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2671 Topic: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6466
Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 13, 2012, 22:42:48

He was supposed to ride quietly into the sunset, while stringbean Goosen and Johnny Quade Jantjies, vied for the Bok flyhalf slot. But then we get this from Rugby 365:

 

Man of the match: ....... The Lions' seemed to lose direction when Elton Jantjies came on and the rookie Bok moved into first receiver and James to inside centre. ........ However, our award goes to one of most talked about players this year - Bulls flyhalf Morné Steyn, who again showed his true class and returned to his best match-winning form - both in terms of his distribution skills, goal-kicking and kicking out of hand. He constantly kept his team on the front foot and the 23 points he score certainly made his critics eat plenty of humble pie.

 

Funny....this is not the first time. A few weeks back the reverse happened for the Lions, when Jantjies left the park they got way better. This guy is Captain Confusion out there, but some see it as being creative.

 

I have said before there is nothing wrong with Morne's defence or his distribution. The kicking he does is in line with team tactics. The big question is, does he regain his awesome goal kicking skills? It's way too soon to declare victory. But if he gets his kicking back and the backline is coached properly, I think Morne can be a very effective flyhalf for the Boks....and much like Monty, have a late golden period.

 

One thing is for sure, Jantjies is not the answer.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2936
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 13, 2012, 23:10:17

 Earl Jantjies is not a better flyhalf than Butch James. The Stormers could be in for a surprise. If the final is Lions vs Sharks, it will be interesting to see if Jantjies lines up against Lambie. 

As for Morne, one currie cup match performance is good, but he has had many bad performances this year for the boks, and his form for the Northern Bulls was not great either. Without Fourie Dupreez he does not excel at the high level.

He can pass, but he usually stands too deep. Butch James and Henry Honnibal play the game the way it should be done for the boks- running hard and flat on the advantage line. Lambie plays a more flat game as does Goosen. Although out of the lot Goosen has the strongest running game. 

Lambie for the end of the year tour, and Morne should rest. If he gets his form back then maybe a place on the bench for his kicking ability, but still not a Morne fan and I do not think he can take the boks forward in the way that Goosen or Lambie can.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6466
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 13, 2012, 23:41:32

South African flyhalves have come in two varieties.....crash ball artists and kickers. Jantjies and ultimately Lambie will evolve into kickers. Neither is a great runner, but Lambie has an eye for the opportunity.....Jantjies is a pattern player, he provides tactics that are often unrelated to the opportunity on the field. But believe me, after another year or two of abuse, you will find both of these youngsters deeper in the pocket, quite happy to boot the ball.

 

James played many tests for South Africa and he was a tough nut. You didn't run casually in 10 channel, because James could easily take your head off. As a creative player, I have generally failed to see the fuss....a few dummies and quick passes, hardly stellar. And Butch really can't step or accelerate the line.

 

Nor could Henry Honiball, a crash ball artist of some note. Henry's passing was  less creative than a player like Morne.....and once the Bok pattern of crash ball and pick and go had been stopped.....and his tackling was neutralized by the quick pass or kick.....he was an empty suit. Go watch our loss in 98 against the Poms, he was clueless. But could that guy tackle, it was a pleasure to watch his technique.

 

There aren't any crash ball types in the nursery....but Goosen, like Gaffie in 99 presents a totally different kind of player. Du Toit was a brilliant talent, but his head did him in. Nonetheless he was the closest thing to Goosen today and could never connect with his fellow players. Goosen isa flyhalf who could slide through the outside gap, and he did against Oz. He is rarer than hen's teeth and potentially worth his weight in gold. But, and this is a big but, he has to be developed.


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 13, 2012, 23:55:13

Ou Visbok, the Northern Bulls left the Super Rugby scene at the same that we saw the end of the Coastal Sharks, The Western Stormers and the Cats.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2936
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 00:00:30

 Moz I would disagree with Honnibal and Butch only being crash ball players. Honnibal was probably the best crash ball player, but the older he became his allround game got better. When he started playing flyhalf he was more like a flank. His passing got better and better and got players outside of him. He is kicking got better as his career went on for both poles, touch and tactical kicking. Butch James followed a similar patter in his career. Both were also master of the offensive defence tacklers. It is no co-incidence that Honnibal was in the team that had 17 straight wins, and the Worldcup in 2007 was won with Butch at 10. 

South Africa has allways had a real shortage of flyhalfs and inside centers. Usually when we only have our best inside backs on the field do we win anything or excel. Du Toit was a player that could never handle pressure so he had better games on the wing or at fullback for the boks where he had more space and time. Many people write him off as a rugby player, but under Jake white he has some really good games on the wing. 

I just hope Goosen is not injury prone, and the injuries so far are more of not being developed enough yet. 

Goosen is a better runnner than all of them, but more imporatantly a better playmaker than all of the them,


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6466
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 00:09:57

 I agree with your conclusions, but add another caveat ......this will work only if all our players adopt the same mind set.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10269
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 01:37:28

Mozart

I also noticed some form improvement on the part of Morne Steyn - but we nust not lose perspective here.   This is on CC level and in a match where the forwards of the Bulls were much better than those of the Lions.   The foundation was laid up front.   By the way - does that 50 meter run by Pogieter that led to the Basson try suddebly qualified him as the best loosie in SA?   If you go over the moon about that one - you can say the same about Morne Steyn.   

We have seen five flyhalds on display thie weekend and lets review the situation obhectively - noting also that 2 of them were in fact MOM:-

Morne Steyn  -    A very good match - his kicking was a hige omprovement from what we have seen this year thus far.   The backline of the Bulls did show some signs of life - but the factual position remains - the matchwinning performance was not due to a substantial degree to attacking backline play.   

Lambie -  Was the key to an excellent display pf attacking running rugby by the Sharks backline.     In this case it was in the main the backline that laid the foundation for victory.

James   -   Played well, but not really of international material anymore.

Catrakilis -  Very average from an attacking vaxkline performance perspective.  Kicking is his main weapon.  The foundation for this victory was laid by the WP forwards and the backline play - with rare exceptions where De Villiers was involved - was not really up to standard.   De Jongh was harmless and brought virtaully nothing to the game.   This implay that the rather averate backline performance cannot be laid at the door of Catrakilis - it was wider our - where attacking backline play literally died with De Jongh.  

Jantjies -  This player is an enigma.   When he is on the field of play - the Lions backline is not as effective as when he is not.   This happened in the past as well and was partuclularly noticeable in the game yesterday.

Based on the need for 15 man rugby against the more sterile 10 man game - the brilliant performance of the Sharks backline should be brought into the overall evaluation of the performances of the two playes who wer the MOM  of the two matches involved.    From an overall performance perspective -   Lambie would get an 8 - as against a 7 for Morne Steym.

In essence - your assessment of Jantjies is spot-on.   He is going to become a poor replica of Morne Steyn - in other words a kicking flyhalf with some deficiecies (for instance defence) compared to Steyn.   The problem is that neiter Steyn ot Jantjies provide an answer to the sterile performances of the Springbok backline.   This has been proved over and over during the past test season.   Goosen really showed that attacking backline play on the part of the Springbok backline is possible and can be further developed.   This would never result from the generl pattern of play by Steyn - who in essence remains a one-dimensional player.

It was for that reason that I was delighted by what Lambie brought to the Sharks game Frifay night.   .  

   

    


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6466
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 16:08:35

Mike there are two differences between Case Potgieter and Case Morne. Firstly Morne has already proven he can play test rugby, so a return to form on his part suggests he could again be effective in tests. Potgieter has never proved that, in fact he has proven he can't play test rugby.....so good form by him suggests he is doing well at a level that suits him. Secondly Morne's success is not based on mainly on effort.....Potgieter's frequently is.....effort is rewarded at CC level, but is the norm in tests.

 

So I think Morne's success is worth watching, whereas another good CC game by Potgieter maak niks.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10269
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 16:25:39

Mozart

I should not have mentioned that Porfiter issue - I was just being facetious.

Let me ask yo frankly - is Morne Steyn not questionable in respect of attacking backline play or not?   I think our differences arise from the fact that I think he is.   That makes it not possible to effectively play 15 man rugby.   I think that is why most people in fact would rather not see him in teh Sprigfbok team.

Morne was always a top goalkicker and that cemented his position in the team - by instinct he never was an attacking player.   The strong point was always his goalkicking - coupled to strategic kicking as well.   Both of those attributes were in serious decline with year.    I am glad he has recovered some of his kicking fotm - but that in my book des not really qualofy him to be the backline attacking pivot.

It is for that reason that I was particularly interested in the performance of Lambie - a much more isntinctive and creative backline player than Morne.   I was in tenth heaven when I looked at the backline play of the Sharks on Friday.   Ir showed me that backlines can still carry balls and create try-scoring opportunities after years of one-dimensional backline play we have in the Springbok team become accustomed to.

.  .        


DbDraad

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 667
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 17:39:57

Morne is a proven talent. He will be back with a bang!


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2936
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 17:40:36

 It is boring watching Morne play. Watching Goosen against Australia was such a breath of fresh air.

We could have won that game using our backline even if we had got dominated in possesion and territory.

Our forwards are not going to win every game, like when we played in Argentina this year.

If Goosen was at flyhalf in Argentina we could have got our wings into the game more, and centres as well to be more unpredictable and dangerous. Most of Argentina is playing in Europe and they are used to the forward battle, but not fast outside backs. I would like to see the Springboks win games by having a better backline than just relying on the forwards arm wrestle. With Habana and JP Pieterson we have the 2 best wings in the world. Some would argue differently about JP, but not many argue that Habana is the best in the world. If Habana and Pieterson can get much more involved, even if they get allot of poor ball they will make something out of nothing. Morne when in form will allways be good behind a dominant pack that gives him space and time. However when he is behing a losing pack he is dreadful even when he is on form. 

Lambie for me is the logical choice to play flyhalf when Goosen is injured. Running onto the ball is imperitave for South African style of play. That gets the forwards behind the ball and the backs into the game for 15 man rugby. This style of play became really popular from Rod Mcqueen in Australia the Brumbies coach, and was implemented by Natal by Ian Mcintosh. The old Naas Botha stand deep in the pocket is the Morne Style. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10269
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 21:12:58

Mozart

Because I wanted to check out the above - I watched the game again today and came to the following conclusions:-

*    Morne's contribution to the game as a whole comprised basically his kicking at goal;

*    The rest of his contribution can be rated as of no real consequence.   He still kicked away and in one case kicked a dropped goal with a huge opportunity toi initiate backline play.   He did pass some balls to the backline or forwards near to him - ut that really only let to mauls.

*     Jantjies contribution when ge came on was minus 7 points that came about - because of a thoughtless and aimless kick that let to a Blue Bulls try.

His goalkicking was good - the rest of the game mediocre.  

Sharkbok

I agree with you that watching Morne play at flyhalf is like watching a pre-programmed robot going through a set number of actions.   He really produce nothing that adds value to backline play.    

 


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 14, 2012, 22:29:38

Amazing the lenghts people would go to try and persuade others to join them in hating one person. Why write close to a thousand words spread over tthree posts to say when you could just say: "I Hate Morne Steyn"?

 

Maybe it explains the picture of you in your "office".


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10269
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 07:16:27

Bongani

Hate is an ugly word - it implies hatred of a person as such.   I do not hate Morne Steyn - I emphatically stated that he is by all accounts a real gentleman and nice person.   Same with Jantjies.

I only try to illustrate by example why they do not in my book makes the grade as flyhalfs.   Other people think differently - but then they are entitled to their own opinions on the issue.   That is the crux of the issue and the reason why most of the members remain interested in discussing issues on this board. 


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 09:23:37

Ou Mikey, I suggest that you parctice what you preach. You have been on this Morne Mission almost from the day when you started posting on this board, and you just keep on and on with it. You say that others are entitled to their opinions, yet the moment someone see something positive about the guy, you jump in to try and ridicule what has been said.

 

You are so obsessed with Morne Steyn that you haven't even noticed that, in essence, the opining post, despite the topic title, was actually about Elton Jantjies, but you immediately turned it into a Morne Steyn bashinh session again.

 

If you have a good look at the opening post and think about it, you would find that there is something very alarming. If you were to get your way, and Morne Steyn is removed from the equation, then Jantjies obviously becomes a major roll player at flyhalf. With Goosen's injury, we would actually be left with Jantjies as the No1 flyhalf in your books. I would rather not even think about the consequences.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10269
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 09:43:07

Bongani

Thanks for pointing out to me the correct interpretation.   I got caught by the heading - not so much the content.

I must admit that I do not like the playing style of Morne Steyn and has been more than repetative on the issue.   Where I do agree with Mozart ( and incidently also Stranski) is as to the playing style of Jantjies as manufactured and aanything but affective.   

I am sorry if I offended anyone in this regard - but I suppose I should not hammer Morne Steyn as I did in the past.   Incidentally he is a thorough gentleman and work very hard at his game - but I still stand by my viewpoints about his playing style.  


BonganiP

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 229
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 10:17:48

"Bongani

Thanks for pointing out to me the correct interpretation.   I got caught by the heading - not so much the content."

 

Wouldn't it be easier to say: "I read the heading and made up my mind about what the contents of the opening post was going to be. I subsequently ignored the rest of the post in total and then formulated my preconceived reply"


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10269
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 11:13:37

bongani - right again.


Beeno1

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RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 11:52:48

Mike thanks for your thoughts and comparisons re the various flyhalves. What was pleasing was that two contenders earned man of the match awards. 

One thing to bear in mind - had Morne had his kicking boots on we would have won in Dunedin and in Argentina. Could we also have won in OZ?  Dont despise a good kicking flyhalf. Had we had a goal kicker on form we would quite possibly have won the comp.  

Goosen must be given every opportunity to develope normally and he MUST NOT BE RUSHED!!!!!!!!  Physically he is NOT ready.

 

I also note that Coenie was rushed back with indecent haste. Vermuelen too but he seems to have survived.

 


Beeno1

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Posts: 8954
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 12:23:53

Some food for thought to Mike and Saffex and al lthe Morne bashers

By David Moseley ex Sport 24

If we wanted to be harsh, and in South Africa we are never harsher than when appraising the success or failure of the Springboks, we could say that Morne Steyn’s finest moments in a Springbok jersey came inside his first four Test matches.

Briefly, Steyn made his Test debut when he came on in against the British & Irish Lions in the 61st minute of the second Test at Loftus. We all know how that ended, with Steyn sinking the Lions in the 80th minute thanks to a nerveless penalty from 53 metres. The Springboks won the series with that kick and Steyn earned a starting spot in a rag-tag team to play the dead rubber a week later.

Later that season Ruan Pienaar was reinstated as first choice flyhalf (he started the Lions Series at 10) for the opening Tri-Nations fixture against New Zealand in Bloemfontein, with Steyn coming off the bench to land three penalties in a 28-19 win. The next weekend in Durban Steyn started against the All Blacks and scored a try, a conversion and eight penalties to take home all the points in a 31-19 win for the Boks.

In that match he claimed the record for most points scored by a player who has scored all their team's points (31), the most points scored against New Zealand in a single Test and the South African record for penalties in a Test (8) – beating the seven achieved twice by former fullback Percy Montgomery.

Since then Steyn has gone on to score 486 points for the Boks, while also achieving the record for most consecutive successful kicks at goal in Tests (since statistics for that category were first kept in the late 1980s). His hot streak included 41 successful attempts that ended on November 6, 2010 against Ireland.

Do the stats lie?

Being cultured rugby watchers I know you know all the stats. And we all know that the stats often don’t tell the full story. But it’s important to look back on Steyn’s contributions to the national cause as we look to debate his future in the Springbok side. Say what you like about the man in his current guise, but look at those figures, particularly his achievement in coming off the bench in his Test debut to win a series that the team was desperate to win.

On paper, South Africa was the better team going into the Lions series. Somehow, through muddled selection and Peter de Villiers’ lunacy, the Boks contrived to keep the British & Irish Lions in that series when they should have been dead and buried, nay, pulverised to pieces after the first Test.

Instead the Boks gave them a sniff and so the second Test remained in the balance until Heinrich Brussow, Jaque Fourie and Steyn all came onto the field (all three of them around the 55-60th minute mark). As an aside, remember too that Brussow only came on because original substitute Danie Rossouw was knocked out cold with two minutes of coming off the bench.

So, for Steyn to rise to the occasion in the manner he did, when a desperate home side was throwing everything at the tourists, coupled with his all-star performance of 31 points (only his second start for the Bok) against the All Blacks and taking into account his slew of kicking and points records for the Boks since then, we can safely surmise that he is a man of incredible courage and mental strength.

Unfortunately, he’s a victim of his own success. We sing (the praises) when he’s slotting from all angles and the Boks are winning. But as soon as they lose all the blame falls on Steyn. Why? Because he’s the easiest target. We’ve fallen into the misconception that he’s only selected for his kicking. So when he starts duffing his one trump card, the mindless vultures are quick to peck out his eyes and pick apart his game.

More sober-minded rugby fans will realise that in the time Steyn has been playing international rugby he’s hardly had a direct competitor for the No 10 jersey
. It’s also worth pointing out that he’s been the only consistent selection at flyhalf in almost a decade of Bok rugby, so fans have had plenty of time to adore him, question him and, finally, berate him.

Consider the man he replaced, Ruan Pienaar. Somehow the fabulous yet infuriatingly inconsistent scrumhalf has amassed 60 Test caps without ever really imposing himself in the Green jumper. (Too passive for my liking)

Pienaar moved off to Europe in 2010, leaving Steyn as the sole candidate for international flyhalf honours. Since Steyn made his debut there have been calls for Peter Grant (excellent at domestic level, but never a serious contender for prolonged national duty) to get a crack at 10, try Frans Steyn (who played wing in his first Bok Test), while even Earl Rose was championed (by those on crack cocaine) at one stage.

The harsh reality, though, is that no one in domestic rugby has been breathing down Steyn’s neck… not before he made his Bok debut, and not until Patrick Lambie showed up, and then Elton Jantjies and now, or course, the injured Johan Goosen. It’s also worth mentioning that the exciting talents of Goosen only managed to wrangle their way into the Bok side due to public pressure and a dip in form from Steyn, and had absolutely nothing to do with Goosen performing at a sustained level of excellence. How could he, he was injured for most of the season.

Enter the nightmare

In fact, the flyhalf position is something of a black hole for Springbok rugby. Before Morne Steyn made his Test debut in 2009, the last out-and-out flyhalf to debut for the Boks was Andre Pretorius in 2002 (Butch James made his debut a year earlier). That’s quite outrageous for a so-called rugby powerhouse.

In between the debuts of Pretorius and Steyn (looking specifically at 10s to make their debuts in that time period) Springbok fans have witnessed a conveyor belt of pretenders sliding in and out of the flyhalf jersey. Derick Hougaard, Meyer Bosman, Ruan Pienaar and Peter Grant have all had a crack, only to fall through them. Remember also that Brent Russell (debut in same Test as Andre Pretorius) won four of his 23 caps at flyhalf. So the national side has hardly been blessed with Stephen Larkham, Daniel Carter or Jonny Wilkinson-like consistency at 10.

Lambie, Jantjies and Goosen have all come along to steal Steyn’s thunder, with the likely near-future tussle to be a three-way affair between Steyn, Goosen and Jantjies. It’s fair to assume, based on Heyneke Meyer’s (mis)use of Lambie this season, that the Sharks man will have to produce miracles to get more than 20 minutes on the field, let alone a starting No 10 jumper.

All this is to say that Steyn, so often maligned for simply doing his job, has hardly had to once look over his shoulder. It’s also horribly unfair to criticise the man, and now praise Goosen over-enthusiastically, when it’s quite evident that Steyn has been following the tactics of his coach(es).

Steyn has his limitations as a creative force, but he’s only doing what he’s told out there
. Goosen comes into the side with much unjust fanfare and all of a sudden the Boks are the new All Blacks, with a new strategy and new game plan (Hahahahhahaha). That’s the hardly the case (Jean de Villiers himself noted in a post-match interview with Matthew Pearce that the Boks barely changed their tactics during the win against Australia at Loftus), but it looks that way to the naked eye because everyone has convinced themselves that Steyn just hoofs it up in the air.

Steyn for one more

But what now, for Europe? Goosen is out and Elton Jantjies is technically the current incumbent at 10. Do you start him at flyhalf against Ireland, Scotland and England?

Past history dictates that Ireland is the main game on this end of year tour
. Three out the last five Test matches between the two nations have been won by Ireland (the last being a narrow 23-21 away for the Boks in 2010), with a testy little rivalry developing between the two nations at the same time. If any match on tour comes down to the wire, it will be this one.

This is also the first fixture of the tour, so more than anything it’s a must-win game for a Bok side that performed realistically about par this year, but by fan expectation way below level. Do you go with the exciting, dazzling Jantjies or the proven match-winner Morne Steyn?

That would be an easy question if the Boks had come out of the Rugby Championship on a high – play the kid, excite the nation. But Meyer is fighting for wins and, whether he admits it or not, approval from Bok supporters (and possibly his employers).

Similarly, the last time South Africa (four wins in last five games) played Scotland the Scots ruined the Boks’ chances of a Grand Slam in a soaked Edinburgh. Jantjies or Steyn? In that weather? Go on, you’re a brave man to throw Jantjies to the wolves when pride is at stake (that being said, I’m no fan of cotton-wooling youngsters. If you’re good enough, you’re old enough).

Based on past records, the only surefire win of the tour is against England (9 wins for the Boks in 10 previous matches, with only that miserable draw in PE earlier this year breaking the habit).

Jantjies was sure-footed and showed no signs of being over-awed at the FNB Stadium this past Saturday. No mean feat in front of 80 000 supporters praying for a win. He’s clearly a player for the big occasion, but up until now he hasn’t been the out-and-out favourite to start at flyhalf for the Boks. The pressure has always been on Steyn, then Goosen (did it show in those missed kicks?) and only now will the Lions man feel it’s full, furious force.

Morne Steyn is no one-match wonder
. He has the stats to prove that he’s the man for the big moments. Barring a catastrophic meltdown in the remainder of the Currie Cup he’ll probably show glimpses of his old form, perhaps even regain his full confidence.

If he does, then he’s got to be your starting 10
for the end of year tour. It won’t be footloose and fancy-free rugby, and with the Bok pack looking settled, Steyn will have the space he craves to make his mark. Ruan Pienaar will also be back on the continent where he seems to play his best rugby, so perhaps the two of them can combine to create some glorious, sweet, winning music.

Steyn’s days are clearly numbered, because it appears that in Jantjies and Goosen South Africa finally have the flyhalves they’ve been wishing at shooting stars for (like London busses, they never come on time, but when they do they arrive in pairs).

Short term, and looking at this tour in isolation, Morne Steyn goes. And starts.

Case closed. 
 

Not quite. Lambie to my mind is ahead of Elton.  Meyer said he would not consider Lambie if he was not playing flyhalf well he is and has just won a man of the match award. Quite a lot hingeing in the performances of some players over these next two wek ends.

Meanwhile Oz and the abs sit back and watch us run ourselves ragged! 


Saffex

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Posts: 7569
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 15:37:19

I take it you never saw the match then Moz???? It was a complete joke that Morne got MOM - he got it for kicking for poles...........the rest of his game was at best average, with predictable up and unders all day, which as Joel pointed out would have lost them the match had they played the Sharks or WP.

So now Goosen is a stringbean - let me guess you would have good old Morne as the Bok 10 ahead of Goosen based on his wonderful display against the mighty Lions!!

This mirrors your pathetic take on Taute in that test against the AB's - yes he had a crap game, as did most of the Boks on the day. He missed vital tackles as did Habana and Jean, but as per usual you lay the blame at Taute's door - a player who had a great game against Oz the week before and now is a no hoper in your eyes. Hell Conrad Smith has had one of the worst defensive stats in this years S15 and you bang on about how we need a centre to be able to challenge this guy - Smith is a handy player, but special he is not. For the record it was Dagg who beat Taute, not Smith.

The icing on the cake was your take on the fact that a combo of useless Morne, Jean and de Jongh would have won us that test - you really sound like a conservative old tannie - forever looking to take a backwards step - what a pathetic test combo that would be. We have moved on from Morne at 10, we now need to do the same with Jean at 12 - who apart from one test against England has been poor to average all year. de Jongh should never ever be considered - again a non entity at CC level over a weekend.

We are sorted at 13 with JP, JJ, Taute and Jordaan as options- same can be said of 12, where Frans, Venter, Whitehead and Serfontein are the way forward.

At 10 its Goosen and Jantjies - Morne is history and his display for the Bulls but for his kicking for poles confirmed it.

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6466
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 16:20:50

Whew! Dave I thought you were so humiliated you would never come back. But it only took nine days!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 17:14:05

Why would I be humiliated? Because Taute missed a few tackles, much like Jean did?

It was you who pointed out how great he was defensively against Oz!!

So what's it now - he cant tackle

Loved you balming his mis touch for a try - wow next we require all our 13's to be influentual touch finders!!

Wrong Moz, it was one bad second half by most our Boks including Taute who was poor defensively - one poor half does not define a player, especially defensively when the week before he was spot on in that department

You are just so fickle when it comes to our players - let me guess you dont rate Goosen anymore?

But the trump is your crap asking that we go back to players like Bakkies and co - talk about backwards and conservative - its so much the SA way - no wonder we never progress to that number 1 spot - simple reason, too many at the Bok top think like you do


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10269
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 18:35:51

Saffex

I have been trying to tell members that you cannot select people to the Springbok team purely oon the basis that they were Springboks in the past.   They have to perform well in Super 15 and in CC games to show whether they are still up to standard.   We do not see enough of the games in Europe to form a defnitive opinion on player performances and we see none of the games played in Japan.

My problem is that the issue of performances are basically not thought through properly - and then we end up with hankering back to the past as a solution for future Springbok selection.

Indicentally - I tried to look at performances of various players fom9ing back from the Springbok squad when they played in the CC games on Friday and Saturday.   Insifar as flyhalf play is concerned - Lambie was miles ahead of the other flyhalfs.    He was the key to an exllent backline performance by the Sharks.   I think he will remain as flyhald in the Semi-final on Saturday and in the final if the Sharks beat the Bulls this coming Saturday - which I think would be the case.

Morne did very well in goalkicking - but very little otherwise.   Jantjies came off the bench as a 12 and did nothing noticeable - but to kick a ball away - the direct result of which was a try by the Bulls.   

As far as I am concerned Lambie should be the first choice flyhalf - while Goosen is off injured.    Still don't like Jantjies.   He was poor in the test and towards the end the Sprinboks as a result did not pass balls to him at all.

One of the favourite experienced pluers of some is De Jongh.   I watched the WP game and he was average and produced NOTHING.  Useless - that one.   I share your opinion about the tackling issue insofar as Taite is concerned.   The main problem has been Hougaard - his defence om the wing is non-existent.

One thing about the weekend games is that Pietersen is abck and he played very well.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6466
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 19:06:34

If we just had our RWC backline:

 

Lambie, JP, Fury, Jean, Habana, Morne , F du Preez....we would probably have won that test. Mike can bang on about Morne, you can bang on about the youngsters....but that's the truth. Not one of the young guys outplayed his NZ opponent.....not even Etzebeth.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 22:18:09

Oh good one, lets bring back Morne and we would have won that one - ha, ha and now all of a sudden you want Fourie back - go figure.

Fact is our forwards won the battle - check the territory and possession stats in the first half for a start.

Are you seriously telling me the average Retallick was better than Etzebeth???? - man Moz you do make it up.

We lost that test through individual errors, poor defensive organisation in the backs - where was our leader Jean?? And Habana's nightmare of a match defensively hardly helped - he seemed to think that charging out of alignment was the way forward.

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6466
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 23:11:58
Actually we lost that test because Taute made three school boy errors


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 23:19:12

Yeah sounds like the same crap you dished out blaming Flip for a test loss.

So lets get this straight - Taute missed a tackle, how is that different to the ones Jean missed - let me guess, Jean at the time of the miss throught to himself, hell its ok to miss this one, because hey the opposition wont score from my miss!!

As for all those missed touches by most players - hell lets blame them to. Moz you truely are a tonic

Answer me this - was it ok for Jean and Habana to miss as many tackles at Taute did?


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6466
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 15, 2012, 23:56:20
No, both jean and Habana missed tackles.....but it was the Taute mistakes(3) that led directly to the loss.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7569
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 16, 2012, 00:17:16

Oh so Jean and Habana's misses are excuseable as they did not directly lead to tries - do you know how stupid that sounds?

As for Taute, only his miss on Dagg lead directly to a try and lets face it Dagg makes a habit of slipping tackles - he beat Taute fair and square, good shimmy and gas to beat his man. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10269
RE: Whoops Morne gets the MOM....this wasn't supposed to happen
October 16, 2012, 06:39:24

Mozart

Retallick was extremely dicey all game  long.   He gave away directly three of the penalties and was tendering for a red card with the spear tackle on Bekker - was extremely lucky to get awat with that one.    Je wa at best mediocre.    You can quote the stats as much as you like - he really was not better than Etzebeth.

Insodar as your backline is concerned - there is no way that inclusion of Morne in the Springbok backline would have helped in any way whatsoever.   His goalkicking improved in the game last week - but his goalkicking under pressure in a test would not have improved.   The All Blacks love it to have Morne in the flyhalf posirion - he is far too predictable.   The Morne play would probably have cost the Springboks abother three tries scored like the one scored by Whitelock.

As to Fouuie and Du Preez - are they included in your backline based  on reputation or have you seen any games played by them in Japan?   Back to the past is not answer to anything and no investment in future development of the team. 

Saffex

I tend to agree with Mozart that Taute made some real plonkers in the test - but I always say it was his second test he played at 13.    To write him off on that basis is unfair.    As far as I am concerned his worst error was that relieving kick that led to the Whitelock try.    In the second half he played outside Jantjies - and that was a real disaster.   

Jantjies early in that half got the ball 4 times.   The first time he made a line lkick directly into touch - losing territory badly - followed by three hospital passes that led to nothing.    Adter that the players themselves did not pass the ball to him - they either passed back to the forwards or to the no 12.   

People easily blame the rest of the backline for poor defence - but Jantjies never even went forward to try and defend againsta any backline attacking moves by the All Blacks.    That put pressure on the backline players further out.   The real defensive problems started with Jantjies and Jean - and ended up with Taute and Hougaard.   In fact the one missed tackle Mozart blamed Taute for was in fact an attempted tackle by Hougaard that he missed.

You can argue till you are white in the face - but Jantjies is NOT international material.   He can kick at goal - but under pressure missed a sitter goal kick in the second half of the test.   His contribution to backline play can at best be described as iffy - like Stranski said it is not naturaln  but manufactured play.   I don;t think he would even be in the squad for the end of year tour.

As a future investment in development of flyhalf play - we effectively have only two options - Goosen and Lambie.    WP is going to contract Jantjies to play at flyhalf for the Stormers next season.   They would soon enough find out it is a disastrous waste of money.   They are also trying to get Taute - that would be a massive relieve for them - since they can then leave out De Jongh (anoother favourite of Mozart) and their backline may just improve if they pick somebody else - but Jantjies - as flyhalf.   In any event the ommission of Jantjies from their starting line-up will happen early in  Super 15 next year - just wait and see. 

 

In essence - I do not blame Taure alone for the defensive shambles in the second half od the test.   Persnally I think that there is no way that Taute should be discarded after two tests - based on problems in the last of the two.    

  

   

     


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