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2602 Topic: Why I am optomistic

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12906
Why I am optomistic
October 08, 2012, 17:43:17

The last two Saturdays showed the reality that we have a long way to go in building a reasonable team that can play 15 man rugby.   It also showed us that the gloom and doom category of posters run away with their comments on the Board.

Taken as a whole it did show us some positives and negatives.    Basically the forwards are sound despite the bad ratings they are given.   For the first time in years we had majority possession and territorial afvantage over the All Blacks - with no Morne Steyn to kick away balls and handing possession over to the opposition.

The main problem remams the backline and that is where Meyer will have to identify the right players for the right postions and work on them to enhance attacking backline play coupled to sound defence   Lets look at the various postions and see what can be done.

15    -   Kirchner is the in[removed]bent - but he really is mediocre.  He was extremely bad in Dunedin - but even against Australia and now the All Blacks he was way below par.   The best thing that could happen would be to replace him as soon as possible.    There are in fact three potential candidates that could be brought in - namely Lambie, Taute and Le Roux (from the Griquas).   Lambie and Le Roux has massive ball sense and can play very attacking rugby and Taute scored one of the best tries I ever saw of any SA Ream in Super Series - when he was  the Lions fullback.  None of the three will let us down.

Wings  -   I have bo problem with Habana and Pietersen.   I have become a great admirer of Rhule of the Cheetahs.  He has the X-factor - a real future star.   My first choice as a back-op wing.

Centers - Especially the All Blacks test showed us that we have major center problems.   De Villiers is past his best and needs to be replaced.   We know already that there are serious question marks as to the ability Francois Steyn to perform.   We also know from Super 15 that De Jongh can defend - but he is absolutely clueless in attack.   Where does the above leave us?   The only way open for us is to wait for the 2013 Super 15 series and evaluate carefully which centers have the potential to develop.   If Francois Steyn makes the grade - good luck to him.   Taute was not really up to it in the last two tests - but there is every chance that he could improve especially if he gets proper coaching.   The other center that this year already showed class in Super 15 is Jordaan.   Looking at the various franchises in Super 15 - there is not much available. at center.   Maybe Mapoe could make the grade - but I have my doubts - he is too one-dimensional     The only way out is to wait with great and precise interest and see what Super 15 produces in 2013.   Lets hope for the best.

No 10   -  I am satisfied that Goosen showed that he has the ability to develop further.   A year of hard work in gym would make him a much stronger player that is not injury prone.   One thing I am really delighted about is that they played Jantjies for the main portion of the game on Saturday - I have always said that he should be given the opportunity to show whether he can make the grade.   Saturday showed one thing - and that he is absolutely useless and should not be anywhere near the team.   That leaves us with a problem as to a back up flyhalf.  Maybe Lambie should be regarded as a potential back up flyhalf - but thn he should eb allowed to play in that position in Super 15

Scrummie - In this position we have a problem.   Pienaar is the only real scrummie we got.   Hougaatd is not a natural scrimmue and his licling game is atrocious - his passing game is also problematic. .   Pienaar was in a quandary last Saturday as to whom to pass to - since Goosen was for the most part either injured or off the field and Jantjies fouled up every ball passed to him.   Eventually Pienaar passed balls back to the forwards or directly to the centers - not to Jantjies.    He was consequently blamed for what happened in the second half - but as indicated that could possibly not be helped.   What is clear to me is that Super 15 next year will indicate the way forward as well

There are solutions to the problems showed up against the All Blacks that could be dealt with in the  next year and I am positive that we would be much better in next years Championship  



Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 56
RE: Why I am optomistic
October 08, 2012, 18:47:23

i pretty much agree with everything you wrote. We seem to have similar ideas on most selections.

We have to be careful not to over annalyse this defeat. Horses for courses i say.One has to be realistic of what you taking on the field. We certainly dont have the backline players like NZ or Samoa, Fiji etc but we do have speed and some strong tough players. When we look at the weekends game we can clearly see that Hougaart was totally out of his depth.The pace and size of the Nz backline players is seriously scary. Do you get the same feeling with a bok backline! We can easily stand man for man to all other countries!

What does interest me is what team HM is taking over on tour! Will he rest Goosen to recover and call up Morne again for those slower fields.

15 -  Le Roux or Lambie or even my fav x factor Aplon.

14/11- as yours above.

12/13 - my fav combo as mentioned before was Taute + Jordaan but to leave out players like F Steyn / JJ englebrecht  or the newby Jan serfontein who did so well in the U21 worldcup would be narrow thinking. I thought our captain de Villiers didnt have such a great game but seeing who he was defending against i can see why. I have a feeling HM will stick with him and Frans as his centres for the tour.

10 - Looking at flyhalfs i probably would have waited for Goosen to recover and use the flyhalf centre combo from WP with  Grant running the backline barring injury. I agree about Lambie doing a great job there but to me the flyhalf must be specialised.I havent seen anything special from Jantjies but he has been unlucky not to play being under Morne. He does well in the Lions so i dont think he can do us any worse.

9- With Scrum half im a big supporter of Sarel Pretorius! His speed and pass is very good. But at best he probably would be the understudy to Pienaar. Pienaar' is a confidence player and gets rattled very easy. Just please dont use Hougaart unless hes being a supersub!

The AB's played very intelligent rugby. The boks were just outsmarted and outclassed. The experience the young boks gained is invaluable. If im not mistaken they had something like 300 tests more than the bok team. Anyways we will improve and im pretty optimistic we can have a great team for 2013.



Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12906
RE: Why I am optomistic
October 08, 2012, 19:17:08


I agree with you about most things.  

I left out Aplon - since he will soon be on the wrong side of 30 - and is not a real investment for the future.

I left iut both Serfontein and JJ Engelbrecht for two reasons.   I am an admirr of Serfontein - but he was given virtually no game time in CC and I am not sure about how he developed since the Junior WC.   Engelbrecht was extremely disappointing in both defence and attacking play in the games he played in CC after his release from the squad.   I also like JP du Plessis from WP and Howard as well.   

I watched Jordaan in the CC game on Saturday.   This guy made two crucial tackles of forwards and he is not afraid to enter mauls and compete for the ball.   He also scored a try with real speed required.   To me  he is virtually the complete package.

I am sure De Villiers will go on the tour - but Francois Steyn is out for the rest of this year.   I think the choice should be Jordaan as center to partner De Villiers.    I am not writing off Taute - but he needs real good coaching over a period.   I hope he goes to the Stormers so that Nienaber can get hold of him.   

I think a move back to Morne Steyn would not be the correct thing to do.   He has too many negatives - the most problematic is not his goalkicking - which went awry this year - but his kicking away possession and his poor passing game.   Grant has his own negatives - but if Goosn is not available - he should be a serious consideration.  

In essence I think that Jantjies is a good CC player - a less effective player on Super Rugby level and a complete no-no on international level.

Indicentally - I like Pretorius and have a sneaking regard for Reinach as well.   Lets wait and see what the Siper Series produces next year.    



Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8716
RE: Why I am optomistic
October 08, 2012, 19:18:57

Actually Mike your posting is pretty much doom and gloom, combined with wishing and hoping. You say Steyn was awful.....but maybe he'll get better. Goosen is a feeble tackler, injury prone and a terminally nervous as a kicker. But perhaps he'll get better. I share that hope, but right now he reminds me most of Gaffie du Toit.


The only one of these young backs who has looked the part is Lambie....I'd play him ahead of Goosen and Jantjies today. He can also tackle.


Is that being a doom and gloomer? Perhaps, but I think it's being realistic. We have the players and traditions to give NZ a go....but only if we get as tough mentally as they are.


Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 56
RE: Why I am optomistic
October 08, 2012, 19:26:55

I agree with both of you! Lambie just has had no oppertunity to display his skills. I hope he doesnt become another Brent Russells.

Must say Reinach has been very impressive! Its a pity there is not a SA A team touring to experience more youngsters.

Forgot about Steyns injury. Guess you right or maybe Jordaan will come off the beanch if chosen.


Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12906
RE: Why I am optomistic
October 08, 2012, 20:28:46


Morne Steyn has been in the team for three years and has never shown anything - but kiclong at goal.   He would never get selected as a flyhalf in any top rated country in the world.   Hos kicking away balls ultinately leads to loss of possession - we never in the years he was flyhalf ever got to the stage where we had in games 50% possession.    His passing game always was hopeless.    I think that wishful thinking apply specifically to him in particular getting any better than he was thus far.  

Where was Goosen a feeble tackler?   He brought down Whitelock short of the line - but Whitelock placed the ball over the line and scored - is that the incident you are referring to?   Any chance of tacklong Whitelock earlier was zero - so why blame Goosen for that? 

Reminding you of Gaffie Du Toit - that is a real insult here.   You apparently are dead set against all the younger players and refuse to recognise the deficiencies in the older ones.   I realise Goosen is inexperienced - but he is definitely talented and should not be written off at this stage of his career.    I believe he should bulk up and gain more strength and said so earlier.   He definitely was playing on Super level too early.




Status: Bok regular
Posts: 639
RE: Why I am optomistic
October 09, 2012, 23:48:35

I agree with the Forwards. Add a healthy Bismark, chiliboy, Brussow, and Shalk and it would make the forwards very deep in depth. Hopefully everyone is healthy and available for selection to make the strongest pack possible.


The backs are not good enough. JDV, Hougaard, Frans were all dissapointing to be honest. Kirchner was  average to below average, and Habana stood out and played very well. One back played great.  That's it. To me, they all looked un-prepared, and stale. Not running onto balls, no organization, not being able to adapt to defences, and just one pass -catch - run into seems there is no system, or creativity. Coaches??




15 - I really like Willie Le roux. I was told his tackling is not up to par though. Haven't noticed it in CC this year though but that's CC....It would be Lambie, le roux, or Aplon

Wings would be the same as you, Mike.

Centres would be Frans and like you said, whatever the 2013 Super rugby season gives us. JDV should not be starting next year.

Fly half - Goosen, and........Morne, Jantjies, Grant........

Scrummie - Pienaar is the best SA I've seen so far, so I would have to pick him. I will throw a replacement name out there.....Van Zyl?? I know he's young, but Seems to have the potential, and size, and plays with Goosen on a free running, attacking Cheetahs side. I could be completely way off base, but he looked good the times I watched the Cheetahs.



World Champs

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 118
RE: Why I am optomistic
October 10, 2012, 00:00:17

If HM took my advice and put this team onn the field then the Boks would get within 7 points ofthe AB's

15 - Fan Stains

14 - Bryan Habana

13 - Paul Jordann

12 - JDV

11 - JP Pieterson

10 - Morne Stains

9 - Frans Houggard

8 - Pierre Spies

7 - Hulk Burger

6 - Frans Louw

5 - Andriess Bekker

4 - Bakkies Botha

3 - BEAST!!!!!!

2 - Bissie Mark

1 - Jannie Mark

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