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2561 Topic: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6442
Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 18:54:44

Coenie, Marcel gave away crucial penalties. Jantjies kicked, Goosen tackled feebly and Taute, my god, what a mess. Taute had a hand in three AB tries:

 

1) He failed to kick out from behind the line, when our whole defence was ragged....try ABs.

 

2) He totally misses Dagg in a simple one on one....try ABs.

 

3) He comes in off his position when Jean  was placed to make the tackle....and his man Smith runs in unopposed.

 

Dave are you happy now?


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6442
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 19:40:51

The question we have to ask ourselves is....with Morne at 10 and de Jongh at 13 would we have won this match. Maybe be not....but the guys who were playing instead of them were a big part of the problem.


Papamoa

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 263
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 19:58:57

 Large gap between NZ and Bok backline. Fact AB being down at half time and scoring 20 unanswered in second half is truth to that. Even being starved of possession in first half yet still crossing line twice. Kicking cost BOk dearly think was at 50% needs to be min of 80% in these tests.


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 20:11:27

Moz,

 

We may see Morne back for the EOYT to bring some solidity of some sorts? Goosen needs more time and concerning that he is injured afterall his troubles this year. Taute, well who can disagree with you?

 

Pap - JP Pieterson, Jacques Fourie, a fitter Frans Steyn can make a huge difference to our backline but the AB backs are like no other and DC is "king" I hope Goosen has been watching his play closely


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 20:11:29

Moz,

 

We may see Morne back for the EOYT to bring some solidity of some sorts? Goosen needs more time and concerning that he is injured afterall his troubles this year. Taute, well who can disagree with you?

 

Pap - JP Pieterson, Jacques Fourie, a fitter Frans Steyn can make a huge difference to our backline but the AB backs are like no other and DC is "king" I hope Goosen has been watching his play closely


Papamoa

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 263
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 20:36:58

 Yea Goosen is intelligent enough hell study Carter best in the world, highest test point scorer with 1,330 points and 90 caps man is the best.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8870
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 21:06:29

Moz, Moz, Moz, youngters will make mistakes and initially you pay a price. To me it shows again we need Nieaber - a master of defence.

Nice to see we got both possession and territorial domination. Its a start and  a good platform to build on.

Oh the ups and downs and lack of emotional stability of some. Fueled of course by the ignorant kiwi bird brains and sucked up by some genuflecting saffas. Bwahahahahahhaha sorry oaks but the writing remains on the wall.

 

 


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 21:10:19

 You've won 1 from the last 7 against us, we are your masters, you are our prison slaves, bow down Beeno.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8870
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 21:20:58

poooooooooo class is permanent and we will be back on top as you well know.

these kiwi bird brains are suffering from severe delusions!


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5381
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 21:22:24

it was a bad move from meyer to sub of jannie instead beast, cos connie who i rate as one of the best props in the world, was found wanting big time against the All Blacks when forced to play tighthead.
he apparently has had some experience at tighthead and has played a few games there for the cheetahs at meyers request, but international stage is the ultimate level and connie IMO failed.

and i dont want to say i told u so, but taute was always going to be weak link against the All blacks, and why i would have preferred from boks point of veiw started de jong who has some big match experience and more importnatly a combo with JDV and the familirity of each others game thanks to their time with the stormers.
it was predictable to see the All blacks target taute, even when janties came on, they directed more traffic down tautes way and rightly so, cos thats just smart rugby.
IMO Boks need jp pieterson back big time and they need him in the No13, cos none of their centers in 2012 have been adequate.

i also dont think that goosen was ever fit for this match and those bogus reports saying he was has me shaking my head and thinking how foolish.
IMO if goosen was fit he could have cnotributed a lot more, but i did think that janties was the best Bok back after habana. janties wasnt great, but he did preform his duties without being compromised too much, if at all and even tried a few attacking plays. janties was IMO was a silver lining in the Boks All Blacks cloud.


All Black NZ

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 105
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 21:35:20

 Berno the reason South Africa dominate procession is because when we get it we score after a couple phases while South Africa hang onto it for awhile awhile getting nowhere against a good defence until they drop it. With the penalty count so one sided of course you are going to dominate procession. It's more important what you do with procession and territory not how much you have. 


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 21:39:31

 Yes Beeno your performance today and in the RC in general suggests there are great times ahead for the Boks [/sarcasm]


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10245
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 21:43:15

Mozart

In essence I think that the main problem today was defence and aimless kicking.   I was not impressed at all by Taute - not only did he tackle. badly he also lost the ball in a turnover won by the All Blacks..   Then there was also some dreadgul perfoinmance by the backline with Jantjies around.  

I am not writing off Goosen - he did make his tackles - but not in a way that the All Blacks could not off load the ball.   I would under no circumstances support a return to Morne Steyn - that would be the worst thing imagineable - but I believe that Taute was very poor today - so they need to find a replacement for him.    Before I make my normal assessment of the players I want to have a seconbd look at the game later tonight.

What I did say before the match is that we have very little chance to win the game - the All Blacks are far too good a team to take on with so many inexperienced players.    The problem was not amongst the forwards - it was the backline that was problematic.   I also said the All Blacks would attack through the channel and they did that with a remarkable degree of success.

I thinkk that we will see some more experiments with players to find the best combinations.   The players who failed to today was to my mind Taute and Jantjies - so they should go back in the que.   However, the EOYT is looming and I would like to see who we can get in line for future selection.   Lucky for us JP Pietersen is back - he showed some real class in the CC today.

Insofar as the backline is concerned I believe that we actually have only four players that is relatively certain that they should be in the team.   They are Habana, Pietersen, De Villiers and Pienaar.   I would not discard Goosen at all - he seems to have injury problems at the moment - but whilst he was on the field the situation was not really bad - it turned septic afterwards.    

That leaves us with the problem at 13 - Taute is not the answer there - I believe his defence is extremely questonable and it is urgent that another player in that position should be identified.   He really was bad in all facets of play - sp before he can be played again he should receive comprehensive coaching in defence.   I have always said Meyer has a serious problem - since he has to replace so many players.    He has no option but to utilize youngsters.   The older ones are either past their sell-by date or injured.

The other player I was not happy with today was Hougaard.   In the last two tests he played on the wing and in both cases he showed nothing.  Saffex will obviously say that he should return to scrummie - but I have serious reservations about him as scrummie.

My full assessment of the players involved will follow after I have looked again at the match.         

 

 


poi-e

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 735
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 21:47:42

 How can you claim the Boks are 10+ points better before the match on one hand then claim you said the Boks didn't have much a chance after the match, be honest Mike...


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5381
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 23:27:11

cmon on my kiwi brothers, take a page from McCaws book, cos a little humilty goes a long way. :o)
Boks are still a good team, but are learning to walk with lots of new babies in the team, a couple of years time and they really will be a big time threat to the All Blacks.
but for now the All Blacks class and experience was just too much for them, i can only wonder what Boks would have been like if they had of had the services of bismarck, jp pieterson and francois steyn 3 huge names not in the boks equation but thats rugby in a nut shell i guess.

thanks again for all the memories All Blacks, goodness knows there are plenty of them and all good, :o)

 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6442
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 06, 2012, 23:41:02

Teams have to be renewed from time to time....but this dumb, dumb idea that you should flood your team with youngsters was always going to lead to this. Why is Taute the best choice at 13....has he knocked on the door and made his case? Nope. He is a big boy and somehow conveys a sense he can handle things....except he can't. He missed crucial tackles, lost the ball and came out of defensive alignment.

 

Don't blame Taute....blame the coach who played him at 13 with so little senior experience, and the naive fans who were calling for his selection


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10245
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 07, 2012, 02:09:26

Mozart

I watched the game again and looked specifically at the tries scored by the All Blacks as well.   Let me symmarize the issue as to the youngsters.    

There is as far as I am concerned nothing wrong with the performance of Goosen.   He tred desperately to tackle Whitelock and in fact wa successful - but Whutelock was near the tryline and manage to score.   Not his mistake that the scoring opportunity took place.   He made all other tackles successfully and up to the time he left the field there was no real problem in evidence in the general play of the backline.   Any idea to bring back Morne Steyn is a feeble joke.

Insofar as Taute is concerned - he was clueless.   The players were warned about aimless kicks and to kick out the ball when releiving kicks are required,  He messed it up completely and the result was an All Black try.  He was alsi largely to blame for the second try - when he missed the tackle on Dagg.   The third one he went out of line and that allowed Smith to score.   Really was the extremely weak link in the backline from a defensive point of view.   In attack he spilled a ball as well.   I thought he had a reasonable game against Australia - but in this case he was extremely poor.   I am afraid that he spoiled his copybook completely and that Meyer will have to look elsewhere for a reliable center.

Now back to Jantjies.   He converted two penalties and missed one that probably was out of his range.   Then he missed a sitter.   He kicked out a ball directly and that cost the Springboks many meters.   The scrummie passed the ball to him on a few occassions and the result was zero - hospital passes at best.   Later in the game the ball was not passed to him at all - effectively cut out from backline play.   I alays said I have my doubts about his selection on natonal level - and the game tonight completely proved my point.

I am not toally unhappu with Ooshuizen though - I do not think he is matchfit as yet and it showed tonight.Have no problem with Etzebeth and also none with Coetzee.

In sumamry I have serious problems with Taute and Jantjies and it is unlikely that either of the two will be selected again.   

Lasrly - the day they select Morne Steyn again as Springbok flyhalf is the day I will stop watching test matches involving the Springboks..   There is no way that he is the answer to problems in the backline,   Goosen did not fail in anything - but Jantjies was bad news.   De Jongh is not of any use in the backline whatsoever - he may be better than Taute in defence but is absolutely useless as an attacking player  - but that does not mean that he is worthy of selection.   I differ from you completely on this issue of Morne Steyn, the great destroyer of backline play, but I agree that Taute is not the answer at center.   .

Let me say immediately that Meyer has no option - but to look for younger players to replace the previous useless  ones.   He is human and will make mistakes like happened in the case of Taute.   Some of the youngsters will fail - others will show enough in early matches to continue with them and some will be successful.   So let the process continue.

 


Papamoa

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 263
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 07, 2012, 03:12:02

 Mike, only had to look at who your boks where lining up against to know they where in for a long night. I don't think I need to list them. Experience was th key with a well organized defensive system and a well thought out attacking ability it was always only going to be a matter of time befor they broke threw. 

In a matter of seconds in fact once they tired the BOKs down and start putting there set plays in motion it was all but over and put the Springboks on the back foot and they where left to play defensive rugby. 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6442
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 07, 2012, 03:20:35

The point guys never get about Morne Steyn at his best, is that guaranteed kicks inside your opponents half have a huge effect on the game.  If Goosen also slotted his kicks, we may have discouraged the ABs. To say he did nothing wrong, when even his kick in front of the poles looked in doubt....is to ignore point scoring as an aspect in the game. It's like saying he played well but three putted five times.....you can't have that.

 

Jantjies showed, just as I thought, that he would add nothing beyond Morne. Those pop passes are suicidal against a team like NZ. He completely failed to dictate play and made several mistakes which you identified.

 

Point is Morne will never be a running flyhalf, and probably not a kicking genius again either. So there is no reason to go back to him. I have never much liked his style, but always thought he was effective. But did either Goosen or Jantjies do enough to add more value.....I don't think so. Did they set the backline on fire, make breaks themselves....throw unlocking passes? Nope! So they have to prove they can, or perhaps Lambie could be an alternative.

 

For the rest Taute was embarrassingly unprepared and unskillful. Coetzee was a zero after he came on as he has been every time against NZ and Oz.. Etzebeth was largely outplayed after the first twenty minutes.

 

So what really happened out there if you are going to be brutally honest? Our match was carried by Habana, Jean, Pienaar, Louw, Vermeulen and Alberts. And even they weren't much good. But the youngsters were completely out of their league.

 

Let there be an end to all this bleating about brilliant young players who just have to arrive to be chosen. Let these guys prove on the field of play they can help win big S15 games and then put them on the bench to learn the hard world of international rugby.


Papamoa

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 263
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 07, 2012, 03:55:38

 Great experience for young Boks just need to put it to good use not in a negative way but positive. A true test is to see them evolve from this test and develop into test warriors of the future. Can't wait to next year good luck Springboks in the future. 


Arthur John

Status: Squad member
Posts: 485
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 07, 2012, 05:51:28

 South African rugby is miles behind the AB's rugby standard.

Lets be honest we only beat the Ozzies because of their injured top players not being available.

I know you will all jump on this and berate me....but just look at the stats for the past four or five years.

Or better still go back all the way to the first test between the AB's and the Boks up to the present and see what I am referring to....

 

Got it!

Great


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10245
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 07, 2012, 22:23:45

Arthur John

I fully agree with you about what you saud as to us being behind the All Blacks - but that does not mean that we should not take acrion to try and correct the deficiency.   I am the first one to admit that we are behind - but I am also the first one to support initiatives to improve the situation.

Improvement will stem from the return of sterile and failed players of the past.   I think improvement will also not happen overnight - but should be implmented over a period - otherwise we might as well fo and sit in the corner and moan and cry perpetually. 


mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 6442
RE: Youngsters abound.....how did that work out for you.
October 07, 2012, 23:15:48

Mike I guarantee you Lambie would have put Whitelock on the deck 2 metres short of the line. It needed a low committed tackle not a wrap around tackle. That was a totally doable tackle.


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