Six major series to nothing. The best stretch in rugby history methinks.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 14:43:19

i agree moz...your knowledge of the game is massive. amazing backline players they played a open style of play. forwards out muscled the other teams forwards while the backline players ran the other teams defences to shreds. perfect game. i recall one try where lochner outgunned 3 players of nz to score a majestic try in the corner. he backed his speed and skills and scored the try. i only wished i could say the same for the current bok backline players.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 15:01:45

Actually Muncher I do have one particularly good book on this older stuff....that helps. It was a great backline in 37. Craven, Harris, Turner Babrow, Lochner, Williams  and Gerrie Brand.....each one a legend. Dr Louis Babrow actually sewed up my chin after I cut it open trying to tackle a player from behind in a school game. A very nice man and gentleman as I recall.

 

It would be fun if any of our NZ friends could nominate a similar period in their history....we know our own stuff well, but NZ's history is sometimes a bit hazy.


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 667
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 15:16:36

Except for the odd slip here and there, the last 20 years were quite amazing for NZ.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 15:20:16

Yep I have to agree....NZ has been the team to beat for 20 years. Nauseating, but they are great rugby players.


allblacknblue

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 233
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 15:51:14

Who cares! I think this AB side is the greatest for the way they play, not how many wins they have strung together I know they are taking alot of crap for falling short but 16 in a row is still a bloody good effort and next week the counter starts again!


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 20:44:32

Dunno what Wigboy means by Open Era but the best teams in the proffesional era are the 96 ABs, the 98 Boks, the 2003 Poms and the 2012 ABs. All great teams.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 22, 2012, 22:38:04

Confidently stated Old Fruit, but wrong. The Aussies of 99 to 2003 are up there as well. They won the 99 RWC.....the Poms had a lot of ref help beating them in extra time, in the final of the 2003 RWC. They won the 2000 and 2001 TNs. During this period Oz was generally able to win the big ones and extremely mentally tough. I would have picked that side in a contest against any team in the last 20 years.....including the current ABs.


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 667
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 23, 2012, 11:46:16

Moz, how much do you know about the unofficial test between the All Blacks and the Boks at El Alamein? It was played 2 days before the 2nd battle of El Alamein - today 70 years ago. I know Dr Babrow was the Bok captain and that 15 of the 30 playes involved in the game was either  injured or killed in the battle. I also know that the BBC broadcasted the match and the All Blacks won 9 to 6. The NZ captain was KIA on the first day of the battle.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6457
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 23, 2012, 14:06:47

DB, apparently  on the day the Boks beat the ABs to win that series in NZ, Hitler and Mussolini were cementing the Axis in Munich. Some of the players from that series were killed in the war, others survived harrowing experiences, like Tony Harris who was  shot down. I have heard of that game somewhere, but  have no additional details......must have been a great moment though.


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 454
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 23, 2012, 16:35:57

 Mozart, I have to agree that the 99 Aus team was quite a fantastic bunch of players. I think in that year both NZ and Aus played some fantastic games. Probably one of the best games I watched and I did't even know who to shout for other than wishing for more tries. Most of those games were pretty dam close and the lead exchanged hands several times. I remember watching Mortlock tackle Lomu where he hit him on the chest and put the Lomu on his arse. Never have I ever thought that somebody would do that to Lomu. 

The question still remains which team produced the most consistent winning streak and teh AB's have always been the team to measure yourself against where as the boks when they get everything right can be just as good as the AB's. As a bok supporter I have absolute respect for the AB's not so much the game they play but the fact that they have been innovative in all areas of their game. From management all the way through to coaching. The thing that impressed me about them is the how quickly they are able to turn things around. From where they couldn't even catch a line out ball to winning the great line experts, Matfields ball of him. 

But as a SA supporter the team that played between 97 / 98 was for me the best bok team and probably on of the best performances I ever witnessed the boks play. Can anybody name that full squad?

1 Os / Toks van der Linde
2 Dalton
3 Cobus Visagie 
4 Mark Andrews
5 Kryno Otto (RIP)
6 Ruben Kruger
7 Andre Venter
8 Gary Teichman (Bobby Skinstad, greatest impact player the boks ever had)
9 Joost
10 Honniball
11 Pieter Slapchip Rousouw
12 Pieter Muller
13 Andre Snyman
14 Stefan Terblanche 
15 Percy Montgommery


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 667
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 24, 2012, 09:48:16

For those that can understand Afrikaans: a radio clip from yesterday about the unofficial test between SA and NZ played 70 years ago (1942) at El Alemein.

 

http://www.rsg.co.za/forcedownload.asp?fn=20121023%5FMON%5FRUGBY%5F1942%2Emp3&f=%2Fimages%2Fupload%2Fsound%2Fklanke%2F


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: Are the Boks 97/98 the greatest team of the Open Era?
October 24, 2012, 11:32:25

dankie vir daai draad goeie stukkie geskiedenis daai ou maat


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