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2612 Topic: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
World Champs

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 118
Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 04:11:25

It is clear that every team that has won the Rugby World Cup has had a captain of exceptional quality but more importantly these players were part of the squad for a long periods and developed their leadership through both success and failiure. No doubt that Richies record stands head and heels above all predecessors who have held the cup aloft.

 

However, SA at the moment have no one other than Schalk Burger whom could possibly take this team into the next RWC and bring inspiration and leadership required to meet the massive emands of the RWC. This is a serious problem for SA as the younglings in the Bok squad need serious leadership as results have shown lately that JDV is just not coping in anyway with the captaincy role.

 

Bismark, Strauss, Eben even are these guys that could take it over from JDV.......The issue is that Hulk Burger will in all likelihoods may not be around for the next RWC as he is now a glassbowl like Goosen so maybe Kankowski or Spies  to lead your troops?

 

1987 - Andy Dalton/David Kirk

1991 - Nick Farr-Jones

1995 - Francois Piennar

1999 - John Eales

2003 - Martin Johnson

2007 - John Smit

2011 - Richie MaCaw

 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 04:44:36

 A bigger problem is for the All Blacks. Clearly Mccaw is the expected captain for 2015. Will Mccaw and Carter be around by the next Worldcup? The games will be played in England and will require stronger ball carrying fowards and maulers. Also a tactical kicker like Carter who will in most likely be injured or finished. Cruden has showed little kicking ability. Each season Carter is getting more fragile. As for Mccaw, he can have his sabatical. As soon as his loses his speed he will not be able to get to the ruck fast enough to lie all over the opposition ball or players to slow possesion down when the All Black forwards are being dominated. 


nukefreekiwi

Status: Squad member
Posts: 441
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 05:05:27

 Re Cruden. Lol. So far the fragile Cruden has won a RWC ( in his first year as an AB) the Bledisloe Cup, the Mandela Plate/Cup?, the inaugural Championship Trophy and a Super title. . Gee whiz. How does Aaron manage to sleep at night knowing he is so inept, unqualified and fragile?  Crudens greatest flaw is that he has never tasted the bitter pill of failure/defeat. His All Black career is unblemished thus far (unlike his young counterpart in the Republic who has drank from the well of commiserations a little too often). 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3408
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 05:12:21

 Cruden was part of a squad that won all the tournaments but not the first choice(except for SuperXV).

Carter got injured(again) in the worldcup, then Cruden played and got injured in the next match I believe. Then the next flyhalf got injured, and finally the 4th flyhalf played. 

That is like saying Jean Devilliers won the 2007 worldcup when he played 20 minutes in the first game and was then injured. Forget about Bledisloe Cup, the Mandela Plate/Cup. These are not tournaments, they are just some pr crap. The tournament is the Championship Trophy. 


nukefreekiwi

Status: Squad member
Posts: 441
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 05:29:06

 Wrong again boet. I think you're thinking about Colin Slade. Cruden replaced Colin Slade and played in several games including the vital semi final match against Ausfailure before getting injured in the final against France. He  then replaced by Steven Donald. So your whole " That is like saying Jean Devilliers won the 2007 worldcup when he played 20 minutes in the first game and was then injured" kind of falls flat on its face much like your national rugby team.  

 

I also like how you glossed over all his other achievements like they mean nothing. Funny how unimportant trophies become when you don't win them aye boet. I think we both know you wouldn't be as dismissive of these accolades if they in SARU s trophy cabinet. 


World Champs

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 118
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 05:42:34

Shark  - great way to avoid a massive problem that is facing Bok rugby. We have Kieran Reid whom is being groomed as the next captain but MaCaw will take us all the way again. Even a 40% MaCaw is better than the best from SA.....We make more use of the ball we get because we play smarter instead of picking the Glassboy Goosens, No tackle Tautes, I fell into his face Greyling, 120kgs of lard Flip, run around fast but do nothing Potgeiter, Dont know what position to play Houugard, Ruann I need 4 more years to come good Piennar......wow South Africa has some dumb and useless players..."PERIOD"

 

Now answer the question who can fill a massive void that Bok rugby has at this time? I believe there is big big trouble ahead for Heneyeke Meyber...Not good vibes coming out of South Africa 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 06:42:11

World champs

Lovely to live in cloud cuckoo land.   So you want to go forward to the next World Cup with a team with an average age of 35 years and hope to win the cup.   Australia tried to do just that in 1995 and failed -  England tried that in 2007 and failed -  South Africa tried that in 2011 and failed.   History repeated itself - and nobody learns from it.

Of the younger players - you always talk about Retallick - his only moment last Saturday was a spear tackle that should have been an immediate red card.   The veterans gave away enough penalties to fill a cupboard - and there should have been more missed by the referee.    I believe that that last effort by McCaw to play the ball after he tackled Strauss could also have been a yellow card.   The All Black forwards could not secure 50% possession and they were saved by a wonderful display by the All Black backline.

There is another cruel aspect waiting for the All Blacks and that is wider usage of the TV referee - that could only be a real problem for a team that is pushing the limits insofar as breaking of the law is concerned.

I myself always look not only at the ultimate outcome of matches - but also at danger signals that could follow in the following year.   That goes both ways.   I think that the Springboks are playing too many youngsters before they arre physically strong enough.   That applies to players like Goosen - as you so rightly pointed out.   He really needs to get to 96 kilos before he can be played and he would do so with positive gym work and dietary.   I also think they played Oosthuizen in a different position after coming back from 4 months injury and half a CC game - huge mistake.   Same with Taute - that I believe should play at full back in any event.

Now the All Blacks want to give McCaw a 6 months sabbatical and there  are runours of the same for Carter.   Let me put it straight - I always said that McCaw and Carter were really two of the greatest players ever.   However, despite all the praisesinging, both have gone down slowly since 2010 and that showed when you look at the injury situation and even their  style of play.  Carter nowadays stands deeper in the pocket than he ever did before and kick balls more frequently than he did in the past - trying to avoid contact as much as possible - a sure sign of trying to avoid injuries.   McCaw on the other hand is giving away more penalties in the tests this year - than he did in the previous tests in two years.   Signs of slowing down in speed is evident.  

Further proof of the key role of these two players in All Black rugby is the fact that the All Blacks managed to squeese a narrow victory in the final of the WC in 2011 against a French ouffit that really was not the strongest team in Europe.

Let me state clearly - the All Blacks have some youngsters coming through with massive potential -  Aaron Smith is one, Savea is another.    Dagg  is at thus stage the best full back in the world.   and have youth on his side.   However in England the forwards will have to win tight battles up front and that is the crux of the matter.   In looser play the All Black forwards are tops - they can run and hanfle balls like backline players  - in tighter play they are penalty machines and very average.   Read and Whitelock in particular are key candidates to fit into that frame.    

In summary - I do believe that the All Black backline is par excellence - their forwards is below par in tight play - good in loose play - and finally that replacement of Carter and McCaw would weaken the team considerably, whilst their retention to 2015 will be disastrous as to the potential retention of the WC that year.   Strongly put - but that is a fact of life.                      


World Champs

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 118
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 08:06:53

Sorry to pour cold water on your analysis Mike but I just cant understand how you can state what you do and NZ have just gone through the RC against two massive forward packs. If we base and logic on this real point then it is without doubt that the AB's are a very strong, competent, skilled, fast and intelligent forwrad pack. 

 

For all the points you made it proves catergorically that  the way the Boks play just doesnt work. Oh and as for Richie and Dan slowing down is about quality not quantity. The Boks ran 72 times against NZ's 52 and yet we gained 120metres more than the Boks now thats about intelligence, tactics, being smart and not frontal bashing like the dope headed Alberts who trust me wont last long in test rugby playing that style another Hulk Burger in my books but Hulk has a lot more clues in his head.

 

Of course we dont want 35yr olds taking all positions mike thats just being silly but there were some very good players that did last that age however you also dont want a bunch of headless younglings like what SA are trying to manage through at this stage. The last game highlighted to many including SA that they are a long long way away from being at the top and that their are a lot of problems that have now surfaced for SA.

 

Murmurings coming out of the rainbow nation dont sound good

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 09:21:25

World Champs

Nice try to get past my comments - which in fact was analiyical in most repects I hope.   First your take on the Springboks at present - I agree fully on what you say.   The youngsters in the team did not perform as they should.   But there is always a potential for improvement by them by the age of 24-25.   I think that at present we are in a drastic rebuilding phase and we will most likely see steady improvement in play.   With a team with an average age of 25 and players barely out of their teens - they have done well enough amongst the forwards especially.   I am very unhappy about the backline play - and that can only improve,

About the All Blacks play I am not happy about certain aspects.   The forwards are the main problem.  Despite what you say - they are not very intelligent - giving away that many penalties is definitely the exact opposite of intelligence - said to say.   They definitely are very mobile abd good ball handlers - but in tight situations they are really questionable.   To be quite frank - the All Blacks backline is superb - if they had 50% possession on Saturday the win would have no doubt would have been much bigger.   You are right about th meters gained - but that was possible because they were mostly in their own half of the field of play.

I agree there are problems in the SA team - but that is recognized in public so there is a real basis to start correcting problems.   Ignoring problems as if they do not exist - when in fact there are signs of it in evidence - is a real recipe for disaster.   I have been more critical of SA performances than anybody else I know of - but it seems as if in your own interest I try a bit to open some eyes to potential difficulties - people regard me as being against the All Black team.  Let me assure you I am not - I admire the All Black team and think they are the best team in the world at present - but there are indeed danger signals - even though nobody in Ne Zealand will admit it.    


World Champs

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 118
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 09:40:50

Sorry to pour more cold water on your points mike but you obviously dont get it?????

 

When you do what you do and you continually lose then you need tochange something. To say that SA had a very strong forward pack and then still lose twice is you being a slight bit deluded and a whole lot in denial.

 

Our forwards simply outlasted the passioned yet typically undirected Bok forwards whom are always like a bull out of a gate but can never last a whole game. Thats a real problem for SA as its mainly all your fattys that are blowing hard by the 60 min mark.

 

You need not worry about the so called problems that NZ have as SA have much more concerns than we do I suggest you focus on what we do well and encourage HM to duplicate those strengths. Then and only then will SA have any chance of getting close to the record we hold.

 

I said inan another post that its hard and lonely at the top becayuse everyone wants to take you down and pick out everything that they think they know. Funny isnt it NZ still seems to produce consistent rugby year in year out. Even before we had the Carters and Macaws.

 

I disagree wholeheartedly with your analysis mike and I encourage you to please at least acknowledge that SAreally do have some very serious problems with their game no matter how much you talk up the youth power of your forwards.

 


Papamoa

Status: Squad member
Posts: 452
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 09:48:35

Man, I got to tell ya this back and forth..us vs them, this stat vs that stat ..by 2020 this is going to happen. Almost better than t.v. Very entertaining. These prediction against this. Just great. keep it up. You guys should get your own show..


World Champs

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 118
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 10:02:20

hehe thanks pap mikes a goodfulla and nothing wrong with a bit of scrapping but when you hold all the aces in the pack playing against a bluffer then you know that what ever is said is moot simply because we cant lose hehe

 

BTW did you watch Richies interview on tv tonight wow what a guy!!!!


wfunston

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 89
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 11:13:31

@Clevermike,

 

I do agree with some of your points. If the All Blacks keep the current starting 15 up to the next world cup, they will be too old and slow. I do not think this will happen though. A bunch of new players have been introduced, B.Retallick, Luke Romano, A.Smith, A.Cruden, B.Smith, T.Ellison, S.Cane, C.Faumuina and B.Barrett just to name a few. then there are the fringe players (some of whom should get a shot come EOYT). Kerr Barlow, TJ.Perenara, H.Elliott, B.Shields, Andre.Taylor.... What I like about the All Black's management at the moment is that they have made "rebuilding" across the board a thing of the past. The bokke are struggling at the moment because of wholesale changes (and a few injuries), whereas the All Blacks seem to be adopting a steady integration approach. 

 

I do agree that for McCaw to make it to the next WC as the starting captain will be PUSHING it to say the least (Maybe he could defy all logic by proving us wrong). In this regard I would like to see Sam Cane getting more game time and eventually see Read takeover captaincy with Cane taking the #7 jersey over the next couple years. Come WC2015, McCaw could be a handy player coming off the bench to see out those nail-biters.

 

So it depends on how you look at it Mike. To me the future of NZ rugby seems bright. You can add Kahui and SBW (hopefully) to the roster.

 

This Sprinkbok team is brimming with talent. They just so young at the moment and have introduced to many at once (because of injury/form problems).

 

Here is my bokke backline for next year....

9.Hougaard (Give him a proper chance. I do not rate R.P),

10.Lambie (Always thought he should be starting at #10. His talent is being wasted on the bench. Goose will be great but needs slower transition).

11.B.Basson 

12.JDV (Take the captaincy of the man asap! I think we would see him at his best)

13. JPP (I know I'll cop flack for this one but I think he has a lot to offer at 13. Would love to have chosen Fourie and had JP @ #11 though)

14.Habana (He's been doing just fine at 14)   

15.Frans (His best position! Zane can take a walk! Frans is absolute class but being played out of position @ 12 imo)


nukefreekiwi

Status: Squad member
Posts: 441
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 11:22:30

 @wfunston. I like your backline especially franna at FB. His superboot at FB is a formidable weapon and was instrumental in South Africa's PE win against the ABs. Nothing more disheartening than watching the ABs grind  their way  into the Boks 22, only to spill the ball or be dispossessed by an opposition fetcher, then have to backtrack 50-60 metres thanks to a howitzer kick from the mule. Franna is wasted at 13. 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 12:27:46

World Champs

We won't get any further with this discussion.   You believe the All Blacks are 100% perfect with no shortcomings at all.   I agree that they are the top team in the world - but not 100% perfect.

You believe the Springboks are a poor team beyond redemption - I agree they are poor, but is of the opinion that they can only improve.

Lets put the debate on hold until the Championships next year and re-evalate the situation then   


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11904
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 14:51:20

wfunston

Thanks for your response.   I will look carefully at the players mentioned by you during the Super Series next year.   The one players I have been following carefully already are Retallick and Cruden - and I was a bit disappointed at what I saw.   They really need massive further development to say the least.


Papamoa

Status: Squad member
Posts: 452
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 19:10:10

alright, enough,  think we can all agree yes MaCaw and Carter are past there prime but still contribute  hell of a lot threw there experince and leadership thats priceless. Boks need good leadership for up and comers without it the young up and comers are lost.

Will MaCaw and Carter be in the next world cup.....we dont know, I doubt it very much may be there but more support role and motivation, NZ have prospect players coming threw id expect a new look team over next year so by RWC time new comers will be test ready RWC for NZ is top prioriity we may hve to lose a few to win in the end, Boks need those players in there team to stnd up and take leadership in the backs and forwards so when the s###t goes down they have the leaders to keep the team focused.


World Champs

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 118
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 09, 2012, 23:24:41

Pap- probably the only time I will disagree with you. IfRichie and Dan are past their prime then why do they consistently produce world class efforts against the best opposition players? Richie appears to be doing more and DC has the guile, nouse and ability to havethat ball on a string? Mate that is being in your prime is it not!

 

Richie has mastered all other things such as his captaincy, his ability to inspire his troops, lead from the front, his humbleness, his ability to control the refs, his nagging skill not to get caught cheating, ect ect ect

anaoww if thats not being at your prime then you tell me what is?

 

But I do admit that he probably wont be at the RWC but DC maybe? I think by Richie releasing his book that he is actually telling the world that the end is nigh? Did you watch his interview last night on Campbell live,it was really interesting and it was pertinent how the discussion went around to the reason why Jerry Collins decided to leave the rugby scene. Made me think that Richies desire to prove himself any further is just starting to wane as in truth he has nothing more to prove?

 

RWC  - Winner

Bledisloe Cup Holder for 10 years - winner

Inaugral RC Clean sweep - winner

Lions Tour - winner

3 times NH grand slam - winner

Crusaders 4 titles - winner

IRB player of the year - winner

NZ player of the year - winner

Highest score against both the Ausfailiures and Boks - winner

 

What more does this guy want out of rugby???????????????? Bring on Cane slowly unlike what the Boks done with glassboy Goosen. We have Reid whom is going to be another mighty captain all is looking wonderfully well for the future of our World Champs team.......BOOM

 


Papamoa

Status: Squad member
Posts: 452
RE: Further problems ahead for Bok Rugby
October 10, 2012, 03:30:14

Your right past there prime bit harsh, still on fire but by 2015 even they will be pretty much done....however I can see them being there look at THORN that man was tough I see McCaw being like Thorn. Carter not so sure by next RWC be there but as support. Just having them around the team will be valuable.


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