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2598 Topic: This is what losing the plot looks like
mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6531
This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 15:02:37

So we end the season in total confusion, having won just  2 of our 6 4N games.....a winning percentage of 33.3% for that competition. That's about as low as we ever get, and this time we had 2 Bargie games to pad the record. Those two games, along with the usual  win against Oz at home should have given us 50%. And then if we simply won our home games and beat the Bargies.....a reasonable expectation....we would have had a 66.6% record.

 

There is no way to sugar coat things. Meyer has had a very weak start.....worse in many ways than PdV. And if there is progress from the PdV regime, I can't see it. Poor coaching and player selections have left us prostrate. The only positive thing we can say about Whineke, is that he seems like a decent chap.....I don't think he is a great rugby brain, nor is he a very smart manager.

 

We are left with confusion about our playing style....having stuck to the Bools game plan for most of the season. Then opening things up, we have a win, only to be followed by a complete shambles against the ABs.  Fifteen man rugby is the way forward, but our model is nascent, ill formed....maybe not enough to take on tour with us. Strategy changes in mid stream usually spell disaster for coaches, and so it was with Meyer. He got it wrong by piling in  Bools at the start and sticking with Bools rugby. His first step was the wrong step.....and hard to set right.

 

And then there were the player choices....so many failures.  Greyling, Potgieter, Daniels, Kruger, Coenie, Coetzee, Hougaard at 9, Taute, Steyn at 12, Jean at 13 and Mvovo.  That's eleven missteps. Eleven times we could have been solidifying the team versus going back to the drawing board. These are judgement failures many of which the fans were against from the start. Many of which represent Whineke's idea of power rugby.....Greyling, Potgieter, Steyn at 12 and Taute. All these fatties were supposed to physically dominate their opponents. But it just didn't happen....the pros in NZ and Oz are not intimidated by fatties.

 

So we are left pretty much with nothing or actually less than nothing. A crop of youngsters have been familiarised with failure.....they are less confident today than when the season started. Not one of the young crop, with the possible exception of Etzebeth is established. The oldsters like Jean, Habana, Jannie are a year closer to the end, without clear successors. The game plan is up for grabs.

 

When you start with the wrong vision....and then you vacillate only bad things can happen. Next year will have to be like a first year for Meyer. Let's hope he uses it more effectively. 


hakwa

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2186
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 15:04:55

 this is what losing the plot really looks like


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2951
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 15:52:47

duplicate


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2951
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 15:53:48

This year has mostly been a write off. It could have just been a rebuilding year and the losses would have been acceptable, however not much was rebuilt at all. We finished 3rd in the tri-nations, against an injury Ravished Australia that was still able to beat Argentina home and away. 

Fom the start of the season Clear favouritism to Bulls players destroyed much of the rebuilding- fools like Dean Greyling, Werner Kruger and Potgieter were a complete waist of time. The persistence with Morne when his form deserted him was another wasted oppertunity to play Lambie, Instead Lambie spent most of the season on the bench and only got onto the field at fullback when the matches were allready lost. I dont think Jantjies is the answer, instead Lambie should start at flyhalf if Goosen is injured. We have other players that can play fullback, like JP who started his career for the sharks at fullback and has played succesfully for the boks at fullback. Jaco Taute can add himself to the first season of failure, at least as a bok level center.  He needs to return to fullback and get into form to see if he will be considered again. Kirchner did ok this season, better than I expected but I do not think he is bok material. Aplon would have got more tries and also created more by passing. Aplon understands defence and positional play better than Kirchner as well. The loose forward combination was terribale for much of the season, admittedly this area had been hit hard by injuries. 

I also give Meyer a failure for his report card this year. The end of the year tour may offer something of a rebuilding exercise but maybe not. We have major problems at center and Goosen has been injured again. Lambie is probably out of form having been on the bench for so long.


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 15:55:15

You make a valid point regarding the gameplan. Look, bar Morne Steyn,Dean Greylings selections I dont think this seasons failures can be pointed at individuals rather it should be pointed at the gameplan.

For a team that prides itself on structure, we actually had no structure.

Fatties?? you have some valid points but most of this could have been written in crayon if you catch my drift.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8968
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 16:01:33

"And then there were the player choices....so many failures.  Greyling, Potgieter, Daniels, Kruger, Coenie, Coetzee, Hougaard at 9, Taute, Steyn at 12, Jean at 13 and Mvovo"

Coenie a faliure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He was outstanding against  the English. This is an exceptional player you are talking about. Sucessors for Jannie well how about Coenie . Young Malherbe has also spent time with the 4eboks as have some others.

Potgieter was only in as Burger and Vermuelen were out. However Potgieter got the highest rating of our lossies in the match against the Pumas. Hougaard is very talented and has played well in the past. Coetzee is a good investment a is Taute who should revert to fullback. Guys I did not favour were Kruger Daniel and Mvovo. Even Greyling had performed adequately for the Bulle and had  arespectable tes tagains tthe abs last year in nz. . Who could have imagined such a brain implosion!  Jean at 13 was okay. What you are not taking into account is how little of the ball he saw and a generally inept backline.

Meyer can be faulted  becuase of his appointemnt of Loubscher and his not appointing Nieaber. That said the backline play was not bad agains tthe ABS inDunedin or against Oz.

As for the plan it never was to have an entirely kicking game. They went overboard and tried to run the ball a bit too much and went too loose. The abs kicked about 30 times to our 23. Put the ball behind us and got our backs running at them. I do no tthink Kirchner has the kop to play 15. he however gets credit for effort.

This backline needs to be properly coached, The defensive systemss fixed and new personnle selected.

Pienaar is a problem. He for some weird reaon slipped back into taking forever to send the ball out. Either go back to Hougaard or play a natural expreience scrummie like Vermaak. Give Vermaak a shot on tour. Flyhalves - well I would like to see Lambie. I think he has the brain to make a success of it. Take him and Elton on tour - let Morne rest along with Goosen - leave him out for next year. Junior rugby plu ssuper 15 i quit eenough. Also Cheetahs must not overplay him.

Centers Frans and one of Jordaan or Du Plessis. Wings Bryan and JP and fullback Taute. Now that backline has real clout.  Size and pace wise its fine. South African sides can always defend and our goal kickers are normall ygood good. Sort just these two items out and we are in business.

No one can deny that we won three of the 4 halves we played against nz.  Its crazy really how much of a change in sentiment a win in Dunedin would have made.  Realism demands we take both games into account and what Meyer is dealing with. I see nothing that cant be fixed.  My only concern is his coaching personnel.

 

 


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 16:20:10

I agree with you Beeno

That backline of yours will be very good. I cant believe Taute gets written off by some(2-3) people here after one bad showing,Ive seen worse from Jean(one of my favourite boks over the last 8 years). That shows a lack of rugby intellect.

I think Steyn and Jordaan can become a very good centre partnership, but not with our current backline tactics. No centre can be effective with our current tactics.


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 16:20:12


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8968
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 16:33:27

As I said Rugby 107 Meyer got rid of underperforming bulle players. Will he now appoint the guys he needs.

A very good pack of forwards is develping and we have some really good backs. Our wings are as good as any. Frans must get fit and he is world class. Taute - man surely he could make a fine fullback.

I am still hopefull Meyer will get it right but the assistant coaches are a worry.

to em the dunedin dispaly showed aglimpse of what we can be. Some very weak defence gave the impression to the unwise that the abs are untouchable. Hahahahahahhahaha seriously how daft is that!


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 17:08:20

 Yeah, play as well as you did in Dunedin and you can continue to stay within 10 points of the ABs right Beenkop. 1/7.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6531
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 19:04:17

You guys are delusional.....but then that's a disease in South African rugby.

 

Taute has no centre software, he has no feel for the position. There is no reason to believe this kid is test calibre. We are not writing him off....we are just not writing him in, with no evidence. Last week it looked like he can tackle....the ABs dispelled that myth.

 

Frans Steyn is 5 years from his RWC debut as a test centre.In those 5 years he has lost more than he as gained. He also has little feel the position. And he bombed totally this year.

 

Both these players are fullbacks, but I'd rather have Lambie.

 

As for Coenie he is puts in huge effort.That's admirable....but in tests that effort is matched. Then it's down to technique strength and talent. We have no evidence that a 23 year old kid, who has played loosehead and then severely injured his neck....is going to suddenly morph into a test calibre tighthead. It's a sentimental and foolish call, that hurt us badly on Saturday.

 

If we don't toughen up in our decision making, we wont toughen up on the park.


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 19:31:55

Well I have to agree with you about Coenie, not that he is bad(very good player), but that he got rushed into playing tighthead where he has not even dominated or played much in superrugby. I thought this was a dumb call.

As for Taute, personally for me he can become a great Fullback, but that said I dont think he is a bad centre,so whichever route he decides to go, he needs to be coached in that position. He has a good step, good skills, fast and doesnt get manhandled in contact.

I would like him to further his career as a fullback as he is better when given space, but if he decides to be a centre, then he must play centre the whole time.That way he will get a better feel for the position, which I think can happen.

Frans Steyn was very good at 12 during the last world cup.

Lambie got messed around by his coaches, he has been really bad at 15 during the end of Superrugby, but he is pure class and will be back.

What im trying to get through to you is that Frans etc. hasnt impressed me much during this rugby comp, but that is due to Meyers gameplan(or lack thereof).The same goes for a few players, but you need to look at whether the players mess up attacking ball or are they not getting put into that position to do anything with that ball. Our gameplan has been the biggest failure

Give Taute to Mallet or White and you will see that they can create him into a world class player. If Dagg was rushed into a team as a centre he wouldnt have been great either.


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 08, 2012, 21:31:00

"You guys are delusional....."

 

This from the guy who cant tell Hougard from Taute.

 

So u still think it was Taute who screwed up for the Conrad Smith try Wigboy...... or r u pretending u didnt see my earlier comments?

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6531
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 09, 2012, 00:06:00

Actually I didn't see your earlier comments. This is the least problematic of the three tries Taute gifted the ABs.....I notice you don't mention Dagg stepping Taute out of his sokkies.

 

But lets consider your contention. The ball cames out to Smith who runs up on Jantjies who is planted....Carter loops round and Nonu dummy runs onto Jean. In fact Nonu obstructs Jean and wraps his arms around him....there was a penalty right there....but no matter. Smith is allowed to make 5 metres by Jantjies not coming forward. Then Gear gets the ball in the space Taute occupies. He has support outside him.

 

Taute plants himself in Gear's path without moving....he neither advances to close down his space....nor does he drift to make the pass harder....he plants. The last chance to stop the try is lost there. Gear passes comfortably to Carter  Hougaard comes inside to tackle Carter who passes to Smith in space...... but there is another huge gap as Kirchner is soooooo slow to come in.

 

Who was at fault....firstly Jantjies for planting.....then Taute for not doing something decisive. How many times haven't we seen Fury or Jean rush forward in those situations....Taute's Maginot Line defence was timid and ineffective. Hougaard could have come in sooner, but Carter made only 2metres and would have passed to Smith in space in any case.

 

Summary....this was a clever off side wing insertion combined with a flyhalf wrap around. It was aided by Nonu's obstruction of Jean, who would surely have got across earlier than Louw who almost stopped the try. But given it wasn't called the ABs had a massive overlap...which required the outside backs to force the play inside. Jantjies and Taute did nothing.....they were pylons. Taute had the last chance to save the try by rushing up....he didn't.

 

Minute 1.03, check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHBXm-cjDE


Papamoa

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 280
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 09, 2012, 01:29:20

Gee, Mozart dont be so hard on yourself and your team there trying to defend the undefendable, as far as been there done that,

these are seasoned players going up against rookies. AB knew what they were going to do before they did. They have back up and support thats how you score trys......support,  your defence became stretched not so much man on man but stretched threw lack of experience and knowing what needs to happen to stub out AB creating opportunitys and space to work in there the best at finding weak spots. Look at how they used Cooper to create advatages by kicking directly at him in the RWC and waiting for the bounce.....off his face most times to score.

Experience my friend. Huge advantage just have to do hard yards to get it.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6531
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 09, 2012, 01:55:35

Couldn't agree more.....we lacked experience. But many posters want even less experience by dropping Jean, Pienaar and earlier even Habana. And Saturday is as if it didn't happen. I warned before the tests started we needed to find a balance of experience and a few carefully introduced younger players. Many of our young test hopefuls were playing in new positions and didn't even have a full S15 under their belts. It's crazy, but still not obvious to the youth brigade.


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 09, 2012, 08:28:55

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!

 

Wigboy, Im not talking about Nonus try or who was slow or what u think was clever, Im talking about your WRONG statement (that u made about 4 times) that it was Taute who "rushed inside way too early" (your words) when Conrad Smith scored rather then F Hougard.

 

Just admit u screwed up or we have 2 assume u cant tell Taute from Hougard or else u cant tell the no. 11 from the no. 13.


Rugby107

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 88
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 09, 2012, 08:46:00

Jalapeno, some people see what they want to see to prove a point.

No point in arguing with someone who refuses to see the truth, but that is his oppinion so I guess we have to respect that.

I rather like to look at numerous facts rather than one, but that is just me. You can see wrong in any player if you really want to. If I had to go look for clips to make any player look bad, I can.

Some people have a perception of a player and that wont change easily. One bad missed tackle on Dagg( amazing player)  wont let me think all of a sudden think that Taute is a bad defender. If Taute keeps on missing tackles like that, then I will agree with Mozart.


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 09, 2012, 08:53:53

R107, I cant respect dishonesty.

 

Its obvious from his comments that Mozart thought it was Taute who cut inside just before C Smiths try & now hes trying 2 make out it was still Tautes fault even tho he got the players mixed up....... but he cant admit it.


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6531
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 09, 2012, 14:47:02

RooiAAS....I wont even try to explain to you that if Hougaard never came inside Carter had a free run to the line.  But you say you don't respect dishonesty. How about posting under an alias and altering a few stylistic elements to confuse matters. That's fundamentally dishonest .


Jalapeno!

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 602
RE: This is what losing the plot looks like
October 09, 2012, 14:54:25

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

 

All I can say is...... this is what losing the plot looks like!

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

 

 


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